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pinkmundi
November 23rd, 2015, 02:49 AM
Hi everyone. I felt I needed to say a few words on behalf of struggling pensioners. I have been a keen user and supporter of Trainz since the Ultimate series. I now have shelves with every version since. When TANE was announced, I threw my support behind it in all ways. I now have my version of TANE. But here is the problem. My computer is not capable of running it, and as much as I would like to, I simply can't afford to update my computer for some time. I have reverted to TS12, but have so much trouble with assets disappearing that many of my layouts are no longer usable. I am very worried that previous versions of Trainz have been left unsupported now TANE is here. I don't think I am the only person effected, and will be interested thear your views.

LNERlover5
November 23rd, 2015, 03:37 AM
It's a cold truth that N3V can't continue to support every version of Trainz forever, it just makes no financial sense on their part, which is completely fair. This is the same with every software product.

Jack

Saieditor
November 23rd, 2015, 05:31 AM
It is hard to put money away and save for a new computer. I compromised and bought a new laptop, but it will not run TANE.

Having been a software developer myself, I understand the point of view Jack puts, and I understand N3V need for revenue. Fortnightly salaries have to be paid.

We do have a lot of people here, over the retirement age .... what solution might be found for them?

cascaderailroad
November 23rd, 2015, 05:40 AM
You can get TRS2006 and play it on any ol' cheepo integrated graphics $479 laptop :hehe:

boleyd
November 23rd, 2015, 05:41 AM
I am in your group. I had to go back to TS2012 awhile ago since N3V REFUSES to identify missing splines and textures in TANE. I found that routes that used to be ok now had missing items and, in some cases, they were the same things that TANE showed as missing. What a mess. Thus people who are stuck on TS2012, for various reasons, find that TS2012 is NOT FULLY supported and they must repair things instead of enjoying the product in the same manner they used to..

It is not the fault of TANE but the brute force way N3V handled "cleaning" the database. There were ways to do it and retain the good will of customers who elected to stay with TS2012. BUT.... Blame management.

Lataxe
November 23rd, 2015, 06:41 AM
[Lost in a forum glitch]

Roy3b3
November 23rd, 2015, 07:11 AM
Hi everyone. I felt I needed to say a few words on behalf of struggling pensioners. I have been a keen user and supporter of Trainz since the Ultimate series. I now have shelves with every version since. When TANE was announced, I threw my support behind it in all ways. I now have my version of TANE. But here is the problem. My computer is not capable of running it, and as much as I would like to, I simply can't afford to update my computer for some time. I have reverted to TS12, but have so much trouble with assets disappearing that many of my layouts are no longer usable. I am very worried that previous versions of Trainz have been left unsupported now TANE is here. I don't think I am the only person effected, and will be interested thear your views.

Hi pinkmundi,
You are not alone! I'm 77 years of age and receive an age pension too. I purchased TS2010 five years ago and found a hobby,... one I could get my teeth into, become creative and really enjoy. When I wanted to upgrade to TS12 I realised that with more frills, generally most computers are forced under additional loads. So I delayed purchasing TS12, whilst I put away $20 every fortnight (pension day) until I had sufficient to not only upgrade my computer with more RAM and a new Video Driver including the installation. Then I bought TS12. I did the same when I joined the Kickstarter program for the development of T:ANE.

What I'm trying to say is, if you want something badly enough, then you can make it happen for yourself. Of course, sacrifices of other things you like as well as, time delays have to be made to get what you want.
In the meantime, have a close look at your computer, clean up any unwanted files, get some quotations for what upgrades you need and set yourself a tighter budget. If you do, you'll make it.

Although I'm enjoying T:ANE, I still use TS12 quite regularly, mainly because most of my routes are there. I know what you mean when you are concerned about lack of support for older Trainz versions, but I feel that if you maintain your TS12 program with up-to-date database repairs, and even clean out any unwanted routes you may have downloaded, then your program will be fully functional. Remember, many Trainz Members will continue to use older versions; and most importantly, you can always use the Forum for any assistance or queries you may have. Don't worry, Trainz and the Forum will be around for many years to come.
Good luck mate!
Cheers,
Roy3b3

chris2001trainz2010
November 23rd, 2015, 07:22 AM
It's a cold truth that N3V can't continue to support every version of Trainz forever, it just makes no financial sense on their part, which is completely fair. This is the same with every software product.

Jack

But they dropped support for TS10 and TS12 Pre-SP1 way to fast. At least TS12 Pre-SP1 should've been supported longer. Does N3V even know how many of us use those older versions?

cascaderailroad
November 23rd, 2015, 07:31 AM
It's a cold truth that N3V can't continue to support every version of Trainz forever, it just makes no financial sense on their part, which is completely fair. This is the same with every software product.

Jack


The cold truth is that T:ANE has not been perfected, and is not optimized, and is a beta WIP, and is an unfinished game ... and they will be dropping support for TS12 soon ... that just dosn't make sense, especially if T:ANE is a complete FLOP ... with traffic light intersections hovering in the sky, orange grid box's everywhere, and prehistoric dinosaur animated German Shepard dog pterodactyls in the sky, has a pink/green chessboard terrain grid, and see through transparent baseboard textures ... all these things that the end user must fix themselves, or the game is virtually useless ... T:ANE TUV (The Unfinished Version) PreSP1Beta3

pcas1986
November 23rd, 2015, 08:12 AM
... and prehistoric dinosaur animated German Shepard dog pterodactyls in the sky, ...

I thought I'd go check on Fido and I'm afraid he doesn't look very healthy in the latest SP1 beta:

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z410/casper131/Ashampoo_Snap_2015.11.24_00h05m00s_011_Trainz-%20A%20New%20Era_zpspmm9vc4m.jpg

Visually, its better than the pterodactyl look, but he definitely not wagging his tail or anything else. Graphically he looks great but he also appears to be rather dead.

LNERlover5
November 23rd, 2015, 08:19 AM
Does N3V even know how many of us use those older versions?

It's not their priority to care. People buying the latest versions to allow for revenue flow that pays the bills is what matters from their perspective, however I recall Tony suggesting it's the mobile versions of Trainz that actually bring in that revenue. I'm fine with this because I have no choice, that's life.


The cold truth is that T:ANE has not been perfected, and is not optimized, and is a beta WIP, and is an unfinished game ... and they will be dropping support for TS12 soon ... that just dosn't make sense, especially if T:ANE is a complete FLOP ... with traffic light intersections hovering in the sky, orange grid box's everywhere, and prehistoric dinosaur animated German Shepard dog pterodactyls in the sky, has a pink/green chessboard terrain grid, and see through transparent baseboard textures ... all these things that the end user must fix themselves, or the game is virtually useless ... T:ANE TUV (The Unfinished Version) PreSP1Beta3

You're arguing with the wrong person. I never said I'm happy with T:ANE being released in an unfinished state, but from my perspective beyond these bugs which are being fixed based on SP1 tests, T:ANE is just better than anything before it. It actually runs well on higher end hardware for once... Meanwhile I recall you suggesting 16FPS is fine from 2006, which is pathetic performance wise. You keep using it though, nobody is telling you to stop. Telling others to go back 10 years to validate your opinions however is nonsensical, because TRS2006 isn't very good compared to what we have now.

Jack

nicky9499
November 23rd, 2015, 09:40 AM
It's not their priority to care.

Continue not caring then, I wish them luck in their future endeavors.

LNERlover5
November 23rd, 2015, 09:48 AM
Continue not caring then, I wish them luck in their future endeavors.

