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johnwhelan
January 21st, 2018, 03:03 PM
I'm aware that content creators come and go but at the moment there seems to not that many left. Certainly in the UK scene.

There is a good basic set of assets but the new methods of creating using the FBX exporter and the new materials or even baking etc using the older methods seem to be daunting to the existing creators. I recognise that N3V makes money from payware sold through DLC but I wonder if the days of people being able to create content that looked reasonable are coming to an end apart from one or two skilled creators.

I'm not sure if it matters or if anything can be done to encourage content creation. The list of newly discovered "errors" on each new update is essentially disheartening.

Thoughts?

John

EverTrainz
January 21st, 2018, 03:26 PM
I/we have beat the topic to death but crowdfunding, or at least some form of monetary compensation is what I see future. Meshes need more complicated and detailed, and the textures, I would imagine the same.



Out of all this the UK scene is lagging the most, and using expired stock. I think since SRS released his Class 37 back in 2016 there have not been any new diesel releases. Yes, considering the difficulty of CC'ing it would be near irrational to simply put out your hard work on modeling and textures for free.

Also if everyone in Trainz were to charge for their UK locos, when the equivalent is offered in Train Simulator which:
• Has more and longer routes
• More detailed stock to run the payware loco with
• More functionalities in what can be done with the loco

... why would anyone buy the Trainz version? There doesn't seem to be many UK routes that are detailed. Yes, I can create high-detail locomotives but I cannot simply run them on R3's "Porchester and Bulls Well" route forever. I quite like the Midshire Mainline route but once again how long could I run solely on a few routes for? ... The downside to monetizing Trainz content is that a major pull factor of N3V is that there is a huge quantity of freeware, thus those that bought Trainz for the free content would be turned away.

If the content creator could get compensated for the time and effort put into the loco, while still releasing it for free, there is still some hope left for the UK Trainz world. But if people aren't able to put their money forth then the existing UK users will turn to Train Simulator for their primary "visual/aural/physical" needs, and use Trainz as their building simulator, as the UK visuals and audio age rapidly. Which is what I am seeing lots of people doing now.


Most of the content creation ability and resources (mainly time) seems to be found in different countries. A possibility would be to donate (or crowdfund) to these creators and raise a certain amount at which the foreign creator would agree to create the stock.

pware
January 21st, 2018, 04:35 PM
I suspect (hope) that the new methods and materials will be supported by tools that will make creating easier - especially if these same methods/materials are common in gaming as I would suspect they are. The same fears were raised when active industries and animated assets were first introduced into Trainz (2004??) many years ago but all it took was some time for the creators to get up to speed. I appreciate that the coming changes are much more significant, or seem to us to be more significant, than the changes back then and maybe it will need a new generation of savvy creators coming through to fill the gap.

Dinorius_Redundicus
January 21st, 2018, 04:53 PM
John

You have listed just about all the things I've been silently worried about - in relation to my own future as a creator - for quite a while. Just a feeling of being unable to get on top of all the things a Trainz creator is supposed to know. It's just so laborious and tricky to make stuff now. I still haven't got around to understanding animation, baking, ambient occlusion, scripting etc etc. and now we have to absorb all the new stuff like PBR materials and FBX/trainzmesh. Even our esteemed toolmaker, PEV, seems to be struggling with the changes.

sumitsingh
January 21st, 2018, 04:59 PM
There is a good basic set of assets but the new methods of creating using the FBX exporter and the new materials or even baking etc using the older methods seem to be daunting to the existing creators.
Mostly in future FBX will be used.
A lots of tutorial around for PBR & Blender.
When the new game is coming, will be demanding more graphics 10xx series, also I doubt TANE's support will be gone.
It will take sometime to get hands on with new method.
More the new features comes, more time is going to be consumed. It took 10+ days to make a model, I am working on, still it have 10% of what I am thinking.

Remember old school game MSTS? Once upon a time, I had made a single complete model once in a day. It was easier.

EverTrainz
January 21st, 2018, 05:11 PM
Well, Sumit, you are definitely a fast modeler! I started my last loco project 1 year ago and it's still in the works, but on the textures and materials.

sumitsingh
January 21st, 2018, 05:17 PM
I made a coal wagon. Easier to make specially, apply texture, write .sd and .wag. :hehe::hehe:

Old school it was.

Zeldaboy14
January 21st, 2018, 05:23 PM
Like all good modelers, it takes time to learn. Remember how everyone told me it'd take me a year to make a functioning steam loco and I proved everyone wrong within like 3 weeks? Determination is a key, even when learning. I know quite a bit thanks to a lot of you guys, and I've been told that i should try real steam locos. Seeing how i have murdoch being built, I may later modify it into one or more of the actual 9f classes. I want to actually create modern versions of Trainz Classic UK stuff, but i must first start with the 9f for many reasons.

clam1952
January 21st, 2018, 05:41 PM
Struggling here as well, my 3dsMax 10 can only export to an old version of FBX which means messing with Autodesks FBX convertor, which leaves me with Blender which even after a year I hate with a vengeance, horrible program that it is, takes me a week to do what I can do in 5 minutes in Max. Not giving up though, devoted too much time and energy, just have to knuckle down and get on with it.
Don't think paying someone else to create stuff is the answer though, crowd funding after the animosity created by the Kickstarter is not going to be on many peoples bucket list and any form of payware is not terribly popular.
Strongly suggest creators avail themselves of the chance to play with the TrainzDev build to try out the new materials and point out any pitfalls or problems before it's too late and we get stuck with them! It's just a basic minimal install no driver etc.

gawpo50
January 21st, 2018, 05:57 PM
Struggling here as well, my 3dsMax 10 can only export to an old version of FBX which means messing with Autodesks FBX convertor, which leaves me with Blender which even after a year I hate with a vengeance, horrible program that it is, takes me a week to do what I can do in 5 minutes in Max. Not giving up though, devoted too much time and energy, just have to knuckle down and get on with it.
Don't think paying someone else to create stuff is the answer though, crowd funding after the animosity created by the Kickstarter is not going to be on many peoples bucket list and any form of payware is not terribly popular.
Strongly suggest creators avail themselves of the chance to play with the TrainzDev build to try out the new materials and point out any pitfalls or problems before it's too late and we get stuck with them! It's just a basic minimal install no driver etc.


Hi Malc

I don't know if you can access the AutoDesk Education versions of Max there. If you can, get either the 2016 or 2018 version.....comes with a three yr licence, no cost.

philskene
January 21st, 2018, 06:02 PM
Hi John --

I sincerely hope not. I'm one of the parasites who takes the content of others and cobbles it together to make routes and model railroad layouts. Without the wonderful creations of all you guys I'm stuffed. Totally. I honestly owe you all a tremendous debt of gratitude.

I've seen some of the preliminary screen shotz and videos of the version of T:ANE that is under development. It looks absolutely stunning. I was hoping that that you content creators would be inspired to provide me with even better content. Please hasten to reassure me that will be the case?

Phil

gawpo50
January 21st, 2018, 06:04 PM
John

You have listed just about all the things I've been silently worried about - in relation to my own future as a creator - for quite a while. Just a feeling of being unable to get on top of all the things a Trainz creator is supposed to know. It's just so laborious and tricky to make stuff now. I still haven't got around to understanding animation, baking, ambient occlusion, scripting etc etc. and now we have to absorb all the new stuff like PBR materials and FBX/trainzmesh. Even our esteemed toolmaker, PEV, seems to be struggling with the changes.

There is nothing overly difficult to learn mate. For animations, learn to use bones, lot easier than using just dummies. baking out normal, AO,
albedo, metal, emmissive and other associated PBR parts can be done inside Substance Painter and Sunstance Player to assemble them into the files that Trainz needs. Substance Painter can either be had by a subscription method of $24.90 AUD a month or an out right purchase of an Indie Lic for $149 USD once only. Substance Player is a free utility. FBX/trainzmesh is not all that different to using the old *.im format.

Mick_Berg
January 21st, 2018, 06:10 PM
John

You have listed just about all the things I've been silently worried about - in relation to my own future as a creator - for quite a while. Just a feeling of being unable to get on top of all the things a Trainz creator is supposed to know. It's just so laborious and tricky to make stuff now. I still haven't got around to understanding animation, baking, ambient occlusion, scripting etc etc. and now we have to absorb all the new stuff like PBR materials and FBX/trainzmesh. Even our esteemed toolmaker, PEV, seems to be struggling with the changes.

Agreed, but I feel that all I need is one good tutorial to get me through the creation of an asset with PBR materials, especially the parameters texture. Then I should be able to continue to create simple buildings, which is all I aspire to creation wise. Exporting to .fbx is if anything easier than .im IMHO, except for the lack of error messages that were so useful in Torsten's .im exporter.

Until there's a good tutorial, I feel there is no point in me spending the time and effort to understand it all. But I'm optimistic that it will happen.

And don't forget that being a Trainz creator is not that far away from being a creator for the big video games. That's not something that every Tom, Dick and Harry expects to do without serious study and effort.

Mick

Mick_Berg
January 21st, 2018, 06:17 PM
Mostly in future FBX will be used.
A lots of tutorial around for PBR & Blender.
When the new game is coming, will be demanding more graphics 10xx series, also I doubt TANE's support will be gone.
It will take sometime to get hands on with new method.
More the new features comes, more time is going to be consumed. It took 10+ days to make a model, I am working on, still it have 10% of what I am thinking.

Remember old school game MSTS? Once upon a time, I had made a single complete model once in a day. It was easier.

Can you direct me to one that produces a model suitable for export to Trainz?

Thanks,
Mick

EverTrainz
January 21st, 2018, 06:27 PM
It may even be safe to say that younger people are at an advantage at creating content. I, being 18, paid exactly $0.00 for my copy of Substance Painter through an educational license.

All you need is a high school/college ID card, you will automatically get a free copy of Substance Painter and Substance Designer. Hint hint nudge nudge to all those elders with high school or older grand/children ;) .

But I think it’s rather risky and potentially frustrating creating PBR content without it. I don’t think there are many other programs that allow you to see the development of your PBR textures on the mesh in real-time. Also allows you to weather in 3D and accordingly edits the roughness, metallic, and albedo channels.

clam1952
January 21st, 2018, 06:39 PM
Hi Malc

I don't know if you can access the AutoDesk Education versions of Max there. If you can, get either the 2016 or 2018 version.....comes with a three yr licence, no cost.

Difficult as being retired it's a bit difficult to pass as a student, have tried though and it wanted my education establishment.

BlackDiamond1964
January 21st, 2018, 07:09 PM
As a person that has left the scene I can go into great details on why content creators have left Trainz. However I won't bore everybody with those details. Simply put, there is nothing to keep content creators here anymore. That is the one good thing about RW, the learning curve stays consistent. It may be consistently hard, but never the less it stays consistent and doesn't change too much. NV3 keeps making more difficult to execute or even understand what it takes to create up to date content for Trainz. Add the fact that you have to deal with the embarrassingly slow DLStation...why would anybody stick around? What the heck are PBR Textures? This is a new one to me!

dangavel
January 21st, 2018, 07:16 PM
Struggling here as well, my 3dsMax 10 can only export to an old version of FBX which means messing with Autodesks FBX convertor, which leaves me with Blender which even after a year I hate with a vengeance, horrible program that it is, takes me a week to do what I can do in 5 minutes in Max.
D.



