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johnwhelan
February 17th, 2018, 02:02 PM
PLL has some reasonable scenery narrow boats.

Vulcan has an operating lock KUID2:60238:60041:2 which unfortunately is only 20 meters long. Ideally it would be 22 meters long to accommodate a 70 foot narrow boat which was the most common size.

We can use invisible track either at 0 or 1 meter down? Which is the most common?

Do we have anything else useful?

Thanks John

stagecoach
February 17th, 2018, 05:54 PM
Vulcan also has small canal locks 1, 2 and 3 which are longer. KUID2:60238:60041:2 was I think his first lock, he then built a larger one and also two others without walls so you could create your own canal sides, one of these is a double lock. The old system for boats was -7m below ground level and Barry created some narrow boats at -3m. As all the track was below the water line it made it difficult to place boats on it. Later a standard of 3m above water level was brought in for track laying and is what most of Vulcan's boats use.

johnwhelan
February 17th, 2018, 06:22 PM
3 meters above ground seems sensible. <kuid:39134:100314> Invisible Wire Red bnsf50 perhaps.

putting the locks side by side in surveyor only small canal lock 5 which is KUID2:60238:60041:2 looks correct for a narrow boat lock on a UK canal which means a 19.5 meter boat length or 64 foot barge rather than a 70 foot one.

Thanks John

crisger
February 17th, 2018, 07:38 PM
those narrow boats were HARD to handle back in the 70s i looked at buying one while i was up at Oxford and wow, that a handful. I took one down a canal to London and on the river it was a wild ride. :) but fun.

glad to see someone modelling them ...this for a new route?

Chris

johnwhelan
February 17th, 2018, 08:33 PM
those narrow boats were HARD to handle back in the 70s i looked at buying one while i was up at Oxford and wow, that a handful. I took one down a canal to London and on the river it was a wild ride. :) but fun.

glad to see someone modelling them ...this for a new route?

Chris

I'm not sure there are enough assets at the moment and route building isn't one of my strong points.

Cheerio John

crisger
February 18th, 2018, 06:13 AM
HI

well maybe someone who had made a route will let you add canals ? there were canals in quite a few areas of the UK, all over in fact, i dont know what UK routes have been made in Trainz but that might be fun and a way to go.

Chris

neville_hill
February 18th, 2018, 09:08 AM
I put some embryonic canal and waterways elements ln my 'Dearnby' routes but found the potential limited by the small number of high quality assets on the DLS. There are some good narrowboats around but very few. It was a case of trying to assemble everything from scratch. There are certainly a gap here for any asset creators seeking a new challenge.

normhart
February 18th, 2018, 11:56 AM
Just a small comment from across the pond. B & O Canal. :D I'd love to see this developed somewhere.

Back to Jolly Old.

johnwhelan
February 18th, 2018, 02:17 PM
Just a small comment from across the pond. B & O Canal. :D I'd love to see this developed somewhere.

Back to Jolly Old.

I thought you were on my side of the pond or has Donald put up a wall so you have cross the pond twice to get to the states now?

Cheerio John

johnwhelan
February 19th, 2018, 04:50 PM
If anyone feels like playing with a beta and it is a beta then its here:

http://www.jatws.org/johnw/70barge.zip

It needs track set to 3 meters in the air. The hull is incorrect for a barge and there are a number of other issues for the rivet counters. It is not meant to be a particular narrow boat but it carries bulk cargo. It also has a tarp.

I'm interested in suggestions for a boatman at the back and in any major discrepancies. Aty suggestions on how to limit its speed to say 3 or 4 mph would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Cheerio John

vulcan
February 19th, 2018, 05:36 PM
Hello John,

I modified the small canal lock 5 and uploaded version 2, to add additional invisible track to the lock at each end, this was necessary so you could place triggers to drive to. As you probably know you need to have some part of the track past the turntable (lock) so a loco can see it under AI, otherwise is pulls up short and won't enter the lock. Placing triggers on the far track extensions allows the boat to stop in the middle of the lock under AI.

Parryjc asked for that addition before Christmas, as the AI in Tane would not work with the lock. A couple of days ago he also asked me to make the lock longer, as you have suggested. I have just uploaded the small canal lock 6 which is 5 metres longer than model 5, Parryjc now reports that it works correctly in Tane.

This is the thread where we discussed changes necessary:

https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?141148

New model 6 should be on the DLS soon.

Ian

johnwhelan
February 19th, 2018, 06:15 PM
Hello John,

I modified the small canal lock 5 and uploaded version 2, to add additional invisible track to the lock at each end, this was necessary so you could place triggers to drive to. As you probably know you need to have some part of the track past the turntable (lock) so a loco can see it under AI, otherwise is pulls up short and won't enter the lock. Placing triggers on the far track extensions allows the boat to stop in the middle of the lock under AI.

Parryjc asked for that addition before Christmas, as the AI in Tane would not work with the lock. A couple of days ago he also asked me to make the lock longer, as you have suggested. I have just uploaded the small canal lock 6 which is 5 metres longer than model 5, Parryjc now reports that it works correctly in Tane.

This is the thread where we discussed changes necessary:

https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?141148

New model 6 should be on the DLS soon.

Ian

Many thanks Ian. It's been floating round at the back of my mind for some time. Parryjc would prefer a far more accurate model than I've thrown together but I think having something that works reasonably well is a first step. With your new locks I think someone can create an layout based on operating canal barges. Refining the barges I think will happen over time. I know one content creator is working on one but movement is slow.

The big problem for me is the hull. I have one created by Barry in Blender years ago but it wasn't a canal barge. However I stretched and chops bit off so it looks not too unreasonable. I may try to create one from scratch, I have some plans but step one was to put something together from the bit box.

