PDA

View Full Version : TANE Gremlin.



Sean_lee
December 24th, 2016, 01:01 AM
This is what I have to put up with, after my route has got to a certain size. This happened in TS 12 as well. Edit in session then transfer to route. SAVE. exit. Re load later and this is what happens. Any ideas anyone. Frustration level is mounting.

http://i.imgur.com/TsOBTsR.jpg
http://imgur.com/FubAPJI.jpg

JCitron
December 24th, 2016, 01:13 AM
This has something to do with your methods if it happens in BOTH TS12 and T:ANE and has nothing to do with the route size.

Why are you putting down track in the session? Always put down permanent stuff on the route layer such as tracks, trees, buildings, textures, and anything else like that. The only thing you should do in a session is place consists, configure scripts and driver commands.

Separating the functions like that keeps things straight.

Sean_lee
December 24th, 2016, 01:41 AM
Ok I will try that, but I have always done it like that. Right from the start when this layer in thing was introduced. But I was only thinking size of route because it as only become apparent when we got to a certain size. Thanks we will give that a go.

H222
December 24th, 2016, 02:05 AM
This'll be your fault to an extent: use the route layer for everything but trains/session-only things. (i.e. A christmas session could have a santa on the route, and using the session layers means it'd only show in that christmas session)

Jamie

Sean_lee
December 24th, 2016, 10:31 PM
This has something to do with your methods if it happens in BOTH TS12 and T:ANE and has nothing to do with the route size.

Why are you putting down track in the session? Always put down permanent stuff on the route layer such as tracks, trees, buildings, textures, and anything else like that. The only thing you should do in a session is place consists, configure scripts and driver commands.

Separating the functions like that keeps things straight.
Sorry to bother.but that didnt work either.

http://i.imgur.com/2jYXFZo.jpg

Sean_lee
December 25th, 2016, 12:28 AM
As an addition to all of that, I tried different ways of doing things. different content.track. tunnels. even deleting ground and starting over. Everytime I saved I got a different outcome. Track missing, or next time tunnel gone but some track attached. Never consistent. Edit in route when you save I get default shown in window. So I ignore that as I dont want another session, got a default session anyhow showing, besides the one I was working in. I just hope this is not the end of things, Trainz has tested my patience over many years. And has become part of me. Just seems it has lots of weird bugs in it, that dont show up in a consistent manner. Leave it at that. Any other ideas.

grazlash
December 25th, 2016, 03:48 AM
Yes we have plenty ;). First thing you should do is to attempt to merge your session layers into your route layer, that may get your assets back in place. If that is successful, follow John's advice and only edit your route in the route layers as sessions are for consists, scripts and commands. Route layer is for things you build, session layer is for things you run on the route. Try not to touch the default session and if you are asked to overwrite the session when saving, it is always a good idea to do that.
In TANE I have successfully merged 21 routes together (Main South routes and branches plus Goulburn Murray and a DEM from Shepparton to Mangalore and Illawarra) well over 1000kms of track and it saves without a problem with no assets randomly going missing (takes about 3 minutes to save). I can edit it with no problems and I do follow the guidelines that John mentioned. There really is nothing much wrong with TANE and since SP1 the only problems I have had have been self inflicted.
I hope this help you out and just remember to work within TANEs limitations eg. don't try to extend a spline longer than a baseboard.
Merry Christmas
cheers
Graeme.

Paul_Bert
December 25th, 2016, 10:13 AM
One additional thought. When you reopen the route/session be sure you open the session for editing and not the route. Several times I have been working on a route and saved it. Later when I open it I find to my horror that lots of stuff appears to be missing, but then I realize I had opened the route for editing and not the session. Once I do this everything returns as expected.

JCitron
December 25th, 2016, 11:01 AM
What I'm thinking is he's opening the route in route editing mode one time and session editing in another, which is putting stuff in the two different places causing the missing content.

By keeping stuff consistent, like putting all the tracks, trees, buildings, roads, on the static route layer, then this stuff never goes away. The only things that are done in the session are the dynamic items such as consists, portal configurations, scripts, and driver setups.