I can appreciate your hatred of blender after using max as its very different. i did start learning blender and had a mental block with it at first, but i watched a series of Lynda tutorials from my local library ( for free ) and this made things much easier for me . Then I decided I just did not have time to make models and build routes as well so I stopped going further.
if you can access these tutorials I can recommend them, they were much better than books .

dangavel
January 21st, 2018, 07:27 PM
Difficult as being retired it's a bit difficult to pass as a student, have tried though and it wanted my education establishment.

I was even at a school where we had 3d max, thought I could get a copy to learn at home, our license didn't cover it , no home use ! I downloaded an education version but never could get it to install for some reason as the files split into two zips which seemingly could not make connections to each other to properly install. once the first part installed I could never get any further.
Now retired so cannot get a copy although I still have a teacher registration.
its always have been VERY expensive software and you cannot seem to be able to buy secondhand copies either.
Perhaps if you register as a home schooling tutor you might get away with it :-)

Dinorius_Redundicus
January 21st, 2018, 07:36 PM
It may even be safe to say that younger people are at an advantage at creating content. I, being 18, paid exactly $0.00 for my copy of Substance Painter through an educational license.

All you need is a high school/college ID card, you will automatically get a free copy of Substance Painter and Substance Designer. Hint hint nudge nudge to all those elders with high school or older grand/children ;) .

But I think it’s rather risky and potentially frustrating creating PBR content without it. I don’t think there are many other programs that allow you to see the development of your PBR textures on the mesh in real-time. Also allows you to weather in 3D and accordingly edits the roughness, metallic, and albedo channels.

See, I'd never even heard of Substance Painter/Designer until I read this thread. The money side of it doesn't bother me. $149 for a copy is really nothing - one of the advantages of being older.

pware
January 21st, 2018, 07:48 PM
See, I'd never even heard of Substance Painter/Designer until I read this thread.

That illustrates one of the problems. Unless you are totally up with the new technology, for example if it is part of your job, then us amateurs and hobbyists are always out of the loop. I do hope that N3V do release a list of the software tools that they would recommend as being required to create assets in the NEXT/Trainz 2018 environment.

EverTrainz
January 21st, 2018, 07:49 PM
See, I'd never even heard of Substance Painter/Designer until I read this thread.

No worries, there isn't much to be known in terms of software. Blender, Autodesk Max and GMAX (unless they are the same?), and now Substance Painter/Designer. Maybe CrazyBump if I see fit, but I haven't touched it in months. Paint.net for texture work that involves logos or stripes, designs of any sort. But apart from a good modeling software, a good image editor (mine is by no means "good"), and now Substance Painter, you really don't need much other programs to keep up with content creation. The learning curve for Substance Painter is not even an eighth of an eighth as difficult as it is for any of the modeling softwares. But the brushes and general navigation interface are a bit different, nothing some YouTutorials can't help.


The money side of it doesn't bother me. $149 for a copy is really nothing - one of the advantages of being older.

Being younger that seems like a lot to me - 15 hours of work! But I suppose now you really don't have many excuses to complain about the difficulty of PBR. If you are younger, you can run an educational license. If you are older, just buy it.

@ Mick Berg I think Sumit was referring to how in the future there would possibly be tutorials on PBR and getting it working. Maybe a Substance Painter > Trainz tutorial would come about.

dangavel
January 21st, 2018, 07:51 PM
Perhaps those of us who are older and have limited time remaining ( I'm in that club ) should consider what we do with our work once we are no longer actively working with Trainz or pass away .

Of course when we die or stop creating our knowledge is lost, but we could at least make sure that the original creations are available for others to use as a knowledge base.

For instance, I know that I could probably take another persons simple model and change it so it could become another item within blender, whereas making it from scratch might be beyond me . I'd have a start as materials and structure would be there and I could adapt as needed and learn from the mistakes I make with a model that's already there .

Now I realize that for those who strenuously cling to their creative rights and are copyright fanatics will find this concept odious , but there may be some creators who would be happy to bequeath their original model files to the trainz community for adaptation and non commercial use .

Ok, we have the DLS files but I think its a shame that many creators original 3D works will be deleted down the track because relatives have no use for them or don't know who to give them to .

is this impractical or what ?

clam1952
January 21st, 2018, 08:17 PM
Perhaps those of us who are older and have limited time remaining ( I'm in that club ) should consider what we do with our work once we are no longer actively working with Trainz or pass away .

Of course when we die or stop creating our knowledge is lost, but we could at least make sure that the original creations are available for others to use as a knowledge base.

For instance, I know that I could probably take another persons simple model and change it so it could become another item within blender, whereas making it from scratch might be beyond me . I'd have a start as materials and structure would be there and I could adapt as needed and learn from the mistakes I make with a model that's already there .

Now I realize that for those who strenuously cling to their creative rights and are copyright fanatics will find this concept odious , but there may be some creators who would be happy to bequeath their original model files to the trainz community for adaptation and non commercial use .

Ok, we have the DLS files but I think its a shame that many creators original 3D works will be deleted down the track because relatives have no use for them or don't know who to give them to .

is this impractical or what ?

Totally workable IMO, there was a thread that Peter, AKA Narrowgauge, brought this up in a year or so ago.

dangavel
January 21st, 2018, 09:22 PM
Totally workable IMO, there was a thread that Peter, AKA Narrowgauge, brought this up in a year or so ago.

I know a few creators have put their gmax files online on their own sites, but that's rather impermanent , perhaps there could be a section on DLS that if you are a registered creator who has pledged to not use the items for gain, you could access them via a separate login ?

johnwhelan
January 21st, 2018, 09:25 PM
Perhaps those of us who are older and have limited time remaining ( I'm in that club ) should consider what we do with our work once we are no longer actively working with Trainz or pass away .

Of course when we die or stop creating our knowledge is lost, but we could at least make sure that the original creations are available for others to use as a knowledge base.

For instance, I know that I could probably take another persons simple model and change it so it could become another item within blender, whereas making it from scratch might be beyond me . I'd have a start as materials and structure would be there and I could adapt as needed and learn from the mistakes I make with a model that's already there .

Now I realize that for those who strenuously cling to their creative rights and are copyright fanatics will find this concept odious , but there may be some creators who would be happy to bequeath their original model files to the trainz community for adaptation and non commercial use .

Ok, we have the DLS files but I think its a shame that many creators original 3D works will be deleted down the track because relatives have no use for them or don't know who to give them to .

is this impractical or what ?

I think one problem is just the sheer quantity of the stuff. Some of my old blender source files have a bit of corruption that has crept in. They evolve over time and when I go back to them the big problem is working out which source was used for which model.

Cheerio John

Cayden
January 21st, 2018, 10:32 PM
There is nothing overly difficult to learn mate. For animations, learn to use bones, lot easier than using just dummies. baking out normal, AO,
albedo, metal, emmissive and other associated PBR parts can be done inside Substance Painter and Sunstance Player to assemble them into the files that Trainz needs. Substance Painter can either be had by a subscription method of $24.90 AUD a month or an out right purchase of an Indie Lic for $149 USD once only. Substance Player is a free utility. FBX/trainzmesh is not all that different to using the old *.im format.

Has anyone successfully used Substance Painter to texture Blender models? Are there any models made using Substance Painter that can be viewed, e.g., Downloaded from the DLS? I wouldn't want to purchase Substance Painter only to find that I can't texture models made in Blender or get the mesh and the texture files into Trainz.

Does anyone know, when the 30 day free trial expires can one still play with the program exploring its feature or are you locked out?

Cayden

EverTrainz
January 21st, 2018, 10:47 PM
Has anyone successfully used Substance Painter to texture Blender model? Are there any model made using Substance Painter that can be viewed, e.g., Downloaded from the DLS? I wouldn't want to purchase Substance Painter only to find that I can'ttexture models made in Blender or get the mesh and the texture files into Trainz.

Does anyone know, when the 30 day credential expires can one still play with the program exploring its feature or are you locked out?

Cayden

Substance Painter takes .FBX, you can't import a .blend file directly. You are able to assign the Roughness, Metal, and Albedo textures to their respective channels in the export menu.

For Trainz you would have to assign the Green channel of the Parameters texture to Roughness, Alpha channel to Metal, and export the Albedo as its own texture. The Ambient Occlusion can be baked within Substance Painter but I haven't tried it so stick with the faithful Blender-baked AO maps. 90% of our creations do not use emissive and I don't think Substance Painter touches on it. So it will be left black. I don't know about the 30-day limit but I think it will just ask for a license as it is connected to the internet.

I think most people that decide to go forward CC'ing will get Substance Painter, and find that the workflow changes from being Blender/3DS to Trainz, to Blender/3DS to Substance Painter to Trainz .

Although very highly recommended, if you do not care for the PBR but want to create at the most recent build level you could at the least import into SP and set the "specular" and "reflective" properties for the material, playing around with it until it looks right.

pcas1986
January 22nd, 2018, 12:04 AM
Substance Painter takes .FBX, you can't import a .blend file directly. You are able to assign the Roughness, Metal, and Albedo textures to their respective channels in the export menu.
...


Ron's summation is similar to that suggested by CG Cookie in a (subscription) video tutorial. i.e. bake what you can, and load the FBX model plus those baked images into SP and SP will bake the other maps. The method of creating textures within Substance Painter is a bit mind blowing and will take a while to master.

In due course, I'd like to see lots of discussions about using Substance Painter with TRS18. There is potential to share materials that could save us an incredible amount of work.

In response to John's original post, I don't see this as doom and gloom but rather the opportunity to start making models that look really good. It might however, require the investment of time to learn some new techniques, and some monetary investment in some new tools.

I intend to add some tutorials to the N3V WiKi when I feel confident enough to publish. There is much about PBR I don't know but I do know how to make parameter textures out of other images.

Dinorius_Redundicus
January 22nd, 2018, 12:55 AM
I'm drowning, not waving.

dangavel
January 22nd, 2018, 01:49 AM
Ron's summation is similar to that suggested by CG Cookie in a (subscription) video tutorial. i.e. bake what you can, and load the FBX model plus those baked images into SP and SP will bake the other maps. The method of creating textures within Substance Painter is a bit mind blowing and will take a while to master.

In due course, I'd like to see lots of discussions about using Substance Painter with TRS18. There is potential to share materials that could save us an incredible amount of work.

In response to John's original post, I don't see this as doom and gloom but rather the opportunity to start making models that look really good. It might however, require the investment of time to learn some new techniques, and some monetary investment in some new tools.

I intend to add some tutorials to the N3V WiKi when I feel confident enough to publish. There is much about PBR I don't know but I do know how to make parameter textures out of other images.

People will continue to make content , but it might reflect their age more than ever. so far we have a lot of old timers who grew up during the steam age , but as we die off those who like more modern rail will more or less take over . We can see this process now, less and less older content apart from locos and rolling stock but much more modern content in general , less content from the english speaking world and most of that from the modern era.

Given it is much easier to make diesels and electrics than it is steam and that those who have grown up with diesel/electric are happy using these items ( with exceptions ) if we make it harder to make already complex items, the learning curve gets higher and more people are put off even starting .it gets harder to learn new things with age and often there's an issue of costs for older ( and younger people) not just for software, but for computers able to use software.

I taught media for 2 decades and I can tell you that there are probably fewer young people who are likely to take up 3d modeling then there were a decade ago as ( certainly here in australia at least ) not all that many have a great work ethic. Apart from that, its a very complex business and those who do like it are more likely to make models that they can use in role player games . So far I've never come across a student who modeled railways. probably 0.05 percent of people might dabble in 3d work in the first place, in 20 years 0% in my experience want to build 3d models of rail related stuff.

