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andi06
September 29th, 2015, 03:30 PM
Forum Rules



1. Membership of this group shall be limited to 40 persons or to such other number as may be agreed between the group and N3V.




2. The group shall appoint a member to administer the processes set out in this document.




3. Admission of a new member will require a nomination by way of a forum post by any existing member. The nomination should include the username of the proposed member and a brief statement of their area of interest.




4. If, within 72 hours of the first post, the proposal is seconded by at least two additional members posting in favour and there is no post or private forum message objecting to admission, the new member will be admitted subject to the limit on group membership.




5. If there are any objections to admission the process shall be extended by a further 72 hours and the matter decided by a simple majority of votes in favour and against. Votes should be cast by way of a private forum message addressed to the administrator.




6. If the admission of a new member would result in membership exceeding the agreed maximum, voluntary retirement of existing members will be invited or, if necessary, members will be invited to nominate existing members for retirement.




7. Any other matter within the remit of the group, including changes to these rules, may be decided by a similar process.




8. Motions affecting the position of administrator or, at the discretion of the administrator and N3V, any other matters deemed unsuitable for this process will be administered or decided by N3V.




9. In the event of a tied poll, N3V will be asked to decide the matter by way of a casting vote.




10. None of the above rules shall take precedence over the general rules of the forum.


Current forum members are invited to vote by posting in this thread stating:




Yes or no to adoption of the above forum rules.
Yes or no to my appointment as administrator.


Voting is to close after the expiry of 72 hours from the date and time of this post.

clam1952
September 29th, 2015, 03:52 PM
1. Yes
2. Yes

itareus
September 29th, 2015, 05:15 PM
1. Yes
2. Yes

BuilderBob
September 29th, 2015, 06:00 PM
Forum Rules


A democracy is not appropriate to the purpose of the forum.

2 and 8 are inconsistent.

5 is completely unacceptable. At a minimum, a quorum is required, and the counting must be validated.

6 is incomplete. What happens after someone is nominated?

7 is invalid. Authority cannot be claimed like this.

The whole thing is a waste of effort. A benign dictatorship is the only reasonable pattern.

Dinorius_Redundicus
September 29th, 2015, 06:08 PM
Yes
Yes


10 characters

JCitron
September 29th, 2015, 07:00 PM
1. Yes

and

2. Yes.

narrowgauge
September 29th, 2015, 07:19 PM
1: No

2: Yes

Peter

martinvk
September 29th, 2015, 07:35 PM
What happened to secret ballots? Since it is an all or nothing vote
1 - No
2 - Yes

Too bad, some parts were fine but others not so the whole of part one got a no.

pguy
September 29th, 2015, 09:41 PM
1 - Yes
2 - Yes

Pierre

Mick_Berg
September 29th, 2015, 11:37 PM
Forum Rules...snip.......


Jeez Andi, this is a video game, not the United Nations! :)
Mick

n8phu
September 30th, 2015, 01:23 AM
1. Yes
2. Yes

pcas1986
September 30th, 2015, 02:40 AM
1. Yes
2. Yes

I already nominated Andi as the administrator and I don't recall anyone else asking for the job. In my experience this will be a simple outcome. Let's just move on.

geophil
September 30th, 2015, 04:12 AM
1. Abstain
2. Yes

My personal opinion is we are likely to overdo it here. The overall objective to keep the group small is very reasonable and has my full support. And that needs some administration. But the actual purpose of this group is a rather mundane technical one and administration and overhead should be in proportion. Indeed, this is not the "United Nations" and "benign dictatorship" may be all that's needed. Just my 2€ct.

VinnyBarb
September 30th, 2015, 04:27 AM
1) No
2) Yes, andy06 for administrator

Crikey .... this is only a Content Creator forum, no need to select such rules for members.