Cheerio John

Barry
February 19th, 2018, 07:49 PM
Many thanks Ian. It's been floating round at the back of my mind for some time. Parryjc would prefer a far more accurate model than I've thrown together but I think having something that works reasonably well is a first step. With your new locks I think someone can create an layout based on operating canal barges. Refining the barges I think will happen over time. I know one content creator is working on one but movement is slow.

The big problem for me is the hull. I have one created by Barry in Blender years ago but it wasn't a canal barge. However I stretched and chops bit off so it looks not too unreasonable. I may try to create one from scratch, I have some plans but step one was to put something together from the bit box.

Cheerio John

Hi. I think I used Blender at the time to make the barges, etc. Not sure how that exports now into Trainz and the file type. I think I exported to obj. Given up making routes in the Blender Game Engine as too many changes, but might try making just canals and barges,sail ships, etc...free style, if I can find some route editor to export them to. I think I just extruded down af few times from the deck layout and mirrored halfs, pulled in the bow end, added rubbing boards, hatches etc. I deleted all my previous content and Blender Game Engine as made several barges for it and might have worked for Trainz and a lot of canal sections, locks, Liverpool docks etc 1815 and 1833.. Still got plenty of photos of Leeds to Liverpool as only live half mile away. Trainz is too complex for me now. Maybe my content still on download station 2004? Maybe static Liverpool docks to Ellesmere Port barge locks route still there same similar as in BGE. I think I made 7 miles of Liverpool docks in Trainz with the trams but don't have Trainz.. so forget now. c2004.

Barry.

vulcan
February 19th, 2018, 08:21 PM
Hi Barry, nice to see you again.

John, the narrow canal locks were done at the request of Boat, he suggested that my other locks were a bit wide for the typical canals. I made a special narrow boat for him to use, he provided a nice put-put engine sound. The model is Narrow Boat 1, kuid2:60238:9606:2

Ian

Barry
February 19th, 2018, 08:27 PM
Hi Barry, nice to see you again.

John, the narrow canal locks were done at the request of Boat, he suggested that my other locks were a bit wide for the typical canals. I made a special narrow boat for him to use, he provided a nice put-put engine sound. The model is Narrow Boat 1, kuid2:60238:9606:2

Ian

Hello Ian I seem to have travelled back in time. Barry

johnwhelan
February 19th, 2018, 08:47 PM
Hi Barry, nice to see you again.

John, the narrow canal locks were done at the request of Boat, he suggested that my other locks were a bit wide for the typical canals. I made a special narrow boat for him to use, he provided a nice put-put engine sound. The model is Narrow Boat 1, kuid2:60238:9606:2

Ian

I've copied it across. Very nice sound. Narrow Boat 1 is good but its more a modern house boat style narrow boat than a traditional cargo carrying narrow boat which is more what I was after.

Note to Barry this stuff needs TANE really which in turn implies a GTX1050TI or better GPU with directx 11. I have TANE running on a laptop with series 4000 Intel integrated graphics and it might be possible to run a canal layout on it. I'll have to try it. I think I have a spare TANE license lying around if you have the hardware. If you have any Blender source lying around I can probably bring them into TANE.

With Vulcan's two locks and a cargo barge I think the basics are now there for something set say 1930. One problem is the water in TANE is too clear. I can't think of a single UK canal that you could see through more than two inches of water.

Cheerio John

Barry
February 19th, 2018, 09:20 PM
I've copied it across. Very nice sound. Narrow Boat 1 is good but its more a modern house boat style narrow boat than a traditional cargo carrying narrow boat which is more what I was after.

Note to Barry this stuff needs TANE really which in turn implies a GTX1050TI or better GPU with directx 11. I have TANE running on a laptop with series 4000 Intel integrated graphics and it might be possible to run a canal layout on it. I'll have to try it. I think I have a spare TANE license lying around if you have the hardware. If you have any Blender source lying around I can probably bring them into TANE.

With Vulcan's two locks and a cargo barge I think the basics are now there for something set say 1930. One problem is the water in TANE is too clear. I can't think of a single UK canal that you could see through more than two inches of water.

Cheerio John

Hello John I deleted all my Blender Game Engine routes that had the schooner, paddle steamer, sailing flats, barges, etc a few months back.. Also closed my site with all the downloads so not quite sure what to do. Getting a bit old as few years off 4 score so can't see me using Tane.

The barges I made I think were about 14 feet wide. I used them as sailing flats (barge with sail) Narrow boats are about 7 feet. I might start again. If you use Blender just extrude down from the deck, . Ian showed me the method yeras ago. If you want photos of towpath and Leeds to Liverpool might be able to email includling hump back bridge, etc.
I am talking myself into making them again. Metal bridges seem to have replaced the wood swing bridge.Barry

normhart
February 20th, 2018, 06:22 AM
I thought you were on my side of the pond or has Donald put up a wall so you have cross the pond twice to get to the states now?

Cheerio John

LOL, with all the Americans fleeing to Canada I'm just glad M. Trudeau is far too much of a gentleman to build walls.

I am a complete putz, it is not the B&O Canal it is the C&O Canal. There are a couple of fine photographs floating around of coal being transferred from C&P, CCC, and WM RR jimmies to coal barges on the C&O Canal. (The switch engines in the Cumberland yard were mules.)

parryjc
February 22nd, 2018, 06:46 AM
Hi Guys,

Never thought that my simple request to John Whelan (https://mail.aol.com/webmail-std/en-gb/suite#) to produce a "proper Narrow boat" would have gained so much interest especially after being told time and time again this is a Trainz (https://mail.aol.com/webmail-std/en-gb/suite#) game not canals. I trust the moderator who repeatedly replied to me in that vein will take note.

I'm currently working up a route based around 1930's from Tyseley junction to Birmingham Snow hill possibly Woverhampton.
Any body who knows this route will have seen many parts of the canal system and possibly knows that part of the BCN (Birmingham Canal Network) passes right under the station.