So NV3 may in a few years have to update the existing models for older routes themselves if they are going to keep these routes going , there is a dearth of stuff available for pre 1950 already and since TANE was introduced , a lot of the content one could use back in 2010 has disappeared off the radar. Sadly, I can just see this getting worse in future.

pcas1986
January 22nd, 2018, 03:22 AM
People will continue to make content , but it might reflect their age more than ever. so far we have a lot of old timers who grew up during the steam age , but as we die off those who like more modern rail will more or less take over . ... Sadly, I can just see this getting worse in future.

I fear that you are correct but, as someone who did grow up in the steam age, I have no intention of dying off just yet. :hehe: Since I retired, some nine years ago, I discovered a whole new world where I can create objects that I can use in a simulation. This is part of my plan to avoid some of the issues that affect older people. So I will continue to learn and experiment and, should I find something useful, then I will pass that information on to others.

Trainz is unique in that it offers creative stimulation to those who use it, and those who create routes, sessions and the necessary assets for those routes and sessions. I'd rather do that than sit around and watch mindless TV all day and turn into a vegetable.

amigacooke
January 22nd, 2018, 03:50 AM
Can I ask, do you think that Trainz Dev being a closed community has helped develope new content creators?

pcas1986
January 22nd, 2018, 04:19 AM
Can I ask, do you think that Trainz Dev being a closed community has helped develope new content creators?

I don't think so and it was never the intention of TrainzDev. You should read this post (https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?119970-What-is-Trainz-Dev&p=1404477#post1404477) and this post (https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?120386-Apology-to-non-members&p=1409458#post1409458) by Windwalkr. It might be a closed, or even privileged community, but we have an obligation to inform the wider community.

In the past we got to play with things that may, or may not, make into Trainz. A couple that haven't made it yet were the interactive route editing feature and Asset Editor which is the replacement for CCP. Asset Editor is in the current TrainzDev version but doesn't seemed to have progressed from the earlier version I saw.

The big item for this version of TrainzDev (aka TRS18) are the PBR materials and I think most of us are still trying to figure out how to do it.

I sometimes think we need a special project or activity to encourage new or potential creators to develop their own content. There are tutorials around but I'm thinking of a mentoring program.

dangavel
January 22nd, 2018, 04:43 AM
I fear that you are correct but, as someone who did grow up in the steam age, I have no intention of dying off just yet. :hehe: Since I retired, some nine years ago, I discovered a whole new world where I can create objects that I can use in a simulation. This is part of my plan to avoid some of the issues that affect older people. So I will continue to learn and experiment and, should I find something useful, then I will pass that information on to others.

Trainz is unique in that it offers creative stimulation to those who use it, and those who create routes, sessions and the necessary assets for those routes and sessions. I'd rather do that than sit around and watch mindless TV all day and turn into a vegetable.

Change is good, but only if its improves things for the better, TANE has been a very mixed bag of good and bad , but it would have been much better if it had removed a lot of existing faults with the old program and improved the surveyor interface , I was SO disappointed when I saw surveyor, hardly any new features that the program was crying out for , such as different color coding for object vs track spline points , selections that work, better use of textures, working rulers .
But its biggest issue was that it broke so many items that worked well previously. it was at least a year before I used it .

Trainz is my main interest in retirement, but it is a very frustrating program at times, one can plan to work on it for many years, but as I've found out recently , you never know when ill health will strike and limit what you can do daily. We need new blood to replace the old,but my chief concern is , if the learning curve gets too hard, it will affect the long term assets we can use and correspondingly, the routes we can drive.

Jango has not updated some of his masterpieces to work in TANE , most likely because there is so much work involved to get them to comply and he would rather be working on new routes. if many of us route builders are constantly having to just update all the time so their old creations will work with new incompatible software, it does become a chore and removes a lot of the fun quotient .

I suppose it all depends on how much the new version is incompatible with the old.if its like TANE was when it was first released ,then I fear we are going to be losing a lot of creators, one can only take so much change......

Lataxe
January 22nd, 2018, 06:05 AM
There are many motives that drive humans in being creative. Only one of them is a desire to make money. When this desire is portrayed (or even enforced) as the only legitimate motive for being creative, things tend to degrade to "least effort (and consequent low quality) for most profit". Read about the demise of PFI in Britain, as well as similar scenarios eslewhere, for an illustration of this. The international Art market is another variety of degradation-through-profit-addiction.

But those creators who create for the love of creating (and several other non-pecuniary motives) still have cost overheads. It would be no bad thing if we users of their creations could contribute to these overheads - the cost of software, computing resources and so forth. Creators could continue to create to their high standards, out of the joy of doing so, with no worries about it emptying their wallets if they don' sell sell sell.
Trainzkuidindex is a small realisation of such a scheme, perhaps.

Incidentally, I don't claim that any enterprise that makes a profit is automatically bad. Many enterprises have a multiplicity of motives additional to their profit motive - the desire for quality, utility of product, improvement of life and so forth. Sadly, such enterprises are becoming fewer, as the accountants sneer at anything not increasing the bottom line to max-black.
But I digress.

In addition to the cost overheads, the ever-accelerating changes to the software base of Trainz requires a steeper and steeper learning curve. Would profit-making stimulate creators to learn faster? Perhaps in some cases; but learning is also a form of creation and many like to learn new things for the sake of learning them, with all the associated pleasures and skills acquired, not least the ability to be persistent. :-)
NV3 seem intent on "upgrading" (that dreaded word in modern life) at an ever accelerating pace. This pace seems to create more bugs and glitches for all, including creators. Still ... that's modernity for you, especially in the domain of technology.

Lataxe, happy to contribute to a Creators' Fund, as well as coughing up for the odd bit of payware.

KenGreen
January 22nd, 2018, 06:38 AM
Why is there a need to produce the new assets for NEXT using the FBX exporter. Are the models so much better, are N3V expecting creators to produce professional quality models. If old methods were still allowed creators wouldn't be giving up. It is fine for those creators who like to experiment but some creators just want to see their models in Trainz it may not be as good as a FBX exported model but not all creators have artistic talent any way.

I recently uploaded some carriages build 3.6 and was surprised that there were so many errors listed. This was N3Vs attempt to try to only allow what they regard as efficient assets into Trianz, surely a more sensible idea would be to grade all assets on Content Manager by efficiency, 5 being the most efficient and 1 being only use at your peril and don't complain about. frame rates. If efficiency was published on CM then route builders and session creators would be able to assess the impact on their work.


Ken

pcas1986
January 22nd, 2018, 06:58 AM
Why is there a need to produce the new assets for NEXT using the FBX exporter. Are the models so much better, are N3V expecting creators to produce professional quality models. If old methods were still allowed creators wouldn't be giving up. It is fine for those creators who like to experiment but some creators just want to see their models in Trainz it may not be as good as a FBX exported model but not all creators have artistic talent any way.

Generally, there are no visual or performance differences between IM models and FBX based models once in TANE. (see * below) However, the new PBR materials are only supported for FBX. I expect IM to be around for a while.



...
I recently uploaded some carriages build 3.6 and was surprised that there were so many errors listed. This was N3Vs attempt to try to only allow what they regard as efficient assets into Trianz, surely a more sensible idea would be to grade all assets on Content Manager by efficiency, 5 being the most efficient and 1 being only use at your peril and don't complain about. frame rates. If efficiency was published on CM then route builders and session creators would be able to assess the impact on their work.


Ken


Preview Asset already provides information that can be used to form an opinion on the efficiency of an asset. Poly count alone might be a rough indication but that is ameliorated by the use of LOD. About the most useful measure is the number of draw calls. The lower the better and the lowest LOD should be close to, or preferably, 1. I doubt if many of the "average" Trainz users know about or understand Preview Asset.

An error free asset, or even an asset that gets good numbers in Preview Asset, may not be a good asset. The CRG is constantly finding assets that pass validation but just don't work. These get added to the working faulty list. At the last count there was only 5970 to repair. :eek:

(*) The model meshes are the same but there are likely to be differences in animation. The animation in FBX is created differently so there may be some variation.

dangavel
January 22nd, 2018, 07:10 AM
There are many motives that drive humans in being creative. Only one of them is a desire to make money. When this desire is portrayed (or even enforced) as the only legitimate motive for being creative, things tend to degrade to "least effort (and consequent low quality) for most profit". Read about the demise of PFI in Britain, as well as similar scenarios eslewhere, for an illustration of this. The international Art market is another variety of degradation-through-profit-addiction.

But those creators who create for the love of creating (and several other non-pecuniary motives) still have cost overheads. It would be no bad thing if we users of their creations could contribute to these overheads - the cost of software, computing resources and so forth. Creators could continue to create to their high standards, out of the joy of doing so, with no worries about it emptying their wallets if they don' sell sell sell.
Trainzkuidindex is a small realisation of such a scheme, perhaps.

Incidentally, I don't claim that any enterprise that makes a profit is automatically bad. Many enterprises have a multiplicity of motives additional to their profit motive - the desire for quality, utility of product, improvement of life and so forth. Sadly, such enterprises are becoming fewer, as the accountants sneer at anything not increasing the bottom line to max-black.
But I digress.

In addition to the cost overheads, the ever-accelerating changes to the software base of Trainz requires a steeper and steeper learning curve. Would profit-making stimulate creators to learn faster? Perhaps in some cases; but learning is also a form of creation and many like to learn new things for the sake of learning them, with all the associated pleasures and skills acquired, not least the ability to be persistent. :-)
NV3 seem intent on "upgrading" (that dreaded word in modern life) at an ever accelerating pace. This pace seems to create more bugs and glitches for all, including creators. Still ... that's modernity for you, especially in the domain of technology.

Lataxe, happy to contribute to a Creators' Fund, as well as coughing up for the odd bit of payware.

Same here , i'd happily pay towards items that could be used in particular eras ( such as 1920/30s US trucks and busses ) wheres there are shortages of assets.

its just occurred to me that NV3 could encourage content creation doing a deal with autodesk to provide something like what adobe does for photoshop. a monthly subscription which is validated by a few rules, such as providing screenshots of work in progress, and being unable to keep on if one has not created anything for Trainz in a certain time period, or being able to miss months when you do not pay as you aren't in a position to create . Also negotiating group rates to use Lynda Blender tutorials would be a good way to start off blender users. its made the program a lot easier to navigate after i watched a few(Australian trainzers can possibly watch these for free from their local library online my local library provides the service for free)

its probably impractical, but helping in some way to provide the tools for content creators would be a really good way of NV3 expanding its content creator base.

clam1952
January 22nd, 2018, 07:18 AM
The FBX format is used by many current games and many current 3d modelling programs, meaning you are not restricted to only using Gmax, 3dsMax Blender or 3d Crafter which are the only programs with IM exporters, FBX which is an industry standard exporter, also supports the more modern aspects of content creation required such as Paul says PBR.

Asset efficiency? Quick and dirty method.
Monitor Frame rates, Load Asset in preview asset, change the drop down to performance which loads hundreds of said asset and watch the frame rates, if there is not too much of a drop you are good to go, if as with some assets the FPS drops to zero or close, it is a bad inefficient asset. A lot of the very high poly 3d people and cars without LOD will kill frame rates if you use a lot of them.

2995Valliant
January 22nd, 2018, 07:44 AM
The converse is possible and the new features may attract new creators. There have been creators in the past who have been frustrated the poor appearance of the creations in Trainz vs renders and other simulators. It was one of the reasons Arraial moved on, and I think why one or two others went "elsewhere".

If fbx is becoming a standard format then will we see in the future a pool of models as per Sketchup (damn, I said it!) that will be available to all to convert to the sim of their choice?

