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phimat
August 23rd, 2018, 05:39 AM
Looked for a likely spot in the stickies above, but no one seems to have broached the larger subject.

1. Talk of three years' work to produce tr19 is just guff. Only some more of what WW has the honesty to call the pretty has been added. No work whatsoever on areas like timetabling, sorting the confused setup of the Surveyor/Session editing pages, etc - all of which would have benefited from three years' work, had there been anything like that. (Most of the added pretty is already in use elsewhere, so probably available in pre-packed form, so perhaps an afternoon to install and a day or two to bed down.)

2. Subscription. You are just renting, get used to that fact. You own nothing in return for your money. Also, be sure that within a version or two there will be only a subscription model. As well as this, you will find that there will be a cutoff point beyond which you will not be able to bring forward any assets or routes from previous versions. You will be locked into the one available version, with only the routes and sessions supplied with that version.

That is the business model.

I have non-DRM TANE. I own it, free to use it as I wish. TANE SP3 is good enough, given the alternative that looms for us. Whatever else, I am glad that the Trainz version I end up with is so good.

pware
August 23rd, 2018, 05:44 AM
Phimat, everything is the "thin end" from your point of view.

I have no doubt that before too long we will see your posts complaining about some feature you just discovered in your copy of TS19.

amigacooke
August 23rd, 2018, 06:25 AM
I have non-DRM TANE. I own it, free to use it as I wish. TANE SP3 is good enough, given the alternative that looms for us. Whatever else, I am glad that the Trainz version I end up with is so good.

Is this the first 'last version is better' post?

davies_mike57
August 23rd, 2018, 06:28 AM
Trainz members,

With reference to Phimat's comment:
I did read a previous comment on one of the Trainz Forum topics that the new TRS2019 product does not fully support kuid downloads when using the Content Manager supplied
and that is was best to download certain assets directly from the Trainz Download Station in the form of a CDP file.

Possibly this is also what Trainz member Phimat is also commented on "you will not be able to bring forward any assets or routes from previous versions".
So is it likely that older kuid assets or routes created from versions 1.3 to 3.7 are no longer compatible with the TRS2019 product?

Note on the main DLS page:
Trainz Helper (The "Download with Content Manager" button) is not supported in Trainz A New Era and TRS19.
You can click Manage Content on your game launcher to search and download from the Download Station.

Or will we need to have an updated PEV AssetX program to convert older kuid's to make compatible?

Just curious.
Mike D.

pware
August 23rd, 2018, 07:37 AM
No, from what I have read, you can transfer assets from an earlier version to TS19 via CDP files. From posts in other forums several have already done this with routes they created with TRS2006. Use CM (or its older equivalent) to package the assets into a CDP file and then import them into TR19 CM, OR use the recommended import asset folder method for larger files.

pcas1986
August 23rd, 2018, 07:49 AM
What assets will not download? I imported a TS06 route but that route went via the long path - TS09, TS10, etc.

There are older routes that fail due to format changes. The CRG has several hundred that are impractical to fix.

martinvk
August 23rd, 2018, 08:25 AM
Amazing how wild rumors and idle speculations are presented as established facts. How can anyone on the outside can know how the code was done?
Meanwhile I had no problems bringing my older routes into TRS19 during testing using CDP files or downloading from the DLS.

cascaderailroad
August 23rd, 2018, 09:06 AM
I have non-DRM TANE. I own it, free to use it as I wish. TANE SP3 is good enough, given the alternative that looms for us. Whatever else, I am glad that the Trainz version I end up with is so good.
Just because you have the DRM Free version, it only provides a tick box, so you can work offline (just like pulling out your Ethernet cable, or turning your wireless off), all your N3V DLC DRM controlled payware will still disappear after 30 days or so, as the DRM controlled DLC can no longer be re-authenticated by the N3V DRM servers on a rotating 30 day basis

JCitron
August 23rd, 2018, 11:52 AM
Regarding content, this statement is absurd.

I cloned my T:ANE Data folder and connect TRS2019 to it. After running a lengthy EDR yesterday, I have about 1700 faulty assets, but. And there's that but...