Funny how cutting off the remainder of my comment completely dilutes my point. Software companies don't support older software in the long term, from N3V to Microsoft. It makes no sense from a financial perspective because people sticking to older version aren't actually contributing in a financial sense. Even then I'm not saying you have to, it's a product after all and if it doesn't meet your expectations, you don't need to buy it, likewise, the company doesn't need to continue supporting you after a period of time.

Vern
November 23rd, 2015, 10:42 AM
Yes but you generally cut support for older versions once the new is settled down and established and most users have migrated across to it. Look how long MS kept support for XP going!

Purely IMHO they should be looking at keeping full support for TS12 going until at least 2018 and maybe restoring TS2010 into the lifecycle policy, even if SP1 manages to transform TANE into something approximating what was promised. As regards the mobile versions, well if a cut down version designed to exploit money via the freemium business model is the way of the future - I'm going back to building a model railway as it would be cheaper in the long term!

LNERlover5
November 23rd, 2015, 11:11 AM
well if a cut down version designed to exploit money via the freemium business model is the way of the future - I'm going back to building a model railway as it would be cheaper in the long term!

It's the market dominance of ARM based mobile devices over x86 based computing. Mobile is just a cash cow for now and into the foreseeable future based simply on what devices people are buying.

johnwhelan
November 23rd, 2015, 11:37 AM
Hi everyone. I felt I needed to say a few words on behalf of struggling pensioners. I have been a keen user and supporter of Trainz since the Ultimate series. I now have shelves with every version since. When TANE was announced, I threw my support behind it in all ways. I now have my version of TANE. But here is the problem. My computer is not capable of running it, and as much as I would like to, I simply can't afford to update my computer for some time. I have reverted to TS12, but have so much trouble with assets disappearing that many of my layouts are no longer usable. I am very worried that previous versions of Trainz have been left unsupported now TANE is here. I don't think I am the only person effected, and will be interested thear your views.

I think there are multiple markets for Trainz, for those with less funds than they might like TS12 will continue to run when access to the DLS is cut off without a FCT then there are always various sites around that have downloadable content. I think TS12 is the least demanding of all the versions for mid range and lower hardware given the same viewing distance and assets.

Some pensioners do have funds available, for them TANE running on a GTX980 is viable and gives you far greater control. Some assets are far more demanding than others, there are ways in TANE to identify these assets. For certain layouts TANE will run them on my machine but the same layout under TS12 stutters to say the least.

At the moment its a matter of trying to see what the minimum GPU is acceptable. For some this is the Intel Integrated: Iris Pro Graphics 6200, AMD cards seem to have problems at the moment. Probably a GTX 960 would be enough around $200 US at Newegg.com the GTX 950 is worth looking at and a GTX 970 would definitely work. However these cards can be big and although they don't have a high current draw they may not fit in your case. Note the CPU is not especially important with TANE.

It might be interesting to know what your computer is. TANE as I mentioned is capable of detecting assets that perform badly and if you set the sliders down to the left it maybe possible to get acceptable performance on your system. I assume you have tried shadows off?

Cheerio John

jkinzel
November 23rd, 2015, 11:54 AM
I can sympathies with pinkmundi. I'm retired and don't really want to spend a lot of money on a new system just to run trainz. My existing HP e9110t, built in Aug. 2009, can run TANE with the shadows turned off and all other settings set to medium or low. TS12 is jerky and slow.

I have been shopping for a computer and it seems to get a machine that will handle TANE with no problems is going to start at $1,000 to $1,200 US, no monitor. The criteria I'm using is information I gathered from reading post in "Parts and Labor" and not from N3V so if anyone see's any problems with them please let me/us know, I'm not a computer geek.

Motherboard: MSI Z170 Gaming M7
Intel 6th Gen. i5-6600K 3.5GHz, 6MB shared cache
16 GB or more Corsair Vengence DDR4 Memory
1TB HDD
Nvidia 4GB GeForce GTX 960 or better
Powers Supply: 500 to 650W
CD Tray
And the usual software, case, monitor if needed, etc.

Regards,

KenGreen
November 23rd, 2015, 12:15 PM
I think we all understand that N3V rely on income but they also need goodwill and by cutting off support for TS2010 and below, introducing DRM on a patched version of TS12 and trying to force people to use TANE they certainly are not going the right way about it. Do the users of mobile devices have access to the DLS if so do they buy FCTs and upload quality assets. I have the iPad version but to me it is unusable, fortunately for N3V the TANE version is being bought for it.
People who use older versions of Trainz may want to use the newer versions if they eventually buy a new PC. In a few year's time an average priced PC will be able to run TANE. I personally don't beleive there will be a TANE2 it will be just TANE 1.x.

Ken

chris2001trainz2010
November 23rd, 2015, 04:20 PM
It's not their [N3V's] priority to care.

Oh, it's not a company's priority to care about how many people still use which version of the game? Seems pretty important to me from a financial standpoint, Jack.


People buying the latest versions to allow for revenue flow that pays the bills is what matters from their perspective...

Yet people are buying the latest game not knowing it isn't complete. A game should NOT take a full Service Pack to be a complete game. A game should be released when it is complete, but these companies still insist on psuhing out these unfinished games just to make a profit or to meet a strict deadline. If i could use a video game analogy, look at the game Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric, a buggy, unpolished mess with no value to the customers whatsoever, all because it was rushed to meet a deadline. If T:ANE was worked on for a few months longer, maybe the customers would have gotten a complete and, more importantly, a better game.


...however I recall Tony suggesting it's the mobile versions of Trainz that actually bring in that revenue.

That's sad how Tony is relying on these mobile games that look like TS04 for financial backup. Trainz has always been a computer game, and making it mobile at the cost of better graphics seems like a shameless cash grab to me.


...T:ANE is just better than anything before it

That's a good joke you got there.

But seriously now, do you really think that it's better than TS12? I can barely run T:ANE at all just because of the horrid 5-7 FPS i get on a higher end machine, whereas i get upwards of 40 FPS in TS12, or maybe around 20-25 FPS in a condensed area. A game like T:ANE that requires a supercomputer to operate with acceptable frame rates greatly decreases the number of people who will enjoy the game. Yes, i use a lower-end GFX card, but if i can run TS12 as well as i can, but can't run T:ANE, then something's wrong here.


Meanwhile I recall you [cascaderailroad] suggesting 16FPS is fine from 2006, which is pathetic performance wise.

I agree with you here. Today, that would be considered horrid, but back in the day, computers were not nearly as powerful as they are today. You need to look at this from the perspective of a person who ran TS06 for 5-6 years with a lower-end computer in general (old CPU, old GFX, low RAM, etc.) and got framerates half that in some areas. Yes, that's unacceptable nowadays, but it's also unacceptable that T:ANE runs like crap when TS12 runs fine for most of us.


TRS2006 isn't very good compared to what we have now

Though it's higher on my list than T:ANE ever will be, that's for sure.

Regards,

steve123
November 23rd, 2015, 04:33 PM
I cannot see a T.ANE 2 coming either as there is so much more that can be added to T.ANE, maybe 2021 i don't believe sooner or alot of money would be wasted, considering that we had been on the same platform for
near 13 years before T.ANE.

T.ANE is the best by far of all version of Trainz but it was clear for me to see and to others it was really not ready to go and be promoted at that point in time, more work needed to be done behind the seens, at least 12 months.