At the end of the day N3V can't please everyone. Many posting on this thread will remember threads in the past about how poor the game was with the old Jet engine, how they'd never build a new engine, and how the game was doomed to whither and die. Well it clearly didn't and this is just the next challenge with a different group of users concerned (not unreasonably I hasten to add) for the future.

KenGreen
January 22nd, 2018, 08:48 AM
Ah i'm beginning to understand a bit better now, it is the material type that can be used with FBX that is important.
Is there a reference somewhere to the new material types.

I mentioned the point about efficiency on CM as a quick guide as which assets to avoid. The preview screen is okay but I thought a summary might be easier to understand when looking at many items.

Ken

Edit found this
http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/Material_Types#PBR_Material_Types

borderreiver
January 22nd, 2018, 10:05 AM
I have an opinion as an owner of a large amount of payware, which I began to accrue in 2011. Each new iteration of Trainz breaks a number of assets and definitely imposes a "service life" on them. I am probably going to be less likely to spend my money on commissioning assets if I find that I get only a couple of years of life out of them.

As for UK assets and routes, T:ANE is almost ready to be replaced by N3V and close on three years after T:ANE launched the Potteries Loop Line is still not released in a T:ANE version. This must be due, in part, to the sheer amount of work required of its creators in fixing broken and obsolete assets. T:ANE came with the ECML between Kings Cross and Edinburgh included. Will "Trainz 2018" even come with a UK route bundled with it? The ECML is a large route and I can imagine it being just too large to knock in to shape for "Trainz 2018", never mind extend the Scottish end of the route to include either Dundee, Aberdeen or Glasgow Queen Street.

I have a small route which I am slowly pushing towards releasing on to the DLS and it has taken me almost a year of working in my spare time to get it this far. I hope that it is of sufficient quality to be of use to some of the community, but if "Trainz 2018" breaks it a couple of months on I am likely not going to bother doing another.

sumitsingh
January 22nd, 2018, 10:47 AM
I hope I will be able to create such bumps and dents in new version of TRAINZ.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4742/39803719792_34fc02ff13_o.jpg

sumitsingh
January 22nd, 2018, 10:52 AM
All kinds of simulator have turned into business basically now a days.

whitepass
January 22nd, 2018, 11:01 AM
Working with FBX and PBR is not that hard after you get your head around it. Your workflow will be the biggest change.

JCitron
January 22nd, 2018, 11:04 AM
I hope I will be able to create such bumps and dents in new version of TRAINZ.



Yes you should be able to use such things.

I recommend signing up for the N3V newsletter, which comes weekly with bits of news, development information, and opportunities to sign up for beta testing when that is needed.

You may want to look at the current articles, which were in the newsletter originally there's some interesting and good information in here.

https://forums.auran.com/trainz/content.php

normhart
January 22nd, 2018, 11:56 AM
This may be tangential to this conversation but I feel that it is relevant. In my mind the greatest strength of the Trainz brand is not killer graphics, nor wicked smart AIs, it is the four hundred thousand assets available in the database. So far as I know there is no other train simulator/game that even comes within an order of magnitude of having so many possibilities and so much versatility.

How N3V can turn this strength into marketability seems to me to be far more important than nifty new graphics.

Rather than continuing to obsolete assets N3V should be looking toward programming that works to automatically include older assets, automatically update older assets.

A focus on providing a stable platform that highlights this remarkable versatility and showcases the wide range of possibilities from the earliest days of railroading to trainz on Marz and the truly international scope of both trains and routes would be a far better choice than this relentless drive toward cutting edge graphics.

Just my opinion. :wave:

clam1952
January 22nd, 2018, 01:23 PM
Automatically updating assets is never likely to happen let alone be possible, just far too many variables to consider. However with the new effects in 2018 it will automatically improve the appearance of some items anyway, leastwise that's the plan as I read it somewhere!

JCitron
January 22nd, 2018, 02:02 PM
This may be tangential to this conversation but I feel that it is relevant. In my mind the greatest strength of the Trainz brand is not killer graphics, nor wicked smart AIs, it is the four hundred thousand assets available in the database. So far as I know there is no other train simulator/game that even comes within an order of magnitude of having so many possibilities and so much versatility.

How N3V can turn this strength into marketability seems to me to be far more important than nifty new graphics.

Rather than continuing to obsolete assets N3V should be looking toward programming that works to automatically include older assets, automatically update older assets.

A focus on providing a stable platform that highlights this remarkable versatility and showcases the wide range of possibilities from the earliest days of railroading to trainz on Marz and the truly international scope of both trains and routes would be a far better choice than this relentless drive toward cutting edge graphics.

Just my opinion. :wave:

This would be ideal, but due to all the variations in assets I think that would be impossible, but your thoughts are not totally off the wall. In the Trainz Dev forum, there was a discussion regarding automatically generating LOD targets among other things to help smooth out operations. If this is were to happen, then that's one area which the content creators don't need to pay attention to and they can focus their efforts on other things.

johnwhelan
January 22nd, 2018, 03:13 PM
I have an opinion as an owner of a large amount of payware, which I began to accrue in 2011. Each new iteration of Trainz breaks a number of assets and definitely imposes a "service life" on them. I am probably going to be less likely to spend my money on commissioning assets if I find that I get only a couple of years of life out of them.



One thing I have done is recycled texture files. So as the highly detailed underframes have come available so the textures on the top bit ie wagons and vans have been moved to the more detailed underframes. I ought to do a few more LNER reskins sometime.

Cheerio John

2995Valliant
January 22nd, 2018, 03:43 PM
I have an opinion as an owner of a large amount of payware, which I began to accrue in 2011. Each new iteration of Trainz breaks a number of assets and definitely imposes a "service life" on them. I am probably going to be less likely to spend my money on commissioning assets if I find that I get only a couple of years of life out of them.

As for UK assets and routes, T:ANE is almost ready to be replaced by N3V and close on three years after T:ANE launched the Potteries Loop Line is still not released in a T:ANE version. This must be due, in part, to the sheer amount of work required of its creators in fixing broken and obsolete assets. T:ANE came with the ECML between Kings Cross and Edinburgh included. Will "Trainz 2018" even come with a UK route bundled with it? The ECML is a large route and I can imagine it being just too large to knock in to shape for "Trainz 2018", never mind extend the Scottish end of the route to include either Dundee, Aberdeen or Glasgow Queen Street.

I have a small route which I am slowly pushing towards releasing on to the DLS and it has taken me almost a year of working in my spare time to get it this far. I hope that it is of sufficient quality to be of use to some of the community, but if "Trainz 2018" breaks it a couple of months on I am likely not going to bother doing another.

I get the impression that the core changes have now happened, so while new features will be added, what works now will likely continue to do so.

Everything I have had since 2004 days which I have needed or wished to bring over to T:ANE with me I have successfully done. If you need any help upgrading older assets there are of plenty of people, myself included, who can help.

JAGG
January 23rd, 2018, 06:37 AM
Whatever new Trainz will come, I need to get older assets functional in it, at least manual way, and looking well, otherways new Trainz not interesting for me. TANE already brought some regulations which avoid using of some assets at all (irreparable even manually). Some of those regulations were not really necessary by my opinon. According to some official statements I have read, new Trainz should bring even more massive regulations for the older assets, as for the look of the assets using genuine materials but mainly those heavily scripted, this would make use of lot of assets impossible having impact on limited number of routes to be playable etc. I am rather skeptic especially when see no satisfactory progress in current TANE...

johnwhelan
January 23rd, 2018, 07:42 AM
Whatever new Trainz will come, I need to get older assets functional in it, at least manual way, and looking well, otherways new Trainz not interesting for me. TANE already brought some regulations which avoid using of some assets at all (irreparable even manually). Some of those regulations were not really necessary by my opinon. According to some official statements I have read, new Trainz should bring even more massive regulations for the older assets, as for the look of the assets using genuine materials but mainly those heavily scripted, this would make use of lot of assets impossible having impact on limited number of routes to be playable etc. I am rather skeptic especially when see no satisfactory progress in current TANE...

For the most part content can be updated without too many problems. Scripts can be replaced and some are more robust than others. One solid script can be repeated on many assets. I think my concerns are more along the lines of the new materials and methods of content creation that are appearing and these seem to be raising the barrier to entry.

Cheerio John

JAGG
January 23rd, 2018, 08:25 AM
Well, so far I didn't find the way how to update splines including initiator and terminator (some informations say that meshes for initiator and terminator must be created from central point to minus y axis, but I cannot make working also such). Another irreparable asset issue are "payware" tagged items which previously were not payware at all. Third irreparable issue are assets with JIRF header missing. I don't count the 32-bit speedtreees...

borderreiver
January 23rd, 2018, 01:44 PM
My view is similar to that of an earlier poster, that one of trainz's strongest appeals is the sheer amount of content on the DLS. Sure, some of it is better than others but "the competitor" sim has nothing like that available, either in size or freedom of use. Trainz payware has its place, and I am an afficonado, but my guess is that many users like what they can get on the DLS. If N3V want to keep ditching thousands of assets at each iteration of trainz but keep shrinking the number of creators able to step in to produce new content then what is the ultimate destination for N3V? If asset creation also takes twice as long per asset the output falls even further. I think that UK content is already under significant threat of falling by the wayside.

BlackDiamond1964
January 23rd, 2018, 01:55 PM
but my guess is that many users like what they can get on the DLS. .

If you can handle the incredibly slow speed of the DLS. I think most just walk away instead of waiting 2+ hours to download a descent locomotive and all it's dependencies.

KenGreen
January 23rd, 2018, 02:40 PM
If you can handle the incredibly slow speed of the DLS. I think most just walk away instead of waiting 2+ hours to download a descent locomotive and all it's dependencies.

I think a lot of them would buy either a 30 day or 3 month FCT and download what they want.

Ken

borderreiver
January 23rd, 2018, 02:45 PM
I took advantage of a lifetime FCT several years ago, but my internet connection at home is adequate to download quickly. Some contention at busy times such as holiday weekends is unavoidable. I appreciate that some folks have connections more suited to 1998 or 2008 rather than 2018. That means their Trainz experience is possibly going to get even slower come "Trainz 2018".

BlackDiamond1964
January 23rd, 2018, 02:50 PM
I think a lot of them would buy a 30 day FCT and download what they want.

Ken

That's the problem, and that is why people walk away. In the end it's always about the money. It's not about a hobby, it's not about trains, it's definitely not about a community...it's about money, pure an simple. The DLS is set at such a low speed you are forced into spending yet more money to get a download speed that is the same at any free web sites... it's this kind of money grab that is killing Railworks and it's this that will kill Trainz...Like it or not, it's the truth.

johnwhelan
January 23rd, 2018, 02:55 PM
If you can handle the incredibly slow speed of the DLS. I think most just walk away instead of waiting 2+ hours to download a descent locomotive and all it's dependencies.

A First Class Ticket isn't that bad but you do have to say to start them.

Cheerio John

KenGreen
January 23rd, 2018, 03:17 PM
That's the problem, and that is why people walk away. In the end it's always about the money. It's not about a hobby, it's not about trains, it's definitely not about a community...it's about money, pure an simple. The DLS is set at such a low speed you are forced into spending yet more money to get a download speed that is the same at any free web sites... it's this kind of money grab that is killing Railworks and it's this that will kill Trainz...Like it or not, it's the truth.


FCTs are relatively cheap.

