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WindWalkr
August 15th, 2015, 04:08 AM
All,

Well, it's been a little while since this forum was started. I think it's worth having a chat about how well the trainzdev idea is working out, and whether anyone has ideas on how to improve it.

On the upside, we've identified and fixed a number of bugs, improved and discussed a few of the newer features, and raised a few issues warranting further investigation.

On the downside, I'm not really sure whether this format is working for everyone here (I know it's certainly working for some of you!) and I'm not sure how much communication there is between forum members here and the rest of the community. Obviously this plan only works out if communication is flowing, not if we're sitting here having a "private" chat, even if that chat is visible to other trainz community members :)

I'd like to hear your thoughts on both sides of this. What's working for you personally. What's not working for you personally. What you think is working or not working for the broader trainz community. How you think this process could be improved.

As discussed when the forum was opened, I'd like membership here to be somewhat self-governing. People who don't feel that they are contributing are encouraged to step down. People who aren't part of the group but perhaps should be should be nominated. I want the group to remain small so that you can speak and have some certainty that you'll be heard, but that doesn't mean that membership should be static. Again, if a particular aspect of the group isn't functioning, we should discuss that here.

thanks,

chris

pcas1986
August 16th, 2015, 02:05 AM
The forum works for me and I believe we have made progress in some areas including LOD in its various forms and procedural track. But I still feel more can be done in the WiKi space. Perhaps that is outside the scope of this forum but there is information in these threads that should find it's way onto the WiKi.

The flow of communication has been mostly one way for me. Yes, I've been able to tell folk in other threads that some issues have been fixed, but I'm not getting any questions except the obvious "when will I see a patch?" that I cannot answer.

There are aspects of Trainz/TANE we haven't touched on. I recall Tony saying an area to explore post TANE release was industries. Is that still on or did I misread it?

martinvk
August 16th, 2015, 09:23 AM
Mostly works for me too. Good, solid discussions on a specific topics. What could be added is a short list (one liners) of: topic (issue description) and status (thinking about it, working on a solution, long term project, not technically possible with the current state of the art, etc.) This should be a sticky thread and updated on a regular basis (weekly?) With visibility by the general forum population, this would go a long way to allaying fears of issues being ignored.

whitepass
August 16th, 2015, 10:07 AM
That dose sound good to me.

clam1952
August 16th, 2015, 11:06 AM
I think the general population would prefer some sort of regular update in easily understandable terms as some of the technical stuff is basically incomprehensible to them.
To be honest I think the majority of forum members want to know if specific bugs are going to be fixed and when they are likely to get a patch. An it's being worked on from one of us seems to be not good enough.
The forum itself seems to be working well although I agree there are areas that need probably looking at that haven't been touched yet, issues with default environmental settings, some odd alpha masking effects or lack of for example on otherwise error free assets.

JCitron
August 16th, 2015, 12:32 PM
I think the general population would prefer some sort of regular update in easily understandable terms as some of the technical stuff is basically incomprehensible to them.
To be honest I think the majority of forum members want to know if specific bugs are going to be fixed and when they are likely to get a patch. An it's being worked on from one of us seems to be not good enough.
The forum itself seems to be working well although I agree there are areas that need probably looking at that haven't been touched yet, issues with default environmental settings, some odd alpha masking effects or lack of for example on otherwise error free assets.

I will go along with this. Well said and no need repeating.

I've tried my best to answer questions on the main KS forum, but sometimes this is met with frustration from the user community as they expect things to happen a lot faster. Perhaps some direct communication more frequently from N3V staff may help this matter.

I wish I could contribute more, but I am neither a programmer or content creator; just a regular surveyor and user.

John

itareus
August 16th, 2015, 04:05 PM
Malc (Clam1952) has hit the nail on the head. Most users won't follow detailed discussions on a forum and just want to know how updates affect them, the question is how is this communicated. One liners that say something like "bug in module xxxxx fixed" are meaningless as are "tag xxxxx now works correctly" and the like. For the average punter a regular update that has brief but meaningful descriptions of progress e.g "The problem where assets which had one way traffic (tag xxxxx - x) and meaning one way traffic did not work has now been fixed and will be in the next release". Unless a volunteer from the community willing to produce a (fortnightly ?) digest is forthcoming then the ball is back in your court on this one Chris B.