VinnyBarb.

whitepass
September 30th, 2015, 08:32 AM
1. Yes
2. Yes

Pencil42
October 1st, 2015, 12:20 PM
1: Yes
2: Yes

oknotsen
October 1st, 2015, 01:20 PM
1: No; see post of BuilderBob for what is closest to my opinion.
As a result of voting "no" to point 1 voting for point 2 is useless.

andi06
October 3rd, 2015, 11:59 AM
Poll Results:

1. (Adoption of Rules) Votes in favour: 9 Votes against: 3 Abstentions: 1

2. (Appointment of Administrator) Votes in favour: 13 Votes against: 0

Spoilt papers: 2 (Posts #4 and #10)

Turnout: 15 of 28 = 53.5%

Oknotsen's name is not included in the current list of members, if this is not an error in the list we have a little bit of electoral fraud going on here.

JCitron
October 3rd, 2015, 12:29 PM
Well congratulations on the results. :)

Did you check the chaff to ensure the votes are correct? :)

martinvk
October 3rd, 2015, 01:05 PM
If the forum lets him in to vote, that is not fraud, its incompetence, unless he became a last minute member after the list published by Windwalkr

oknotsen
October 3rd, 2015, 01:59 PM
Oknotsen's name is not included in the current list of members, if this is not an error in the list we have a little bit of electoral fraud going on here.Since you did not count post 4 and 10 as "no" votes (though they do clearly disagree with you), I think we can say the same about your counting.

Anyway, as I just found the "list of members", I now can also explain why I can vote (or technically "post"):
Moderators and N3V staff members also have forum access, of course, but aren't technically trainzdev members.Though I disagree with the wording, as I clearly am technically a member, but apparently officially not.
And I am clearly not welcome here by the possibly-future-to-be-administrator, so I vote "no" on question 2, but I am apparently officially not allowed to do so, or at least currently do not have my vote(s ) count.

I officially hope this technically clears things up.

Regards,
O
Officially technically not posting here.
Technically posting here.
Technical (or at least officially).
Just pretend (or keep pretending/acting like) I am not here till I am officially here, though not surprised if I technically disappear ;).

pcas1986
October 3rd, 2015, 02:08 PM
:hehe: All very funny. Anyway, regardless of whether Oknotsen can, or cannot, vote, I hereby nominate him to be a full voting member.
As I keep saying, I think we should move on and do some serious stuff.
Cheers

martinvk
October 3rd, 2015, 02:11 PM
Beat me to it but I second that motion.

PerRock
October 3rd, 2015, 02:25 PM
Well blast, I should have voted... No for both.

I don't really see the need to make things more complicated for us mods; which this whole splinter group rules thing would do. And in the end, all of these 'rules' would be superseded by anything N3V staff want.

peter

andi06
October 3rd, 2015, 03:14 PM
Since you did not count post 4 and 10 as "no" votes (though they do clearly disagree with you), I think we can say the same about your counting.
Neither of these posts make the posters voting intention clear. There is a parallel discussion thread and these comments belong in there.


Anyway, as I just found the "list of members", I now can also explain why I can vote (or technically "post"):Though I disagree with the wording, as I clearly am technically a member, but apparently officially not.
On the contrary the post that you refer to makes it clear that you are not a member. There is nothing personal in this, but if you are counting votes in an election, an essential pre-requisite is to know who is eligible to vote and who is not. If Chris advises me that I've interpreted the list incorrectly I will cheerfully amend the result if the list is adjusted to suit.


Well blast, I should have voted... No for both.
Academic really since you aren't a member either :). Seriously I'm not sure why you think this process might interfere with moderation. I can't recall any post in this forum where any form of moderation has been necessary and the process has been put forward with the knowledge and support of N3V.

martinvk
October 3rd, 2015, 03:35 PM
At this point it seems to me that the whole rules and admin process / vote is going south real fast. Before it really goes off into the deep end I propose we get back to what this forum was set out to do:

In terms of scope, we're aiming to discuss anything which affects our content creation community- from the content management UI, new tools, warnings and errors, material configuration, compatibility bugs, DLS cleanup, and moving forward with more advanced T:ANE techniques.

ianwoodmore
October 3rd, 2015, 04:44 PM
As Martinvk says. Time is passing and Xmas is nearly here. We need to move on.

