PDA

View Full Version : internal test build 77327



WindWalkr
July 17th, 2015, 08:07 AM
Hi all,

Usual drill. New build. Assorted optimisations went in this week. Each one is pretty minor, but they add up. A few more performance stats are available, but this is still a work-in-progress.

Some key items that might be of interest, and could do with some feedback:

* Mesh rendering now ignores the tangent data from the IM file, rebuilding it at load time. This should hopefully work around the corrupted IM files that are screwing up the normal maps, until such time as we get a new exporter. Let me know if this works on your models.
* LM.txt transition distances have been tweaked again based on the latest feedback. Again, please make any comparisons against the same model in TS12.
* TrainzUtil command socket is no longer enabled by default, since most users won't want this. It is enabled with "Enable Advanced Debug Tools".
* Some types of SpeedTree should look better from certain angles.

chris

rumour3
July 17th, 2015, 03:04 PM
Had a quick look this evening. Twisted normal issues appear to be fixed, for me anyway- thanks Chris (and maybe Tram__ ...?). Containers on ECML freightliner session pop in and out with distance. Quite pleased with frame rates cf release version, but still not likely to set the 'max sliders' gaming community alight (Lenovo Y50 laptop- Core i7 4710HQ @2.5GHz, 16 GB RAM, GTX 860M, 4GB VRAM, 4K screen).

R3

WindWalkr
July 17th, 2015, 06:47 PM
Twisted normal issues appear to be fixed, for me anyway- thanks Chris (and maybe Tram__ ...?).

No, not related to Tram__'s work, but power to him for finding a workaround :)



Containers on ECML freightliner session pop in and out with distance.

This actually depends on scenery detail setting.



still not likely to set the 'max sliders' gaming community alight (Lenovo Y50 laptop- Core i7 4710HQ @2.5GHz, 16 GB RAM, GTX 860M, 4GB VRAM, 4K screen).

Never will. Too many polygons.

chris

rumour3
July 18th, 2015, 02:49 AM
I can see that it makes sense to drop passenger meshes and other poly-intensive loads quite early on, but for a load like a container, which defines the profile of the car from a long way away, there needs to be some kind of override, either in settings or in the asset config, that keeps it in view.

Is there anything that can be done to make the start of the ECML built in sessions appear smoother? Although I get acceptable frame rates once loaded, the jerky zooming in on the front of the Deltic before you end up in the (excellent) cab view really makes the game feel sticky. Perhaps it could load direct to the cab?

R3

WindWalkr
July 18th, 2015, 04:33 AM
I can see that it makes sense to drop passenger meshes and other poly-intensive loads quite early on, but for a load like a container,

Unfortunately, poly count has little to do with performance of loads. They're typically not high enough poly-count to matter.



which defines the profile of the car from a long way away, there needs to be some kind of override, either in settings or in the asset config, that keeps it in view.

We'll continue to tweak that algorithm, but there will be no content-creator overrides in the immediate future. The effect is clumsy but is the only way to solve that particular performance issue on low-spec machines that is currently available to us. The end user can step up their detail setting to remove this effect at the expense of some performance. Feedback on what works well and what does not are very welcome, but I can't promise to simply accept the "looks better" arguments over the "performs better" arguments. There needs to be a reasonable mix, and getting this mix will require some back-and-forth.

Better long-term solutions are available, such as use attachment-culling in the LOD. This is currently not utilised by content creators, so until it is widely adopted, we can't rely on it to solve the shorter-term concerns. There are also two problems with this on N3V's side:
* That attachment-culling as per LM.txt is all-or-nothing. We will introduce improvements to this system that go beyond what Jet offered.
* That attachment-culling and animation culling as per LM.txt are not currently functional in T:ANE. This is due to the decoupled nature of the E2 render engine- T:ANE has no way at present to determine when a given mesh has changed LOD, so doesn't know to check for this culling. This isn't costing us much at the moment, but it is costing us opportunities to improve the content, so we're definitely working on a solution to this.



