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View Full Version : My New Year's wish from N3V Games....



VinnyBarb
December 29th, 2015, 03:26 AM
My New Year's wish from N3V Games would be for them to create TANE specific pages only as a separate section in the DevWiki with all the NEW tags and other things new to TANE etc. compared to TS12 or older Trainz versions listed there. Explaining in detail what each tag does, how to configure this proper and hopefully with an example of the config.txt file with that specific tag in it configured proper. As now one needs first to know the tag, search for it (more often than not it is TBA) and give up. What we CCs need is nice, clear, concise pages which get periodically updated by N3V Games to see what is new for TANE as they iron out bugs or introduce new "features".

Plus ANYTHING relevant for Content Creating for TANE only on these pages as just by saying "Just create for TS12 and all will be right for TANE when importing into TANE". As we all know this is not true as there are still errors to be shown and heaps of warnings of TS12 specific content, when imported into TANE. How about it N3V Games?

What do other content creators think of this idea?

I hope this is not wishful dreaming?

VinnyBarb

Dap
December 29th, 2015, 10:57 AM
Something along these lines would make my new year much more productive in my CC activities.

David

martinvk
December 29th, 2015, 03:55 PM
While we're waiting, isn't a WIKI a place where everyone and anyone can contribute? Sure it would be nice if N3V put it all up like the CCG of old. That was then, this is now and now it is a distributed model of information sharing that is the fashion and not the old top down model.

VinnyBarb
December 29th, 2015, 04:00 PM
Very well for us to contribute BUT we need to know what is NEW FIRST, how else could we do this then?

I think us CCs just have to muddle along with our eyes closed as before as sure as a dalmatian (dog) can not change its spots, so can not N3V Games (by seeing what is/was happening in the past).

My opinion

VinnyBarb

rumour3
December 29th, 2015, 04:04 PM
The distributed model is fine if the information is distributed in the first place. Chris's Google docs were a step in the right direction but I'm concerned that the momentum to keep producing these might have been lost- where is the doc for interlocking towers, for example? Would be good to see more new technical docs devoted to any new features appearing in the New Year.

R3

martinvk
December 29th, 2015, 05:00 PM
Sadly, I have to agree with you both. Back in the day, many of the "hidden" features were simple enough that many of the more clever creators were able to figure them out and share those discoveries with the rest of us mere mortals. Having seen some of the latest offerings, for example the procedural tracks, I was able to muddle through and made a set of my own but I'm sure I made some off the mark guesses on some values. It "works" but the down the track consequences are not known without some insight into the behind the scenes processes. Before I lead unsuspecting people astray with my guesses I would want to fully understand the process and that can only come from those who designed it.

I think we need more than just, this is the value. We need to know why it is that value, what happens if a different value is used and how much can it be different before bad things happen.

pcas1986
December 29th, 2015, 05:30 PM
I've said it a few times now but AssetX will show the tags available for a particular kind and there is a hot link to take you to the specific tag in the WiKi pages for information. But if you don't use AssetX then you can just keep bookmarks to the main Kind page (http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/Category:Asset_KIND) and the Containers page (http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/Category:Config_Container). Both of these are good starting points for drilling down into the detail. AssetX hasn't been fully updated for T:ANE.

Chris (windwalkr) has said that the WiKi pages should reflect the current release of Trainz which obviously makes it difficult for those supporting older version assets.

One of my Trainz activities is updating WiKi pages when I have new information that is not in the relevant WiKI page. I'll admit I haven't done much of that lately.

It seems to me that the WiKi pages, those for content creators, are in two parts. There are the detailed pages such as the Kind and container pages, and then there are the "How To" pages. The How To pages can be difficult to write because the topic can get very complex. For example, writing a How To on building a loco, such as VinnyBarb's diesels, could be the size of a small book!

It's also worthwhile occasionally checking the Special Pages and then both New Pages and Recent Changes. Chris and other N3V staff often update these pages.

I also started this page (http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/Repairing_assets_for_T:ANE) on repairing assets for T:ANE but, currently, there is no link to it. Perhaps, with the release of SP1, this might be a good time to include a link within the main content creation page (http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/Content_Creation). I'm happy to update the "repair page" if there are missing errors and solutions.

martinvk
December 29th, 2015, 05:35 PM
...
One of my Trainz activities is updating WiKi pages when I have new information that is not in the relevant WiKI page. I'll admit I haven't done much of that lately.
I salute you my friend, we would all be poorer without the efforts of people like you.

VinnyBarb
December 29th, 2015, 07:14 PM
I've said it a few times now but AssetX will show the tags available for a particular kind and there is a hot link to take you to the specific tag in the WiKi pages for information. But if you don't use AssetX then you can just keep bookmarks to the main Kind page (http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/Category:Asset_KIND) and the Containers page (http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/Category:Config_Container). Both of these are good starting points for drilling down into the detail. AssetX hasn't been fully updated for T:ANE.