Again like Graeme, I too have many 1000s of km of route built or merged (Mergers and Acquisitions as I call them) with some sections in this particular route shown here dating back to the original route I started in December 2003.

The route: (A portion anyway)
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/db87915e2abaf0670a564da50513dfb7.jpg (http://hostthenpost.org)

Nothing missing here except what not's done yet...

http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/33da9c40b0c4911ed26a61308b24395b.jpg (http://hostthenpost.org)

Railwoodman
December 25th, 2016, 11:35 AM
( JCitron ) You sir , have too much free time to be running or building route that size :D:hehe: Man would love to give that a try. Thought I had a monster route :hehe:

Just my two cents .. When editing or adding to your your route . Save often , turn off auto save . Or take it to 30 min or longer . I've gotten to save after any changes I make , doesn't eliminate this . But greatly reduces it . All so , although I've been told it has no effect , update all your content you use if possible .

Merry Christmas

Matt

JCitron
December 25th, 2016, 12:36 PM
( JCitron ) You sir , have too much free time to be running or building route that size :D:hehe: Man would love to give that a try. Thought I had a monster route :hehe:

Just my two cents .. When editing or adding to your your route . Save often , turn off auto save . Or take it to 30 min or longer . I've gotten to save after any changes I make , doesn't eliminate this . But greatly reduces it . All so , although I've been told it has no effect , update all your content you use if possible .

Merry Christmas

Matt

Yup way too much time on my hands. :)

There's a lot of mergers here though for some of the bigger parts, though I did do a fair bit of building myself. I agree with you. Turn off the autosave and save early and often manually. I also version save too. My big route, shown here, is at version 5.5 ---- 12-18-2016 with 5.4 ---- 12-10-2016 still in my T:ANE install. I have previous saves all in CDPs and tucked away should I want to go back to something. The route started with six baseboards located in the lower left-middle where the blue patch is. The river-like-segment that continues east and then south is a bit of version 2.0 and something from George Fisher. There are many of his routes in here from all over the place. Version 1.0 started in December 2003 and I'll never forget the first six baseboards I put down.

Sean_lee
December 26th, 2016, 01:44 AM
So far I think I get it????? Edit in route.... Now I get the option to save either Default..did it once..or to my existing session. When I did that. All my builds were there???? We shall see tomorrow whether its all stuck. If so Stockholm here we come. Doing Gothenberg to Stockholm as a route. Quite a challenge. Doing some off maps and some off the top of my head. Thought of this Trans dem stuff but too hard for my head to get around, Keep calm and carry on. Thanks.

Sean_lee
December 27th, 2016, 01:21 AM
Thanks, seems everything has stuck. Amazing that, that little gremlin made itself apparent after a long time of doing things the way I have always done it. now I should be able to fix my TS12 route and My uploaded to T:ANE TS 12 route which has all the above mentioned problems. Once more into the breech dear friends.......

JCitron
December 27th, 2016, 10:42 AM
Thanks, seems everything has stuck. Amazing that, that little gremlin made itself apparent after a long time of doing things the way I have always done it. now I should be able to fix my TS12 route and My uploaded to T:ANE TS 12 route which has all the above mentioned problems. Once more into the breech dear friends.......

Congratulations on solving your problem!

I'm glad you got things sorted out.

Sean_lee
December 28th, 2016, 01:32 AM
Dont want to burst the bubble, but mt TS12 route and my uploaded to T:ANE route still suffers from the problem. Even after changing methods. Do believe its a TS12 problem. But not to worry T:ANE seems to be ok, so press on.

paperpusher
December 28th, 2016, 12:02 PM
The non placing of track happened recently to me in the last couple days. It is the first time this has happened in any of my Trainz programs. I installed I-Highway road and then halfway through it did not appear on the Surveyor mode, nor the Driver mode. I adjusted my Video program for the I5 Core/NVIDIA Genforce on the Aspire E17 laptop and it seemed to 'fix' the problem. But it was 'scary' not to be able to work on the program.

ldowns
December 28th, 2016, 09:15 PM
I can't help but wonder if this is a re-emergence of the "undo" bug that was a known problem back in (I think) TS2006 days. I have been noticing it happening recently while doing a lot of spline work in a large layout, especially if I did a number of Ctrl-Z (undo) commands. Since making the mental connection I've been carefully avoiding undos (not easy when the automatic reaction to having a spline accidentally connect to another is to press Ctrl-Z). So far I haven't seen it recur, but of course that could change...