Ken

SailorDan
January 23rd, 2018, 03:24 PM
Well, so far I didn't find the way how to update splines including initiator and terminator (some informations say that meshes for initiator and terminator must be created from central point to minus y axis, but I cannot make working also such).
Splines that were broken by the latest updates were created incorrectly in the first place. Either the initiators/terminators had their Y-axis the wrong way around, or (more commonly) the mesh didn't start at 0 on the y-axis. Splines created correctly according to the published rules work just fine, and can be updated to the latest build easily if desired.

BlackDiamond1964
January 23rd, 2018, 03:32 PM
A First Class Ticket isn't that bad but you do have to say to start them.

Cheerio John

After the big donation I gave for TANE...for which I never received what was promised to me. After buying many first class tickets and contributing many creations to the DLStation, I still have to dish out yet more money to stay involved in the hobby or deal with that embarrassingly slow download speeds... Not to mention that everybody and their mother is only seems to be interested in creating payware anymore, so if you want something with a hint of quality get ready to part with more of your money. This franchise seems to be all about keeping a certain groups of people employed instead of making a quality program that everybody enjoys. This is all just the monetary aspects of what is killing Trainz. There is still all the content creator side, as soon as you get a grasp on the building in the sim, they raise the standards of model building even higher. Also, by the time you finish your project, so much time has gone by that it is most likely obsolete. Why would anybody want put up with all that? I'm not even going to get into the over all declining of the quality of people in the Trainz community and how some people are more privileged and segregated by how much money they have paid. If you really want to make a rail sim, N3V has shown us what not to do to be successful.

The only way a rails sim is going to survive is to have a massive community working on an open source program like in Blender. Where ideas come in from the community and not just a privileged few.

pcas1986
January 23rd, 2018, 03:39 PM
...Third irreparable issue are assets with JIRF header missing....

JIRF is an identifier in a mesh file. Can you give an example of an affected asset? I'm curious.

pware
January 23rd, 2018, 05:11 PM
After the big donation I gave for TANE...for which I never received what was promised to me. After buying many first class tickets and contributing many creations to the DLStation, I still have to dish out yet more money to stay involved in the hobby or deal with that embarrassingly slow download speeds... Not to mention that everybody and their mother is only seems to be interested in creating payware anymore, so if you want something with a hint of quality get ready to part with more of your money.

Name me a hobby these days that does not involve a continuous output of money to keep yourself going - even stamp collecting requires a constant supply of materials. We have had these discussions over the FCT before - servers and bandwidth still do not come cheap, despite cheaper technology and increased competition between suppliers.

My mother is not the least bit interested in Trainz and I have no interest in creating payware. It is too much of a hassle - you are expected to provide support 24/7 and then there are the tax issues. But I do not blame creators for wanting to make some money out of their hobby if they think that their work is good enough, and it is us users who will ultimately make that assessment. With payware you have to spend your time creating what you think people are interested in buying. With DLS freeware you spend your time doing what you enjoy and creating what you want and if no-one downloads it then it does not matter because you have not wasted your time.


This franchise seems to be all about keeping a certain groups of people employed instead of making a quality program that everybody enjoys. This is all just the monetary aspects of what is killing Trainz.

This argument resurfaces every time there are new product announcements in Trainz. Auran/N3V is not a charity, it is a business. It has to pay wages, taxes, utility bills, insurance, rent (of servers and bandwith if nothing else) and it has to keep ahead or, at the very least, up with the competition. By "stagnating" just to keep some users happy, Trainz will disappear then who will benefit?. I would be interested in hearing who you think are the "certain groups of people" that they are keeping employed?

I think that making a program that everyone enjoys is an interesting concept. Just look at the threads in the Suggestion Boxcar forum and you will see all the different directions that people want Trainz to head of into. Curved baseboards that would allow the entire surface of Earth to be modelled as a sphere was a recent interesting one.


There is still all the content creator side, as soon as you get a grasp on the building in the sim, they raise the standards of model building even higher. Also, by the time you finish your project, so much time has gone by that it is most likely obsolete. Why would anybody want put up with all that?

If you create assets that work perfectly in TRS2004 then there is nothing stopping you from using those assets in TRS2004 for as long as you have TRS2004 on your system. You do not have to move up to TRS2006, TS2009, TS2010, TS12 or TANE. The forum regularly gets posts from users who have decided that they are not going to move to the next version of Trainz and will stay using their current (or an already obsolete) version "forever". It is amazing how many of those same users popup again in the forums some time later with the new version registered on their timeline.


I'm not even going to get into the over all declining of the quality of people in the Trainz community and how some people are more privileged and segregated by how much money they have paid.

Well that is a "slap in the face" to a lot of people in these forums. I really cannot make any sense of that passage except to assume that it was made in anger and will be regretted later.


If you really want to make a rail sim, N3V has shown us what not to do to be successful.

How long has Trainz been in the market? What happened to MSTS? Where are all the freeware train sims in terms of market share, user base, progress, etc. How much does it cost to buy assets from that "other rail sim", the one from DTG?

You seem to have a strange idea of what "success" looks like. Again, I suspect that remark was made without really thinking things through.


The only way a rails sim is going to survive is to have a massive community working on an open source program like in Blender. Where ideas come in from the community and not just a privileged few.

I have had Blender for many years now (I even keep it up to date), and have had GMax even longer. But I have never been able to make any sense of those CAD programs. I suspect that most other users are the same. If any individual has the time, patience and ability to use those programs to make a locomotive (it can even be an "Alco", I don't care) then I will happily put them up on a pedestal and sing hymns to their name. Unfortunately, Train Sims will never be a "massive community" because it is very much a small niche market so we definitely need the "privileged few".

My thoughts only.
Peter

sumitsingh
January 23rd, 2018, 05:46 PM
The statement is very true.


"Train Sims will never be a "massive community"

Many developers even don't asks the community before they release a new game.

It is not just a game, it is hobby..:)

sumitsingh
January 23rd, 2018, 06:30 PM
This render engine supports PBR in Blender also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SoNUeAPtgk
It is free also.
https://pro.radeon.com/en/radeon-prorender-for-blender-and-solidworks-now-available/

Contents will be now more easier to create as Blender can export FBX.
No need to hang around with old plugins.
Only Blender is a little annoying for new users probably.
I also found it difficult in the beginning but the resources on YOUTUBE are helpful.

CeeBee
January 23rd, 2018, 06:41 PM
Name me a hobby these days that does not involve a continuous output of money to keep yourself going - even stamp collecting requires a constant supply of materials. We have had these discussions over the FCT before - servers and bandwidth still do not come cheap, despite cheaper technology and increased competition between suppliers.

My mother is not the least bit interested in Trainz and I have no interest in creating payware. It is too much of a hassle - you are expected to provide support 24/7 and then there are the tax issues. But I do not blame creators for wanting to make some money out of their hobby if they think that their work is good enough, and it is us users who will ultimately make that assessment. With payware you have to spend your time creating what you think people are interested in buying. With DLS freeware you spend your time doing what you enjoy and creating what you want and if no-one downloads it then it does not matter because you have not wasted your time.



This argument resurfaces every time there are new product announcements in Trainz. Auran/N3V is not a charity, it is a business. It has to pay wages, taxes, utility bills, insurance, rent (of servers and bandwith if nothing else) and it has to keep ahead or, at the very least, up with the competition. By "stagnating" just to keep some users happy, Trainz will disappear then who will benefit?. I would be interested in hearing who you think are the "certain groups of people" that they are keeping employed?

I think that making a program that everyone enjoys is an interesting concept. Just look at the threads in the Suggestion Boxcar forum and you will see all the different directions that people want Trainz to head of into. Curved baseboards that would allow the entire surface of Earth to be modelled as a sphere was a recent interesting one.



If you create assets that work perfectly in TRS2004 then there is nothing stopping you from using those assets in TRS2004 for as long as you have TRS2004 on your system. You do not have to move up to TRS2006, TS2009, TS2010, TS12 or TANE. The forum regularly gets posts from users who have decided that they are not going to move to the next version of Trainz and will stay using their current (or an already obsolete) version "forever". It is amazing how many of those same users popup again in the forums some time later with the new version registered on their timeline.



Well that is a "slap in the face" to a lot of people in these forums. I really cannot make any sense of that passage except to assume that it was made in anger and will be regretted later.



How long has Trainz been in the market? What happened to MSTS? Where are all the freeware train sims in terms of market share, user base, progress, etc. How much does it cost to buy assets from that "other rail sim", the one from DTG?

You seem to have a strange idea of what "success" looks like. Again, I suspect that remark was made without really thinking things through.



I have had Blender for many years now (I even keep it up to date), and have had GMax even longer. But I have never been able to make any sense of those CAD programs. I suspect that most other users are the same. If any individual has the time, patience and ability to use those programs to make a locomotive (it can even be an "Alco", I don't care) then I will happily put them up on a pedestal and sing hymns to their name. Unfortunately, Train Sims will never be a "massive community" because it is very much a small niche market so we definitely need the "privileged few".

My thoughts only.
Peter

Thanks for that well written post, Peter :)

BlackDiamond1964
January 23rd, 2018, 06:43 PM
pware...Thanks for your opinion. You can stay and build Trainz to your heart content. The rest will be moving on to something else. At best, there will be a few new faces but will quickly move on because of the reasons I mentioned above. At some point you and everybody else will have to look at these issues in a real life perspective and not through some kind of fan boy fantasy wish.

You can argue all the points you want, but in the end you know I'm right. Potential content creators are, and will continue to be turned off to what this sim has become.

BlackDiamond1964
January 23rd, 2018, 06:47 PM
Thanks for that well written post, Peter :)

For a person that has been around as long as I have been, you should know better. Think back to the beginning on what was Trainz was supposed to be. Now look at what it has become.

gawpo50
January 23rd, 2018, 07:04 PM
Far better than the competition

dangavel
January 23rd, 2018, 07:44 PM
pware...Thanks for your opinion. You can stay and build Trainz to your heart content. The rest will be moving on to something else. At best, there will be a few new faces but will quickly move on because of the reasons I mentioned above. At some point you and everybody else will have to look at these issues in a real life perspective and not through some kind of fan boy fantasy wish.

You can argue all the points you want, but in the end you know I'm right. Potential content creators are, and will continue to be turned off to what this sim has become.


Although i am very critical of NV3 at times, I think you are considerably over egging the cake . Just because you feel angry and disillusioned about the entire sim doesn't mean everyone else is . Try not to project your feelings onto the rest of us, because you cannot assume that we are all sharing your thoughts.

My annoyance with NV3 is that they potentially have a great sim which needs a few tweaks to make it easier to make routes , I want them to consolidate , improve the surveyor interface and make sure that their next few iterations go more smoothly then they have recently. Ive suggested that any changes allow older assets to work , or that they provide subsidized access to software or training to make life easier for content creators.or they establish a team of their own to get widely used items to work . if they provided service packs of updated items for a charge I'd be happy to pay for them.

By being so unrelentingly negative you are are hardly helping NV3 be great again are you ? Some suggestions as to how they could improve the next version would be more constructive than just bagging them .In my experience their charges for DLS are pretty reasonable and its a much better speed now than it used to be .

BlackDiamond1964
January 23rd, 2018, 08:17 PM
By being so unrelentingly negative you are are hardly helping NV3 be great again are you ? Some suggestions as to how they could improve the next version would be more constructive than just bagging them .In my experience their charges for DLS are pretty reasonable and its a much better speed now than it used to be .