As for the level of contributions, not everybody has anything useful to contribute on every topic but they may be watching and learning and just now and then pop up with a suggestion or answer, so long as they are not commenting on threads for the sake of it why should they step down ? Certainly new members with the right skills should be 'recruited' but how and by whom is another question.

Chris M

VinnyBarb
August 16th, 2015, 05:35 PM
Clam1952 said exactly what I was thinking. We need more flow of information of a particular issue not showing in TS12 but is occurring in TANE is getting addressed. Or MORE specific, WHEN this will be addressed. Once we know, at least we CCs know when this will be done but just ignoring such issues by just stating, there are more important issues in TANE to be fixed first without mentioning anything of the issue(s) that concern me personally.

For me, there are at least 2 major issues, the NONE performance of the "constant nightmode" tag on my created assets for TS12, reported several times since the earlier betas of TANE have started. The still not working autonumbering on some number boards on my for TS12 created locomotives, which work beautiful in TS12 but as said, not in TANE. AFAIK, no information of fixing these issues is anywhere available and please do not ask me again, which of my TS12 created assets are affected. I reported these issues several times in the immediate past with some relevant Kuid numbers to be checked.

No good repeating and asking here over and over the same questions if there is no sensible answers to these forth coming.

VinnyBarb

WindWalkr
August 16th, 2015, 08:00 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys, please keep it coming. I would like to see the main focus of communication between this group and the rest of the forum being in your hands; that's part of the reason for this group existing. If you feel that there is not enough recognition for your words on the other forums then perhaps we could organise some kind of badges? Let me know if you think this needs to be explored further.

As far as a trainzdev-internal summary of the status of the various topics- in my mind that's exactly what this forum is. It's a list of topics, with feedback on what we've done or are planning to do on each. If I believe a topic is closed then (as discussed earlier) I'll be marking and closing the thread in question.

As far as external summaries of these topics- this is the kind of thing that I'd like you as a group to coordinate. Whether that's by somebody from this group being tapped as a translator/reporter or whether some other mechanism. Perhaps even a weekly thread here started by an "editor" who collects input from everyone here and then formulates a single summary post for the main forum. I don't want this to turn into a simple list of what I've said during the week- instead we should consider this a community effort because everybody here is working on improving things, it's not just the efforts of N3V that are helping us progress.

Regarding specific game issues, this isn't really the thread for it, but as always, feel free to create threads regarding any issues which you want discussed (or bump an existing thread if one already exists and you don't think it's getting the attention it deserves.) Also, don't expect all answers to come from N3V. I'll certainly jump in with my 2c where I feel that I've got a meaningful contribution, and I will nudge other dev team members when something strays into their area of expertise, but that doesn't mean that you can't solve things as a group, or at least progress them to a point where it's obvious what N3V's actions need to be.

Regarding group membership, it's up to the individual and to the group to ensure that everybody is contributing. As with any group, there will eventually come a point where it's time to either contribute or step down. I'm not suggesting a specific timeframe or metric to determine this, that's up to you guys. But I don't want to see people taking up a spot here and contributing nothing in return - it's not to the community's benefit, and it's not even to the person's own benefit since if they're not posting, they're not getting anything back. You can just as easily watch from the sidelines if you're outside this community as you can if you're inside, so holding on to a spot because "someday i might want to ask a question" is a bit unfair on everybody else. Don't take this personally, it's not aimed at any particular person and I haven't been keeping track of such things- I just want this consideration to remain in the group's awareness so that we are functioning efficiently. I want this group to be self-maintaining and this means that I'll keep bringing up this kind of question until I feel that you guys have picked up that side of it.

chris

andi06
August 17th, 2015, 03:11 AM
I don't really buy the need for a digest or summary thread. Almost by definition what we are doing here is both technical and wide-ranging. For anyone who is interested in the game at this level, skimming the threads in TrainzDev will reveal what is being discussed and broadly what is happening even if the details are unclear to them.

