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n3vpolsen
April 10th, 2018, 07:19 PM
With new versions of Trainz on the way, we're keen to enlist more content creators in the Trainz Content Creation Program (TCCP) (https://www.trainzportal.com/news/view/trainz-content-creator-program-now-online), where you can earn extra money for your Trainz creations.

We are looking for model, small and large routes as well as locos and rolling stock. We are especially interested in more British and Euro content creators.

If you are interested in becoming part of TCCP or know of a great content development individual or team out there who would be, please let us know.

davesnow
April 11th, 2018, 08:47 AM
If you guys hadn't ditched your Trainz Asset Creation Studio (Gmax) I'd be there right with you.

hiawathamr
April 11th, 2018, 08:52 AM
I have some UK sessions if they count - you have access to them through the program ;)

Laurinlaki
April 11th, 2018, 09:23 AM
While I as a german route and session creator am very interested on the topic, I'm concerned that if theres problems with DLS content their might fall back onto me.

To be more exact: the majority of all german assets on the DLS has logos and things that are okay to be used as they are freely downloadable and accessible (which they are through the DLS), but large license fees would apply if they were behind a paywall. I'm not enough of a legal expert to be sure wether the "content is available for free through the DLS, my sessions only reference the content and its offered to be bundled with the product" is enough or not. While it is unknown if anybody will ever have a problem with content being bundled with a payware product that is available for free anyways, I will only continue thinking about submitting anything to the TCCP if it's ensured that if problems with the referenced and bundled content occur in a legal way, I'm not responsible for it as I neither created or uploaded that referenced content to the DLS. Instead the people who did upload it agreed for it to become build in content, possibly making it part of payware (the game itself) while it is still freeware content.

I personally think that the best option would be to really just have the actual stuff you paid for in the payware download itself and a link to a new page saying "to play this you also need freeware content xyz which you can download here", as long as that page is accessible without purchasing the payware it should itself remain freeware without issues as the user could've downloaded the package without purchase of the payware assets (the route and/or the sessions).

I'm not alone with these concerns as of looking around the german trainz community where people would probably create payware content, but the unknown legal state of using freeware DLS content with trademarked logos on the routes or sessions holds them back from doing so.

I also heard rumours that passenger sessions are not able to make it onto the TCCP (I'm not talking of very cheap drive from A to B sessions, but Sessions with proper AI traffic and announcements) which I'm personally really missing from Trainz at this moment, is that true?


Greets, Mika

Vern
April 11th, 2018, 09:26 AM
You are welcome to use any of my recent routes uploaded to the DLS, doctored as necessary.

Depending on timescales I might also be able to put together a route towards the project, though would need more information as regards the sort of thing being looked for. Being realistic I would probably be looking at doing an upscaled miniature or similar railway (similar to my Water Of Coate route), given my full time work commitments. Having been a critic of the content supplied by default in TANE it is only fair I offer to make a positive contribution.

Further discussion of the detail probably best via PM initially then email, so if you are interested drop me a line or in the meantime I'll take a look at the TCCP page.

Vern
April 11th, 2018, 10:42 AM
Good points Laurinlaki. Just because an item is on the DLS and the attendant transfer of ownership does not necessarily remove any child copyright issues.

An example for the US creators might be anything with Union Pacific (or their predecessor companies) who I understand have once again become very strict about any use of their corporate logos or identities. I think we will need some guidance on this, possibly off the public forum. There is a wealth of material on the DLS but in addition to ensuring a route for "Next" only uses the very best items, we need to ensure it will not breach any copyright. There are also many items (the Ultra range from McGuirrel come to mind) where the licensing prohibits use as part of payware - which presumably also extends to a new version of the core product. This may be due to the use of textures etc. from a site which specifically precludes re-use for profit.

Laurinlaki
April 11th, 2018, 01:17 PM
Well the issue is that assets which don't allow that shouldn't be on the DLS to begin with, as the author agreed to it being packaged as either build-in or with DLC when uploading.

Because of that I only see licenses like that as a "please be nice and don't package that as buildin/DLC" because really they have agreed to that usage. Knowingly, I won't add assets like that to a DLC route and make someone unhappy, but reading through licenses of all well over 1000 Assets can't and shouldn't be it. The content is on the DLS and the author should ensure its okay for the content to be there, and sure enough, some of that content has made it to be build in despite a license like that, because it really doesn't seem to matter.

However, enforcing content to be usable for these cases on the DLS would not only require removal of quite a lot of nice content, but also scare away new content creators and might get them to rather just have their content on their own weebly site because of "inhumane DLS terms", and off we go to a search for missing dependencies on a scale way larger than before.