--Lamont

Sean_lee
December 28th, 2016, 09:22 PM
I will try and avoid un-do as well from now. Its strange though it becomes apparent that as a route gets bigger, quirks appear. That has to be a coding problem somewhere and overwriting glitch. Maybe not hard to fix but one needs access to the code, to eliminate it.

JCitron
December 28th, 2016, 10:24 PM
Due to the ancient Undo-bug, I have gotten in the habit of not using the undo-function unless I really, really have to. I never did see that during the earlier beta testing, but that doesn't mean it hasn't returned. Sometimes when fixing something in software older bugs rear their ugly selves again from the inside of the software.

Sean_lee
December 29th, 2016, 01:38 AM
Well my little gremlin has reared its head again, on a good set of track tried adding some spurs. all well an good i thought. Go back later all have vanished. Have tried removing content around the area, different track. etc. all with the same outcome. Vanished. Maybe its a baseboard issue, as further along all is fine. Got me bamboozled.

ldowns
December 29th, 2016, 09:37 AM
For what its worth, on several occasions I've had to remove the track for several sections on either side of the disappearing segment and re-enter it. Usually the fix usually sticks after doing this. Its as if some underlying code for a track segment has gotten corrupted and keeps affecting the segment(s) connected to it.

--Lamont

clam1952
December 29th, 2016, 10:01 AM
Due to the ancient Undo-bug, I have gotten in the habit of not using the undo-function unless I really, really have to. I never did see that during the earlier beta testing, but that doesn't mean it hasn't returned. Sometimes when fixing something in software older bugs rear their ugly selves again from the inside of the software.


I use undo quite a lot at the moment and never had a problem with it in TANE.

I've usually found that any problems with routes and track pre TANE were due to none related splines or ground textures in the area and not often the track. Not sure if that applies in TANE though.

Wonder if the compact route function in the main menu might fix some of these glitches? Try it on a clone though just in case it makes things worse!

Sean_lee
December 30th, 2016, 02:27 AM
Interesting that,on my TS 12 route I removed the ground texture and replaced it, and then just removed anything in the problem area. And then put track thru.that stuck??? On my uploaded TS12 to T:ANE I am going to do the same thing and see what happens. My T:ANE route is still a problem moved track away from problem area,still vanishes. Now changing track and see what happens....Watch this space.

Sean_lee
December 31st, 2016, 01:23 AM
Tried a few things, some on my TS12 route stuck. Maybe related to textures close by.??? My uploaded toT:ANE TS12 is still playing up. now trying different track types. So far not good. My T:ANE route has stuck with a different track in one spot, and vanished in another then changed track again and this one stuck. Definitely a deep seated coding problem, which comes out when a route gets large. I put in a bug report, and they asked me if a new route in edit route the problem occurred, Nope..I believe its size related. And so it goes on.

JCitron
December 31st, 2016, 12:10 PM
Tried a few things, some on my TS12 route stuck. Maybe related to textures close by.??? My uploaded toT:ANE TS12 is still playing up. now trying different track types. So far not good. My T:ANE route has stuck with a different track in one spot, and vanished in another then changed track again and this one stuck. Definitely a deep seated coding problem, which comes out when a route gets large. I put in a bug report, and they asked me if a new route in edit route the problem occurred, Nope..I believe its size related. And so it goes on.

Nope. It's a layers problem still. You have stuff out of sync by placing stuff on one layer and stuff on another layer. Merging the layers together didn't work because some on the session layer was not there anymore, etc. If you want, I can check the route. Give me the kuid and name if it's on the DLS, or send me a PM with your email address and I'll give you access to a shared folder on my OneDrive. Just include any special dependencies which are not found in the usual places, or at least links to them.