As many of the railway surveyors followed the surveys already laid out for the canals, canals to my mind, do play a part in the general scenery, and if they can work so much the better.
The comment on water is an easy fix. Canal water can vary from putrid green to almost black, Brownish grey mostly.
Set the colour in the water table, place water at whatever height, bring the ground up to the water table level -0.02
Example: CANAL WATER LEVEL -5.60
CANAL BED -5.62 Use black or dark brown ground cover
BOAT TRACK LEVEL -2.60
TOWPATH HEIGHT -4.65 variable to whatever bank side you use. A third of a meter or one foot higher than water table level would be about right.

Vulcan stretched his lock for me to pass a 72' boat and John Whelan (https://mail.aol.com/webmail-std/en-gb/suite#) now has some great boats, loadable with various cargo, whilst I'm trying to painting them up in traditional canal colours.


Snow Hill, has new resplendent signals from the hands of Chris Whiting,
but still very much short on station buildings should anybody wish to give them a go.


Should put a folder up in the cloud for interested parties to view, but never seem to get around to it.
Grateful thanks to all these guys who have and still are working with me to produce Snow Hill 1935.
Cheers guys Thanks.
John P (https://mail.aol.com/webmail-std/en-gb/suite#).

johnwhelan
February 22nd, 2018, 07:30 AM
Hi Guys,

Never thought a simple request to John whelan would have produced so much interest especially after being told time and again

There has been some background interest for some time. Barry for example was one of the leading lights and that was some years ago. Glasgow QueenSt
is one of Chris's layouts that has some quite interesting bits of canal work.

Cheerio John

johnwhelan
February 25th, 2018, 09:12 AM
There are now three of my cargo 70 foot narrow boats working their way through the DLS process. Two are low poly more suited to use on a laptop or if you have Intel integrated graphics they should be fine. Note there will be minor changes to all three of these barges so expect a version one or two shortly.

Vulcan's "small canal lock 6 narrow" is now available on the DLS.

So if someone wants to try their hand at a canal layout the basic parts are now there.

Cheerio John

Barry
March 10th, 2018, 09:47 AM
There are now three of my cargo 70 foot narrow boats working their way through the DLS process. Two are low poly more suited to use on a laptop or if you have Intel integrated graphics they should be fine. Note there will be minor changes to all three of these barges so expect a version one or two shortly.

Vulcan's "small canal lock 6 narrow" is now available on the DLS.

So if someone wants to try their hand at a canal layout the basic parts are now there.

Cheerio John

Yes Blender is most useful for ship and barge making in Trainz and simulations.
Barry. ;)

johnwhelan
March 10th, 2018, 10:40 AM
I've recently uploaded at least three of Barry's sailing barges to the DLS in the last few days. These were used on some of the wider canals and in the estuaries around Liverpool.

Cheerio John

Barry
March 10th, 2018, 11:11 AM
I've recently uploaded at least three of Barry's sailing barges to the DLS in the last few days. These were used on some of the wider canals and in the estuaries around Liverpool.

Cheerio John

John I cleared out the emails so could you email to confirm if you want ver6 and ver7.
Completed the range of sailing flats. no 6 is now with mainsail and 7 is jib and mainsail.
This completes the seven and next move is the schooners 'again' as all previously deleted.

Thanks

Barry

Barry
March 10th, 2018, 11:39 AM
Hi Guys,

Never thought that my simple request to John Whelan (https://mail.aol.com/webmail-std/en-gb/suite#) to produce a "proper Narrow boat" would have gained so much interest especially after being told time and time again this is a Trainz (https://mail.aol.com/webmail-std/en-gb/suite#) game not canals. I trust the moderator who repeatedly replied to me in that vein will take note.

I'm currently working up a route based around 1930's from Tyseley junction to Birmingham Snow hill possibly Woverhampton.
Any body who knows this route will have seen many parts of the canal system and possibly knows that part of the BCN (Birmingham Canal Network) passes right under the station.

As many of the railway surveyors followed the surveys already laid out for the canals, canals to my mind, do play a part in the general scenery, and if they can work so much the better.
The comment on water is an easy fix. Canal water can vary from putrid green to almost black, Brownish grey mostly.
Set the colour in the water table, place water at whatever height, bring the ground up to the water table level -0.02
Example: CANAL WATER LEVEL -5.60
CANAL BED -5.62 Use black or dark brown ground cover
BOAT TRACK LEVEL -2.60
TOWPATH HEIGHT -4.65 variable to whatever bank side you use. A third of a meter or one foot higher than water table level would be about right.

Vulcan stretched his lock for me to pass a 72' boat and John Whelan (https://mail.aol.com/webmail-std/en-gb/suite#) now has some great boats, loadable with various cargo, whilst I'm trying to painting them up in traditional canal colours.


Snow Hill, has new resplendent signals from the hands of Chris Whiting,
but still very much short on station buildings should anybody wish to give them a go.


Should put a folder up in the cloud for interested parties to view, but never seem to get around to it.
Grateful thanks to all these guys who have and still are working with me to produce Snow Hill 1935.
Cheers guys Thanks.
John P (https://mail.aol.com/webmail-std/en-gb/suite#).

John P

Two ways how to use Blender. Blender Game Engine and Blender but BOTH ways are identical as regards the basic content ships and anything else. That is how I am able to make items available for Trainz by using what I make for the BGE. The same items used either way can apparently be used in Trainz and exported into various file types.

However John Whelan knows more about the Trainz side of things.

I don't know if the 7 miles of Liverpool docks, trams, trains, and ships, and static barge locks at Ellesmere Port would still work but about 2004 or perhaps earlier.

