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WindWalkr
July 13th, 2015, 06:49 PM
A new test build is available. This is supposed to resolve the crash that you were seeing in some sessions, the crash when using CM menu shortcut keys, all problems with viewing files in Explorer, problems with Surveyor Save, and "copy details". I'd also like mesh creators to give feedback on where we are with LOD transition points.

chris

pcas1986
July 13th, 2015, 08:14 PM
A new test build is available. This is supposed to resolve the crash that you were seeing in some sessions, the crash when using CM menu shortcut keys, all problems with viewing files in Explorer, problems with Surveyor Save, and "copy details". I'd also like mesh creators to give feedback on where we are with LOD transition points.

chris

OK, I'll download that as well. I did have a quick look at LM.TXT LOD transitions yesterday in 77169 and it looked much better. But I need to try and take some measurements to convince myself. Is it just the LM.TXT method that has been adjusted or the scenery version as well? My impression was the scenery version was OK.

WindWalkr
July 13th, 2015, 09:02 PM
OK, I'll download that as well. I did have a quick look at LM.TXT LOD transitions yesterday in 77169 and it looked much better. But I need to try and take some measurements to convince myself. Is it just the LM.TXT method that has been adjusted or the scenery version as well? My impression was the scenery version was OK.

Just the LM.txt loader. E2 doesn't handle LOD the same way as Jet, so the values from the text file need to be reprocessed to simulate the same effects.

chris

ianwoodmore
July 13th, 2015, 11:07 PM
Dropout fixed from menu

Ran ECML Freightliner for 50 miles without a dropout.

FPS at 2500m draw distance was 64 and at 15000m was 60. This is on C:/ drive SSD. Incidentally HUD says we are in Imperial measure mph, whereas Maximum Draw Distance is in Metric metres!!!

My PC was multi-tasking with a second copy TANE loaded from HDD doing a database repair on DLS maxi-instal over the whole of this run.

Note message at start says we have a load of containers, but all container flats are empty.

ianwoodmore
July 13th, 2015, 11:36 PM
Saving a Session

Load Game Menu <2 secs.

Save Freightliner session 20 secs plus <10secs return to session menu.
Load Freightliner session previously saved 3 mins. Runs from same spot but several popup messages to choose DCC or Cab contol. Shouldn't it just run from where left off without these messages?

ianwoodmore
July 13th, 2015, 11:43 PM
ECML Freightliner Session

Track LOD0 and LOD1 transitions very noticeable with LOD2 almost no detail.

Buildings and trees popping dependant to some extent on Maximum Draw Distance with 2500m worst.

Hedges look like they are bowing down as train goes past. Horrible.

ianwoodmore
July 13th, 2015, 11:46 PM
'Copy Details' fixed.
'Select All' fixed

Thankyou

WindWalkr
July 14th, 2015, 02:47 AM
ECML Freightliner Session

Track LOD0 and LOD1 transitions very noticeable with LOD2 almost no detail.

Buildings and trees popping dependant to some extent on Maximum Draw Distance with 2500m worst.

Hedges look like they are bowing down as train goes past. Horrible.

Thanks for the reports Ian, some useful info there.

One comment on this last one. On this forum, we're not beta testing per se, and so I'll pretty much outright ignore comments about whether things look good. What I *am* interested in is (1) whether assets look the same as they did in TS12, and (2) whether things have gone down-hill as compared to the retail version. In both cases, I'd expect technical details (ie. "my asset is changing LOD too early" or "this tree doesn't seem to be switching to high LOD ever, at these settings".)

cheers,

chris

pcas1986
July 14th, 2015, 04:44 AM
My thoughts so far:

The hot keys in CM look OK now. i.e. the Ctrl Shift R (Preview Asset) and Ctrl I (Show Asset Details).

I did have a major disaster with Ctrl E (Edit in explorer). I picked a random asset and, when I pressed Ctrl E, a whole lot of dialog boxes cascaded across the screen and my virus checker (Trend Micro Ultimate) promptly stepped in, shut down T:ANE and quarantined both TANE.Exe and the desktop link. It took me a while to figure how to restore the files.