To fix this I recommend creating a new route. It only has to be one baseboard.

When merging, attach your old route to the single baseboard.

When going through the layers:

Move all layers to the route layer including the session layer.

That should, hopefully, reset the problem you are having.

As we have discussed before, there are two causes we have found for the missing track and only the spline points.

1) Is some track does not render properly due to its age and poor design.
2) Layers.

The majority of the time it's layers. It's not size related. Two of my routes are huge with one being close to 200 miles (about 322 km) with parts dating back to December 28, 2003. My other route, which is 99% mergers, is a bit shorter at 160 miles (about 257.5 km). There are other routes which are about the same size if not bigger. Combined together they'd by 1,000 km(s) or more.

All of my routes make heavy use of Speed Trees, built-in, custom (modified), and third-party assets all without problem.

Sean_lee
January 2nd, 2017, 07:49 PM
Got this from Zec at Trainz, is this what you suggested.


1) Select your route in the Routes menu
2) Click on 'Edit route'
3) Once the route loads, click on 'main menu' on the top toolbar.
4) Click on 'Compact Route'.
5) You should see a window asking if you wish to continue, click on the checkmark.
6) Now save your route under a new name (do not overwrite the original).
7) Exit Surveyor
8) Now re-load the new copy of your route using the edit route button and try editing the route and see if these issues still occur.

Note, existing sessions will not be available to the route after following these steps.

Ill give it go in the meantime
Thanks

Sean_lee
January 3rd, 2017, 04:21 AM
Got this from Zec at Trainz, is this what you suggested.


1) Select your route in the Routes menu
2) Click on 'Edit route'
3) Once the route loads, click on 'main menu' on the top toolbar.
4) Click on 'Compact Route'.
5) You should see a window asking if you wish to continue, click on the checkmark.
6) Now save your route under a new name (do not overwrite the original).
7) Exit Surveyor
8) Now re-load the new copy of your route using the edit route button and try editing the route and see if these issues still occur.

Note, existing sessions will not be available to the route after following these steps.

Ill give it go in the meantime
Thanks

Sean_lee
January 3rd, 2017, 04:23 AM
Nope. It's a layers problem still. You have stuff out of sync by placing stuff on one layer and stuff on another layer. Merging the layers together didn't work because some on the session layer was not there anymore, etc. If you want, I can check the route. Give me the kuid and name if it's on the DLS, or send me a PM with your email address and I'll give you access to a shared folder on my OneDrive. Just include any special dependencies which are not found in the usual places, or at least links to them.

To fix this I recommend creating a new route. It only has to be one baseboard.

When merging, attach your old route to the single baseboard.

When going through the layers:

Move all layers to the route layer including the session layer.

That should, hopefully, reset the problem you are having.

As we have discussed before, there are two causes we have found for the missing track and only the spline points.

1) Is some track does not render properly due to its age and poor design.
2) Layers.

The majority of the time it's layers. It's not size related. Two of my routes are huge with one being close to 200 miles (about 322 km) with parts dating back to December 28, 2003. My other route, which is 99% mergers, is a bit shorter at 160 miles (about 257.5 km). There are other routes which are about the same size if not bigger. Combined together they'd by 1,000 km(s) or more.

All of my routes make heavy use of Speed Trees, built-in, custom (modified), and third-party assets all without problem.

Got this from Zec at Trainz, is this what you suggested.


1) Select your route in the Routes menu
2) Click on 'Edit route'
3) Once the route loads, click on 'main menu' on the top toolbar.
4) Click on 'Compact Route'.
5) You should see a window asking if you wish to continue, click on the checkmark.
6) Now save your route under a new name (do not overwrite the original).
7) Exit Surveyor
8) Now re-load the new copy of your route using the edit route button and try editing the route and see if these issues still occur.

Note, existing sessions will not be available to the route after following these steps.