T.ANE should have had SLI / Crossfire coded in it before release, this will be a thorn in the side of N3V as it was stated it would be coded so T.ANE could take advantage of multi GPU's which saved you money in
not having to build a new computer and only having to buy another video card the same as you already had. They tried to tell me that it was a stretch goal, still tell me that SLI / Crossfire is coming.

This will open up a can of worms if they don't code T.ANE for SLI / Crossfire because my support and others was based on this one fact.

I have stated before many times that T.ANE needed to have these codes placed because i saw the writting on the wall with older computers not being able to run T.ANE and SLI / Crossfire was the cheapest way out
for the more senior members and others who did not wish to spend the money.

However there are many members like myself who have downloaded many many assetts and just keep them stored on hardrives from 2004 to T.ANE all you need is the Trainz user name to get to there assets.

Regards steve123

rjhowie
November 23rd, 2015, 09:54 PM
Unfortunately for some folk we l do iive in a very practical world and society cannot suit every single personality even though we wil have sympathy. I took early retirement due to ill-health but now have two pensions and I save well at the same time. Having been a life long railway and trams fany finding trainz by chance years ago was a sure delight and with more variety than what was elsewhere. We will all decide individually what we want to spend money on and with erratic health from time to time, Trainz is my personal joy and the more physical pastimes of earlier years I use some sense on so it is a great investment hobby and gives me much to look forward to.

As for NV3 to keep supporting earlier versions although that might seem fine for those happy with the one they have it is equally a good argument to concentrate on progress and use time and efforts more in a concentrated view. My present project is on TRS2012 but I have got T:ANE as well now. So we cannot all be the same in life unless we choose a dictatorship mind and able to spend on what I want, enjoy and keeps the grey cells functioning!

ps. Don't drink or smoke but occasionally enjoy the kiss of a charming lady :hehe:

RRSignal
November 23rd, 2015, 10:44 PM
But seriously now, do you really think that it's better than TS12

The 12,000m draw distance I use makes a huge difference, versus the 2,000 or so on TS12. On an ancient GTX550TI, I get between 50-60fps on my scenery-dense route, either in cab mode or with 5 JR EMDs in view. With an entire 60+ car train in view (and 12km of scenery), it drops to about 33fps in the worst spots, but that's still not too shabby, especially considering my card is well-below spec. This is without shadows, of course, and I'd sure like them. And, scenery objects in T:ANE often pop in much closer than 12,000m. But 6 times the overall draw distance of TS12 makes T:ANE worth it for me.

H222
November 23rd, 2015, 11:56 PM
Continue not caring then, I wish them luck in their future endeavors.

Support lasts 4 or 5 years on a $50 game. That's between $10-12 for a year playing the game while supported. For so little return, caring is not really worth it

nicky9499
November 24th, 2015, 03:52 AM
That's perfectly fine. Some people like to keep saying that, right, "vote with your wallet"? Since there isn't a competent successor product it just means they've lost me as a paying customer.

They're lucky though, not everyone gets to con $200k out of their fans before screwing them over.

Enzo1
November 24th, 2015, 04:21 AM
The 12,000m draw distance I use makes a huge difference, versus the 2,000 or so on TS12. On an ancient GTX550TI, I get between 50-60fps on my scenery-dense route, either in cab mode or with 5 JR EMDs in view. With an entire 60+ car train in view (and 12km of scenery), it drops to about 33fps in the worst spots, but that's still not too shabby, especially considering my card is well-below spec. This is without shadows, of course, and I'd sure like them. And, scenery objects in T:ANE often pop in much closer than 12,000m. But 6 times the overall draw distance of TS12 makes T:ANE worth it for me.
While I agree, I love extreme draw distances, TANE does not utilize how powerful the feature could be. I'm sorry, but 12,000m draws that look like utter garbage do not win me over in any category. SP1 is an improvement I'm quite impressed with, but I'm still disappointed at the same time, and I know many others are too. There is still no utilization of TANE's full power and prowess, and what's worse, is most of what we're asking for is more than realistically reachable with the new program. However, the lack of competency continues to kill any advancement of this train simulator and this will eventually fade off into the sunset just like MSTS did in it's time.


It's not their priority to care. People buying the latest versions to allow for revenue flow that pays the bills is what matters from their perspective, however I recall Tony suggesting it's the mobile versions of Trainz that actually bring in that revenue. I'm fine with this because I have no choice, that's life.

Sadly, this is why we don't have any change. Too many people think this way, and this allows poor management to flourish uncontested, ruining civilization.


You're arguing with the wrong person. I never said I'm happy with T:ANE being released in an unfinished state, but from my perspective beyond these bugs which are being fixed based on SP1 tests, T:ANE is just better than anything before it. It actually runs well on higher end hardware for once... Meanwhile I recall you suggesting 16FPS is fine from 2006, which is pathetic performance wise. You keep using it though, nobody is telling you to stop. Telling others to go back 10 years to validate your opinions however is nonsensical, because TRS2006 isn't very good compared to what we have now.
As somebody who has experience with a varitey of train sims, and other simulators, I think they serve as incredible examples of what can be done with nothing. MSTS has physics and operational standards that are on par with some of the train sims being produced right now today. If I am not mistaken, you could run TRS2006 at 30FPS, which was a landmark at the time, though I most of the time only saw 20FPS when playing. I would like to see you prove to me where other than doppler effect, and speed trees, TRS2010, or TRS2012 is not the same platform that TRS2006 was built on. These two programs utilize features never even dreamed of in TRS2004 or 2006's days. Computers weren't even as powerful as today's computer, but they still use the same game engine and platform that TRS2004 and 2006 was built on.
Perhaps you should go back 10 years and look at what was, you'd be surprised how powerful some programs really were and still are. There are still servers out there using Windows XP server as the main OS. It's more secure than any of the OS's we're using right now. Sometimes, older is better.

LNERlover5
November 24th, 2015, 04:22 AM
Oh, it's not a company's priority to care about how many people still use which version of the game? Seems pretty important to me from a financial standpoint, Jack.

It really isn't. People who aren't using T:ANE or buying DLC aren't contributing financially. Incentivising you to buy the latest version is important however. I might sound cold, but then again, business actually is (cold).


Yet people are buying the latest game not knowing it isn't complete. A game should NOT take a full Service Pack to be a complete game. A game should be released when it is complete, but these companies still insist on psuhing out these unfinished games just to make a profit or to meet a strict deadline. If i could use a video game analogy, look at the game Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric, a buggy, unpolished mess with no value to the customers whatsoever, all because it was rushed to meet a deadline. If T:ANE was worked on for a few months longer, maybe the customers would have gotten a complete and, more importantly, a better game.

There are few games produced now that work perfectly out of the box due to the patching culture that developed from the availability of high speed broadband. Trainz isn't special in this regard. I don't agree with it, but there you go.


That's sad how Tony is relying on these mobile games that look like TS04 for financial backup. Trainz has always been a computer game, and making it mobile at the cost of better graphics seems like a shameless cash grab to me.

The general public are buying ARM based mobile devices at a rate that completely stomps that of x86 computers. It makes sense that targeting that huge demographic could be profitable. The reality is how many people are going to buy a train simulator, this isn't a general triple A release, this is targeted, niche software. Branching out makes sense and should't be discouraged if it works because as Tony said, no mobile releases, no Trainz.


I agree with you here. Today, that would be considered horrid, but back in the day, computers were not nearly as powerful as they are today. You need to look at this from the perspective of a person who ran TS06 for 5-6 years with a lower-end computer in general (old CPU, old GFX, low RAM, etc.) and got framerates half that in some areas. Yes, that's unacceptable nowadays, but it's also unacceptable that T:ANE runs like crap when TS12 runs fine for most of us.