If you want a simpler procedure (KISS principle) for running this forum in the manner envisaged by Chris, then consider this:

Forum Sponsor

1. This is an N3V forum for the purposes of TANE development. N3V nominates the N3V member who acts as sponsor providing advice and acting as go-between with N3V team. Additional N3V staff can be co-opted to assist.

Membership Committee

2. Administrator and two other currently serving members.

3. Membership of committee determined by current members.

Forum Membership

4. Current membership determined by Sponsor and serve a minmum term of 6 months.
5. At end of term membership is reviewed and either terminated or extended.
6. A third of current membership is reviewed each 6 months to avoid loss of corporate knowledge.

Elegibility

7. Membership numbers should be flexible within the range of 30-40 members depending on tasks in hand.
8. Any Trainz/TANE Community User. Bearing in mind this is a development forum, preference is for personnel who are domain experts in any subject or skill that will contribute to the advancement of TANE. A secondary but important task is representing the views and aspirations of the community. If you are good at liaising with people then you can perform an important service.
9. Membership can revoked at any time for inappropriate behaviour. Normal COC rules prevail.
10. A serving member may request voluntary release.

Nomination of Administrator

I vote for Andi06.

Nomination of additional Committee Members

I do not wish to serve on Membership Committee.

Nomination of New Forum Member

I recommend PEV.

Peter has a deep understanding of mesh formats and has designed and released a number of Third Party tools such as Images2TGA and PM2IM to assist content creators and repairers. He is also a creator and well respected by the Community at large.
With the demise of CCP in TANE it is essential that these tools be harmonised with TANE formats and validation to assist in the transition from Trainz to TANE and with backwards compatability with Legacy Trainz builds.
This requires close liaison with both N3V and the TANE Community.

------------------------------

Feel free to modify above.

In the meantime I have TANE development testing to advance, which I can't do because of shortfalls in build 78602.

Ian

itareus
October 3rd, 2015, 04:54 PM
...If you want a simpler procedure (KISS principle) consider this...

For a simpler procedure, why not just soldier on as before and deal with issues if and when they arise.

This is a forum, not the UN :p :) !

Chris

VinnyBarb
October 3rd, 2015, 06:46 PM
For a simpler procedure, why not just soldier on as before and deal with issues if and when they arise.

This is a forum, not the UN :p :) !

Chris
Exactly. Enough said.

Instead of pickering about this and that, the soonest of getting on with the job of what this forum is about is IMHO more important. Exchanging and fixing of ideas and issues and getting on with Content Creating, the sooner the current issues are fixed in TANE, the better for all of us CCs. Isn't this what we all are striving for?

As said before by me, I am still waiting to get some animation, some LOD, some autonumbering issues etc. to work correctly in TANE. Which work beautiful in TS12 and not knowing if this will be the case in the immediate future with TANE will keep me from progressing and/or uploading.

As just one example concerning me, the SAR Bluebird RDCs in my signature picture below are still waiting since the expected release of TANE at Christmas 2014 for an upload to a TANE V4.2 Kuid, as they do not work as expected with its animated doors, autonumbering etc. which all work correctly in TS12. As these RDCs among other project on hold are meant to be TANE specific only.

VinnyBarb

RPearson
October 3rd, 2015, 10:52 PM
I've been away on personal business so didn't vote before the cutoff date/time. However my vote for what what it's worth now is:
1) no
2) yes

Bob Pearson

PerRock
October 3rd, 2015, 11:44 PM
Seriously I'm not sure why you think this process might interfere with moderation. I can't recall any post in this forum where any form of moderation has been necessary and the process has been put forward with the knowledge and support of N3V.