On the other hand, this is part of the reason why we don't have a lot of DLC content compared to *cough* another sim *cough*. I'm not suggesting that I want Trainz to become another DLC sim where every DLC itself requires 3 others to work and while they only cost 5€ each you'll end up paying 50€ just to play one route in a fun way. But really no one can be good at route construction, texturing, making trains and objects all at once while also keeping all brand holders happy and still make revenue. And working in teams is also an issue because it would require prices to be rather high for the DLC content to pay off everyone who worked on it, thus we need to rely on referencing freeware content for sessions and routes and we need to be able to rely on that we are not responsible if issues occur with a piece of content, because we just referenced the objects kuid in our work but never made the object itself payware. I can replace objects which needed to be removed from the DLS due to legal issues as fast as possible considering I also have a real life. But can I afford paying off everything caused by the legal issues? Can I afford a lawyer to defend my position of not having the object itself made payware? No.

So yea, we need some clear guidelines on what content to include and what not and how we are liable for content we just reference but not really have to do anything with (as the content creators program terms last time I checked only make you liable for the content you submit to the program, so the things I made myself, which makes sense, since those are effectively the payware the users buy and not the referenced objects)


Greets, Mika

MF01
April 11th, 2018, 01:21 PM
The problem is that a lot of assets that are free will become payware so we're unable then to modify em

Vern
April 11th, 2018, 01:33 PM
One solution if we get enough people in a pool to create Next/TRS2018 content and enough of them are 3D modellers, to create a selection of items for inclusion in the new routes.

As regards referencing I would suggest as this is aimed at inclusion in the base product all the assets and routes will be packaged with the distributable, whether DVD, N3V direct purchase or from Steam. It would not be realistic to expect people buying a complete product - possibly without DLS FCT access, to then spend time and effort obtaining separately the assets needed to run the product they purchased.

That also raises the issue that our content offerings will need to be optimised both in terms of file size (no 800Mb gnd files) and the size of the assets used - the distributable would become massive if across (say) the 6 or 7 routes there were 100 different tree types all coming in at 70Mb each. Which again is where dedicated asset production might help in controlling this aspect in addition to introducing content not seen before.

Laurinlaki
April 11th, 2018, 01:48 PM
Past has shown that, sadly, teamwork is always a problem, because obviously, everybody wants "their thing" to be in focus.
The results of that were that a lot of routes ended up being fictional compromises, trying to fit as much diversity for every team member into a fictional route as possible. The most prominent example is the Schwäninger Land route, which is an amazing teamwork route, but it is fictional and shows the compromise very well, since it contains a old mainline, a high speed line, large yards, lots of industries, a short and unfinished tram line and a single track diesel line, which while its nice and interesting to play, is still fictional and might also feel like "a bit too much" to some players.

I feel like if we were to make a teamwork route, a lot of coordination would be needed, it should be a realistic route, and that brings us to another problem, what country should it be based in? It will be hard to find a good team to work on that.

And to the question of downloading some required content seperately, well, its not good practice but quite a few large games have done that in the past, that besides the actual game you also need a multiple gigabytes "update" before you can even play at all, so I mean it could be done, but it wouldn't be a really good solution.

Greets, Mika

KingConrail76
April 11th, 2018, 02:08 PM
Summary of why Content Creators are leaving Trainz: N3V's policy on "Rights" and "Ownership".

You can not spend YEARS profiting from people's free labor, and not expect a backlash effect, just as you can not have a business model that reflects a clear message of "Profits over Loyalty".

Patch your existing products to completion, before creating a new profit generator, or you'll keep losing Customers, as well as Creators.

TS2010 - Unfinished.
TS12 - Unfinished.
TANE - Unfinished.
What can be heard at an N3V board meeting? "But hey, lets just abandon all those Customers and create a new product that we'll never finish, that will generate new income."

Vern
April 11th, 2018, 03:06 PM
I wasn't necessarily suggesting "group" projects per se, been there done that years ago with MSTS and it doesn't usually play or end well. What I meant was more the loose association of interested parties that N3V can put together. Makes sense if you have a foliage guy, he does a set of trees, bushes and grasses which can be made available to the route builders. Ditto a terrain texture guy. I'm a route builder, not a lead kind of guy and tend to work at my own funky pace.

The other big unknown here and Mr. Olsen (is it Paul?) didn't really elaborate on what tools we will be working from to achieve the new content. Previous new releases of Trainz have always suffered to some extent that the content has been made in the previous or even earlier version. So are we building routes in the final or latest version of TANE or will we get (under NDA if necessary) advance working copy of the enhanced route building which may be in TRS2018. Lots of questions which need to be clarified.

Another factor will be locomotive and rolling stock and there is an element of chicken and egg here. Until the likely route manifest is known, the train builders won't have an idea what to actually build. Little point me doing a short LMS style branch line or expanded miniature railway if there aren't going to be any up to date LMS locomotives and coaches to run on it.

And one more thing (starting to sound like Lt. Columbo here), probably worth N3V setting up a private area where rational and practical discussion by those taking part can ensue, free from excessive "salt".

KingConrail76
April 11th, 2018, 04:55 PM
And one more thing (starting to sound like Lt. Columbo here), probably worth N3V setting up a private area where rational and practical discussion by those taking part can ensue, free from excessive "salt".