TRS2006 was around at the same time roughly as the Intel Core 2 Duos and Core 2 quads, as well as the Geforce 8800 series. The performance was there at the time. In my experience, TS12 runs like crap for me even with an i5 4690K and an R9 270X, T:ANE actually takes advantage of this superior hardware and gives me good framerates above 45 FPS. Besides, it's not N3Vs job to cater to users with low end hardware, and I hope to god they don't tone down future releases just to satisfy the loud minority. This community is the only one I have ever come across where the users complain that their PC's can't run the software, yet they're using something like an R7 240! Any other game and the users actually realise they have insufficient hardware and deal with the fact! I know this thread was regarding the cost of this matter, but such is life...

I will admit though, one of the things I genuinely love about T:ANE is the strict asset validation. Poor quality content that is inefficient cannot sneak through the cracks and I love this. It has made my newer content significantly better because I had to work harder to make something genuinely good. The public release didn't work correctly in this regard, but it does now.

Jack (Who was woken up by a halls fire alarm and is a touch irate)

Enzo1
November 24th, 2015, 04:35 AM
It really isn't. People who aren't using T:ANE or buying DLC aren't contributing financially. Incentivising you to buy the latest version is important however. I might sound cold, but then again, business actually is (cold).



There are few games produced now that work perfectly out of the box due to the patching culture that developed from the availability of high speed broadband. Trainz isn't special in this regard. I don't agree with it, but there you go.



The general public are buying ARM based mobile devices at a rate that completely stomps that of x86 computers. It makes sense that targeting that huge demographic could be profitable. The reality is how many people are going to buy a train simulator, this isn't a general triple A release, this is targeted, niche software. Branching out makes sense and should't be discouraged if it works because as Tony said, no mobile releases, no Trainz.



TRS2006 was around at the same time roughly as the Intel Core 2 Duos and Core 2 quads, as well as the Geforce 8800 series. The performance was there at the time. In my experience, TS12 runs like crap for me even with an i5 4690K and an R9 270X, T:ANE actually takes advantage of this superior hardware and gives me good framerates above 45 FPS. Besides, it's not N3Vs job to cater to users with low end hardware, and I hope to god they don't tone down future releases just to satisfy the loud minority. This community is the only one I have ever come across where the users complain that their PC's can't run the software, yet they're using something like an R7 240! Any other game and the users actually realise they have insufficient hardware and deal with the fact! I know this thread was regarding the cost of this matter, but such is life...

I will admit though, one of the things I genuinely love about T:ANE is the strict asset validation. Poor quality content that is inefficient cannot sneak through the cracks and I love this. It has made my newer content significantly better because I had to work harder to make something genuinely good. The public release didn't work correctly in this regard, but it does now.

Jack (Who was woken up by a halls fire alarm and is a touch irate)
You make me laugh. Performance was there with Geforce 8800 series. (I played the latter with lesser stuff than that, and then a Core 2 duo and 9600GT played TS12 with 25 FPS, splendid for a 5 year old machine with outdated stuff) Do you really think you could run modern games with a 8800 series and get FPS? You're an idiot to think so. Graphics have come ridiculous distances from the 8800 series days. That's why I updated, but I had the money to do so. Not everybody does, and you have to be real, and look at the market base, and what they have. You'd be surprised what the numbers would look like if they did a real study of the entire base.


People who aren't using T:ANE or buying DLC aren't contributing financially
And this is why N3V will fail using that philosophy. Seen other game makers do this, and go broke. Yet, continuously, they listen to lousy fools like yourself, and get themselves screwed. I figure with the variety of examples we have, they'd learn by now, but then again, poor management, teaching, coaching, and thinking never fail to amaze me.

LNERlover5
November 24th, 2015, 05:05 AM
Do you really think you could run modern games with a 8800 series and get FPS? You're an idiot to think so.

Good thing I'm not an idiot then, because I don't. I merely suggested that TRS2006 was more than doable with that range of hardware from that time period, which is correct. You've only proven me right in saying you could get close to playable framerates in TS12 with even lesser hardware...


And this is why N3V will fail using that philosophy. Seen other game makers do this, and go broke. Yet, continuously, they listen to lousy fools like yourself, and get themselves screwed. I figure with the variety of examples we have, they'd learn by now, but then again, poor management, teaching, coaching, and thinking never fail to amaze me.

Either explain your point or don't call me a fool. What do you contribute that sustains the current business model if you aren't buying newer software or building content for said software. I like to think I've given as much as I could back to this community with the later if you look up my DLS results. I have tried...

nicky9499
November 24th, 2015, 06:51 AM
Jack, the point is that revenue is not to be taken for granted, and that it's not the customer's obligation to throw money at the company. If you do not produce a desirable product then you won't get the sales.

boleyd
November 24th, 2015, 08:19 AM
Ah, a typical internet forum. The original poster has a legitimate issue. However, the discussion turns to support of older products, love of customers, and some more pet grievances that people "must" always bring up in the vain hope they will be corrected. Sticking to the author's point eludes some as they are desperate to site their pet peeve one more time.

People who council continually to buy the 900 series video cards are ok if you want everything at a max setting - remember you paid Tony for those features!! However, I have had a 600 series video card and it worked very well with TS2012. T:ane need some more oomph. So I bought a 750 nVidia card and I am rational enough to accept that I can't have max settings despite "paying for them".

An i5 2500 series CPU, a 750 GPU, 8gb memory and Windows 10 provides a very satisfying product. I always stay behind the "latest and greatest" stuff. You pay a premium that is usually not proportional to the gain.

I also use the Lockheed Martin P3D flight simulator (yep a simulator). A very demanding product that again cannot work at max settings on this PC. BUT the settings that do work offer me a very good visual experience and a flight profile that is accurate. If you could see the ORBX airports, they put T:ANE to shame.

So, stick to the topic and post a specific message if you have your own issues.

johnwhelan
November 24th, 2015, 09:33 AM
You make me laugh. Performance was there with Geforce 8800 series. (I played the latter with lesser stuff than that, and then a Core 2 duo and 9600GT played TS12 with 25 FPS, splendid for a 5 year old machine with outdated stuff) Do you really think you could run modern games with a 8800 series and get FPS? You're an idiot to think so. Graphics have come ridiculous distances from the 8800 series days. That's why I updated, but I had the money to do so. Not everybody does, and you have to be real, and look at the market base, and what they have. You'd be surprised what the numbers would look like if they did a real study of the entire base.


And this is why N3V will fail using that philosophy. Seen other game makers do this, and go broke. Yet, continuously, they listen to lousy fools like yourself, and get themselves screwed. I figure with the variety of examples we have, they'd learn by now, but then again, poor management, teaching, coaching, and thinking never fail to amaze me.

When TANE moved to 64 bit instead of 32 bit in simple terms that meant that each program instruction became twice the length. That means more stuff to move round from the hard disk to the CPU etc More processing was moved onto the GPU so the GPU became more critical.

I don't think N3V did a survey about what hardware people had but assumed that computers would improve over time. Which leads us to the OP's point and unfortunately he was probably always going to get some sort of upgrade. The other part of Trainz is user content, we are very dependent on content made by users and LNERlover5 is one of the very good ones. Calling him a fool is not tactful to say the least, calling any one a fool usually means I don't have any solid augments to present so I'll fall back on a personal attack.