Ill give it go in the meantime
Thanks

JCitron
January 3rd, 2017, 11:09 AM
Got this from Zec at Trainz, is this what you suggested.


1) Select your route in the Routes menu
2) Click on 'Edit route'
3) Once the route loads, click on 'main menu' on the top toolbar.
4) Click on 'Compact Route'.
5) You should see a window asking if you wish to continue, click on the checkmark.
6) Now save your route under a new name (do not overwrite the original).
7) Exit Surveyor
8) Now re-load the new copy of your route using the edit route button and try editing the route and see if these issues still occur.

Note, existing sessions will not be available to the route after following these steps.

Ill give it go in the meantime
Thanks

No. Just create a new single-baseboard route then merge your old route INTO the new one-baseboard route. After you've attached the old route on the new one, you'll see there are layer conflicts because the tab on the interface is red. Click on that tab and move all the route layers and session layers to the route layer.

Sean_lee
January 3rd, 2017, 11:58 PM
[QUOTE=JCitron;1568378]No. Just create a new single-baseboard route then merge your old route INTO the new one-baseboard route. After you've attached the old route on the new one, you'll see there are layer conflicts because the tab on the interface is red. Click on that tab and move all the route layers and session layers to the route layer.[/QUO

Tried that just ended up with a blank baseboard. the name I used to merge into is on my menu but no route. I must be missing a point somewhere. Never been to confident in doing this sort of stuff. Cant figure out Derps. Anyhow sorting a copy to you shortly.

blueodessey
January 4th, 2017, 12:23 AM
.
I hope this help you out and just remember to work within TANEs limitations eg. don't try to extend a spline longer than a baseboard.
Merry Christmas
cheers
Graeme.

:confused: I just read something in your response which I don't think I was aware of, in regards to T:ANE limitations.......

"don't try to extend a spline longer than a baseboard"

Are you saying that any type of Spline should not exceed a baseboard? Track-age Tree Splines, Bridges, the whole gambit?

I have a merged route of 10X or more layouts 60-70 combined Miles of Railroad, from different folks, and with that said, I need to go back and make sure I, and the original authors, haven't exceeded the the 1 tile limit for Splines!

:( Could also explain why Frame Drops and other weird things occur in some spots of RR collage.

I don't mind if it is true, I just don't recall this ever being mentioned.

Sean_lee
January 4th, 2017, 03:45 PM
[QUOTE=JCitron;1568378]No. Just create a new single-baseboard route then merge your old route INTO the new one-baseboard route. After you've attached the old route on the new one, you'll see there are layer conflicts because the tab on the interface is red. Click on that tab and move all the route layers and session layers to the route layer.[/QUO

Tried that just ended up with a blank baseboard. the name I used to merge into is on my menu but no route. I must be missing a point somewhere. Never been to confident in doing this sort of stuff. Cant figure out Derps. Anyhow sorting a copy to you shortly.

OK.Just did an experiment with my old TS12 route moving that to the one baseboard.Using merge route. This again is where terminology in computers with me falls apart. I had the empty baseboard with this as well. What was not done was SAVE AS..new name for route. not just plain save and exit. SAVE AS the new one baseboard route,and all seems to be there. Hopefully I may have crossed another Rubicon. Confirm if thats what should have been done
Thanks.

JCitron
January 4th, 2017, 05:34 PM
A save or save as should work.

Generally save is used to keep the existing files as-is but updated, where as, save as is used to create a new name and you can always overwrite the old files with the new save-as'ed ones.

Sean_lee
January 5th, 2017, 02:56 AM
A save or save as should work.

Generally save is used to keep the existing files as-is but updated, where as, save as is used to create a new name and you can always overwrite the old files with the new save-as'ed ones.

Spent a frustrating afternoon using merge or compact route with my uploaded TS12 route to T:ANE So many different outcomes. Before something stuck. Putting route on one baseboard, then merging a multiple route layer and a session layer. Resulted in a crash to desktop about 3 times. Rebuild database fixed it for now. Ended up with multiple routes of varying names. I deleted and started again. Even then it took a number of merge route attempts to get something to stick. My son who is a gamer says why do I bother, Game coded by high school drop outs.???? So thats the story so far, I will move up the line to the next problem.

grazlash
January 5th, 2017, 04:51 AM
:confused: I just read something in your response which I don't think I was aware of, in regards to T:ANE limitations.......