I find that comment highly offensive, bordering on a CoC violation for disparaging another user's relevant opinion.

If having a conversation involving facts of the matter, is considered "being salty"... Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but you have no right to belittle others because you disagree.

pware
April 11th, 2018, 05:57 PM
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but you have no right to belittle others because you disagree.

But belittling the opinion of another is exactly what you just did by calling his opinion "offensive".

Lets leave this thread for a discussion about new content for the NEXT generation of Trainz, not a rehash of old arguments about perceived past failings. There are plenty of other threads where you can post on that issue. While you are perfectly entitled to your opinions, others are perfectly entitled to have opposing opinions.

ZecMurphy
April 11th, 2018, 09:21 PM
Good Afternoon All
All content on the Download Station requires that the uploader give N3V a license to use the uploaded content in commercial products ( new releases of Trainz, DLC packs, and similar). This requirement has been in the DLS upload agreement since at least 2003 (around when I first read it). As such, there shouldn't be an issue with using any DLS content in submissions.

Any licenses in config files are overridden by the EULA for the DLS, as any uploader MUST agree to this to upload the content. As such it would still be permissible for content where the license 'prohibits' payware to be used in a DLC package or built-in content released by N3V.


In regards to concerns about DLS content becoming 'payware', content included in DLC packs that is from the DLS still remains on the Download Station. The copy of the asset included in the DLC pack will be handled the same as other assets in the DLC pack, however the original can still be downloaded as a cdp file from the DLS if required. An alternative is simply to have a second install of TANE that you can use to obtain the DLS asset, and then clone and import into your main TANE installation to then modify. Such an install is also useful for checking content you intend to release to see what assets may not be on the DLS (particularly if you are creating your own content that is used by that asset!).

Regards

Tony_Hilliam
April 11th, 2018, 10:23 PM
If you guys hadn't ditched your Trainz Asset Creation Studio (Gmax) I'd be there right with you.
Correcton, Discreet abandoned gmax.
We chose not to support an unsupported modelling tool in future Trainz.
We now support fbx which allows most modelling tools to be used.

n3vpolsen
April 11th, 2018, 10:39 PM
If you guys hadn't ditched your Trainz Asset Creation Studio (Gmax) I'd be there right with you.

Hi Dave, would you consider using (learning?) blender if a compilation of tutorials and useful links were on offer for the free 3D modelling software?

n3vpolsen
April 11th, 2018, 10:44 PM
I also heard rumours that passenger sessions are not able to make it onto the TCCP (I'm not talking of very cheap drive from A to B sessions, but Sessions with proper AI traffic and announcements) which I'm personally really missing from Trainz at this moment, is that true?
Certainly not the case. Any sessions can be submitted to TCCP. If you create a session for a route, we simply advise the user that they must own the route the session(s) are made for.

n3vpolsen
April 11th, 2018, 10:46 PM
You are welcome to use any of my recent routes uploaded to the DLS, doctored as necessary.

Depending on timescales I might also be able to put together a route towards the project, though would need more information as regards the sort of thing being looked for. Being realistic I would probably be looking at doing an upscaled miniature or similar railway (similar to my Water Of Coate route), given my full time work commitments. Having been a critic of the content supplied by default in TANE it is only fair I offer to make a positive contribution.

Further discussion of the detail probably best via PM initially then email, so if you are interested drop me a line or in the meantime I'll take a look at the TCCP page.
Definitely interested to talk more. Email contentcreators[AT]n3vgames[DOT]com with more info. Currently we have our builtin content sorted for the next release but DLC for both TANE and the next release is always open.

n3vpolsen
April 11th, 2018, 10:51 PM
The problem is that a lot of assets that are free will become payware so we're unable then to modify em
Any assets from the DLS are not marked as payware in DLC packages.

n3vpolsen
April 11th, 2018, 10:53 PM
teamwork
Sounds like something "Multiplayer Surveyor" would be come in handy for :)

n3vpolsen
April 11th, 2018, 10:58 PM
The other big unknown here and Mr. Olsen (is it Paul?) didn't really elaborate on what tools we will be working from to achieve the new content. Previous new releases of Trainz have always suffered to some extent that the content has been made in the previous or even earlier version. So are we building routes in the final or latest version of TANE or will we get (under NDA if necessary) advance working copy of the enhanced route building which may be in TRS2018. Lots of questions which need to be clarified.
We try our very best to keep backwards compatibility between all builds so use whatever version you want to build your routes, sessions, locos, rolling stock ...etc. We currently package up DLC using the latest Trainz code (this means Trainz NEXT) but as a general rule if your content works in the current live version (TANE SP2) then you should be fine to send it our way.