Chris (windwalkr) has said that the WiKi pages should reflect the current release of Trainz which obviously makes it difficult for those supporting older version assets.

One of my Trainz activities is updating WiKi pages when I have new information that is not in the relevant WiKI page. I'll admit I haven't done much of that lately.

It seems to me that the WiKi pages, those for content creators, are in two parts. There are the detailed pages such as the Kind and container pages, and then there are the "How To" pages. The How To pages can be difficult to write because the topic can get very complex. For example, writing a How To on building a loco, such as VinnyBarb's diesels, could be the size of a small book!

It's also worthwhile occasionally checking the Special Pages and then both New Pages and Recent Changes. Chris and other N3V staff often update these pages.

I also started this page (http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/Repairing_assets_for_T:ANE) on repairing assets for T:ANE but, currently, there is no link to it. Perhaps, with the release of SP1, this might be a good time to include a link within the main content creation page (http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/Content_Creation). I'm happy to update the "repair page" if there are missing errors and solutions.

I also salute you Paul for the work you do in the DevWiki but here is the rub. Not everyone uses AssetX, to me this is just another instance to "hopefully" find what one is looking for. ALL the info for TANE should be centralized and up to date and easily to be found in the DevWiki but there again, search lets one down in the DevWiki. How many times have I searched for something, say as an example "auto numbering" or such, which is not exactly the search term needed to find but as used time and time again in the CC forum for numbering locomotives and rolling stock and will not be found there but only what is listed under "locomotive numbering" or such (example only but you get the idea). There are many examples like that in the DevWiki.

Also, the case with Chris's Google docs, this smacks of "elitist" or "privileged" only, to look these up, one needs first to be registered to the "Dev Forum", then registered with Google (Gmail I think) etc., to get the links off Chris and peruse them. Why not the generic, run of the mill Content Creator, who would like to know all this too? Why should he/she be locked out of discussions of improving TANE and for assessing these Google docs too (unless this has changed in the meantime but not when I looked these up last)? Why split this from the main look up pages for Content Creating, which the DevWiki is meant to be?

And so on, I always said, AURAN then, now N3V Games, know how the game is coded, hence what needs to be done to create for it. Without getting this knowledge from them, we CCs are tapping around blind mice and TANE is the poorer for that. Just while I think of it, another example is the water in TANE, N3V knows how this works with ripples etc., why not share this "secret" with us CCs, so some of us can create realistic river flow, water falls, whatever is connected with water, where water flows higher over rocks in the water, has eddies and swirls, is slow on the river edge, faster flowing towards the middle etc., in other words REALISTIC. This should not be a "trade" secret as other developers like Dungeon Siege, Skyrim, Dragon Age etc. produced realist water flow and I mean VERY REALISTIC WATER some several years ago, not that woeful attempt we see currently in TANE.

Will wait with baited breath for an answer from the powers that be but I can only hold my breath for so long. Over to you N3V.

My opinion

VinnyBarb

WindWalkr
December 29th, 2015, 08:27 PM
This topic seems to come up from time to time and unfortunately the answer is the same as always- we take it as part of our job to provide the basic information required for each new system and the new tags that we expect people to use, but we don't have the manpower to write large guides, especially where such guides delve into non-Trainz subjects such as the use of 3DS Max or etc.

The google docs are definitely "privileged" in the sense that you guys are the only ones with access to them. They're not written with the intent of distribution but are instead for internal use in developing the systems. We may or may not ever distribute them, depending on whether we think the value they represent outweighs the complexity of reading them. We will definitely excerpt the relevant user-facing portions of these documents into the wiki when the product is released.

I will add my thanks to those users who help expand the wiki. It's a large job, and mostly thankless compared to other aspects of content creation.

chris

VinnyBarb
December 29th, 2015, 09:16 PM
This topic seems to come up from time to time and unfortunately the answer is the same as always- we take it as part of our job to provide the basic information required for each new system and the new tags that we expect people to use, but we don't have the manpower to write large guides, especially where such guides delve into non-Trainz subjects such as the use of 3DS Max or etc.

How hard is it to type in an entry into the DevWiki from your side for a particular tag with some relevant configuration etc. and repeat that several days later for another tag and so on. Over a given time we CCs would get to know all of what we need to know and can get on with good, correct and proper Content Creating. Hence it is a very poor excuse to state about not "enough manpower" or whatever.