I will be unable to discuss non Trainz matters on this thread as years ago moderators decreed otherwise so I no longer waste my times posting and have no further interest in Trainz. I will be continuing making content not for Trainz, but as mentioned, it is my in BGE. content. If John Whelan can convert them for Trainz that is fine.... but not for commercial use. Textures are from my own photos, Liverpool docks, and Leeds to liverpool canal etc as I just use what I have available or use the Gimp or paint.net..

The series of 7 versions sailing flats is completed and next will be to remake the schooner in a similar series of versions.

Thanks

Barry

Vern
July 23rd, 2018, 04:34 AM
Bit of a bump, but having recently discovered the freeware narrow boat simulator for Android and PC ( https://sites.google.com/view/narrowboat-simulator/about ) - the only one of its kind, AFAIK, I was wondering how hard or easy it would be to set up a driveable canal route in Trainz? After a visit to Devizes last week and a walk down Caen Hill I was very taken by what I saw.

Perhaps N3V might turn their thoughts to a canal spin off of Trainz, the main difference being the boats shouldn't be tied to a fixed track line.

parryjc
July 23rd, 2018, 05:23 AM
Hi Vern.

There are a number of assets which can be used to do just exactly as you suggest, a drivable canal boat. I haven't visited your link, but here in Trainz the drivable boats are classed as engins and require a track to run on. Use one of the invisible ones. Divergance of routes is effected in exactly the same way as trains would be, but use invisible signals for your tracking. All attributes of AI can be utilized on your canal system, after all is said and done a boay is simply a disguised train!

I suggest you look up "Vulcan" by name on the DLS, he has some lovely models and for my Snow Hill project he extended his original 50ft. Narrow lock to a full 72+ feet, to accomodate the full length narrow boats.
There are a number of other boats by various contributors to the DLS, just try looking up "Narrow Boat".

Vulcans locks are "snap to" but can be orientated, if you move them, it does become a little more difficult to connect the canal to them.

If you need drop me a PM. with you private email and I can probably give you some additional pointers, and a couple of screen shots from Snow Hill 1935.

Happy trainzing down the cut.
JP.

Vern
July 23rd, 2018, 05:50 AM
Thanks JP, when I've finished my current route I will check this out. Caen Hill might be a tad ambitious for a first project, but a gentler stretch of the Grand Union or even restore part of the old Thames & Severn just north of here!

johnwhelan
July 23rd, 2018, 07:16 AM
Vulcan has kindly made one of his hulls available so there are a few cargo carrying 70 foot barges around and there are a bunch of reskins floating in the ether that should be available shortly.

Cheerio John

nawlins
July 23rd, 2018, 09:36 AM
My Glasgow Queen St route/session has a few canals on it. Also Ian's (vulcan's) Falkirk Wheel. It uses the vulcan canal boats and also maysontaylor's pleasure boats.

If you are interested look for username nawlins on the DLS.

Cheers

nawlins
July 23rd, 2018, 09:40 AM
My Glasgow Queen St route/session has a few canals on it. Also Ian's (vulcan's) Falkirk Wheel. It uses the vulcan canal boats and also maysontaylor's pleasure boats.

If you are interested look for username nawlins on the DLS.

Cheers

Vern, you may remember this one. It uses your TRS2004 original route (with your permission) and has been updated many times since then.

Cheers

parryjc
July 23rd, 2018, 10:19 AM
Thanks JP, when I've finished my current route I will check this out. Caen Hill might be a tad ambitious for a first project, but a gentler stretch of the Grand Union or even restore part of the old Thames & Severn just north of here!

Well you've got over 2000 miles to choose from Vern. Now, I see what you mean by "self steer" having spent the last couple of hours playing with your link.
Quite, quite different from anything seen in trainz.

That canal sim reminds me what trainz started out with all those years back, plain and simple and candidly not too true to life.
Who ever put that Canal together should be applauded, I only hope he/she can get some sort of backing for it, as I think it has the beginings of something v.good.
Do let me know how you get on with yur project, but I suggest you PM me as the powers that be are likely to jump on us for promoting Canals on a trainz forum.
Cheers JP.

Vern
July 23rd, 2018, 11:13 AM
I suggest you PM me as the powers that be are likely to jump on us for promoting Canals on a trainz forum.

I will watch my step :confused: though seems odd some would raise an objection to legitimate use of the software. In fact, here in the UK many stretches of railway closely parallel the canals which preceded them, as both looked for the easiest gradient and path from A to B.

KenGreen
July 23rd, 2018, 01:03 PM
I can't imagine any of the current moderators complaining about a thread on canals. They are as valid as road traffic or aeroplanes in Trainz as they add that much more interest to routes.

Ken

johnwhelan
July 23rd, 2018, 01:29 PM
> I suggest you PM me as the powers that be are likely to jump on us for promoting Canals on a trainz forum

I think the concern was Barry's talk of the Blender game engine which is no more in the latest version of Blender.

There are already some layouts with canals on them but hopefully with Vulcan's new 72 foot lock there will be more to come. I've just put up five of KotangaGirl's reskins on one barge mesh and there are another five to go on Vulcan's mesh shortly when I've finished the red tape.

We've added a fair chunk of UK canal related content in the last few months.

Cheerio John

Barry
July 23rd, 2018, 06:32 PM
Hi John bge back version works fine.

However not here to discuss Blender but canal barges and sailing flats of mine made with Blender which John converted are now in Trainz. B






(http://www.bgcoastalpast.com/)

Stationbeem
July 23rd, 2018, 07:05 PM
Sorry to bother you John.
I have just downloaded your "narrow boat 70 Severn & Sussex" and it is flagging <kuid:768291:100017> as unknown.

Regards Dave.

johnwhelan
July 23rd, 2018, 07:33 PM
Sorry to bother you John.
I have just downloaded your "narrow boat 70 Severn & Sussex" and it is flagging <kuid:768291:100017> as unknown.