"don't try to extend a spline longer than a baseboard"

Are you saying that any type of Spline should not exceed a baseboard? Track-age Tree Splines, Bridges, the whole gambit?

I have a merged route of 10X or more layouts 60-70 combined Miles of Railroad, from different folks, and with that said, I need to go back and make sure I, and the original authors, haven't exceeded the the 1 tile limit for Splines!

:( Could also explain why Frame Drops and other weird things occur in some spots of RR collage.

I don't mind if it is true, I just don't recall this ever being mentioned.
The problems I have with splines is only while building my route, I can't recall it being an issue while in driver. It happens with track, roads and fences where if the spine is extended too far surveyor will hang. Save exit and re enter fixes the issue. On a particular portion of my DEM I believe it has also caused hanging while adjusting terrain height and rotating houses also and it just happens to be close to where I originally placed a very long bridge which exhibited the same behaviour.
I don't think you have anything to worry about with a route that is already built as it only displays this behaviour in surveyor.
Cheers
Graeme

JCitron
January 5th, 2017, 12:30 PM
This spline issue was also apparent in TS12 where splines would most likely cause the program to freeze up and sometimes crash. At least in T:ANE we only get the spline points.

This issue is most likely related to how the splines are generated. The are after all many, many polygons all strung together in long strings. In the end these are quite large objects which need to be rendered. By inserting a point, it breaks up the loading of the model into smaller chunks which allows our video cards and CPUs to process the data.

blueodessey
January 5th, 2017, 08:22 PM
;) Ah Gentleman, now after reading what has been added, I had to put on thinking cap, as my Parents and Grand Parents would have said: In TS-12 now I remember the Spline problem when I would do lots of extensions et all.

:( This was before I went from mechanical HD to SSD and increased my Ram from 12 to 16 Max allowed for this Laptop.

Usually these problems would rear their ugly heads when I had been working on a route for 45mins or more, and when I extended any and all type splines. The computer would freeze, or I couldn't make some make normal operations like adding a train, or deleting something.

I soon learned that when I saw the beginning of these issues, I needed to do a save/save-as operation if I could, however if it went to far south, I would loose my work and have to exit Trainz and then restart the program and eat 1-2hrs of production.

Occasionally I would have to delete Trainz completely and re-install it, fortunately I had backed up all my routes and inventory, but even with that, it took 2hrs or more to reload everything! I did this twice that I remember.

I figured out that two things occurred when I encountered said issues:

The Hard Drive was to slow at 4200Revs, and 12 Megs didn't cut it either, so if it wasn't the Hard Drive trying to play catch up, it was RAM losing the battle with Windows 7, 8, at the time and like the rest of you, my Computer would lockup, crash, requiring a reboot, needless to say you know what happens to unsaved files in Win Environment it will ultimately lead to corrupted files or worse.

My best solution, maxed my Ram to 16 Megs, add SSD over mechanical, and finally, I was holding my breath, upgrade to Win 10, because of implied better memory mgt......

Now I need to take some responsibility here, I should in the future, as others have suggested, spend more money for Gaming Computer Laptop than trying to go on the cheap like I did, because it cost me dearly, so in retrospect hard lessons well learned and experience is in the end the best teacher painful as it is.

I'm glad I upgraded the Computer for now, but I'm stuck with no upgrade for dedicated GPU on MOB, which sucks and always has, and it's ridiculous or impossible to make a MOB change out on Laptop, just plain to hard by design. So there you have it.

Now there is a ray of sunshine for ole Blue here, I do have a brand new HP Desktop, that I can work with later when I get some time, and it is somewhat portable in the sense everything is contained in a monitor, and I believe the GPU is upgrade-able , so will see when I get to that part. And I'll report back later in the year, as other pressing things, like a major roof leak need my attention first.