The google docs are definitely "privileged" in the sense that you guys are the only ones with access to them. They're not written with the intent of distribution but are instead for internal use in developing the systems. We may or may not ever distribute them, depending on whether we think the value they represent outweighs the complexity of reading them. We will definitely excerpt the relevant user-facing portions of these documents into the wiki when the product is released.

Why "privileged"? Do you think we Content Creators are morons, can not think and reason and hence can not handle these? You might be surprised that some of us think "outside the square" and can make improvements etc. of what can be done with Content Creating and have done so in the past. You really have a very low opinion of us Content Creators. Isn't it more sensible, the more we Content Creators know of your so called statement: "The google docs are definitely "privileged" in the sense that you guys are the only ones with access to them. They're not written with the intent of distribution but are instead for internal use in developing the systems. We may or may not ever distribute them, depending on whether we think the value they represent outweighs the complexity of reading them. (<---hahaha, that really takes the cake). We will definitely excerpt the relevant user-facing portions <---(hahaha, some more,whatever that gobbledygook means) of these documents into the wiki when the product is released", we Content Creators can collectively input more remedies, solution and fixes to some of the issues ailing TANE.

(Shakes head in disbelieve about the italic statement by Chris)


I will add my thanks to those users who help expand the wiki. It's a large job, and mostly thankless compared to other aspects of content creation.

chris

So will I BUT ULTIMATELY as stated OVER AND OVER by us CCs, you guys code the game, you guys know what is needed to implement proper and correct Content Creating for TANE, hence it is YOUR OBLIGATION to let us mere mortals know what and how to do this which in the end benefits all. You, N3V Games and the many potential buyers of TANE with better content and better creating by us CCs, which as I see it is so far SADLY MISSING for TANE.

Isn't this what we all want?

My opinion

VinnyBarb

WindWalkr
December 29th, 2015, 10:56 PM
How hard is it to type in an entry into the DevWiki from your side for a particular tag with some relevant configuration etc. and repeat that several days later for another tag and so on.

Not hard at all. Which is why we do this. As above, what we don't have time to do is to write extensive guides about content creation.



Why "privileged"? Do you think we Content Creators are morons, can not think and reason and hence can not handle these?

No. I think that the features in question have not been released yet, and until they are, we're not going to provide the final documentation for them. We've stated this on a number of occasions, including my post above. Additionally, some of the documentation is indeed ridiculously detailed, to the extent that releasing it in it's current form is probably not going to do anybody any favours. This doesn't apply to all the documents, but there are definitely examples there where this is true, and filtering the wheat from the chaff is going to be necessary.

chris

VinnyBarb
December 30th, 2015, 12:13 AM
Chris, have a Happy New Year and may all the differences between you (N3V Games) and us mere mortal Content Creators become one common denominator and we will be able to talk, read and learn from the same page, (figuratively speaking) so this will make us all happy in the New Year :hehe:.

Perhaps by reading some of your above posts you might have started already to celebrate :p. Or perhaps not.

Have a HAPPY NEW YEAR.

VinnyBarb

WindWalkr
December 30th, 2015, 12:49 AM
Perhaps by reading some of your above posts you might have started already to celebrate :p. Or perhaps not.

Not yet, still busy with SP1 :)

But I'm looking forward to end of work on Thursday ;-)



Have a HAPPY NEW YEAR.

You too, mate. Keep up the good work.

chris

pcas1986
December 30th, 2015, 02:18 AM
I think the pages could be tagged with something that might make searching easier. That said, I generally don't have a problem finding stuff but I admit that using the right search criteria can be an issue.

From my perspective, I think that getting a stable T:ANE that satisfies most users has to be a priority for N3V. For those that have been following the beta releases, you would have to admit that N3V are trying really hard to reach that goal.

The WiKI, I think, is a community thing. If you have something you would like to add to the WiKI, I am very happy to do so on your behalf. But, my only proviso is that I will try and prove any assertions you might make. Sometimes, that can be difficult. I still have one by Deane that I cannot prove, or disprove, without an incredible amount of work.

WindWalkr
December 30th, 2015, 05:56 AM
I think the pages could be tagged with something that might make searching easier. That said, I generally don't have a problem finding stuff but I admit that using the right search criteria can be an issue.

TBQH, google search works a lot better than the on-site search. Just tell google that you'd like it to search our wiki and then use it as normal.



I still have one by Deane that I cannot prove, or disprove, without an incredible amount of work.

Which one is that? If it's something that I can answer then I'd be glad to..

chris

pcas1986
December 30th, 2015, 06:16 AM
...
Which one is that? If it's something that I can answer then I'd be glad to..

chris

I'll have to try and find the relevant e-mails. As I recall, it was an issue with a seasons tag in a track-lod-tree. I had to build a special mountainous route with a seasonal track to prove or disprove the assertion. Leave it with me and hopefully I can find the details.