Is there anything that can be done to make the start of the ECML built in sessions appear smoother? Although I get acceptable frame rates once loaded, the jerky zooming in on the front of the Deltic before you end up in the (excellent) cab view really makes the game feel sticky. Perhaps it could load direct to the cab?

It's always possible for the session creator (to some extent) and route creator (to a much greater extent, but limited sometimes at the expense of realism/accuracy) to improve performance. I'll mention this for the future. This isn't something that's relevant to this group at the current time beyond a discussion of where these kind of problems arise and how best to avoid them by better content creation (feel free to start a thread on that topic.)

chris

andi06
July 18th, 2015, 05:03 AM
Not a good start with this build. I still have the same crashes, on exiting Quickdrive and random dropouts in use (sometimes to blue screen)

What's worse is that FPS on my test route has dropped from 60 to 45 and there is now considerable jitter.

rumour3
July 18th, 2015, 05:06 AM
The effect is clumsy but is the only way to solve that particular performance issue on low-spec machines that is currently available to us. The end user can step up their detail setting to remove this effect at the expense of some performance. Feedback on what works well and what does not are very welcome, but I can't promise to simply accept the "looks better" arguments over the "performs better" arguments. There needs to be a reasonable mix, and getting this mix will require some back-and-forth.

I agree about the need for a balance, but be really careful about how this affects the overall out of the box experience. If a user installs the game without changing the defaults and then goes into the ECML Freightliner session and gets OK frame rates but the containers disappear as they currently do, you're probably looking at more half hour videos on YouTube saying how dire the game is. Personally, I don't think culling container-type loads should be regarded as a realistic option unless it is at extreme viewing distances. If you do go down this path, I would recommend dropping the Freightliner session from the default install and replacing it with something less affected by this feature- but I guess we're probably too far down the road to change the route/session content set?

R3

WindWalkr
July 18th, 2015, 05:19 AM
I agree about the need for a balance, but be really careful about how this affects the overall out of the box experience. If a user installs the game without changing the defaults and then goes into the ECML Freightliner session and gets OK frame rates but the containers disappear as they currently do, you're probably looking at more half hour videos on YouTube saying how dire the game is.

Can't win either way :)

chris

WindWalkr
July 18th, 2015, 05:19 AM
What's worse is that FPS on my test route has dropped from 60 to 45 and there is now considerable jitter.

Is this on a single route, or across all routes?

chris

whitepass
July 18th, 2015, 08:46 AM
Had to download two time so I have only had a short time to look but the smooth bug looks to be fixed.

WindWalkr
July 18th, 2015, 08:52 AM
Had to download two time so I have only had a short time to look but the smooth bug looks to be fixed.

What is the smooth bug?

cheers,

chris

whitepass
July 18th, 2015, 11:12 AM
Your tangent data thing.

Lm.txt LOD looks about the same from TS12 to TANE.

Night lights for passenger cars is still not working.

The textures are also still to light in TANE even with changing the environment settings.

There is an odd bug in the big passenger station on the KC route that only passenger car doors on one side of the car open.

pcas1986
July 19th, 2015, 01:32 AM
I've just gotten around to installing this version and I'm getting errors saying " This Trainz version does not allow installation of third party content.". This includes my own test data.

No one else has complained of this so I guess I've done something I shouldn't. Before I start re-installing can someone enlighten me as to the problem?

WindWalkr
July 19th, 2015, 01:37 AM
I've just gotten around to installing this version and I'm getting errors saying " This Trainz version does not allow installation of third party content.". This includes my own test data.

No one else has complained of this so I guess I've done something I shouldn't. Before I start re-installing can someone enlighten me as to the problem?

This typically indicates that you have not yet entered your MyTrainz details in the build, or that the build was unable to go online to verify them. Check the appropriate settings panel (or click 'start trainz') for more detail.

chris

pcas1986
July 19th, 2015, 02:04 AM
That's weird because that was the first thing I checked after installation and the details were already there. Copying existing data must have caused a glitch.