Please try to support our content creators and to some extent N3V identify issues and concerns, if I look through the forum you'll see I have done that a number of times. Expecting N3V to fail? Have you thought about taking up basket weaving?

Cheerio John
.

Vern
November 24th, 2015, 11:15 AM
Coming back to the OP, he isn't honestly missing out on very much by not being able to run TANE. As discussed before, the programme requires far more hardware oomph to run graphics that are not in all honesty that different to its predecessors. We are still looking at the same soft focus cross between a cartoon and water painting effect, not a radically new photo realistic environment. Okay it's down to individual perception and the Defenders Of The Faith will attempt to belittle such views, but even if SP1 puts everything working reliably as it should have been in the first place - it still looks like (at best) 2006 level graphics.

martinvk
November 24th, 2015, 11:34 AM
The belittling comments aside, it is as you say a matter of individual perception. Whereas the old versions were reaching the limits of hardware technology, the promise of the new Engine running T:ANE is that it can go much further. Of course the objects themselves have to be made to use that capability, it cannot work miracles. And since object creation is getting harder with more stringent requirements, it will take longer than in the past to get new models into the game.

JCitron
November 24th, 2015, 12:09 PM
Back to the original pinkmundi's original post...

I too am also a pensioner, and a young one at that as I found myself suddenly unable to work at 52 years old! This comes to a shock in many aspects of ones life including entertainment. Gone are my extensive travel holidays paid for by tax refunds and accrued vacation time, gone are other things like going out to eat and treating friends and family because I can. Instead my life is spent on more simple things, things I can enjoy though not overboard.

Now even as a pensioner, who is still facing high expenses such as automobile payments, a mortgage, and now additional medical expenses, I still have hobbies. I would go absolutely batty without them as they keep me occupied. If I'm not tuning and playing my clavichord, or practicing something on the piano though my playing ability is far below what it ever was, I'm using Trainz and working on various projects.

Trainz like any hobby requires an investment, whether it's in the program its self, the FCT, or computer hardware. This is no different than if it were a car racing program, or even an actual model railroad, which with the latter being even more expensive than what we would be paying to enjoy our virtual hobby. Being a pensioner now means I can no longer plunk down the credit card and buy what I want. If I see a Trainz upgrade, I save for it whether it's a few dollars here, or another few bucks there. I did this recently too when I needed to replace my computer hardware. In this case I used my PayPal credit line which I had paid down completely a few years ago. This is pretty much all I use it for anyway. The point is though, it's not as easy as it was, and now it takes longer to get the things I want to enjoy.

Computer hardware sadly does not have value no matter how much money you pay for it, and the same goes with the software. You pay hundreds of dollars for the initial buy and a year later you find it all in the bargain bin at closeout prices. This is the same for other consumer and professional electronics as well. A Roland digital piano for example, a professional digital grand at that, will start at $7500. When the new model comes out next year, or six months from now, the price of this instrument will drop to half that. Sure we can now get an awesome instrument, but the newer model will have better sound capabilities and other things which make it far better than what we can afford. This is the price of technology. This is no different with CPUs, video cards, LCD displays, mobile phones, and so on.

Software is no different. Over the years, we probably have spent thousands of dollars in operating systems, graphics software, office suites, and other packages, which today will not run on our machines as they don't have the code to handle the new hardware, or can run with the new operating system. I have boxes and boxes of floppy disks and CDs of programs I just can't part with yet because it's a waste to do so. On the business side, it can get worse. We spent $57,000 for an image setter to output film. A few years ago, we switched to plain paper because film processing chemistry was too expensive, though the quality is higher. The $57,000 image setter was worth $2000 in scrap value and $500 intact. The machine was about 20 years old but still working, and used a '486 as a RIP, but is now outdated and needed to be replaced.

We don't seem to complain about that too loudly, however, when it comes to Trainz we piss and moan loudly. Why? N3V is no different than Adobe, Microsoft, and so many other companies out there that sell their software. We'll plunk down $60 or more for GTA5 or the latest racing game with a locked environment; one that can't be altered, and requires strictly payware to play, but complain about N3V selling T:ANE. Sure T:ANE right now doesn't seem to have much going for it. However, work with it and it will surprise you. I have been quite amazed as has boyled and rrsignal. Even with my GTX780Ti, I don't set my draw distances out, however, I do set the shadows to high along with higher settings for the other slides except for post processing and A/A. This gives me enough shadows and bouncy lighting to bring the scenery to life. These are similar settings I also use in other graphically intensive games such as Armor3 which has lots of post-processing in it. Even with my high-end video card, well high-end at the time I bought it 2 years ago, I can't run that one either at full stops.

In the beginning, I truly thought we were given crap. The earliest alpha versions, were pure crap, and then the beta versions weren't much better. Like all Trainz versions, it seems as though it took a couple of hot fixes and now a service pack to give us something to work with. I will be honest, I really though we were stuck with nothing and as much as I kept quiet and put on the smiley face while being positive in the forums, I continued to work with what we had, reporting errors, joining the Trainz Dev team, and tried to give us what we have at least today. If it wasn't for the TD team, you probably wouldn't have seen as quick a resolution to many of the issues that have plagued T:ANE right from the beginning. T:ANE right now is still in its infancy and it will only get better as time goes on as people update and replace older assets, create new ones to the stricter asset validation standards. I'm with Jack (LNRLover5). The new asset validation standards really do help with the performance and will do so in the future as they get stricter. Yes, there are going to be more faults found as time goes on. Sadly, though I feel that these standards should have been enforced from the beginning when this process started with TRS2006.

There is much more I can say, however, it's time for my medication and the ensuing nap.

John

KenGreen
November 24th, 2015, 03:01 PM
Is it possible to determine how many people use TANE compared to TS12. I have TANE D/L registered to me because of K/S but I have not yet installed it until it is as useable as TS12. I believe that at least TS12 should still be supported as an entry level product rather than support ending in Sept next year.

Ken

JCitron
November 24th, 2015, 03:22 PM
Is it possible to determine how many people use TANE compared to TS12. I have TANE D/L registered to me because of K/S but I have not yet installed it until it is as useable as TS12. I believe that at least TS12 should still be supported as an entry level product rather than support ending in Sept next year.

Ken

That would be difficult to tell, Ken. I suppose only N3V would know by which client connects to their servers, and I'm sure they won't give that tidbit of info out. :)

I agree that TS12 should remain as an alternative, and knowing how Trainz support has gone in the past the cut-off will probably extend a lot longer after September 2016. We have to remember that even though the product is not supported officially, there is still content available that will work with the software and the server it connects to doesn't stop working.

If you've had the opportunity to try the beta for SP1, you'll find that it's coming along and proving to be a worthy program to upgrade to.

John

alexl102
November 24th, 2015, 03:58 PM
I'm on the opposite end of the scale; I'm a recent student with all my uni debt shackling me, a first job that I love but that pays relatively nothing (i.e. once i've paid for fuel, a small amount of rent and my overdraft I've very little left to play with) and pre-ordered T:ANE only to discover that my macbook's graphics card can't handle it. Upgrading the graphics card isn't an option so my copy of T:ANE mac will probably never be used. Not everyone has the option to upgrade, especially if they pre-ordered before specs were released. Even if the graphics aren't quite as good as some hoped they are still excellent, the physics model and weather effects are better but more importantly, there is lovely new content being produced that I can't access - so actually I am missing out. It's a shame because those of us who have gone down the mac route for non-Trainz reasons can't simply just upgrade; Macs aren't like that.