I'm not being negative or positive. Keeping with the OP, these are the reasons why people are leaving. These are the reasons why you don't see too many new faces. I'm not just talking about Trainz either, Railworks is seeing similar issues. You can praise N3V all you want but without some changes in the near future, there will be no reason for people to invest so much time and money into this sim. They will find other easier sims or games to get into.

For some reason the fanboys here just want to sugar coat the inevitable.

As far as making this a better sim with my own input...I was shut out from that. I guess I didn't give N3V enough money for them to listen to me. Some of the blame was directly N3V's fault which I'm sure they don't want me to discuss here. At this point I really don't care about it either. It's their loss, not mine. Most post about content creation that I did involve myself in went unanswered anyway. Many general post that I made, the Trainz community showed no interest in. Even when I was asking for direct input.

I'm glad that people enjoy Trainz, but there are reasons why it's not continuing to be successful, I gave you some of those reasons. Do with it what you will.

CeeBee
January 23rd, 2018, 08:17 PM
For a person that has been around as long as I have been, you should know better. Think back to the beginning on what was Trainz was supposed to be. Now look at what it has become.
If you want a cheap hobby take up train spotting then. Might be more relaxing as well. :) I'm pretty sure no one is forcing you to buy every version of Trainz but I guess some people will never be happy.

pcas1986
January 23rd, 2018, 08:23 PM
...Ive suggested that any changes allow older assets to work , or that they provide subsidized access to software or training to make life easier for content creators.or they establish a team of their own to get widely used items to work . if they provided service packs of updated items for a charge I'd be happy to pay for them. ...

They have a team, the Content Repair Group, and you don't need to pay anything. The Charter of the CRG forbids improvements to assets: they are only allowed to fix them.

Back on the main thread: I've spent way more money on tools to help me make content than the cost of the sim itself. Like others have said, its a hobby for me so I don't mind the cost.

pcas1986
January 23rd, 2018, 08:25 PM
...

For some reason the fanboys here just want to sugar coat the inevitable.
...

That description is offensive. Please remove it.

BlackDiamond1964
January 23rd, 2018, 08:27 PM
If you want a cheap hobby take up train spotting then. Might be more relaxing as well. :) I'm pretty sure no one is forcing you to buy every version of Trainz but I guess some people will never be happy.

You are right that is why I'm no longer creating content...in either sim.

SailorDan
January 23rd, 2018, 08:38 PM
Many general post that I made, the Trainz community showed no interest in. Even when I was asking for direct input.
I can't imagine why that might have been.

BlackDiamond1964
January 23rd, 2018, 08:58 PM
I can't imagine why that might have been.

Yes, I realize all the Australian fanboys are going to try to bait me into an argument...it won't work. This is why people leave plain and simple. Some people can control themselves. They aren't happy unless they are making some childish comments. That just prove their lack of maturity...and that is one thing this place definitely lacks.

EverTrainz
January 23rd, 2018, 09:21 PM
I'm not being negative or positive. Keeping with the OP, these are the reasons why people are leaving.

I'm not sure that the intent of the OP was to turn this into an argument on why creators are throwing fits and leaving just to poke their nose into these forums months later. I'm sure the intention of this thread was to look at why there are not many creators left (emphasized in post #1, especially in the UK scene), and how more creation could be encouraged. It looks like your first post here mentioned there being nothing keeping creators staying with Trainz. But have you seen the new materials? Do they look anything like the previous materials? Definitely an improvement in visuals, and what pulled me back to Trainz around September, after my frustration with materials looking outdated.

I don't want any trouble but if you are done with Trainz and have given up all hope, what are you going to gain by pointing fingers and causing trouble on these forums?

I wonder what the nationality has to do with it all... Australian fanboys?


... They aren't happy unless they are making some childish comments ...

Barry
January 23rd, 2018, 09:23 PM
An interesting read. However as my interests were mainly maritime I made drivable barges and ships in Trainz initially and coastal areas by offsetting the couplings fpr the canal barges.

Blender came next and made content in the Blender Game Engine mainly maritime. Again times change and there is talk of changes to the Blender Game Engine so again that seems to be not worth pursuing now. Compexity growing in all directions. I thought OpenRails might be the answer as open source but still no official route editor and 7 years now i think so not worth waiting further.

Considering joining the Trainz bandwagon again over the years but does not appeal and no longer practical.

Originally Trainz started with the idea of integrated transport ships and rail... was it 2002? and that would have appealed if simplifed and using Blender made content in Trainz which is relatativley easy to make... if keeping to basics as never could understand gmax. So at present I have deleted all my Blender made content which I used in the Blender Game Engine which might have exported into Trainz?.

Unfortunately the powers that be in Trainz seemed incapable of understanding that Blender made content whether for Trainz or to used in the Blender Game Engine were one and the same thing and identical and even the mention of Blender years ago was ridiculed by forum members !!.

Barry

pware
January 23rd, 2018, 09:26 PM
They aren't happy unless they are making some childish comments. That just prove their lack of maturity...and that is one thing this place definitely lacks.

I will agree with you there. Here are two examples, in this thread, of childish comments.


I'm not even going to get into the over all declining of the quality of people in the Trainz community and how some people are more privileged and segregated by how much money they have paid.


For some reason the fanboys here just want to sugar coat the inevitable.

It seems that whenever their arguments turns to water, some posters resort to attacking the community and labeling all opposing views as coming from "fanboys".

BlackDiamond1964
January 23rd, 2018, 10:26 PM
It seems that whenever their arguments turns to water, some posters resort to attacking the community and labeling all opposing views as coming from "fanboys".

Because that is exactly what you are. No listening to reason, always in attack mode to somebody that has a opinion different from your own. This forum is full of them.

BlackDiamond1964
January 23rd, 2018, 10:30 PM
I wonder what the nationality has to do with it all... Australian fanboys?

Because I've gone through this before...just ask Zek.

pware
January 23rd, 2018, 10:51 PM
Scott,

Both you and I are expressing opinions. Our opinions are on opposite side of the discussion and I thought, perhaps wrongly, that I was presenting reasoned arguments. So why do my statements represent some sort of "attack mode"?

BlackDiamond1964
January 23rd, 2018, 11:14 PM
Scott,

Both you and I are expressing opinions. Our opinions are on opposite side of the discussion and I thought, perhaps wrongly, that I was presenting reasoned arguments. So why do my statements represent some sort of "attack mode"?


I can say the same thing. Why are your buds attacking me with their off topic comments? Why? Because that is what they do...all the time. This is why people leave...my point has been proven, my point has been made.

I'm not here to debate the ins and outs of Trainz or the business model of N3V. I'm here to simply say why people don't stick around by using my own experiences.

pware
January 23rd, 2018, 11:43 PM
Scott,

I do not have any "buds". Other people are free to put forward their points of view from any directions they like.

True, some people have very strong opinions (on all sides of any question) and they can let their emotions control their reasoning.

Making your point (putting it forward forcefully) and proving it (backing it up with evidence) are not the same thing.

People leave the Trainz community all the time and for a wide variety of reasons, including disillusionment. I have been a member of several Train Historical and Preservation groups in my time and the same thing has happened there. Those groups are still around despite dire predictions from those who left "less than happy".

I was one of the early adopters of Trainz and have seen many come and go in that time. You are obviously a disgruntled leaver but your reasons and experiences will not be the same as everyone else. There are new arrivals coming in, judging from the large number of first time posters who have appeared recently, who can take the place of those who leave. Some of those will go on to become valued content creators, others will leave because Trainz is "not for them". This has always been the case and always will be.

I appreciate your concerns for the future of Trainz but to say that it has no relation to the business model or workings of N3V is missing the point. Without N3V making the money it needs to survive, there would be no Trainz.

BlackDiamond1964
January 24th, 2018, 12:35 AM
I do not have any "buds". Other people are free to put forward their points of view from any directions they like.

You may not have buds but other sure do, and we all know who those groups are.


True, some people have very strong opinions (on all sides of any question) and they can let their emotions control their reasoning.

Some of what I'm reading are not opinions, they are attacks.


Making your point (putting it forward forcefully) and proving it (backing it up with evidence) are not the same thing.

I'm not aloud to give actual evidence, we all know the hall monitors here will boot me if I do.


You are obviously a disgruntled leaver but your reasons and experiences will not be the same as everyone else.

Disgruntled? That is a little harsh. My reasons and same experiences have been brought up many times before by other users. Now just like back then, they were attacked for speaking up. It's not like I'm alone in these thoughts.


I appreciate your concerns for the future of Trainz but to say that it has no relation to the business model or workings of N3V is missing the point. Without N3V making the money it needs to survive, there would be no Trainz.

Yes, but when it's becoming more about being a cash grab then being about the sim, it becomes a turn off for a lot of people. The DLStation is a good example of that...they feel it's best to try and make people get so frustration at the slow download speeds the'll run out and buy a first class ticket. I'm sorry I expect more from a company that I'm giving my money to. Add to that the fact that I donated my work to the DLStation, I get nothing in return for my efforts. You can't say that this is a good deal for any content creator. It actually a slap in the face if you ask me.

pware
January 24th, 2018, 01:56 AM
You may not have buds but other sure do, and we all know who those groups are.

I hope that this is not a continuation of the "flame war" that erupted in these forums a few days ago. If it is then it explains a great deal to me.


I'm not aloud to give actual evidence, we all know the hall monitors here will boot me if I do.

A strange answer. Is your evidence insulting? Offensive? Will it break the CoC? If it does not breech the CoC then how will it lead to you being "booted" and even if it does, since you are leaving then what would it matter?


... it's becoming more about being a cash grab then being about the sim, it becomes a turn off for a lot of people. The DLStation is a good example of that...they feel it's best to try and make people get so frustration at the slow download speeds the'll run out and buy a first class ticket. I'm sorry I expect more from a company that I'm giving my money to. Add to that the fact that I donated my work to the DLStation, I get nothing in return for my efforts. You can't say that this is a good deal for any content creator. It actually a slap in the face if you ask me.

Regrettably, everything involves money these days. Without it N3V would not survive. As I pointed out in a previous post, they have bills to pay including covering the cost of the storage and bandwidth for the DLS. Why do people think that the $40 (or whatever) they paid for the game will cover the cost of a high(er) speed connection for downloading content for the rest of their life?

dangavel
January 24th, 2018, 01:57 AM
They have a team, the Content Repair Group, and you don't need to pay anything. The Charter of the CRG forbids improvements to assets: they are only allowed to fix them.


yes I know they have a repair team, but isn't that a volunteer thing ? , but I was meaning a team of NV3 employees , who are paid to fix essential assets that are part of routes that don't work . Its probably beyond their resources, but if they are going to change the parameters all the time that do need to take some responsibility for fixing the items they render useless, especially since they promote the number of assets available as a feature of the game.

the other option is for Nv3 make more assets themselves and provide them as built ins . if a content creator wanted to sell or give their assets to NV3 when they die or when they decide to retire for the game that would assure continuity.
I can see both sides of this , nV3 are a business , a small one in the grand scheme of things, they have used the content creators to make their game more flexible than others but they also are hoisted on their own petard when they update and the assets become scrambled.

Has anyone ever done a census of how many people make content and why they stop making items? this is something that NV3 should do really for their own sake.

There may be more people making than we think and the number of european and Russian content creators seem to be burgeoning , not decreasing , i'm impressed by what they make ven if its hard to work out their naming systems.

Finally, there are folks who make but never share , this is the saddest aspect , there are no doubt some masterpieces that exist only for one persons pleasure. I can never understand that mentality but I've come across it before in other fields. Exclusivity gives them status, I hope they enjoy their creations , reconsider why they will not share and possibly consider offering their work as payware in the future , better that than it being hidden away or seen only as screenshots .