What the community at large really wants to know is when there will be an update and will it fix all of the problems. We can't answer that (you probably can't answer it either) but it is a commercial and PR issue that your own people need to handle.

On the more detailed side its open to members to post or to pm a TrainzDev member and this has happened once or twice recently. It might be useful to add a list of members of this group to one of the sticky posts, I'm not sure that even the members actually know who we all are.

I'm happy to get involved elsewhere on the forums where there are technical queries in my own areas of interest (I've always done this anyway) but to be honest the recent incidence of this type of post is as low as I can ever remember.

JCitron
August 17th, 2015, 10:53 AM
I don't really buy the need for a digest or summary thread. Almost by definition what we are doing here is both technical and wide-ranging. For anyone who is interested in the game at this level, skimming the threads in TrainzDev will reveal what is being discussed and broadly what is happening even if the details are unclear to them.

What the community at large really wants to know is when there will be an update and will it fix all of the problems. We can't answer that (you probably can't answer it either) but it is a commercial and PR issue that your own people need to handle.

On the more detailed side its open to members to post or to pm a TrainzDev member and this has happened once or twice recently. It might be useful to add a list of members of this group to one of the sticky posts, I'm not sure that even the members actually know who we all are.

I'm happy to get involved elsewhere on the forums where there are technical queries in my own areas of interest (I've always done this anyway) but to be honest the recent incidence of this type of post is as low as I can ever remember.

Andi,

Sorry, I disagree here. I was thinking the same as you because we do have the stuff here if people wish to read it, but that's the problem. Many people want stuff that's digestible in a single statement rather than have to dig. The other issue too is sometimes this stuff really is confusing for us non-modelers and programmer types. If we can get that information churned down into a bit more butter that's digestible by those that understand what's being said, I think it will help. I do agree though, we need something to come from the management too and not just from us. Many of the users see us as talking puppets and "fanbois" as we've been no-so-affectionately called by those who are to be left unnamed.

So I was thinking... I'll start a thread called "Breaking News from Trainz Dev, or something like that anyway. The thread will contain a summary of what we've been addressing here with the outcomes, and may a quick point list of what's on the docket. There will be a caveat in there, perhaps a bit of the initial doc we received with the statement regarding usability and release. The thread will be open to all to ask questions, however, not for troubleshooting. Perhaps a second thread should be an Ask the Trainz Devs type where we can field questions to bring back in to here for addressing. We can all contribute the stuff we know is going on, and then maybe Tony or Chris can pipe in as needed if there is something that needs a bit more clarification. Maybe they need us to warm up the water first before they stick their toes in. ;)

If the thread is successful, we can have the topic made into a sticky so it doesn't disappear amongst the other topics, and maybe the second thread could be started.

John

JCitron
August 17th, 2015, 02:37 PM
Update:

I have made the opening post in the Kick Starter/T:ANE forum.

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?122300-News-from-the-Trainz-Dev-Forums

Please read, contribute, and let's keep this an ongoing thing.

Maybe this can even become a sticky at some point.

John

WindWalkr
August 17th, 2015, 08:09 PM
Stickied.

chris

-Basti-
August 18th, 2015, 03:04 AM
So it's allowed to talk to others about contents of this forums? I tought i'm still under NDA.
If it's allowed, i could do some translation for the crazy germans :-D

WindWalkr
August 18th, 2015, 05:21 AM
So it's allowed to talk to others about contents of this forums? I tought i'm still under NDA.
If it's allowed, i could do some translation for the crazy germans :-D

TrainzDev is visible to all users. There is no NDA relating to TrainzDev. Whatever NDAs you are under for other forums or other programs do not apply to TrainzDev, which is already public anyway. You are strongly encouraged to talk about TrainzDev business in other forums (and vice versa: you should encourage users to come to you with their concerns, and you should bring those concerns here when appropriate.)

chris

-Basti-
August 18th, 2015, 06:54 AM
Oh yes... i forgot.
It's all clear now.