Thanks for the prompt reply. :)

Edit: Retyped my userid, password and pressed enter and it came good.

pcas1986
July 19th, 2015, 04:36 AM
LOD transitions look a bit better. Transitions for my test asset are:

LOD0 to LOD1 ~30% (of screen width - full screen)
LOD1 to LOD2 ~16%
LOD2 to LOD3 ~2.75%

Values for windowed mode were about 35%, 19% and 3.5% for the default window size chosen by T:ANE. I don't know if T:ANE remembers a previous window size. Anyway, it was definitely an improvement and the values are similar to TS12.

The "twisted normals" (if that is the right name) looked better or rather I cannot see them any more.

Late Sunday PM I had all sorts of problems with exporting or importing CDPs using the menu. Dropping a CDP onto CM worked fine. There did appear to be a problem with the DLS at the same time so I wonder if it was related. While writing this post I checked again and the problem seemed to be gone. I'll try again tomorrow.

A couple of my test routes lost their ground textures. But I had problems installing this version and, with the DLS playing up, missing dependencies were an issue. So I may delete and start again.

whitepass
July 19th, 2015, 02:54 PM
Imported old test map and got a faulty signal from the DLS, Signal USA1 03 kuid:-12:24003, needs to be fixed.

JCitron
July 19th, 2015, 06:18 PM
I imported about 4300 assets from the commercial release using the import content folders and my system crashed and rebooted.

Steps:

1 Opened up the assets for editing and closed build 76536.

2 Opened up Test Build 77241 and used import asset folders and let it do its thing.

First my system got very doggy slow, the display driver crashed 2x and then the system rebooted.

There was no crash.dmp in the T:ANE data folder.

I do have a Windows Memory.dmp file which is 1.7GB if you want it and there is a Windows mini.dmp file if you want that too.

Here's a clip of the WinBG output using !analyze - v

SYMBOL_STACK_INDEX: 3
SYMBOL_NAME: nt!ExDeferredFreePool+f0
FOLLOWUP_NAME: Pool_corruption
IMAGE_NAME: Pool_Corruption
DEBUG_FLR_IMAGE_TIMESTAMP: 0
MODULE_NAME: Pool_Corruption
BUCKET_ID_FUNC_OFFSET: f0
FAILURE_BUCKET_ID: 0xC5_2_nt!ExDeferredFreePool
BUCKET_ID: 0xC5_2_nt!ExDeferredFreePool
ANALYSIS_SOURCE: KM
FAILURE_ID_HASH_STRING: km:0xc5_2_nt!exdeferredfreepool
FAILURE_ID_HASH: {0e971f5b-bd0d-a80e-a2c0-cd331176cf49}
Followup: Pool_corruption


HTH.

John

S301
July 20th, 2015, 01:59 AM
Can confirm here, both types of issues with specular/normals maps are resolved in this build.

The 'distorted' surfaces definitely. And I'm not seeing the normals map 'invert' part way across surfaces.

Regards
Zec

pcas1986
July 20th, 2015, 02:51 AM
The export to cdp for a single asset has rather odd behaviour. When I select an asset and, from the right mouse button, select "Export to CDP", I get a view of my last used folder like this:

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z410/casper131/Ashampoo_Snap_2015.07.20_17h38m25s_002_Save%20As_z ps9qhb7sew.jpg

When I select Save I get the completion dialog box and then a different view of the same folder like this:

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z410/casper131/Ashampoo_Snap_2015.07.20_17h39m00s_003_D--Tane-Assets%20for%20importing%20to%20later%20versions_z pskxmvbmmx.jpg

If a file with the same name exists then I don't get any warning about overwriting. While the process does work, it's not really using "standard" behaviour for creating or overwriting files.