Regards Dave.

Version :1 in working its way through the DLS process. The cabins are now under my kuid rather than 768291 and the DLS promises they should be up within 15 hours. There are another four in the group but the version that uses Vulcan's hull is still to be uploaded.

Cheerio John

parryjc
July 24th, 2018, 01:14 AM
Cheers John.
I know you have been beavering away on my boats, the available content is double what it was from January '18, I'm most grateful too.
Prior to your highly valued input into this subject there was very little. I sent Annie a link to a short video of Tay breaking ice, as there are some powerful side shots almost square on for which she expressed her delight.
I havn't seen her finished artwork as yet but the bits I have seen look good.
Have you set out anything on the gas boats yet?

Many thanks
JP.

KotangaGirl
July 24th, 2018, 03:43 AM
Not a lot more has happened from me in the way of input to this project JP as I've had a patch of not being very well and being too sleepy to do graphics work without making a right mess of it. The cabin artwork that John has from me are the ones you have already seen which I guess will be fine for now. When I'm more well I'll have a go at doing some upgraded cabin artwork, but I won't make any promises as to when that will be.

johnwhelan
July 24th, 2018, 08:18 AM
Cheers John.
I know you have been beavering away on my boats, the available content is double what it was from January '18, I'm most grateful too.
Prior to your highly valued input into this subject there was very little. I sent Annie a link to a short video of Tay breaking ice, as there are some powerful side shots almost square on for which she expressed her delight.
I havn't seen her finished artwork as yet but the bits I have seen look good.
Have you set out anything on the gas boats yet?

Many thanks
JP.

It doesn't quite work that way. The first step is to get a working hull and get the loads and tarp sorted out and that takes time. Once we have a reasonable mesh for the cabin then we have something that can be reskinned and that means the available content goes up very quickly. In this case Anne was very kind and created some reskins which you have already seen and will add variety and those are the ones that should show in the next couple of hours. Her spelling is better than mine never mind her graphics.

The same texture files can be used on three different cabins but for the moment I'll just use them on the shorter cabins so hopefully they should be available in a day or two on Vulcan's hull.

Your gas boat is on the to do list but hasn't arrived at the top yet.

Cheerio John

johnwhelan
July 24th, 2018, 08:35 PM
Sorry to bother you John.
I have just downloaded your "narrow boat 70 Severn & Sussex" and it is flagging <kuid:768291:100017> as unknown.

Regards Dave.

The updated version is now available.


Cheerio John

Vern
July 25th, 2018, 04:19 PM
Had a play around with the techniques this evening on a nice level stretch of "pound" and while there is room for refinement I grasped the basics of the relative dimensions fairly quickly. One thing I did learn is that it's better to make the cut with sections of 4 lane road than trying to use the terrain tool. My efforts with that looked more like the Panama Canal than the Kennett & Avon. I will probably need to go back and shallow the banks a little and currently contemplating how to represent the towpath. At the moment I'm coming down in favour of painted texture rather than using rather uniform looking splines. The FMA arch bridge splines also double nicely as road overbridges, if a little overscale.

The above of course, all in the interest of helping those wishing to add canals as scenic items to their Trainz railway routes. Any speculation I may be doing the process in reverse and adding a railway as scenery alongside the canal if I get to Pewsey, is exactly that!!

nawlins
July 25th, 2018, 04:55 PM
Sounds like you have it licked Vern. Good tip on cutting the canal.

I'm having a go myself and was wondering how best to carve the canal for a natural effect.

Cheers

Vern
July 27th, 2018, 09:38 AM
One challenge to come is how to do tunnels, of which there are more than a few on the network. I have an idea how to and of course it helps most canal tunnels are, by definition, straight and level. Just mid your head on the roof!

stagecoach
July 28th, 2018, 07:58 AM
Sink rail tunnels into the ground with boat track not attached to the tunnel spline.

https://youtu.be/C1xKsYfVnQc

nawlins
July 28th, 2018, 08:23 AM
Sink rail tunnels into the ground with boat track not attached to the tunnel spline.

https://youtu.be/C1xKsYfVnQc

That's what I did on my Glasgow Queen St. It had track attached so I used concrete slab spline to cover them. Worked well except it was a little too large.

Cheers

johnwhelan
July 28th, 2018, 10:45 AM
The latest addition to the fleet.



https://www.jatws.org/johnw/tanker.jpg

Two tanker tops to fit the 70 Vulcan barge hull.

narrow boat 4 70 Albion Coal KUID2:86627:101094:1

and

narrow boat 3 70 Fellows Morton & Clayton - Later KUID2:86627:101108:2

Have had their config.txt files edited so its an option. Typical loads would be tar and creosote but you'll need to add them to the queues. These work with the barges based on Vulcan's hull. One is set for the shorter cabin and one for the longer cabin. The longer cabin needs sorting out so the texture isn't so stretched.

KotangaGirl has been very nice and done a few reskins which add a bit of variety.

I think we have a very basic set of functional narrow boats now that can carry cargo. Over time hopefully the range will expand.

Can one set up a wharf with railway wagons on one side and narrow boats on the the other to transfer goods?

Thanks

Cheerio John

blueodessey
July 28th, 2018, 11:33 AM
:wave: Good Morning Gentleman,

:D I came across this Thread, and really like your Narrow Boat discussion, so I downloaded your Narrow Boats, and went to test them on my Test Route one Tile with Circle of Track, when I put one on the Track, it is listed as a Train, no faults, and it installed fine. Am using TANE SP2..........

:o The problem is, it shows green and red Arrow for direction the Track, but the boat is invisible????? In fact all the Narrow Boats show invisible.............?