Its a shame to see so much bickering as unity is strength, together we as a community are better off discussing things reasonably than spending our time arguing and being personal, all I know is, I've been helped a great deal by some great people here ( not so much by NV3 so i do not qualify as an "Australian fanboy " ) and i will be forever grateful to them ( including BD1964 who helped me with some telegraphs poles a few years back)

There are many more nice people here than jerks, I've found in life that if you act like a jerk, then people will treat you like one. Its in everyone's interests to try to get on, lets make better attempts to do so .

dangavel
January 24th, 2018, 02:01 AM
. Not to mention that everybody and their mother is only seems to be interested in creating payware anymore, so if you want something with a hint of quality get ready to part with more of your money.
.

well. what do you say then to the release of winter Rollins pass? A masterpiece if ever there was one, quality work throughout . All free and built by a team cooperating together to make one of the best routes ever offered up to the community.

There are also many routes in progress which look extremely interesting , I do not think we are on our last legs just yet.

BuilderBob
January 24th, 2018, 02:51 AM
yes I know they have a repair team, but isn't that a volunteer thing ? , but I was meaning a team of NV3 employees , who are paid to fix essential assets that are part of routes that don't work
Most of the content on the DLS was created by volunteers, so there is no reason that a volunteer repair team wouldn't be just as effective. N3V does repair and upgrade assets using their own content creation team, but recently the shift has been to use that resource to assist the user base in content creation, rather than doing the work themselves. IMHO that is a shift that should be encouraged.


Has anyone ever done a census of how many people make content and why they stop making items? this is something that NV3 should do really for their own sake.

There may be more people making than we think and the number of european and Russian content creators seem to be burgeoning , not decreasing , i'm impressed by what they make ven if its hard to work out their naming systems.
N3V keeps track of the DLS uploads, but I don't know in what detail. Obviously the DLS is only part of the content creation.

The most recent figures I have seen indicate that DLS uploads are at a rate at least as good as it's ever been, which puts the lie to some of the comments being thrown around here.

dangavel
January 24th, 2018, 04:08 AM
Most of the content on the DLS was created by volunteers, so there is no reason that a volunteer repair team wouldn't be just as effective. N3V does repair and upgrade assets using their own content creation team, but recently the shift has been to use that resource to assist the user base in content creation, rather than doing the work themselves. IMHO that is a shift that should be encouraged
Sorry I cannot agree, I'm sure most content creators would rather be making new items than fixing old ones , especially when they have to do it over and over again I think it's nv3's job to make sure assets work with new updates. I quote Jango " its hard to see ones heavy work being undone " . When hundreds of items need updating , that's a LOT Of work to do, witness the routes that he created that are still languishing in 2012 format because TANE did a number on them .

pcas1986
January 24th, 2018, 04:43 AM
... I'm sure most content creators would rather be making new items than fixing old ones

I agree with that but I also support BuilderBob's view. I think his summation is correct.

If there are routes that work in TS12, and potentially could work in TANE, but have faulty dependencies, then the most useful thing to do would be to provide a list of those faulty assets to the CRG via a thread.

The CRG has a mountain of assets to fix but the list of faulty assets is presented in such a way as to make it difficult to determine what is important and what is not.

I'm not a route builder but I have migrated my pet route from TS06 right through to TANE and every step has been difficult. But I chose to migrate the route so I accept that it needs to be fixed.

pware
January 24th, 2018, 04:49 AM
I'm sure most content creators would rather be making new items than fixing old ones , especially when they have to do it over and over again I think it's nv3's job to make sure assets work with new updates.

I agree that most creators would rather move on to new material than fix the old, but there is the sheer number of assets that remain to be fixed. I believe that it is down to a few thousand now. I would rather have the N3V staff working on fixing the program instead of fixing faulty DLS assets that may still work perfectly in the version of Trainz they were designed for. I am also sure that some creators would not be happy with N3V doing "anything" with their stuff even if it was to repair it so that it worked on TANE - even though uploading to the DLS gives N3V that right.

But there must come a point where you should be asking how many times can you keep updating older assets to work in newer versions of the software. The arguments on this point filled the forums when TANE was first announced.

Many wanted TANE to make a complete break from all older assets from TS12 and below and start fresh with all new assets. Apart from the long lead time needed before a viable range of new assets were available, there was a lot of sense in that viewpoint. I think that we are now seeing some of the disadvantages of maintaining that compatibility.

Opposing that, of course, is the huge range of existing assets that were immediately available for use and worked.

However, I recently purchased a route from the DLC specifically designed for TANE SP2 and was disappointed to see that it still used billboard trees (no Speedtrees) and non-procedural track.

SailorDan
January 24th, 2018, 05:48 AM
Sorry I cannot agree, I'm sure most content creators would rather be making new items than fixing old ones , especially when they have to do it over and over again I think it's nv3's job to make sure assets work with new updates.
You can pretty much tell what upgrading work has been done with an asset by looking at the version number and the change in build number. If you examine assets being uploaded to the DLS where the build number changed you will see that the vast majority are in their second version, and typically are moving from build 2.9 to build 3.5. That reflects the points where major changes in the rules occurred. A sample from recent uploads was :1=76, :2=10, :3=10, :4=1. That's a very small sample, but reflects the general impression. So "over and over again" just isn't what's actually happening.

The vast majority of assets do work with later versions. It just seems that the ones that don't are the ones that are really important for the route!

ldowns
January 24th, 2018, 02:39 PM
Rather than continuing to obsolete assets N3V should be looking toward programming that works to automatically include older assets, automatically update older assets.

We frequently see responses to this to the effect that older assets are full of errors that slow down performance. Therefore they must be executed. Shot. Electrocuted. Or whatever. Rather drastic, don't you think?

The point is that those assets worked before. Perhaps they slowed down the system, but not all of us give a "hoot" (to be polite) about performance; we want to build large very detailed routes which often depend upon older assets such as signals because appropriate newer ones are not available. Again, the problem comes down to choices: N3V has consistently been averse to allowing users to make choices in how flexible they want Trainz to be. (Example: the notorious flashing red and green junction arrows when a junction is accessed which cannot be eliminated). A "compatibility mode" which would be acknowledged as lower performance but would accept assets currently sentenced to death would be enough to satisfy many of N3V's critics, based upon the posts in this forum.

--Lamont

SailorDan
January 24th, 2018, 03:02 PM
We frequently see responses to this to the effect that older assets are full of errors that slow down performance. Therefore they must be executed. Shot. Electrocuted. Or whatever. Rather drastic, don't you think?
That's not what happens. In most cases assets that are "full of errors that slow down performance" continue to work as before. However they cannot be updated without also fixing those errors, and that's where the complaints come from. There are some exceptions - speedtrees were a special case, and paintshed reskins simply aren't supported any more. But the vast majority of assets continue to work exactly as they did before. The number that actually fail is a very small proportion of the total, and it's usually because the rules that applied at the time the asset was created weren't followed, rather than any change in the rules.

BlackDiamond1964
January 24th, 2018, 04:55 PM
Regrettably, everything involves money these days. Without it N3V would not survive. As I pointed out in a previous post, they have bills to pay including covering the cost of the storage and bandwidth for the DLS. Why do people think that the $40 (or whatever) they paid for the game will cover the cost of a high(er) speed connection for downloading content for the rest of their life?

If they had a bigger base they would have to worry as much. This should be their real goal, and not nickle and diming everybody to death. If somebody wants that, they can move to Railworks.

In the end I can look past the a community, N3V indiscretions. I can even look past TANE flaws, What I can't get past is the DLStation. Where else do you get slow speeds like that in this day and age? It's not 1995 anymore. It's time for the DLStation to get an upgrade into the 21 century. It also wouldn't hurt for N3V to give some incentive for those content creators wishing to upload quality content to the DLStation. Maybe have some incentive guide based on downloads numbers of their content?

pware
January 24th, 2018, 05:16 PM
What I can't get past is the DLStation. Where else do you get slow speeds like that in this day and age?

I have an FCT but in my experience the speed has a lot to do with my internet connection. I access the DLS from 3 different computers in 3 different locations using the same account. The only difference is the method of access. My main desktop computer is on an ADSL 2+ connection but it is at the very end of the line so I get relatively poor speeds, for both the DLS and the Internet in general. A major update, such as the recent SP2 HF1, can take several hours to download.

A second computer is on a HFC co-axial cable connection and gets much better speeds, about 8-10x faster than my ADSL 2+ for both the DSL and the Intenet. When I use my laptop I connect via a mobile 4G network and get even better speeds but at a higher cost (ISP charges) so it is not as economical.

I am assuming, from your point above, that you do not have an FCT and that is your main complaint.

BlackDiamond1964
January 24th, 2018, 05:25 PM
I am assuming, from your point above, that you do not have an FCT and that is your main complaint.

I've had many first class tickets over the years. I also have a cable internet connection. My point is that people should not have to pay for a standard speed. The current set speed without the FC ticket is unacceptable in my view.

Dinorius_Redundicus
January 24th, 2018, 05:40 PM
Wow John, what a thread you've started.

If I ever give up on Trainz, it could be due to difficulty in keeping up with the increasing complexity of 3D modelling. Or being forced to learn Blender due to lack of support for Max. Or just running out of creative impetus. Or health problems. Any of those reasons, but certainly not as a protest about cost of a yearly First Class Ticket or the speed of a download (seriously?).


.

BlackDiamond1964
January 24th, 2018, 05:53 PM
but certainly not as a protest about cost of a yearly First Class Ticket or the speed of a download (seriously?).

Yes seriously. How many other games sites have set their download speeds so slow just to force you to speed money to buy something faster? I thought you were smarter then that...I guess I was wrong.

pware
January 24th, 2018, 06:14 PM
My point is that people should not have to pay for a standard speed. The current set speed without the FC ticket is unacceptable in my view.

What is "Standard Speed"?

The ISP where I use a co-axial cable connection offers several different connection options to the Internet. Their "Standard" connection, the cheapest, is 12MBps download/1MBps upload - that is still 3-4x faster than my ADSL 2+ home connection. Their "Standard Plus", the one used at this location is more expensive at 25MBps download/5MBps upload. The next, which is even more expensive, is 50MBps download/20MBps upload. I would love to be able to use their top 1000MBps download option but it would seriously break my bank even if it was technically possible. The HFC cable at that location has a probable speed limit of about 36 MBps, hence the choice of the 25MBps option - why pay for access speeds you cannot use?

None of these options are "free" - you pay for the speed you want. The FCT users are actually subsidising those who do not have an FCT, a situation that I, as an FCT holder, could easily find to be unfair. Why should I pay for their access? But I fully understand why N3V are offering a free access service - no matter how slow it is.

If you want a faster access to anything then be prepared to pay for it. While we would all like everything to be offered for nothing, ultimately someone has to pay.

davesnow
January 24th, 2018, 06:22 PM
Wow John, what a thread you've started.

If I ever give up on Trainz, it could be due to difficulty in keeping up with the increasing complexity of 3D modelling. Or being forced to learn Blender due to lack of support for Max. Or just running out of creative impetus. Or health problems. Any of those reasons, but certainly not as a protest about cost of a yearly First Class Ticket or the speed of a download (seriously?).


.



Hear hear....

2995Valliant
January 24th, 2018, 06:27 PM
How do we judge smartness? If it's based on content on the DLS then he's over 15 times smarter than you are.

If we judge it on length of time playing the game then he's still over three time smarter.