If I select multiple assets for exporting then the process is the same except for the default name "content-archive.cdp". The process is also leaving open a new copy of the folder (file explorer) each time.

pcas1986
July 20th, 2015, 03:26 AM
A bit more on this:

After saving about 15-18 cdp packages Windows Explorer started misbehaving and becoming unresponsive. I had to resort to using Task Manager to close off some windows and that just made it worse. Eventually, I had to restart Windows to clear the problem. All my CDPs were there but I think something is getting corrupted in the export CDP process.

I was backing up my test content to make it easier to migrate from one beta version to another. My previous process of copying the local folder didn't always work as I would like.

andi06
July 20th, 2015, 04:42 AM
Is this on a single route, or across all routes?

The comparison was between 76401 and 77327 and I can't be 100% sure that the same settings were in force. I have re-tested between 77241 and 77327 using the same userdata folder for each build and there is no significant difference. However the incidence of sessions terminated by crashes (especially blue screens) is higher in 77327.

I've run some tests on my graphics card which it passes with flying colours so I'm fairly confident now in laying the blame at your door. Driver is fully up to date.

pcas1986
July 20th, 2015, 05:37 AM
See the following picture:

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z410/casper131/Ashampoo_Snap_2015.07.20_20h15m45s_001_Trainz-%20A%20New%20Era_zpswouggqsq.jpg

This is within a session for one of my routes. I did look at a couple of other included sessions such as Kickstarter Country but the icon wasn't visible. This is a route I imported from TS12 and which had a few missing assets that I deleted.

If I click on the icon then the Train folder displays.


I also had a video driver crash and restart when loading up one of the Healesville sessions. T:ANE didn't recover and I had to kill it off. Video driver is NVidia 353.30. I'll try that session again tomorrow.

RPearson
July 20th, 2015, 03:27 PM
Paul, I've seen that icon in Driver but so far it's only been when the game thinks I need to load in a new consist - at least I thought so. Maybe a consist's missing in your session?

Bob Pearson

Edit: I checked a few sessions in both 74536 and 77327 and didn't get anything like I remember. I think it was with a route I ported in from TS12 but which one? My Full EBT map, test Oval tracks, N&W and a couple of other's - there weren't that many.

andi06
July 20th, 2015, 04:00 PM
It seems to be an alternative or replacement for the Quickdrive rule, allowing you to place trains in the driver session.

pcas1986
July 20th, 2015, 09:45 PM
This is a session I wrote for an old route of mine that has several consists running around doing their own thing. The route itself has a few issues with missing assets and odd looking textures but I wasn't going to overhaul it until T:ANE was stable. Basically the route and sessions work fine although some of my passengers waiting at stations have taken to wandering onto the tracks or submersing themselves in the platforum. All fixable.

Since I hadn't seen it in any of the test routes/sessions, I assumed it was either a new bug/feature or perhaps an issue in my route/session. I'll have another look at it when I can find some time.

WindWalkr
July 21st, 2015, 12:03 AM
Yeah, it's brought up by QuickDrive, as a native alternative to QD's "place a train" functionality. The tools should work much as they do in Surveyor.

chris

pcas1986
July 21st, 2015, 12:40 AM
Yeah, it's brought up by QuickDrive, as a native alternative to QD's "place a train" functionality. The tools should work much as they do in Surveyor.

chris

Thanks. As I wasn't expecting it, it looked a bit odd. :)

martinvk
July 21st, 2015, 07:34 PM
The last time my LOD results in 77241 were

Made a quick LOD test sphere 20m diameter

LOD0 960 polys Red
LOD1 224 polys Green
LOD2 48 polys Blue
LOD3 8 polys Black (not shown)

transition distances and % of screen width
LOD0 to LOD1 60m @ 25%
LOD1 to LOD2 110m @ 13%
LOD2 to LOD3 264m @ 6%

Screen 1900 x 1200

Now in 77327 I get
transition distances and % of screen width
LOD0 to LOD1 60m @ 27%
LOD1 to LOD2 108m @ 14%
LOD2 to LOD3 262m @ 7%

Not a significant difference
707

JCitron
July 21st, 2015, 08:14 PM
I gave build 77327 a whirl as I edited a route I imported from TS12. This is a route I've been working on since December 2003 and is about 354 km (220 miles) long, and made up of mergers from other people's work as well as DEMs and my own work. The Surveyor performance was reasonable, much smoother than I've seen in TS12 where the fps were around 12-15. In this build they were double that, and similar to what I've seen in Build 76536.