Ernest2d6
April 12th, 2018, 12:56 AM
A game like Trainz needs to just build one version of Trainz, and it should be free to play. Find another way to make money with it. For example make it a trading game and sell currency to play the game. Currency could be converted to buy content, N3V could rent portals that would connect players together. You could tax industries that use a new production track or some other way to sink the currency out. Resources could be traded with another player to make product to be traded to make cargo to be shipped to N3V as containers for a return of currency. But over all for a full time player an infusion of cash of $10 to $20 a month to run a railroad. (cost of one Starbucks cappuccino)
I'm sure other players could think of other ways to make it work and additional income stream for N3V like selling skins, or there own content for playing online.;)

amigacooke
April 12th, 2018, 01:21 AM
N3V have suddenly remembered they need to encourage content creators? Must be a new version of Trainz on the way.

gawpo50
April 12th, 2018, 01:22 AM
A game like Trainz needs to just build one version of Trainz, and it should be free to play. Find another way to make money with it. For example make it a trading game and sell currency to play the game. Currency could be converted to buy content, N3V could rent portals that would connect players together. You could tax industries that use a new production track or some other way to sink the currency out. Resources could be traded with another player to make product to be traded to make cargo to be shipped to N3V as containers for a return of currency. But over all for a full time player an infusion of cash of $10 to $20 a month to run a railroad. (cost of one Starbucks cappuccino)
I'm sure other players could think of other ways to make it work and additional income stream for N3V like selling skins, or there own content for playing online.;)

You mean like Open Source it....really.......

Vern
April 12th, 2018, 01:23 AM
I find that comment highly offensive, bordering on a CoC violation for disparaging another user's relevant opinion.

If having a conversation involving facts of the matter, is considered "being salty"... Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but you have no right to belittle others because you disagree.

No offence intended and, having seen the subsequent response from Mr Olsen that this is more an exercise to "bank" future content for payware use rather than get the community involved in putting together a really good route pack in NEXT, I have some sympathy with your views. Contributing a route which will just sit on the shelf if/until needed was not how I read the OP, though not entirely ruling it out.

The copyright situation is also still something of a muddle. What are they saying, if something has made it on the DLS regardless of whether it is plastered in UP logos or textured with artwork from a "no commercial use" site, fine for a route builder to include in a project that may eventually be sold for profit? Who cops the lawsuit if UP or Mayang (if they still exist) turn round and issue a cease or desist or actually sue - N3V, the route builder or the original asset maker?

amigacooke
April 12th, 2018, 01:37 AM
N3V have potential British content to the TANE standard that they have been sitting on for months. If N3V are unable to process the Potteries Loop Line within a reasonable time frame, why are they appealing for more content?

Vern
April 12th, 2018, 02:04 AM
N3V have potential British content to the TANE standard that they have been sitting on for months. If N3V are unable to process the Potteries Loop Line within a reasonable time frame, why are they appealing for more content?

At least I know not to suddenly abandon the project(s) I'm currently working on and rush off to produce something for this campaign though as noted above, not ruling it out for the future. But as I indicated above, why build with TANE when we should be looking to produce routes to the higher standard of NEXT, with its hairy grass texture et al. o7 ;)


[Find another way to make money with it. For example make it a trading game and sell currency to play the game.

Pay to play or subscription... Re-arrange the following word - never. If N3V ever went down that business model that would end my involvement with the franchise, period.

pcas1986
April 12th, 2018, 03:29 AM
No offence intended and, having seen the subsequent response from Mr Olsen that this is more an exercise to "bank" future content for payware use rather than get the community involved in putting together a really good route pack in NEXT, I have some sympathy with your views. Contributing a route which will just sit on the shelf if/until needed was not how I read the OP, though not entirely ruling it out. ...

There's nothing "wrong" about asking for content creators to become part of the TCCP and earn a little pocket money on the side. That may encourage younger, and not so young (:hehe:) members, to think about joining. I think that was part of the reason why the TrainzDev version was released to a much wider audience than the regular TrainzDev community. There is a lot of exciting stuff in there and I've seen lots of interest in the new CC chat forum.

There are several 3D modellers who are actively creating, or recreating, models for Trainz Next/TRS/18/19 because they want to and I expect much of that will be freeware. That content will have to "sit on the shelf" until it's release.

pware
April 12th, 2018, 07:02 AM
Pay to play or subscription... Re-arrange the following word - never. If N3V ever went down that business model that would end my involvement with the franchise, period.

You would not be alone there but the only time I saw the "s" word ("subscription") mentioned in these forums was when NEXT (as it was then called) was first announced.

There was the possibility of the Multiplayer Surveyor option being on a "pay-as-you-use-it basis" which would revert to single user Surveyor when you did not need need to use it. I suspect that this was a "fishing expedition" to gauge the reaction - like the old Army technique of running something up the flagpole to see if anyone saluted. While many objected to the idea of the whole of NEXT being on a subscription basis, there were some who said that they would not object to a subscription Multiplayer Surveyor. Others pointed out that subscription gaming, in some form or another, was now becoming common place on mobile platforms and was starting to appear on desktop platforms as well for the shrinking number of new games that are appearing for desktops.

I have not heard anything on the subject since.