:( Am I doing something wrong, I understand it goes in the water on invisible Track of my choice etc, could you help me here.........Thanks

nawlins
July 28th, 2018, 12:03 PM
:wave: Good Morning Gentleman,

:D I came across this Thread, and really like your Narrow Boat discussion, so I downloaded your Narrow Boats, and went to test them on my Test Route one Tile with Circle of Track, when I put one on the Track, it is listed as a Train, no faults, and it installed fine. Am using TANE SP2..........


The boat is made to float 7feet under the track. In surveyor if you activate the wireframe view(f9) you'll see the boat under ground.
boat track is laid 7' above the surface of the water.

Cheers

:o The problem is, it shows green and red Arrow for direction the Track, but the boat is invisible????? In fact all the Narrow Boats show invisible.............?

:( Am I doing something wrong, I understand it goes in the water on invisible Track of my choice etc, could you help me here.........Thanks

The boat is underground. Just activate the wireframe view (f9) and you'll see it.

Boat track is laid 7' above the surface of the water.


Cheers

blueodessey
July 28th, 2018, 12:07 PM
Ahhhh..........Thank you Sir..............And now I remember the Track had to be above Ground level, invisible of course..........

:o You'll excuse me, while I go stand in the corner for while with a Dunce Cap on my head......:hehe:

:wave: Thanks for the quick reply...........Have a great weekend Sir.......

stagecoach
July 28th, 2018, 12:25 PM
It is easier to say water level plus 3m. As water can be on various levels with locks, ground may not be at the correct level to work out the track level. Original narrowboats on trainz were at -3m below water level and other boats at -7m. It was Vulcan that brought in the 3m above water to get a visible standard for laying the track.

KotangaGirl
July 28th, 2018, 02:18 PM
The tanker tops for the narrowboats is looking very good indeed John.

Vern
July 29th, 2018, 09:06 PM
That's what I did on my Glasgow Queen St. It had track attached so I used concrete slab spline to cover them. Worked well except it was a little too large.

Cheers

There's also a 2T normal (not track) spline which emulates a complete UK tunnel including portals at either end (no track) and can be laid without angle restriction. Probably dwarf the average UK narrow boat, though, even if set low in the water.

Must say I am quite enjoying the experience and when I took a boat for a "drive" through the 2km I've done was pleased with the result even at Level One detail stage. I can honestly see my route building focus staying on this genre for some time - I've already short-listed the Oxford, Caldon, Crinan, Brecon & Monmouth plus the tunnel complex around Dudley as desirable further projects.

stagecoach
July 30th, 2018, 02:38 AM
One tip I found useful was to use a river spline just below the water level. This hid track in tunnels and made the bottom of the canal less harsh when a dark blue texture was used. There are some river bank splines that are good for canal banks.

Vern
August 1st, 2018, 12:52 PM
Yes there is a bit of an issue when using real water if the lock is at an angle to the tiling function. For now i have tried to find a stretch of river spline that will patch the gap. Not perfect but the only other option would be for the locks to extend a water "plane" at either end which still may not match the water texture chosen by the user.

I'm also considering how I might disguise the bright green grass texture used on some of the assets as it doesn't quite gell with more recent terrain textures, etc.

One other thing I have found on testing the lock functionality, it is very hard to find the sweet spot on the red arrows in order to activate the function. Clicking everywhere, after about 10 goes I managed to get a green to fill the lock for a craft going downhill but then couldn't activate the reverse function to lower the water level/boat in the lock. Can't see there is a keyboard command to work the turntable function either.

nawlins
August 1st, 2018, 03:47 PM
Yes there is a bit of an issue when using real water if the lock is at an angle to the tiling function. For now i have tried to find a stretch of river spline that will patch the gap. Not perfect but the only other option would be for the locks to extend a water "plane" at either end which still may not match the water texture chosen by the user.

I'm also considering how I might disguise the bright green grass texture used on some of the assets as it doesn't quite gell with more recent terrain textures, etc.

One other thing I have found on testing the lock functionality, it is very hard to find the sweet spot on the red arrows in order to activate the function. Clicking everywhere, after about 10 goes I managed to get a green to fill the lock for a craft going downhill but then couldn't activate the reverse function to lower the water level/boat in the lock. Can't see there is a keyboard command to work the turntable function either.

The sweet spot has always been a bit of an issue with turntables too. I find that moving the camera 90 degrees to the canal and about 30 degrees up gives the best results. As far as going up or down each arrow is unique. One is for down and one for up. Don't ask which.

Cheers

stagecoach
August 1st, 2018, 04:08 PM
You can use AI to work the locks. You need the input rule and move turntable command. The screenshot shows 3 double locks and all work with AI.https://images.n3vgames.com/trainzportal/mytrainz/36531/screenshots/79054/1000/18m-rise-with-canal-locks.jpg

johnwhelan
August 1st, 2018, 05:48 PM
I've been asked for some scenery versions of the canal boats so they are on the to do list.

Cheerio John

vulcan
August 1st, 2018, 06:18 PM
Hi Guys,

To operate the red and green arrows, your line of sight has to be through the arrows with part of the canal lock behind them. Sometimes for small transfer tables this is hard to do so for recent models I have added a large invisible square underground so the "footprint" of the asset is larger.

When Tane was released my invisible blue track was invisible, I did fix it but I was recently made aware that the update was not available on the DLS nor builtin. If you are having problems seeing the track download the update version 3 that I recently uploaded.

Ian

Vern
August 2nd, 2018, 01:52 AM
The blue track displays okay for me in Surveyor and is correctly invisible within Driver.