The find function is still semi-broken in Surveyor, meaning you can't find something you've typed in until you select something on the list first. This of course sends you off to somewhere else initially then, upon typing in your searched for location, you'll speedily move that that location. This issue is the same in the commercial (public) release.

So far no CTDs when saving or doing lots of mousing around. I'll continue that until I get some and let you know.

John

martinvk
July 21st, 2015, 08:53 PM
Have been running three of the built-in sessions in Kickstarter County, Chinese SS$, SNCF BB 75000 and BNSF EMD SD70MAC, saving each and retuning to the session page ready to select another one without any crashes.

The Find seems to work normally. I click on Find in the menu, the dialog box opens, I start typing what I want to find and the list adjusts itself as I type more letters. Unless there are many objects starting with the same letter, I quickly narrow down the choice to what I want.

martinvk
July 21st, 2015, 09:20 PM
Next I created a new session in ECML. Placed two trains and tried to give them Navigate To instructions from within Driver. I couldn't get the commands to show in the driver's command bar Also got the red bug. Exited and gave the same trains their instruction from within Surveyor and it worked. Returned to Driver and both started off to their destinations.

While passing through Edinburgh Waverly, I noticed a large group of passengers on the rails instead of on the platform. A rather dangerous practice.
708

pcas1986
July 21st, 2015, 11:04 PM
...

While passing through Edinburgh Waverly, I noticed a large group of passengers on the rails instead of on the platform. A rather dangerous practice.
...

I had this in my route and in my case I was using one of Andi's invisible stations. Adjusting the passenger height via the properties browser solved a height problem but I still have passengers off the edge of the platform. The asset seemed to be rotated from it's original position and attempting fix that in surveyor results in the track getting twisted.

Perhaps rebuilding the station from it's various parts might solve the problem but if there is an underlying issue then that work might be nugatory. So I'm happy for my passengers to wander off the platform for the time being.

andi06
July 22nd, 2015, 03:27 AM
The station settings are not being initialised by the game, I don't think that they are being properly saved either.

pcas1986
July 22nd, 2015, 04:12 AM
The station settings are not being initialised by the game, I don't think that they are being properly saved either.

I can confirm that. After elevating my passengers and saving the route, they decided to immerse themselves in concrete again. So this is something saved in the route and not a session - i.e. a soup?

andi06
July 22nd, 2015, 05:50 AM
There are a couple of sets of animation in the assets, one to control the passenger height and others to control the passenger positions relative to the platforms.

These are initialised by the script (to 1.3 and straight respectively) when the stations are first placed. This data is then saved to the session on exit using GetProperties()/SetProperties() in the normal way. What you are seeing is all of the animations set to frame zero which should never happen unless the route creator specifically sets it via Object Properties.

Its become something of a tradition for Auran to break these assets when new versions are first issued.

WindWalkr
July 22nd, 2015, 08:13 AM
We've got to do something to keep you entertained ;-)

Any idea what specifically is breaking?

chris

andi06
July 22nd, 2015, 08:46 AM
It varies a bit between objects, but typically each station will contain up to three animations:

height.kin - starts at zero and ends at 1.5 metres or so
shape.kin or north.kin/south.kin - starts with the passenger areas displaced in one direction and ends with them displaced in the other.

The default position (1.3 high and straight) needs all of these animations set somewhere in the middle of their ranges. When the objects are placed the animations are moved by the script via a library call to suitable default values which are then written to the session soup. This doesn't seem to be happening.

Route-creators can open object properties, adjust the animations, and save back. This also doesn't seem to be working.

Looks like an issue with GetProperties() / SetProperties().