LNERlover5
November 24th, 2015, 04:04 PM
Not everyone has the option to upgrade, especially if they pre-ordered before specs were released.

Honestly mate, it might have been worth waiting for the recommended specs to be published before placing an order.

I'm just getting started with the usual uni business. I'll continue to party a little bit before the doom and gloom sets in!

Jack

martinvk
November 24th, 2015, 04:08 PM
Without a MAC, I never paid much attention to the required specs on that platform but IIRC, the PC specs were published way back when we started down this track. Weren't they also published for the MAC?

johnwhelan
November 24th, 2015, 05:00 PM
Without a MAC, I never paid much attention to the required specs on that platform but IIRC, the PC specs were published way back when we started down this track. Weren't they also published for the MAC?

Shall we say they were a trifle optimistic about what TANE would require? A desktop you can upgrade to a certain extent, a lap top is more difficult.

Cheerio John

alexl102
November 24th, 2015, 05:33 PM
Furthermore, Macs are more difficult that a pc laptop anyway, and unless done in the approved way with the approved parts aand by the approved people (in other words, the most expensive way) will void your warranty and mean that an approved repairer can no longer touch your machine for any issue.

boleyd
November 24th, 2015, 06:33 PM
A good question - why does Trainz stuff provoke such an emotional response. All of the quickly amortized hardware and software is accepted as the normal. But T:ANE suffers the same depreciation as other software so why the uproar?

Maybe because people pore more of themselves into the program - they create. That makes everything more personal. Some customers create exceptional assets that took time and made them feel good. Others feel the same with rolling stock, routes, scenery and even sessions. There are a very large amount of people hours in this product line. It just is not sitting in a virtual cab and keeping to schedule without violating the speed restrictions. No, it is lots of hard work and the pride one sees when others also get pleasure from their efforts.

Personally I enjoy taking a good route and try to make it look better, at least to myself. Adding and subtracting to get it to look just a little more real. A crash of the program costs me time and effort. It is difficult to work on something only to have a tool constantly break or become dull. You might just become angry.

Just a thought as why a game, and its foibles, generates less angst than a program that promotes creative effort.

For my fellow pensioner - I would try to determine what aspect of the Trainz products gives me the most pleasure.Then decide which product is best suited. Assume you are a signaling fanatic. There TS2012 should serve you well. Route creation, again TS2012 but maybe with only assets that fit the requirements of T:ANE just in case that lottery ticket is magic. However, if you want to make assets that look terrific you probably have to use T:ANE with is manageable lighting. The point is that you probably have to balance your budget against your goals.

Saieditor
November 25th, 2015, 05:04 AM
For my fellow pensioner - I would try to determine what aspect of the Trainz products gives me the most pleasure.Then decide which product is best suited. Assume you are a signaling fanatic. There TS2012 should serve you well. Route creation, again TS2012 but maybe with only assets that fit the requirements of T:ANE just in case that lottery ticket is magic. However, if you want to make assets that look terrific you probably have to use T:ANE with is manageable lighting. The point is that you probably have to balance your budget against your goals.

This is an excellent point, and somewhat compassionate. I like this reply.

Kessica
November 25th, 2015, 08:05 AM
For my fellow pensioner - I would try to determine what aspect of the Trainz products gives me the most pleasure.Then decide which product is best suited. Assume you are a signaling fanatic. There TS2012 should serve you well. Route creation, again TS2012 but maybe with only assets that fit the requirements of T:ANE just in case that lottery ticket is magic. However, if you want to make assets that look terrific you probably have to use T:ANE with is manageable lighting. The point is that you probably have to balance your budget against your goals.

+1 from me :D

ray_whiley
November 27th, 2015, 11:10 AM
Excellent comment. No matter which version of Trainz you use, you can have FUN - and that's the reason for having a hobby. I still use TRS2004 on my XP desktop and fairly simple laptop. I prefer TS10 on the desktop but have many fewer downloads than I collected for 2004 - although my own 2004 creations seem to be OK in 10. As for TS12, I'm not keen. And I don't intend to upgrade my computer for TANE.

Finally, I thought one of the rules of these forums was not to be abusive? Calling someone a fool or an idiot for having an opinion is certainly not acceptable.

Ray

Enzo1
November 28th, 2015, 06:21 AM
Excellent comment. No matter which version of Trainz you use, you can have FUN - and that's the reason for having a hobby. I still use TRS2004 on my XP desktop and fairly simple laptop. I prefer TS10 on the desktop but have many fewer downloads than I collected for 2004 - although my own 2004 creations seem to be OK in 10. As for TS12, I'm not keen. And I don't intend to upgrade my computer for TANE.

Finally, I thought one of the rules of these forums was not to be abusive? Calling someone a fool or an idiot for having an opinion is certainly not acceptable.

Ray
I usually use a simple procedure that probably most people don't even think about.
It goes like this: "If you don't want to be called an idiot, then don't act like one."
Pretty simple.

boleyd
November 28th, 2015, 07:10 AM
The definition of an "idiot" is subjective.

LNERlover5
November 28th, 2015, 07:53 AM
"If you don't want to be called an idiot, then don't act like one."

Rather than provide a counter argument, you resorted to petty name calling. That's all this is in the end, debating opinions, although you seem to have taken it personally.

So here is mine. No other video game producer really provides extended support for very long. TS12 will have had a good 5 years come it's life cycle expiration date, which compared to many other software titles is very good. As far as having an alternative product to move on to, T:ANE currently isn't much, however we have another year to work on that, and the progress as of now looks good.

To the argument I have seen regarding the life cycle of Windows XP, XP was a significant OS utilised by governments, private businesses and military institutions that wouldn't function without it being reasonably secure, and they were willing to pay Microsoft large sums to keep it wheezing on, something we won't be doing as average people buying a train simulator once every few years. If someone can't afford T:ANE, how can said individual be expected to pay a share for the staff members to maintain TS12?

If you really want to continue using older software, at no point have I said you shouldn't, it's completely up to you and I won't make degrading comments for your opinion. What I will say is that N3V should be looking forward, not backwards. These older titles (TRS2004, TRS2006, TC3, etc) had their moment, however it makes more sense to be working and maintaining current products, not the outdated ones. This mentality is why I don't create content below TS12 SP1 HF4, I would rather make better content using more polygons and higher resolution textures for platforms that make use of parallelisation, and in T:ANE's case, better GPU workflow. Better software and content may attract newer people to the brand, something we would all benefit from.

Debate me, don't insult me.

Jack

KarenB
November 28th, 2015, 08:14 AM
I usually use a simple procedure that probably most people don't even think about.
It goes like this: "If you don't want to be called an idiot, then don't act like one."
Pretty simple.

Home Goal!

Luv Karen

KenGreen
November 28th, 2015, 09:15 AM
There is a difference between Trainz and other software, we paid upfront for TANE because we regard this as much of a community affair than a business. In return we expect N3V to consider the views of users who cannot at the moment afford to upgrade but who may in the future and consequently buy TANE. A number of businesses value customer loyalty and it is certainly necessary with a niche product like Trainz.

Ken

Enzo1
November 28th, 2015, 03:43 PM
The definition of an "idiot" is subjective.
I agree 100%, that's why I know a variety of situations that you could be called one, so that I can still use this:


"If you don't want to be called an idiot, then don't act like one."