Out of the 1700 so-called faulty assets, 350 of them were obsolete items, which I deleted. There are a ton which have updates available, which I need to download, and there are some which I discovered disappear when viewing errors and warnings. What gets flushed out in the end will be far fewer items than at first blush, and are probably really, really old and should be cleaned out anyway.

Like Paul I imported some older routes into T:ANE. The process wasn't that long and it was a matter of passing them through TS12 first where I didn't even bother to delete missing dependencies, and only saved then exported the route in that version, which imported into T:ANE fine. This is why it's a good idea to keep an older version around even if it isn't used for anything other than converting content and testing. One of the routes I brought in was my original ca. December 2003 or early January 2004 route that I started in TRS2004. The route imported fine, using the method above, but the trackwork and scenery has a lot to be desired, with the trackwork being almost comical, and I've been in the process of cleaning that up over time.

RRSignal
August 23rd, 2018, 09:06 PM
Just because you have the DRM Free version, it only provides a tick box, so you can work offline (just like pulling out your Ethernet cable, or turning your wireless off), all your N3V DLC DRM controlled payware will still disappear after 30 days or so, as the DRM controlled DLC can no longer be re-authenticated by the N3V DRM servers on a rotating 30 day basis

The problem with TRS19 is that this now applies to the entire product, not just the DLC. Including any content you've created and the game itself. There is no "DRM-free" version being offered. So, if for whatever reason TRS19 can't connect to a N3V server every month or so, *EVERYTHING* goes poof.

Not really sure why some here are disputing that the software industry as a whole is heading in the direction of strictly-controlled, subscription-only products. Especially seeing as even most of the big players in the industry don't dispute it.

phimat
August 24th, 2018, 06:06 AM
Hadn't planned coming back to this, but please understand that I said that restrictions on installing older assets etc into the latest version of Trainz would most likely be implemented in the future.

You will no doubt have noted that nev have already ducked the question whether they will introduce a subscription model for the entire game or not. I tell you they will. Otherwise, what is now in operation will not produce the revenue they want - especially once people realise that they are buying nothing at all under this scheme. For instance, what happens after you receive updates for the game itself under the sub scheme should you abandon your sub?

It is remarkable how similar the situation as it has transpired with tr19 is to that of Windows Vista - each tarted-up versions of previous excellent programs. Bill Gates was a superb business strategist who succumbed to that abiding business fantasy that is there such a thing as easy money. He believed that Ms could coast for years on a Vista cash cow. Here we have nev falling also for the delusion that TANE somehow will put them on easy street with tr19.

As for buying tr19: I could not abide the sight of the marketing tat each time I started Trainz. It would contaminate the sim for me.

(btw, we haven't started the discussion about ads in Trainz yet, have we? All those billboards going to waste. Believe me, Trainz is going to be milked, and milked good.)

pware
August 24th, 2018, 06:32 AM
You will no doubt have noted that nev have already ducked the question whether they will introduce a subscription model for the entire game or not. I tell you they will. Otherwise, what is now in operation will not produce the revenue they want

Either your crystal ball is better than mine or your skills at reading the entrails of an owl are superior. Possibly they will, especially if it becomes the standard for the computer gaming industry but we might all be treading water due to climate change by then. Speculation is interesting but it must not be confused with fact.


... what happens after you receive updates for the game itself under the sub scheme should you abandon your sub?

This has been covered repeatedly in the various TS19 FAQ and related forums. If you cancel or do not renew your Gold subscription (the only one that receives the new feature updates) then the program will be put into "suspended mode" with all its updates along with your DLC downloads and FCT (if you don't already have one). If you later renew your subscription then all access, including the program updates, is restored and you will continue to get the updates.


It is remarkable how similar the situation as it has transpired with tr19 is to that of Windows Vista - ... Here we have nev falling also for the delusion that TANE somehow will put them on easy street with tr19.

Sorry, I just do not see the analogy.


All those billboards going to waste. Believe me, Trainz is going to be milked, and milked good.)

And good luck to them if they do. No doubt you don't watch any "free to air" TV shows because of the ads that pay the TV station bills, or ride on trains or buses that carry any advertising.

RRSignal
August 24th, 2018, 06:48 PM
If what the rest of the software industry is a guide, N3V will certainly try to move to a subscription-only model.