Guessed it would be trial and error with the lock operation, when it does trigger the animation is quite impressive!

stagecoach
August 6th, 2018, 03:25 AM
Hi John
Just downloaded your narrow boats and spotted two possible errors. 1, the series 3 70 sit fine on the water but the series 70 seem to be much lower. 2, the cab view seems to be a bit high. when you go under a bridge the boat is clear but in cab you go through the top of the bridge. Just put together a small canal using most of the locks, wheel and tunnels all working under AI.

johnwhelan
August 6th, 2018, 07:16 AM
Hi John
Just downloaded your narrow boats and spotted two possible errors. 1, the series 3 70 sit fine on the water but the series 70 seem to be much lower. 2, the cab view seems to be a bit high. when you go under a bridge the boat is clear but in cab you go through the top of the bridge. Just put together a small canal using most of the locks, wheel and tunnels all working under AI.

I uploaded some 24 updates to the cab view yesterday they should be available within 15 hours. Let me know if there is still a problem.

I think the 3 70s are the ones to use or possibly the 4 70 they've based on Vulcan's hull. The 4 70 has a longer cabin so needs different cabin textures. The simpler 70 series sit lower but I don't think they are impossibly low. I probably should animate them so they sit lower when loaded.

Cheerio John

stagecoach
August 6th, 2018, 07:56 AM
Thanks John
Look forward to them. The image shows the 3 70 with a 70 next to it. The next 70 on the outside is on track 0.5m above the other two.
https://images.n3vgames.com/trainzportal/mytrainz/36531/screenshots/79661/800/My-Trainz-Screenshot-Image.jpg
https://images.n3vgames.com/trainzportal/mytrainz/36531/screenshots/79660/1000/My-Trainz-Screenshot-Image.jpg

johnwhelan
August 6th, 2018, 12:18 PM
I think that KotangaGirl's textures do look very good on the cabins.

There are two basic hull's you should be looking /using. The n3 / n4 hulls are Vulcan's and he is much better at the higher detailed bits and his textures are very good. The other one is the low poly int hull but only if you're running a lower end machine. Actually looking through it would appear that although there are four scenery variations of the low poly with the cabin in the hull mesh there isn't one that is drivable. There will be one shortly.

So currently I'd just use the n3 and n4 variants and ignore the other ones which came before the n3 and n4 hull.

Sometime they could do with better cabins but at least we have something to work with.

Cheerio John

johnwhelan
August 6th, 2018, 02:35 PM
This one is a beta and in theory I've raised it .3 meters so try it. It integrates the cabin with the hull mesh so saves a texture file and a mesh file. Aimed at low end machines.

https://www.jatws.org/johnw/narrow_boat_70_int_low_poly.zip

Thanks John

Bookman1960
August 7th, 2018, 01:05 PM
WOW!

This is amazing! I too have been enjoying the Android Canal Boat and sim and was wondering why no one has created a Trainz canal sim. After all, Murchison 2 offered several ships/boats to operate around the waterways and bays.. So I hope that someone does indeed complete a functioning canal route.

I've believed for years that a true Canal Boat sim would be a viable PC game. There are numerous countries and locations in which to create routes...what fun. I live just a short drive from two historical canals here in Ohio (USA).

here's hoping.

KevinB
Ohio, USA

johnwhelan
August 7th, 2018, 01:43 PM
WOW!

This is amazing! I too have been enjoying the Android Canal Boat and sim and was wondering why no one has created a Trainz canal sim. After all, Murchison 2 offered several ships/boats to operate around the waterways and bays.. So I hope that someone does indeed complete a functioning canal route.

I've believed for years that a true Canal Boat sim would be a viable PC game. There are numerous countries and locations in which to create routes...what fun. I live just a short drive from two historical canals here in Ohio (USA).

here's hoping.

KevinB
Ohio, USA

Narrow boats and canals have been around for some time in Trainz since 2002 in fact. LaTrainzen france released a working payware lock using a certain type of turntable (transfer?) many years ago Barry was an early creator who was interested in boats and barges.

What has happened more recently is Vulcan has set a new standard track height of 3 meters above the ground and created a 7 foot wide lock. This was lengthened at the request of JC Parry to allow 70 foot barges to pass through and its that lock that has made a narrow boat canal practical. The track 3 meters in the air makes laying track simpler and there were different standards for track height.

I've been interested in them for some time and after working with Barry I created a new barge. Since I've done a fair number of wagons bulk load and tarps were easy to add. Getting the hull right was a problem. JC asked Vulcan nicely to send me his Blender source for his narrow boat and the narrow boats with 3 70 in the name are based on Vulcan's hull.

One of the nice things about barges are the painted cabins. KotangaGirl had done some very nice artwork on one of the coaches so I asked her nicely if she could do a narrow boat cabin. She came up with about five reskins and I used them on two basic barges and later on the scenery versions.

JC had requested a gas boat but I was unsure what it was but came across a youtube video of a tanker which I hadn't seen before. Fortunately Chris Nawlins has an engineering background so was able to give me approximate sizes for the hatches.

These barges are modular in many ways, so the easiest way to make the tanker was to make the deck a product same as the tarp.

Layoutwise we have products and all the other bits you need to transfer cargo so hopefully we should see some demo layouts shortly and more lengthy ones in time.

What we have at the moment needs refining. I suspect the engine sounds are wrong for a start, but it is a start.

The barges are fairly low impact, the invisible track is also low impact so it should be possible to create something like Middleton for laptops that will run on a low end machine.

Cheerio John

stagecoach
August 8th, 2018, 04:57 AM
https://images.n3vgames.com/trainzportal/mytrainz/36531/screenshots/79906/1000/Canal-scene.jpg
https://images.n3vgames.com/trainzportal/mytrainz/36531/screenshots/79905/800/Canal-and-Warehouses.jpg

johnwhelan
August 8th, 2018, 06:53 AM
Very nice urban shot.

Cheerio John

Vern
August 8th, 2018, 06:59 AM
Layoutwise we have products and all the other bits you need to transfer cargo so hopefully we should see some demo layouts shortly and more lengthy ones in time.