Laurinlaki
April 12th, 2018, 09:35 AM
The copyright situation is also still something of a muddle. What are they saying, if something has made it on the DLS regardless of whether it is plastered in UP logos or textured with artwork from a "no commercial use" site, fine for a route builder to include in a project that may eventually be sold for profit? Who cops the lawsuit if UP or Mayang (if they still exist) turn round and issue a cease or desist or actually sue - N3V, the route builder or the original asset maker?

Thats exactly my problem as well. It wouldn't be good for any of the associated parties.
Seems like in the past Trainz more or less got away with it, for example Trainz 2007 (German release of Trainz 2006) included countless items from the DLS with protected logos or simmilar seemingly without a license for commercial usage. There weren't any problems with it, but its still important to know what if? for the future.

Its the biggest reason I'm holding back not only with the creation of new stuff but also I still have some unreleased content mostly waiting for a clear answer on the topic.


Greets, Mika

sumitsingh
April 12th, 2018, 01:40 PM
I think I can make some content for Indian Railways, but since the OP says -

We are especially interested in more British and Euro content creators.
So I am out. :sleep:

Vern
April 12th, 2018, 02:16 PM
I think I can make some content for Indian Railways, but since the OP says -

So I am out. :sleep:

Hopefully that was just a generic sentiment from the OP. After all Trainz is supposedly a global sim and has embraced content from around the world. There is huge scope for routes and motive power not just from India but Pakistan (Khyber Pass route!), Burma/Myanmar, Thailand, Korea etc. Or the largely untapped continent of South America!

sumitsingh
April 12th, 2018, 04:26 PM
Most ( Almost, all the sim either RW, TSW, TANE, they all are restricted to USA, UK, Germany) so it looks like we are living on other planet.
But once the sim comes out, I can start making content then.:)
In all these years, I have collected relevant information from my country railways including all drawings, reference photographs.
If any one need just PM me.

pware
April 12th, 2018, 05:09 PM
I think I can make some content for Indian Railways, but since the OP says -

So I am out. :sleep:

I would recommend that you go ahead and offer your Indian Railways content. Just because they are "especially interested" in British and Euro content... does not mean "exclusively interested". I would have thought that there was already enough British and Euro stuff and not enough from regions outside of USA, Europe (inc UK while it is still part of Europe) and Australia.

amigacooke
April 12th, 2018, 06:10 PM
Europe (inc UK while it is still part of Europe)

The UK will continue to be part of Europe regardless, it may not continue to be part of the European Union.

n3vpolsen
April 12th, 2018, 09:13 PM
N3V have suddenly remembered they need to encourage content creators? Must be a new version of Trainz on the way.

We have the content sorted for the next version of Trainz so we are not after builtin content. Keen to see what others are working on so we can help them prepare it for sale through DLC or get it up on the DLS. We see many assets that are good but with a few little tweaks and tricks the content could really pop.

For any creators who haven't seen we and a lot of the community are on Discord (Live Chat) now ...the list of creators is building in the chat group and it's good to see some creative juices flowing:
http://www.trainzportal.com/blog/view/content-creator-live-chat

We are here to help advance your content, be it paid or free.

n3vpolsen
April 12th, 2018, 09:17 PM
No offence intended and, having seen the subsequent response from Mr Olsen that this is more an exercise to "bank" future content for payware use rather than get the community involved in putting together a really good route pack in NEXT
Definitely not. Like I said above... if you're selling your content, great. If you're making it for the DLS, also great.

What are you working on and how can we help get it polished and out to the community?

n3vpolsen
April 12th, 2018, 09:23 PM
N3V have potential British content to the TANE standard that they have been sitting on for months. If N3V are unable to process the Potteries Loop Line within a reasonable time frame, why are they appealing for more content?

Potteries Loop Line is looking really good and performance is running really well now. It takes time to get things right and the creators of this fantastic content have been great with communicating back and forth with us about tweaks to get it to the stage it is at. Big thumbs up to this content team as the (massive amount of) sessions alone for this fantastic route are amazing... well done.

n3vpolsen
April 12th, 2018, 09:28 PM
I think I can make some content for Indian Railways, but since the OP says -

So I am out. :sleep:

Didn't mean to sounds like all other content gets a back seat. US and Euro content is popular amongst the community (well all content is really :)) but were interested to see if anyone has anything coming up in that area. Very keen to see all new content that creators are working on.

ktain.ny
April 12th, 2018, 10:02 PM
I reskinned a sign once, looks pretty good.

Im thinking n3v gives me liked 10 grand and Ill think about letting them use my sign in a future route.

gawpo50
April 12th, 2018, 11:36 PM
I reskinned a sign once, looks pretty good.

Im thinking n3v gives me liked 10 grand and Ill think about letting them use my sign in a future route.


:hehe::hehe::hehe::hehe::hehe::hehe::hehe::hehe:.. ..you jest surely

amigacooke
April 13th, 2018, 12:33 AM
We have the content sorted for the next version of Trainz so we are not after builtin content. Keen to see what others are working on so we can help them prepare it for sale through DLC or get it up on the DLS. We see many assets that are good but with a few little tweaks and tricks the content could really pop.