<sarcasm>But, hey, I'm just s-s-s-speculating, just like I was accused of doing on these forums 6-7 years ago when I predicted N3V would try a subscription model eventually. Silly me for not realizing that foamers know way more about the tech industry than those of us with 20+ years working in it. </sarcasm>

amigacooke
August 24th, 2018, 07:20 PM
If what the rest of the software industry is a guide, N3V will certainly try to move to a subscription-only model.

They have said they do not plan to, but you may be right. I'm not sure how that will help, but you may be right.

norfolksouthern37
August 24th, 2018, 07:34 PM
YAY

This thread/topic again! Time to get some popcorn brb.

Tony_Hilliam
August 24th, 2018, 07:37 PM
Speculation and conjuring up "facts" with no evidence whatsover is something forums are renowned for. Whatever response we make will be manipulated (and even this one will be twisted into something it isn't).

martinvk
August 24th, 2018, 08:08 PM
but you've got to give the trolls something to do or they'll wither away.

RRSignal
August 24th, 2018, 08:20 PM
And we know marketers never lie, and products never fail to deliver!

pware
August 24th, 2018, 08:41 PM
... and everything you read on the Internet is the "truth" or "fake news" - take your pick!

paulhobbs
August 24th, 2018, 11:10 PM
Speculation and conjuring up "facts" with no evidence whatsover is something forums are renowned for. Whatever response we make will be manipulated (and even this one will be twisted into something it isn't).i think they are talking about alternative facts.

Paul

amigacooke
August 25th, 2018, 01:39 AM
RRSignal has been around long enough and produced enough content to be spared the troll label I think.

I think his arguments for a DRM free version are entirely valid. Trainz versions used to be produced DRM free as a matter of course. Can't think why this request is being viewed as trolling.

In the CoC it says we are to respect others views, I see scant respect here.

martinvk
August 25th, 2018, 04:18 AM
The troll inference was in response to Tony's comment on
Speculation and conjuring up "facts" with no evidence whatsover and not directed at a specifically named person. As a holder of of DRM free versions in the past, I am interested in and look forward to continuing down that track too and so support any requests for them. If there was any disrespect, it was not intentional and I apologize.

pcas1986
August 25th, 2018, 04:40 AM
If we didn't grumble "about the good old versions" every time a new version comes out then the forums wouldn't be the same.

I have several programs/tools/utilities/editors/etc that are on a subscription basis. My new Trainz gold membership is almost the cheapest of the lot and will be the one I use the most. :)

FootplatePhil
August 25th, 2018, 04:58 AM
If we didn't grumble "about the good old versions" every time a new version comes out then the forums wouldn't be the same.

..

as you say, EVERY new version!!

My experience is that every new version has brought incremental improvements. Maybe not as mind blowing as the some of the hype would have us believe (marketing IS about marketing), but always worthwhile. As a (now retired) software developer I have a lot of respect for what Auran and NV3 have delivered over many years, in a very tight market. And I congratulate Tony on his contribution.

Phil

(edit: thanks also to Windwalkr, and the rest of the team)

Tony_Hilliam
August 26th, 2018, 09:52 PM
Thanks FootplatePhil - we try to "increment" as much as possible each release. Compared to previous launches, our Early Access version has been pretty smooth sailing (sorry for the mixed metaphor :).

phimat
August 27th, 2018, 05:37 AM
Well, offering a non-DRM version for those who want it would certainly go a long away to easing the situation. It would demonstrate 1. that nev is catering for all its customers, and 2. weaken the suspicion that Tr is becoming just a cash cow. Need to remember how valuable goodwill can be.

FootplatePhil
August 27th, 2018, 06:28 AM
Well, offering a non-DRM version for those who want it would certainly go a long away to easing the situation. It would demonstrate 1. that nev is catering for all its customers, and 2. weaken the suspicion that Tr is becoming just a cash cow. Need to remember how valuable goodwill can be.

Have they said they will not be offering that on general release ? I haven't seen that in any announcements. So far its mostly been about this new (and on the response evidence, very confusing) early access thing.

Trainz as a cash cow? Funniest thing I've read today.

Phil (waiting patiently for more details about general release)

WindWalkr
August 27th, 2018, 06:53 AM
Trainz as a cash cow? Funniest thing I've read today.

We live in hope ;p

chris