Because when said rules are broken, in then end it will come to us to have to do something about them. Even if you say, "if someone break these rules PM andi06" you will get people who will just hit the report button which.

peter

WindWalkr
October 4th, 2015, 01:04 AM
And in the end, all of these 'rules' would be superseded by anything N3V staff want.

Yes and no. We can obviously overrule this at any time, but any such action that we take without good reason will be held up to scrutiny by the wider community. In practice that means that things would have to get pretty bad in here for us to feel the need to overrule your internal politics.

CoC still applies; moderation still applies. Nothing in the rules that you've just voted on proposed to change any of that, and even if you voted to change it, you'd just be ignored by the staff and mods both. Setting a rule only makes sense if you can enforce it, in the same sense that setting a rule to stop the sun coming up isn't going to achieve anything.

The list of members that I posted should be accurate and is appropriate for judging whether voters are eligible. As previously noted, mods have access to this forum just like they do other forums- this isn't a symbol of membership in itself, just a fact of them being a mod. Similarly, N3V staff members do not count as group members despite their ability to post in here. If you can post here and are not on the membership role, but are also not a mod, then let me know and I'll take it up with our forum admin to determine what's going on.

Nothing done here really affects the mods in any way. Mods will uphold the CoC and prevent trouble-making and spamming, as usual. Their job isn't changed by rules you make to govern yourselves, so nothing is going to get magically harder for them.

chris

WindWalkr
October 4th, 2015, 01:05 AM
Because when said rules are broken, in then end it will come to us to have to do something about them.

Nope. Moderators do not enforce user-made rules.

chris

WindWalkr
October 4th, 2015, 01:20 AM
1. (Adoption of Rules) Votes in favour: 9 Votes against: 3 Abstentions: 1

2. (Appointment of Administrator) Votes in favour: 13 Votes against: 0


It seems pretty clear that the majority of voters are in favour, and that the vast majority are willing for Andi06 to administrate even if they aren't completely happy with the rules. Since Andi06 made the rules, that assumedly means that you're at least happy to follow his decisions for now even if you're not 100% happy with how he reaches them.

I think it's time to formalise this. With that in mind:

* Andi06 is now the administrative point of contact. He will contact me directly regarding adding or removing members from this forum, or creating stickies as necessary. It is expected that he will use this responsibly and will follow the rules that he has set for himself.

* If a group member (or recent ex-member, when we get to that stage) has a problem with the administrator, they should feel free to contact me or another N3V staff member privately. If we feel that a breach of responsibilities has occurred or if things have otherwise gone off the rails, we will take a private vote from the community and act accordingly. Hopefully this won't ever arise.

* If you feel that the administrator's leadership is no longer appropriate for whatever reason other than a direct breach of responsibilities, you are free to bring the matter up publicly in this forum. If it appears that you have some support, N3V will take a public vote for a replacement administrator. We expect that the administrator should be tolerant to such proceedings, and not attempt to act against the losing parties. Disagreements happen.

* N3V will not take votes on specific rule changes- that will go through your administrator. If you have a problem with the administrator, please see the above points.

* Andi06's proposed rules are now in effect. If you want something changed, call for a vote, explain what you think should be changed and what it should be changed to, etc.


chris

ATSF854
October 4th, 2015, 04:37 AM
This is a trainz forum, not the whitehouse. Even if I reported something on this forum, it would probably go ignored, or i'd be told something that I already know. All of this talk is a waste of time.

BuilderBob
October 4th, 2015, 05:48 AM
It seems pretty clear that the majority of voters are in favour, and that the vast majority are willing for Andi06 to administrate even if they aren't completely happy with the rules.

Please remove me from the forum group.

andi06
October 4th, 2015, 11:08 AM
Thanks to Chris and to all those who voted.

There are a couple of items arising out of these posts which need to be addressed.


...regardless of whether Oknotsen can, or cannot, vote, I hereby nominate him to be a full voting member.


Beat me to it but I second that motion.
This nomination needs a supporting statement in order to comply with rule 3 (http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?123239-Trainzdev-Forum-Rules-Vote&p=1445350#post1445350), can you please supply this.