Rather than provide a counter argument, you resorted to petty name calling. That's all this is in the end, debating opinions, although you seem to have taken it personally.
I did and you failed to read it correctly because of your inability to think. You're inability to think is why poor managment flourishes and you'll never see the TANE, that you, me, and everybody here wishes to see.

LNERlover5
November 28th, 2015, 04:04 PM
You're incredible, even now you're still resorting to insulting me rather than providing a solid counter-argument.

However, my belief that N3V should be focusing their energy and resources into T:ANE is the reason we won't see it be as good as it can be? That actually makes no sense.

Jack

Enzo1
November 28th, 2015, 06:06 PM
You're incredible, even now you're still resorting to insulting me rather than providing a solid counter-argument.

However, my belief that N3V should be focusing their energy and resources into T:ANE is the reason we won't see it be as good as it can be? That actually makes no sense.

Jack
Unfortunately, you're changing your tune now. You never said that. The argument you provided to both me and Nicky make 0 sense at all. You said you were fine with what was going on (Which I'm sure that you're reading the same white virtual paper with the same letters printed in black virtual ink) isn't exactly good. That is, unless me and you are not reading the same thing. I suggest you go check out the threads in the TANE section and report back to me what you find, and then you can tell me all about how my high-end computer is garbage, is loaded with cathair, has a virus, needs cleaned, needs this or that, and avoid the solid truth.

johnwhelan
November 28th, 2015, 06:30 PM
Unfortunately, you're changing your tune now. You never said that. The argument you provided to both me and Nicky make 0 sense at all. You said you were fine with what was going on (Which I'm sure that you're reading the same white virtual paper with the same letters printed in black virtual ink) isn't exactly good. That is, unless me and you are not reading the same thing. I suggest you go check out the threads in the TANE section and report back to me what you find, and then you can tell me all about how my high-end computer is garbage, is loaded with cathair, has a virus, needs cleaned, needs this or that, and avoid the solid truth.

If you really want to know if your computer is full of cat hair I suggest taking the side off perhaps?

I'm lost with what you are trying to say, there was a reference to management in there which I don't recall from earlier in the thread. A number of threads about TANE have now been taken down including the infamous post by windwalkr showing his GTX 980 system displaying 7 fps on a builtin route.

I do get the impression that what I read and retain is quite different to what you read and retain.

>"You never said that."

At the moment all is not wonderful with TANE and I think we are agreed on that but I'm not certain. However with the effort that the community has put into identifying faults etc I feel that after service pack one is released there is some hope for it. Whether we can get the content moved into TANE is another issue. There have been a number of posts from content creators about the effort required to clean things up and how it has become a chore rather than a hobby.

If your high end computer does not have a GX 980 or equivalent then as far as running TANE with the sliders at anything other than to the left then it probably can be considered garbage.

Perhaps if you were to think more clearly what you are trying to say before posting we might be more able to understand what you are trying to communicate?

Cheerio John

Vern
November 29th, 2015, 03:16 AM
If your high end computer does not have a GX 980 or equivalent then as far as running TANE with the sliders at anything other than to the left then it probably can be considered garbage.


With the caveat that the ~2006 appearance graphics of TANE running ~2004 content, shouldn't need anything approaching a GTX980 to run maxed out. Fallout 4 - yes. GTA V - yes. TANE, emphatically - no. :hehe::hehe:

rumour3
November 29th, 2015, 03:37 AM
With the caveat that the ~2006 appearance graphics of TANE running ~2004 content, shouldn't need anything approaching a GTX980 to run maxed out. Fallout 4 - yes. GTA V - yes. TANE, emphatically - no. :hehe::hehe:
Neither Fallout 4 nor GTA V have to contend with trying to render scenes full of amateur made, hideously high poly content with dozens of materials and no LOD at 10 km+ draw distances- such are the joys of backwards compatibility...

R3

LNERlover5
November 29th, 2015, 05:20 AM
Neither Fallout 4 nor GTA V have to contend with trying to render scenes full of amateur made, hideously high poly content with dozens of materials and no LOD at 10 km+ draw distances- such are the joys of backwards compatibility...



I don't think there is anyway to manage this without upsetting someone... An extreme example would be abandoning how Trainz presently functions for newer, more efficient methods. The offset being lack of any compatibility with current content. In the long term the solution may be better but it would never see light of day because everyone bar anyone who sees it as viable would complain endlessly.

The solution we do have is rigorous asset validation within T:ANE, however that doesn't stop people from uploading under a lower build number for the time being, that and there was a stream of complaints that crap content wasn't getting through. The majority of the complaints will have been regarding the fact that early on the validation didn't work correctly, but we're past that now.

Jack

Lataxe
November 29th, 2015, 08:12 AM
I don't think there is anyway to manage this without upsetting someone... An extreme example would be abandoning how Trainz presently functions for newer, more efficient methods. The offset being lack of any compatibility with current content. In the long term the solution may be better but it would never see light of day because everyone bar anyone who sees it as viable would complain endlessly.

The solution we do have is rigorous asset validation within T:ANE, however that doesn't stop people from uploading under a lower build number for the time being, that and there was a stream of complaints that crap content wasn't getting through. The majority of the complaints will have been regarding the fact that early on the validation didn't work correctly, but we're past that now.

Jack

T:ANE was advertised as a completely new software engine allowing many new facilities and "reality enhancers". Inevitably this required high end hardware. It also seems to require better-made content if the new software processes are not to run foul of high poly counts, poor or no LOD and an old-fashioned primitive look to the assets building a route & scenarios.

It's always seemed a mistake, to me, that T:ANE wasn't marketed unequivocally as "entirely new" with old content banned unless it reached a very high standard. The "high standard" should have included the ability to pass not just the necessary technical standards but also the subjective standard of "looks very realistic in T:ANE". This would need a human arbiter to make what inevitably would be something of a subjective judgement. So be it, if the result is not only T:ANE content that works without endless fixing or glitches but also looks as good as the new T:ANE environment can make it.

Otherwise we just have TS12 with a few extra shadows, some new assets that make the many older assets look even worse in comparison and not a lot more.

And the old content .....? It doesn't become redundant as it still performs just as well as it ever did in previous version of Trainz for which it was made. Personally I still get as much pleasure from TS12 as I did before T:ANE appeared. Also, a good portion of older content (once fixed by the creator, for everyone, in one go) is probably good enough for T:ANE.

When high quality content and routes mature for T:ANE I'll start to use it more. Well .... I will when it's various other built-in glitches are eradicated by SP1, 2, 3, ?

As to being a poor pensioner .... well, this is life. I can't afford a Rolls Royce either. There are alternatives often 95% as good and 10% of the price. For example, TS12 on an existing computer rather than T:ANE on a new computer costing at least 1200 or 600 in upgrades. :-)

Lataxe

boleyd
November 29th, 2015, 08:51 AM
Another Babble thread. If I were a moderator this is one I would close. If someone has a technical/performance issue it looks lost to me and perhaps a non-emotional new message is in order. Emotion driven Ranting on here just makes the "ranter" look odd. Repeating the same tired arguments over and over is indeed insanity.

martinvk
November 29th, 2015, 10:25 AM
...Repeating the same tired arguments over and over is indeed insanity.So true but if people keep bringing up the same old tired false assertions should they be ignored at the risk of becoming accepted by sheer repetition or should they be challenged? In an ideal world, software should succeed or fail on its own merits but in the real world, rumors and gainsaying can sink the best of the lot. No need to sugarcoat but no need to exaggerate its flaws either.