For any creators who haven't seen we and a lot of the community are on Discord (Live Chat) now ...the list of creators is building in the chat group and it's good to see some creative juices flowing:
http://www.trainzportal.com/blog/view/content-creator-live-chat

We are here to help advance your content, be it paid or free.

Ah, so live chat is back. All sounds like good news.

PWeiser
April 13th, 2018, 09:04 AM
If you would like new content, especially for niche markets, may I respectfully suggest that you resume accepting content written in legacy versions (for DLS)? It's a lot easier, I would hazzard, to update to whatever the current build is this morning than to do the research and creative work to create new content. Or anyway, the skills and interests necessary are more widely distributed.

Just a suggestion.

Tony_Hilliam
April 13th, 2018, 04:17 PM
We recognize that the skills required to create the next generation of content are higher than 15 years agao and that's why we're devoting more time to assisting content creators to understand the processes. Once you've learnt the process, it is really worth the effort once you see the higher quality results in-game.

Regarding all the legal talk, so that you know we're not ignoring you, we're awaiting our own legal advice as to what we can and cannot say to you all about copyright issues. Stay tuned...

PWeiser
April 13th, 2018, 06:04 PM
We recognize that the skills required to create the next generation of content are higher than 15 years agao and that's why we're devoting more time to assisting content creators to understand the processes. Once you've learnt the process, it is really worth the effort once you see the higher quality results in-game.

Regarding all the legal talk, so that you know we're not ignoring you, we're awaiting our own legal advice as to what we can and cannot say to you all about copyright issues. Stay tuned...

Thanks for your courteous response - I can understand exactly where you're coming from on this.

Vern
April 14th, 2018, 01:57 AM
Looks like Russian routes might be off the menu as the ignition spark for WW III has just kicked off in the Middle East...

Tony_Hilliam
May 2nd, 2018, 06:31 PM
To tidy up come of the concerns raised earlier in this thread, here is some non-legal advice (since we're not lawyers, and getting two lawyers to agree on anything is difficult at best):

Our lawyers have suggested that we don't provide legal advice to our customers. If you want to use any brand names or brand images in your components and you’re not sure whether or not you’re legally allowed to, you should ask the brand owner for permission. If you have permission from the correct person, and you only use the relevant brand within the permission you were given, it is unlikely that you will have any issues in relation to your use of that brand.

poolboy
May 2nd, 2018, 07:20 PM
Hi Tony,

I have real concerns about nv3 games coming along and turning freware into installed payware.

pware
May 2nd, 2018, 09:18 PM
I have real concerns about nv3 games coming along and turning freware into installed payware.

Could you give a specific example of what you mean?

Anything uploaded to the DLS is always available (baring any copyright violations) for any registered Trainz user to download as freeware. When you upload your content to the DLS you are "signing" an agreement with N3V that your work may be included in any payware release that they may decide to make. This has always been the case since the DLS started. Anyone who does not want to agree to this condition is not forced to upload their work to the DLS - there are other 3rd party web sites they can use (with their own conditions) or they can create their own web site as some Trainzers have done.

To me this means that if you create and upload something like a scenery or a rolling stock asset to the DLS then that asset can be included (referenced) in the content released with any DLC routes or sessions but the asset is still on the DLS and is still available for anyone else to use independent of them purchasing the DLC route/session. In fact most (all??) of the DLC routes include assets that are found on the DLS.

The DLC also contains routes, sessions and other payware assets (mostly locos and rolling stock items) that have been specifically created by users for the DLC. Anyone, as far as I know, can approach N3V and offer their content for distribution on the DLC, in fact N3V encourage this.

I have never had a problem with this and the DLS is the only place where I upload any of my content. I have no idea if N3V have ever referenced any of my scenery or loco content (all reskins and/or mods made with full approval from the original creators) in any of their DLC assets, and they are perfectly entitled to do so.

SailorDan
May 2nd, 2018, 09:33 PM
Could you give a specific example of what you mean?
I think the issue is that when a freeware item is included in a payware route it becomes a payware item. I have never purchased any payware so I don't know how it works, but I guess that the payware version of an asset overwrites any freeware version already installed. That means that the user can never upload any routes that include those items to the DLS, even though the assets are freeware and are already on the DLS. The solution, of course, is to not package the freeware items with the payware routes, so that those who purchase the payware need to download the freeware components from the DLS instead of having them in the payware package.

pware
May 2nd, 2018, 09:45 PM
The solution, of course, is to not package the freeware items with the payware routes, so that those who purchase the payware need to download the freeware components from the DLS instead of having them in the payware package.

I was under the impression that that was how it worked. A route (freeware or payware) "references" any DLS content but does not include it in the package, but I could be mistaken.