Nomination of New Forum Member
I recommend PEV.
Peter has a deep understanding of mesh formats and has designed and released a number of Third Party tools such as Images2TGA and PM2IM to assist content creators and repairers. He is also a creator and well respected by the Community at large.
With the demise of CCP in TANE it is essential that these tools be harmonised with TANE formats and validation to assist in the transition from Trainz to TANE and with backwards compatability with Legacy Trainz builds.
This requires close liaison with both N3V and the TANE Community.
This is a valid motion.

In support I might add that information obtained via the group and provided to PEV has already borne fruit in that our own builds of both Images2TGA and AssetX are now capable of reading the new TANE *.texture formats. This is being tested and will be made available in due course.



Members who wish to second a nomination should do so by posting in this thread.
Members who wish to object can also do so by posting here or, if you prefer, by sending me a PM. PMs received will be recorded and advised to the group but the identity of the objector will not be revealed under any circumstances.

JCitron
October 4th, 2015, 11:21 AM
I also recommend oknotsen for membership here as a new member.

He has technical knowledge as well as experience using the multiplayer system which we don't have as well as content creation and extensive route building experience. This is a unique mix of skills unlike many of us who have specialized in a single area.

John

Mick_Berg
October 4th, 2015, 11:21 AM
For a simpler procedure, why not just soldier on as before and deal with issues if and when they arise.

This is a forum, not the UN :p :) !

Chris
Hey, don't pinch my quotes without a formal citation.............:hehe:
If you wish to limit the membership of this forum I'm very willing to resign, I know I'm not at the knowledge level of most of the other members.
Mick

martinvk
October 4th, 2015, 11:41 AM
I also recommend oknotsen for membership here as a new member.

He has technical knowledge as well as experience using the multiplayer system which we don't have as well as content creation and extensive route building experience. This is a unique mix of skills unlike many of us who have specialized in a single area.

JohnIf you insist on being pedantic, second it, again.

andi06
October 4th, 2015, 11:46 AM
I also recommend oknotsen for membership here as a new member.

He has technical knowledge as well as experience using the multiplayer system which we don't have as well as content creation and extensive route building experience. This is a unique mix of skills unlike many of us who have specialized in a single area.
John

Thanks John, I think we can take that as proposed, and twice seconded (thirded??)

pcas1986
October 4th, 2015, 03:10 PM
Thanks John, I think we can take that as proposed, and twice seconded (thirded??)
Since my nomination was "out of order", I'll second Oknotsen's nomination.

I'm not sure if PEV has been nominated but I'd like to nominate him.

Peter has written a number of tools to facilitate content creation, including those embedded within AssetX. He also took the the trouble to convert the Contest Creators Guide into the N3V WiKi and has provided some very useful advice to many in the CC community, including myself.

JCitron
October 4th, 2015, 03:51 PM
Thank you Andy. :)

and Paul. :)

John

I'll second that on PEV as well. His tools are totally invaluable to us.

itareus
October 4th, 2015, 05:46 PM
...Hey, don't pinch my quotes without a formal citation.............:hehe:...

That was a case of 'great minds think alike' Mick, I never read previous posts before posting myself :wave: !

Chris M

andi06
October 5th, 2015, 03:55 AM
I never read previous posts before posting myself :wave: !


That seems to be quite common around here. :)

Both of these nominations (oknotsen and PEV) have now been properly proposed and seconded. The time allowed for objections is 72 hours from the proposal.

Pencil42
October 5th, 2015, 08:57 AM
Perhaps put these two nominations in their own threads, so they're not buried in a thread about arcane group rules? ;-)

Curtis

andi06
October 5th, 2015, 09:36 AM
Yes, I'll do that shortly.

andi06
October 7th, 2015, 03:10 PM
I've received no objections to either of the proposed nominations so both oknotsen and PEV are appointed to the group (assuming that they both actually want to join of course :)), welcome aboard.