Started up a couple of projects but not entirely satisfied with the results. The main issue is the upper exit from locks as at anything other than 0, 90, 180 etc degrees you can't match the water plane using terrain based water. If you try and patch the gap with a spline then the gap looks odd. The alternative is using a spline section for the main canal pounds but this loses some of the graphical impact, then you have the opposite problems at marinas and winding holes, unless using one of the wider spine sections.

I've not given up but the process is actually quite challenging, more than I thought it would be. Some licence in positioning the locks could be the answer as in any event due to inaccuracy of DEM data these are not always needed in the real world location on the map. I may take a look at the Caldon or possibly Bridgewater as these are relatively lock free.

stagecoach
August 8th, 2018, 07:38 AM
Hi Vern
I use Water-small river To cover the odd angle and extend the walls at the top to the water plane. The Water-small river spline matches the water in the lock very well so wont look out of place.

Vern
August 8th, 2018, 09:05 AM
Hi Vern
I use Water-small river To cover the odd angle and extend the walls at the top to the water plane. The Water-small river spline matches the water in the lock very well so wont look out of place.

I shall give that a try. Out of interest, where is the route shown in your screenshots located? I'm guessing possibly around Birmingham or West Midlands perhaps?

Edit: If I could indulge another question, what spline are asset are you using for the canal side quay/wharf?

stagecoach
August 8th, 2018, 04:20 PM
Hi Vern
I use a combination of assets which gives the impression of parts built at different periods of time or new sections for repair work. The route is fictional and was started some time ago to test out the assets. The whole route works under AI including the locks with the help of using ATLS in a backwards set up (the triggers are after the tram stoppers instead of ahead of them). If you wish to PM me an email address I could send you the route as is, might give you some ideas.

<kuid2:36638:38001:1> canalbank2
<kuid2:60238:38217:2> Dockwall Timber
<kuid:425700:102217> CL Stream 01b 1 bank
<kuid2:60238:38230:2> Canal Wall 1
<kuid:425700:100078> CL Stream 01g - 1 bank
<kuid2:82412:700827:2> River-30mx30m-103
<kuid2:60238:38231:1> Canal Wall 2
<kuid2:124017:20124:1> Dock Wall 01
<kuid2:36638:38000:1> canalbank1
<kuid2:36638:38002:1> canalside1
<kuid2:36638:38003:1> canalside2
<kuid2:36638:38004:1> canalside3
<kuid2:60238:38158:1> Dockwall Rock
<kuid2:60238:38157:2> Dockwall Sheet Pile

stagecoach
August 8th, 2018, 06:40 PM
Sample of canal locks.


https://youtu.be/_hl2aQprMc0

KotangaGirl
August 8th, 2018, 07:24 PM
Wow! That is quite some canal route.

nawlins
August 21st, 2018, 08:32 AM
I've just completed Middleton with Canal which uses the 3 board Middleton for Laptops route with a canal added. There's a Wharf complex and a lock setup. It's all AI.

If the DLS comes back to life soon Middleton with Canal should be available for download shortly thereafter. The route is for TANE SP3

The canal features John Whelan's narrow boats and the railway uses his steam trams.

If you don't want to wait you can download the route and session here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6vzgsjdzh09ttxu/Middleton%20with%20canal%20Route%20and%20Session.c dp?dl=0

johnwhelan
August 21st, 2018, 10:07 AM
I've just completed Middleton with Canal which uses the 3 board Middleton for Laptops route with a canal added. There's a Wharf complex and a lock setup. It's all AI.

If the DLS comes back to life soon Middleton with Canal should be available for download shortly thereafter. The route is for TANE SP3

The canal features John Whelan's narrow boats and the railway uses his steam trams.

If you don't want to wait you can download the route and session here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6vzgsjdzh09ttxu/Middleton%20with%20canal%20Route%20and%20Session.c dp?dl=0

Highly recommended, I like the transfer from train to barge. Dangavel's sacks have been resized and make quite a reasonable barge load and Anne's cabin reskins add variety. It does however use speedtrees so it needs a bit more muscle than Intel integrated graphics 4000.

Cheerio John

blueodessey
August 21st, 2018, 10:44 AM
:wave: i downloaded the Single Tile examples and several other Misc items, this a very cool Thread with lots of good info, on something I knew little about, now some of my Rivers will have some Canal Boats in them for more interest, once I learn how to make decent Canals.......:cool:

stagecoach
August 23rd, 2018, 09:38 AM
On its way to the DLS is a canal route. it was put together over the last few weeks to show some of what can be done. It runs through old quarries and rises to an old dock area where several loading sections are available. I have used all of Vulcans smaller locks and his Falkirk Wheel. There is a 6 lock rise which is fully automatic in its operation. For tight areas I have used turntables and ATLS is used in a backward way to control boats through the locks (triggers after the lights, not before).

nawlins
August 23rd, 2018, 10:43 AM
On its way to the DLS is a canal route. it was put together over the last few weeks to show some of what can be done. It runs through old quarries and rises to an old dock area where several loading sections are available. I have used all of Vulcans smaller locks and his Falkirk Wheel. There is a 6 lock rise which is fully automatic in its operation. For tight areas I have used turntables and ATLS is used in a backward way to control boats through the locks (triggers after the lights, not before).

Look forward to checking it out. Sounds like fun. Thanks.

Cheers

stagecoach
August 23rd, 2018, 11:22 AM
https://youtu.be/vxRhWAAvCbA

https://youtu.be/UiNu6xtbWY4

https://youtu.be/0r5VLE1BNog

stagecoach
August 24th, 2018, 05:46 PM
Canals route and session now on the DLS. Did notice that ATLS changed the sequence to some of its start points so I would suggest you give Edgar a 5 minute delay instead of the 2 1/2 minutes I used. It all works fine but for some reason only known to the sim the step locks would like a boat to go down first. This is a sample to show how locks etc can be set up and used.