If we judge it on snide insults thrown freely at people, then you clearly are a genius - problem is it makes your already weak arguments look even poorer. The reasons for this have have been well made by many posters so I won't bore everyone by repeating them, but they have nothing to do with a blind love for N3V, just a different perspective to yours.

To answer your question about download speeds, I can assure you that download speeds for UK Trainsim, the main repository of UK outline MSTS and RW downloads is far slower than the DLS unless you have a subscription. It just may be because somebody, somewhere has to pay for the bandwidth and the helpdesk costs associated with the DLS and FCTs are a way of covering that so perhaps your question should be "Should those who buy a FCT be charged more to better subsidise those who can't/don't?"

Assuming you've ever a written a letter to someone, did you have to pay to get it delivered?

BlackDiamond1964
January 24th, 2018, 06:28 PM
What is "Standard Speed"?

You guys don't get it do you? The DLStation is purposely set to an irritatingly slow speed for one reason and one reason only...to get more money from you. I can't dumb it down any more then that. pware-no disrespect to you, but this issue has nothing to do with internet speeds that I get from my IP.

BlackDiamond1964
January 24th, 2018, 06:32 PM
How do we judge smartness? If it's based on content on the DLS then he's over 15 times smarter than you are.

If we judge it on length of time playing the game then he's still over three time smarter.

If we judge it on snide insults thrown freely at people, then you clearly are a genius - problem is it makes your already weak arguments look even poorer. The reasons for this have have been well made by many posters so I won't bore everyone by repeating them, but they have nothing to do with a blind love for N3V, just a different perspective to yours.

To answer your question about download speeds, I can assure you that download speeds for UK Trainsim, the main repository of UK outline MSTS and RW downloads is far slower than the DLS unless you have a subscription. It just may be because somebody, somewhere has to pay for the bandwidth and the helpdesk costs associated with the DLS and FCTs are a way of covering that so perhaps your question should be "Should those who buy a FCT be charged more to better subsidise those who can't/don't?"

Assuming you've ever a written a letter to someone, did you have to pay to get it delivered?


Yes I realize that you are trying to bait me into an argument...as I said before that wont work. If you guys what the download speeds to be purposely slow then maybe the fools should be separated from their money. I know I won't be one of them fools.

pware
January 24th, 2018, 06:34 PM
You guys don't get it do you? The DLStation is purposely set to an irritatingly slow speed for one reason and one reason only...to get more money from you. I can't dumb it down any more then that. pware-no disrespect to you, but this issue has nothing to do with internet speeds that I get from my IP.

Regardless, that is a fact of modern life. If N3V want to slow a connection (assuming that your claim is correct) purely to force users to pay for a higher speed then since it is their service and they are paying for it, they are entitled to do just that if they want. You don't have to like it and you are not "forced" to pay for an FCT.

Of course, the alternative is to give everyone the maximum possible DLS download speed and make everyone pay for their downloads. Which would you prefer?

cascaderailroad
January 24th, 2018, 06:37 PM
And we will all, gladly, go right out again, and buy a new, flawed, version of NEXTT:ANE

dangavel
January 24th, 2018, 06:42 PM
You guys don't get it do you? The DLStation is purposely set to an irritatingly slow speed for one reason and one reason only...to get more money from you. I can't dumb it down any more then that. pware-no disrespect to you, but this issue has nothing to do with internet speeds that I get from my IP.

But the cost is hardly extortionate, its $27 a year , but I always wait for a sale, think I got mine for $13 last time. compared to cost of internet and computers needed to run TANE , its a drop in the ocean. if you are strapped for cash, then you learn to wait.
I hardly think its worth getting so furious over, putting it in perspective for the cost of decent graphics card I'd get 10 years of FCT , that's not bad, ( although as I am a 1900-1950s narrow gauger, there's not a lot I can download much of the time . also think of the running costs for NV3 its probably a considerable chunk of their revenue keeping it up and running.

Also, we do get the forums for free, if they were such moneygrubbers , I imagine that they would slap a charge on that too.

Now I DO agree with you re DLS organization, its hard to search and to find items in some categories . yes you can use translators but its a pain on occasions. I've suggested color coding so it would be easier to find the more obscure items as one has to admit, some peoples naming systems are hard to work out and the ones who never ever include screenshots are sadists in the highest degree :-)

if anyone thinks it could not be improved radically , then you probably could be accused of being a fanboy :-)

BlackDiamond1964
January 24th, 2018, 06:42 PM
Regardless, that is a fact of modern life. If N3V want to slow a connection (assuming that your claim is correct) purely to force users to pay for a higher speed then since it is their service and they are paying for it, they are entitled to do just that if they want. You don't have to like it and you are not "forced" to pay for an FCT.

Of course, the alternative is to give everyone the maximum possible DLS download speed and make everyone pay for their downloads. Which would you prefer?


What do I prefer? Give me a reason to upload the DLStation. Give me faster speeds, in return I will upload content to it. Hows That?

SailorDan
January 24th, 2018, 06:50 PM
You guys don't get it do you? The DLStation is purposely set to an irritatingly slow speed for one reason and one reason only...to get more money from you.
You could look at it from an alternative viewpoint as "The DLS is an optional paid subscription service, but a demonstration version is available to anyone: it has the full range of available assets, but download speed and daily allowance are restricted". I guess it depends on your attitude.

dangavel
January 24th, 2018, 06:55 PM
And we will all, gladly, go right out again, and buy a new, flawed, version of NEXTT:ANE

Not me , I'm sticking to this version of TANE for as long as it works on my system , the only reason I upgraded was 2012 slowed down so much I could not stand it anymore on both mac and PC , it was unable to run most routes and rebuilding the database was a utter pain . Meanwhile TANE just freezes on opening on my PC, its the last build not the present one, it too got to the state where it would not work either on mac or pc , forcing my upgrade install on the mac, which then caused several months of angst, but that seems to be behind me now ( fingers crossed ).

. At the moment, this iteration works and its drivable with a 2gb graphic card . if I do finish my current route, thats where it stays too for the foreseeable future, i do not intend to get caught on the upgrade spiral where I spend most of my time fixing assets.

. Although I purchased TANE right from the start , I didn't actually use it for about 2 years and then only when it became untenable to use the last trainz version. Its the same with operating systems, they all have bugs, I wait until most are ironed out, unfortunately with TANE its taken 3 years to get it to being decent :-)

BlackDiamond1964
January 24th, 2018, 07:08 PM
You could look at it from an alternative viewpoint as "The DLS is an optional paid subscription service, but a demonstration version is available to anyone: it has the full range of available assets, but download speed and daily allowance are restricted". I guess it depends on your attitude.

I'm looking at it for a content creators view. N3V needs 3rd party creators right? Why should I pay for that service? As I said before there is no real incentive to upload my content. They are cutting off needed content creators for the sake of making some bucks.

pware
January 24th, 2018, 07:13 PM
Scott,

That is your decision and N3V do not have to accept your terms/demands for your continued participation. You are free to go elsewhere. I wish you well.

My participation in this thread is ended.

BlackDiamond1964
January 24th, 2018, 07:27 PM
Scott, That is your decision and N3V do not have to accept your terms/demands for your continued participation. You are free to go elsewhere. I wish you well.

And so are all other future content creators.

I don't know if this is realized, but I left Trainz a while ago. I only popped back on here to give my thoughts on this topic.

I come up with a valid point and everybody caves. All I get is a corporate response like this in the end. This is why nothing changes here. This is why this franchise will continue to lose supporters and especially lose content creators. Good luck to you! Now my participation in this thread has ended. I can stick my nose straight up in the air too.

CeeBee
January 24th, 2018, 07:37 PM
And so are all other future content creators.

I don't know if this is realized, but I left Trainz a while ago. I only popped back on here to give my thoughts on this topic.

I come up with a valid point and everybody caves. All I get is a corporate response like this in the end. This is why nothing changes here. This is why this franchise will continue to lose supporters and especially lose content creators. Good luck to you! Now my participation in this thread has ended. I can stick my nose straight up in the air too.
So you came back to troll. Good job

gawpo50
January 24th, 2018, 07:37 PM
Don't let the door slap you on the way out

And to the mods....this thread can be locked...as nothing constructive has come out of it.

tbird8923
January 24th, 2018, 08:17 PM
Don't let the door slap you on the way out

And to the mods....this thread can be locked...as nothing constructive has come out of it.

I'm no admin but, I think that goes without saying

Stefmiz
January 24th, 2018, 08:27 PM
I'm aware that content creators come and go but at the moment there seems to not that many left. Certainly in the UK scene.

There is a good basic set of assets but the new methods of creating using the FBX exporter and the new materials or even baking etc using the older methods seem to be daunting to the existing creators. I recognise that N3V makes money from payware sold through DLC but I wonder if the days of people being able to create content that looked reasonable are coming to an end apart from one or two skilled creators.

I'm not sure if it matters or if anything can be done to encourage content creation. The list of newly discovered "errors" on each new update is essentially disheartening.

Thoughts?

John

Content creators could just becoming older now, wanting to move on or do something else. I would suggest that it's just a waiting game until new content creators push through. Maybe go check out TS2018 if you want to have more/newer UK content. As for now, not all content creators are "dying", there's plenty coming through in Australian content, and eventually will in the UK scene as well. Don't also think that people have stopped creating content either. Creators could take as long as 1-2 years to build an asset, due to the lack of time they have on their hands, and the extent they have to go through to make a locomotive, after all everyone has lives outside of Trainz. I would recommend trying to create content yourself and seeing how difficult it gets at times, and the errors, and limitations you run into regularly.
Just a shame that what all N3V seems to focus on is graphics and new components to the game, instead of fixing limitations that have been put there from the start and adding more content themselves, all they depend on is 3rd party creators, and seems like they always will.

Cheers, Stefan

Tony_Hilliam
January 24th, 2018, 08:34 PM
I think we can safely say that everything that needs to be said here has been said.

People have presented different opinions and we've avoided (for the most part) anything too serious in the way the opinions have been presented.

I'll lock the thread, but will also provide a [hopefully] short N3V response.

1. DLS access is provided free. For that, we are admonished. We don't have to provide a free service, but we choose to do so.
2. We offer a paid alternative that is, admittedly, a much better option than the free version, but you do have to pay for the better service. This practice has been with Trainz for 15 years and it hasn't hurt us too badly. How things wouldhave panned out under a different model is purely conjecture.
3. We are raising the bar with content creation - we have to do this in order to provide the game that our customers are demanding of us. If we kept 2004 rules for content, the content would look and operate just like it did in 2004. That means no LOD, no bump maps and certainly no PBR. So who is going to buy that game in 2018?
4. So, we have a quality bar that MUST be raised, and it is our responsibility to create an environment whereby both freeware and payware can be created for Trainz to satisfy the enormous demand for new content.
5. Last week we offered content creators the opportunity to access the latest internal build to check out the new content creation process. A dozen volunteers were selected to participate in the first round. We'll be working with these dozen people over the coming weeks ensuring they get a full understanding of the process. We'll also be working on creating additional documentation to make it easier for the "masses" of content creators when we move to the next phase of testing.
6. All this is done by working out our development budget, our revenue stream and ensuring that we can afford to pay for our team. Selling one copy to one person isn't going to do that. Having no new content isn't going to do that, so we're going to make sure that we do everything we can to assist new content being developed. The better the standard of content, the happier the users.
7. Last point - 2004 content works fine in TANE and will work fine in the next version of Trainz. SOME content that was made incorrectly at the time or to a much lower standard, might not work,but this amounts to a very small % of the total list of content.