MF01
May 2nd, 2018, 09:48 PM
I have a lot of items that were free ( from the DLS ) that became payware when I purshased some routes from the Store and it’s annoying if I want to edit them ( the same for dependencies )

SailorDan
May 2nd, 2018, 10:12 PM
I was under the impression that that was how it worked. A route (freeware or payware) "references" any DLS content but does not include it in the package, but I could be mistaken.
That's how it works for routes on the DLS. But payware routes are the complete package, not just references. And therein lies the problem.

pware
May 2nd, 2018, 10:44 PM
I just checked a payware (DLC) route that I have, Coal Country.

It (the route) has, according to CM, 627 assets broken down as follows:-

437 assets built-in or base
7 installed from DLS
183 installed, payware - I did a random sample of these and they were all shared with at least two DLC route/session assets or built-in routes/sessions.

It is a similar story with Kickstarter Country, ECML Kings Cross - Edinburgh (which topped the DLS count with 99 assets), C&O Hilton Division, Warwick - Wallangarra and Healesville 1913-1920 (which had the lowest DLS count with just 5 assets).

SailorDan
May 2nd, 2018, 11:26 PM
I just checked a payware (DLC) route that I have, Coal Country.
The search that is relevant is Payware+Installed+On Download Station. That will list the items with a potentially inconsistent status. I think you will need to check them on a different system because I suspect that installed payware will not download from the DLS (although if you could figure out how to do that it would be a way to resolve the problem).

pware
May 2nd, 2018, 11:47 PM
OK, I just tried that - Payware+Installed+On Download Station

CM found 49 items out of 1202 Payware+Installed items I have (4%). None of these 49 items can, it seems, be deleted from my system. I downloaded via FTP one such item from the web based DLS but it would not install because, obviously, an asset with the same kuid number was already installed.

I then opened the asset, edited config.txt to remove the "privileged" tag but it would not submit as I was not "authorised" to do so.

I can see that this could be a problem but at 4% of my installed payware assets and a minuscule % of my over 400000 installed assets, it is not one that I will be losing any sleep over.

Tony_Hilliam
May 3rd, 2018, 12:33 AM
As far as I know, any item that is on the DLS shouldn't be marked payware. It is possible that some things have sliped through the net, perhaps due to the timing of it being uploaded to the DLS for example.

Also note that every "featured" payware item (e.g. routes, locos, sessions) have a "stub" on the DLS that isn't downloadable but is required for our build process, so the filter Payware+Installed+On Download Station isn't 100% accurate.

I have almost everything installed and there look to be about 100 items affected.

There is a task in our ever expanding "to-do" list to check these out and to make sure that the incorrect privileges are removed.

SailorDan
May 3rd, 2018, 01:02 AM
[QUOTE=Tony_Hilliam;1673142]There is a task in our ever expanding "to-do" list to check these out and to make sure that the incorrect privileges are removed./QUOTE]
I presume you mean '... removed from the user's local copy of the asset'. The problem isn't that it's marked as payware on the DLS - the problem is that it's marked as payware on the user's system when it is not marked as payware on the DLS.

pware
May 3rd, 2018, 01:03 AM
Tony, thank you for clearing that up.

Laurinlaki
May 13th, 2018, 04:40 AM
To tidy up come of the concerns raised earlier in this thread, here is some non-legal advice (since we're not lawyers, and getting two lawyers to agree on anything is difficult at best):

Our lawyers have suggested that we don't provide legal advice to our customers. If you want to use any brand names or brand images in your components and you’re not sure whether or not you’re legally allowed to, you should ask the brand owner for permission. If you have permission from the correct person, and you only use the relevant brand within the permission you were given, it is unlikely that you will have any issues in relation to your use of that brand.

I'm still a little confused by this. Does this mean the creator who uploaded their content to the DLS is liable for having the permission to use the brand names/logos based on the DLS terms, or that the creator of a DLC referencing those DLS Items is liable for making sure all of them have said permission?

Also wouldn't it be an option to seperate the download of the DLC content you just bought with money visually from the download of the freeware content you get with it to make clear the content is in fact freeware and not part of the paid package?


Greets, Mika

oknotsen
May 13th, 2018, 06:39 AM
Does this mean the creator who uploaded their content to the DLS is liable for having the permission to use the brand names/logos based on the DLS termsYes.
To my knowledge it clearly states so in the terms you agree on when uploading content (that box of text most people ignore).


or that the creator of a DLC referencing those DLS Items is liable for making sure all of them have said permission?No. That person is just referencing them.

Knightw0lf
May 15th, 2018, 02:14 AM
Yes.
To my knowledge it clearly states so in the terms you agree on when uploading content (that box of text most people ignore).

No. That person is just referencing them.


I'm still a little confused by this. Does this mean the creator who uploaded their content to the DLS is liable for having the permission to use the brand names/logos based on the DLS terms, or that the creator of a DLC referencing those DLS Items is liable for making sure all of them have said permission?