Mick_Berg
November 29th, 2015, 12:51 PM
I have used the same mid-level computer for TS12 and TANE. TANE performs better.
Hang on for SP1, it promises major improvements in both performance and usability.
My two cents'
Mick

Enzo1
November 29th, 2015, 02:07 PM
An extreme example would be abandoning how Trainz presently functions for newer, more efficient methods. The offset being lack of any compatibility with current content. In the long term the solution may be better but it would never see light of day because everyone bar anyone who sees it as viable would complain endlessly.

The solution we do have is rigorous asset validation within T:ANE, however that doesn't stop people from uploading under a lower build number for the time being, that and there was a stream of complaints that crap content wasn't getting through. The majority of the complaints will have been regarding the fact that early on the validation didn't work correctly, but we're past that now.

Jack
It's up to the person to decide what he wants to do. If he really wants to progress, then he can do so, but at the risk he loses all of his base and there would be a maybe less knowledgeable group of supporters to come in.
I'm actually quite fascinated by you. What exactly do you expect TANE to do/simulate/be? Do you expect to be something for the god of creators? Well, then that's not a game I want, because it's a ground where apparently content creators such as yourself and brag to all the lesser folks that they can create content for TANE, therefore making them better and more knowledgeable than anybody else.
Do you want it to be Railworks? Railworks is currently on sale on steam for $13, I suggest you try it out, and see what ancient stuff can really do when somebody knows how to use it.
Do you want it to be pure-wholehearted train simulator? There are several of those out there. Railworks, OpenRails, Run8......... I personally like trainz for other reasons

Personally, I want Trainz to be Trainz. It is a unique Train simulator, because it is so open compared to the others. We can fly planes for goodness sakes! If I wanted trainz to be railworks, then I'd buy railworks (Oh wait, I did, and play it all the time, because I like wholehearted-pure train simulators where I can be engineer for a day). In trainz, I can do almost anything I can think of... Huge mega yards? Yep, can do that. Routes that seeemingly never end? Can be done in Trainz. Model railways in a simulator? Let me know what other simulator has that to brag about, can only be done in Trainz. Creating days that one never got to see with their own eyes? Trainz can do that with all the "crap" content that doesn't belong in the god of the creators simulator. Did I mention that trainz has the largest selection of free and payware "crap" content that doesn't belong into the god of the creators simulator that tons of people are using right now? I'm sure right now we should just bow down to you because your the god of all creators and all other content is pure crap. Let me know how well your simulator does, and we'll keep on using Trainz 12 even after it's date.

LNERlover5
November 29th, 2015, 02:38 PM
What do I want? Well I want Trainz simply put, I wouldn't have been here and remained here for the last 7 years if the product didn't offer what I wanted in terms of playability. Compared to anything else presently available, nothing seems to provide the simplicity and open nature that Trainz provides. What I want Trainz to move onto is improved visuals and performance, and these will come from a better foundation (T:ANE in this case) and better content.

What do I define as better content? Content that is cleverly made to be visually stunning whilst making use of techniques that provide performance benefits, the fact is there is a lot of content available or perhaps still being made that doesn't really fit this criteria for whatever reason. Using Sketchup as your program of choice is a good one, countless materials and polygons and a lack of LOD to make something that appears flat and dull. Not quite what we need really since having these assets present in a route are a hindrance to performance, especially now that will be rendered at significantly greater draw distances, perhaps this will be one of the reasons T:ANE can potentially run poorly.

Have I at any point claimed to be the best content creator going? Of course not, far from it when you have the likes of Zec, Rumour3, amongst many, many others also producing high quality content that takes into consideration the performance impact of said content. I'll even admit most of my earlier stuff is crap, because quite frankly it was, the Thompson L1 for example, flat, unweathered and doesn't make any real considerations for performance. You want to encourage content creators who make this effort, without them Trainz would be running worse for everyone and not look particularly attractive for it.

I still don't quite understand why you're making personal remarks just because I think Trainz could be better with a focus on T:ANE and better content. Why are you even bringing up TS12 at this point? It's a stable program that works, so why be offended that N3V are looking at their next product that came several years later?!? What do you want from me? At no point have I resorted to retaliation, I have made no personal attacks towards you either. This is just a forum for people to express their opinions on the internet, if you don't like it, perhaps you need to leave it be...

Enzo1
November 29th, 2015, 02:53 PM
I think you need to re-read your post, and then think about it much deeper.

amigacooke
November 29th, 2015, 03:08 PM
I still don't quite understand why you're making personal remarks just because I think Trainz could be better with a focus on T:ANE and better content.

Enzo1 playing up? Well fancy that.

Your content is pretty good Jack, but I believe you have more important RL passtimes at the moment :D

Enzo1
November 29th, 2015, 04:38 PM
Enzo1 playing up? Well fancy that.

Your content is pretty good Jack, but I believe you have more important RL passtimes at the moment :D
He probably does. I always play up and always will. People like Jack, are not thinking deep enough to see the roots of the issues, and therefore will not see the TANE that him, me, and everybody else wants to see.
I really don't understand people and how they believe they cannot change anything. You can change just about anything you want if you actually think about and then do it.

ricketts
November 29th, 2015, 05:03 PM
Well being a senior myself have just upgraded from ts2009 that worked great for me but with ts12 have had nothing but problems when it came to downloading locos have not been able to download any thing all I get is missing dependicies or layouts missing all kinds of stuff yet all worked great on ts2009 can get no help from any in here and like you can't afford a new computer cheers Paul

dleblanc
November 30th, 2015, 07:12 AM
I too am a retired 2.4 relic who still enjoys it. Am I missing something in newer versions? Yes. Do I care? Not really. If I could afford a better PC, perhaps I would.

3D simulators are intended to create a virtual reality, but at the end of the day it's just pixels. Any sim requires a level of immersion to gather the experience. To me, many features in new versions are not necessary for my purposes, but I understand some believe them to be critical and prefer to roll with technology as it becomes available. Any developer ought to consider all users, but must be progressive as a priority.

My neighbor owns a model railroad. He spent thousands of dollars and hours creating an oval track that bores me to tears after five minutes of viewing. The cost of a software bundle and a PC is infinitely cheaper. I can fire up Trainz and go anywhere or build what I want, with far greater attention to detail than plastic cars with horrible sounds. I'm a former railroader and recreate much of my work experience in reskins, layouts, assets, attachments, scripts and products. I have hundreds of 95125 KUID's and manage them with TrainzObjectz, PEV Tools and CONText and it all works very well for me. I even extracted the entire list of assets from the .ja cabinets with JAX. (Which incidentally, I translated into an English version too) And no, I don't redist anything that cannot be uploaded to the DLS.

I enjoy following the works of many of the talented content creators and have been successful downgrading higher assets to work on 2.4. If they don't work, oh well. It was fun trying. In fact, I undoubtedly spend more time in PaintShop tweaking skins, dabbling in scripts or building in Surveyor than I do actually running trains itself.

Trainz is what you make it. For me, that would be nostalgia and content creation.

Nobody beats up on content creators for creating only higher versions, so it's not fair to expect a developer to accommodate every need, but my only issue (albeit minor) is deprecating older versions that still run. It's fine to no longer support older versions, but to cast aside or make unavailable the work of creators who've given their time and content freely is somewhat disrespectful of otherwise faithful followers. Most old content is still available, so as far as Trainz goes, it's a non-issue.

I still run MS Flight Simulator 2004. Though no longer supported, it's a mainstay to many flight sim enthusiasts for it's reliability, plugin abilities and downloadable content.