I'll share the information of course, i'd like to translate JCitron (http://forums.auran.com/trainz/member.php?94863-JCitron)'s stickied post, if that's okay...

JCitron
August 18th, 2015, 11:24 AM
Oh yes... i forgot.
It's all clear now.

I'll share the information of course, i'd like to translate JCitron (http://forums.auran.com/trainz/member.php?94863-JCitron)'s stickied post, if that's okay...

By all means do so!

:)

itareus
August 18th, 2015, 06:21 PM
...I have made the opening post in the Kick Starter/T:ANE forum...

Well done for that John, it seems to have had a positive reception :) .

Has a TANE suggestions thread been further considered or will the old, rather tired, suggestions boxcar remain the vehicle ? I could help a little with the suggestions thread by doing a bit of filtering of things that can already be done or that would be wildly impractical and also rounding out the suggestions a little for the development team with the originator. I have a bit (over 10 yrs) of experience as a 'bridge' between users and developers in the UK railway industries IT systems.

Ooops I think I might have volunteered for something :confused: !

Chris

RRSignal
August 18th, 2015, 07:48 PM
Thanks for clarification on the NDA, Windwalkr. I wasn't too sure either.

WindWalkr
August 18th, 2015, 08:01 PM
Has a TANE suggestions thread been further considered or will the old, rather tired, suggestions boxcar remain the vehicle ?

I don't see any reason to replace it. We implement new features into new products anyway, so to be specific: the suggestions boxcar does not really apply to older versions, only (at the current time) T:ANE.



I could help a little with the suggestions thread by doing a bit of filtering of things that can already be done or that would be wildly impractical and also rounding out the suggestions a little for the development team with the originator. I have a bit (over 10 yrs) of experience as a 'bridge' between users and developers in the UK railway industries IT systems.

Anything that you can do to make people's lives easier is more than welcome :)

chris

clam1952
August 18th, 2015, 08:02 PM
Well done for that John, it seems to have had a positive reception :) .

Has a TANE suggestions thread been further considered or will the old, rather tired, suggestions boxcar remain the vehicle ? I could help a little with the suggestions thread by doing a bit of filtering of things that can already be done or that would be wildly impractical and also rounding out the suggestions a little for the development team with the originator. I have a bit (over 10 yrs) of experience as a 'bridge' between users and developers in the UK railway industries IT systems.

Ooops I think I might have volunteered for something :confused: !

Chris

Nicely volunteered Chris, I was thinking along similar lines! If you need any assistance though.....

RPearson
August 19th, 2015, 01:10 PM
What's working for you personally. What's not working for you personally. What you think is working or not working for the broader trainz community. How you think this process could be improved.
This forum works for me. It is informal but the necessary info seems to get communicated. I know we'd like more frequent updates from N3V but as I recall my own work days in an engineering environment there has to be a happy median. I suspect that Chris is spending as much time as he can afford on this forum and occasional posts on others. You got to remember someone has to be behind the curtain doing the work. What was a small shop has been reduce even more.

In that regard I'm still in andi06's camp. If someone (John aka JCitron appears to have volunteered for that and Chris aka itareus offering support) wants to take on the mantle as point person for communication to the community at large I'm actually for it. However in my mind it not a necessary part of fixing the current problems identified with TANE and I see that as the primary task of this forum.

Bob Pearson

itareus
August 19th, 2015, 03:49 PM
Re Suggestions Boxcar:
...I don't see any reason to replace it. We implement new features into new products anyway, so to be specific: the suggestions boxcar does not really apply to older versions, only (at the current time) T:ANE...

I just think it's a bit 'jaded' Chris (B), there have been so many things posted there that to go through and 'sort the wheat from the chaff' would be a mammoth task. But no need to re-invent the wheel, why not close the current (with a closing post but leave access available) and start with a clean sheet new TANE suggestions boxcar thread based on the new environment ? Just a thought.