Also wouldn't it be an option to seperate the download of the DLC content you just bought with money visually from the download of the freeware content you get with it to make clear the content is in fact freeware and not part of the paid package?


Greets, Mika

at lest in america most businesses hate seeing you make money off there products or using it without there knowledge pretty is pretty much a no no. i think a few other countries are more relaxed though your good though if your not making any money off the objects though so you want permission to use trademark items, if it's freeware then your pretty much good and you will be fine.

also first time using these forums but i'm a forums user just not here

JCitron
May 15th, 2018, 08:02 AM
at lest in america most businesses hate seeing you make money off there products or using it without there knowledge pretty is pretty much a no no. i think a few other countries are more relaxed though your good though if your not making any money off the objects though so you want permission to use trademark items, if it's freeware then your pretty much good and you will be fine.

also first time using these forums but i'm a forums user just not here

Welcome to the forums!

Yes this is true, but companies are sometimes willing to work with people too if they ask permission to use the logo or name. In the end it's always best to ask first before using. If it's okay, then just abide by the rules set forth by organization. If the marketing department is kind, they will send out a manual on how to use or not use the logo along with colors, sizes, and placement.

I worked in the graphics industry, and we dealt with companies and their use of logos and mostly with how not to use them, or recreate them. That was back in the days when there were no scanners and artwork had to be photo-stated and recreated from films. Today with scanners and image-editing software, things are a lot different and a lot easier in this regard.

bj1888
May 18th, 2018, 01:08 PM
With new versions of Trainz on the way, we're keen to enlist more content creators in the Trainz Content Creation Program (TCCP) (https://www.trainzportal.com/news/view/trainz-content-creator-program-now-online), where you can earn extra money for your Trainz creations.

We are looking for model, small and large routes as well as locos and rolling stock. We are especially interested in more British and Euro content creators.

If you are interested in becoming part of TCCP or know of a great content development individual or team out there who would be, please let us know.


If it's British content you are after I have a class 158 in the works with a fully working cab which might be of interest.

The cab uses a 3 step brake which I have managed to fudge and a 7 notch throttle, but both feel like they are fighting against the current physics and controls and while it more or less works it is far from ideal. So have you any plans to update the physics so that this sort of set up would work better?

There are also several other trains I'd like to make to go with the route I was working on. However, unless you're involved in the industry or know someone who is it is very difficult to find good info or reference images. With that in mind can you offer any support regarding getting access to such material for building locos/trains, particularly for creating realistic sound and cabs with authentic controls?


As for routes. I was working on a Scottish route out of Glasgow Central which would have had a lot of new, high detail and optimised custom content. However progress on it has stalled as it's impossible to work with hidden spline points and there are just too many of them close together on this route to make it practical to continue at the minute.


I've also done some work on the Severn Valley Railway just to see how it would look. Would that be the type of route you'd be interested in?


One other thing. Are there any plans to allow us to make our own speed trees? Those currently available just aren't suitable for the look I'm trying to create.


Here's a WIP screenshot of the 158 cab.
https://i.imgur.com/X0X9JQF.jpg


And some screenshots from the routes.


A foggy morning in Glasgow. Getting the track work right on this is impossible because you can't see the spline points and adding catenary would be just a whole new level of pain.

https://i.imgur.com/8sJfOw0.jpg


A few from a small section of the Severn Valley. These shots are using a combination of incomplete assets, place holders and modified assets and speed trees that can never be released and that aren't quite right anyway. Hopefully though they give an idea what could be done with custom assets throughout if there would be any interest in such a route.


A couple of Bridgnorth station.
https://i.imgur.com/3x9DUpS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vP7iO3u.jpg


Some more from a little further down the line.
https://i.imgur.com/rwbkLHq.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VtJNOGD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pxc2TG7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4t6DTxW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/g68a4P7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/oRzov5O.jpg

Mick_Berg
May 19th, 2018, 12:32 AM
Would we have a chance to approve the final version of our content before it was offered for sale? My little contribution to the TANE version of ECML (The Widened Lines) was trashed when it came out. It had an error that meant that the trains wouldn't even run on one section of it (missing section of track), and all kinds of other changes that I absolutely hated. I wouldn't want this to happen again.

Also, would all custom content for a route need to be made to a minimum build (eg 3.5)?

Thanks,
Mick

Vern
May 19th, 2018, 01:03 AM
Re SVR, looks very nice but might be best to leave as freeware or even change the names to a fictional setting. Of all the UK heritage railways, they are the most protective of their image and licence. Back in MSTS days, only Blue Arrow were allowed to develop a version of the route for sale and I believe that entailed some fairly strict creative controls. It is unlikely they would take kindly to a route clearly identifiable with their product being sold as payware for a sim and at the least you would need to speak to the railway to establish their position.

In fact, ISTR Blue Arrow and SVR even getting funny about anyone trying to do a freeware version of the route for MSTS.

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade here but the SVR - fine railway that it is - tends to be the Union Pacific of the UK rail scene when it comes to identity and branding in other products.