What will be needed (if we keep the old thread or have a new one ) is a way to 'pass' or 'fail' suggestions (after they have been filtered). Doing this in just text just means things inevitably get lost or wrong so some structure is needed (I think) but only a simple flag to be set on the forum (using one that already exists ?) OR we could submit a weekly report of filtered enhancements to be considered. Do you see what I'm getting at?


Nicely volunteered Chris, I was thinking along similar lines! If you need any assistance though.....

There is no reason why two (or more) of us can't share the task, nice of you to volunteer :). What do you think to my comments above ?

Chris (M)

clam1952
August 19th, 2015, 03:58 PM
Re Suggestions Boxcar:

I just think it's a bit 'jaded' Chris (B), there have been so many things posted there that to go through and 'sort the wheat from the chaff' would be a mammoth task. But no need to re-invent the wheel, why not close the current (with a closing post but leave access available) and start with a clean sheet new TANE suggestions boxcar thread based on the new environment ? Just a thought.

What will be needed (if we keep the old thread or have a new one ) is a way to 'pass' or 'fail' suggestions (after they have been filtered). Doing this in just text just means things inevitably get lost or wrong so some structure is needed (I think) but only a simple flag to be set on the forum (using one that already exists ?) OR we could submit a weekly report of filtered enhancements to be considered. Do you see what I'm getting at?



There is no reason why two (or more) of us can't share the task, nice of you to volunteer :). What do you think to my comments above ?

Chris (M)

I'm inclined to agree, firstly a lot of the stuff is outdated and secondly we will probably get the inevitable I want this in TS2010, fix this in TS12 posts. Although I believe the posts are still vetted first? Or alternatively just amend the title to T:ANE Suggestion Boxcar.

I like the idea of a New thread for a New Era though. I'll get my coat.......

JCitron
August 19th, 2015, 04:32 PM
I'm inclined to agree, firstly a lot of the stuff is outdated and secondly we will probably get the inevitable I want this in TS2010, fix this in TS12 posts. Although I believe the posts are still vetted first? Or alternatively just amend the title to T:ANE Suggestion Boxcar.

I like the idea of a New thread for a New Era though. I'll get my coat.......

So do I. Let's start fresh. :)

John

itareus
August 20th, 2015, 02:41 PM
...I like the idea of a New thread for a New Era though. I'll get my coat.......

So sharp I've cut myself :) !

Chris

itareus
August 21st, 2015, 03:55 PM
For Chris B,

Here is something worth considering from a thread (recently updated) in the existing Suggestions Boxcar:

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?121058-Environment-effects-RGB-in-numerical-form&p=1434582&posted=1#post1434582

In fact the use of dials may look pretty but it's always been a royal PIA to those of us who would like precise control over the result, not just in the areas mentioned in the above thread but in most areas where dials are used. Could a quick fix be to add a numeric up down next to the dials ?

750

More sophisticated might be a slider with a numeric up down as well.

I'm posting this here as an interim but there really needs to be a (slightly) more structured way of managing messages such as this.

Chris M

WindWalkr
August 21st, 2015, 07:21 PM
I'm posting this here as an interim but there really needs to be a (slightly) more structured way of managing messages such as this.

There is! :)

Post it in its own thread.

chris

itareus
August 21st, 2015, 09:12 PM
Well I've just done that Chris but it's not what I would call structured, anyway look for Suggestions Boxcar (1) ..... where (1) is an incremental number.

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?122428-Suggestions-Boxcar-%281%29-Dials-are-not-accurate-enough

We will have to see if this works :).

T'Other Chris

itareus
August 24th, 2015, 08:18 PM
Chris B

Well I've 'promoted' a couple of suggestions so far and I would still as a very minimum like to see a new sticky TANE suggestions section (and the old one closed) and also, in the new section, the ability to effectively:

a) close & marked 'promoted'
or
b) close and marked 'deferred' (more diplomatic than 'a load of rubbish, ignore')

Is this really so hard/impossible/time consuming to do using the forum software ?

Anybody else have any thought on this ?

Chris M