I don't recall what asset I had highlighted but I did wonder if I might have had several selected but out of view. So the net effect might be as Andi mentioned recently. Since then I've tried Ctrl E on a number of known assets (mine) and it works fine. The other thing that may be relevant is that I had significant issues just getting this version to run correctly and saw a lot of problems mentioned in the forums. In this instance it may have been my fault because of the way I copied data from previous builds.

LOD transitions (LM.TXT):
There are still problems with this. My test loco has LOD values of 1.00, 0.95, 0.50 and 0.10 for the four meshes. The transition to LOD1 occurred at about 11% of screen width, to LOD2 at 6% and LOD3 at less than 1%. My test route is quite small so the last transition was with an overhead view. Perhaps I'll add a few more baseboards. The first transition is a concern because the high poly LOD is visible for a very long time. The other transitions are less of a concern.

WindWalkr
July 14th, 2015, 06:07 AM
LOD transitions (LM.TXT):
There are still problems with this. My test loco has LOD values of 1.00, 0.95, 0.50 and 0.10 for the four meshes. The transition to LOD1 occurred at about 11% of screen width, to LOD2 at 6% and LOD3 at less than 1%. My test route is quite small so the last transition was with an overhead view. Perhaps I'll add a few more baseboards. The first transition is a concern because the high poly LOD is visible for a very long time. The other transitions are less of a concern.

can i ask for the same detail on this asset in ts12?

thx,

chris

andi06
July 14th, 2015, 06:29 AM
Looks like the Surveyor/Save issue may have been fixed.

Still getting 60FPS on Rosworth, maxing shadows costs about 5FPS, but shadows not working for scenery assets (other than speedtrees)

Still had a CTD when calling Exit Driver from a Quickdrive session, still no crashdump.

pcas1986
July 14th, 2015, 07:29 AM
can i ask for the same detail on this asset in ts12?

thx,

chris

OK, probably tomorrow afternoon (Wed).

WindWalkr
July 14th, 2015, 07:33 AM
Looks like the Surveyor/Save issue may have been fixed.

Okay, that's excellent news.




Still getting 60FPS on Rosworth, maxing shadows costs about 5FPS, but shadows not working for scenery assets (other than speedtrees)

Low shadows now disables shadowcasting on a bunch of scenery types. The exact list will need to be fine-tuned (bridges currently don't shadowcast, and clearly need to) but the performance gains are substantial on some hardware. It can mean the difference between not having shadows, or having fairly decent shadowing- and the people with beefier machines can switch up to High shadows if they really want shadows on everything.



Still had a CTD when calling Exit Driver from a Quickdrive session, still no crashdump.

If anyone can figure out a repro for this, let me know.

chris

andi06
July 14th, 2015, 07:54 AM
Low shadows now disables shadowcasting on a bunch of scenery types. The exact list will need to be fine-tuned (bridges currently don't shadowcast, and clearly need to) but the performance gains are substantial on some hardware. It can mean the difference between not having shadows, or having fairly decent shadowing- and the people with beefier machines can switch up to High shadows if they really want shadows on everything.

That may be the intention but at present I have both shadow settings maxed out and I'm only seeing shadows on traincars, speedtrees and vehicles.


If anyone can figure out a repro for this, let me know.
I can reproduce it almost at will:

Load a route, any route, go to Quickdrive.
Without doing anything else call Main Menu/Exit Driver.
After a short pause I get an OS message:

[Window Title] TANE.exe
[Main Instruction] TANE.exe has stopped working
[Content] Windows is checking for a solution to the problem...
[Close Program]

followed by

[Window Title]TANE.exe
[Main Instruction] TANE.exe has stopped working
[Content] A problem caused the program to stop working correctly. Windows will close the program and notify you if a solution is available.
[Close program]

WindWalkr
July 14th, 2015, 08:26 AM
That may be the intention but at present I have both shadow settings maxed out and I'm only seeing shadows on traincars, speedtrees and vehicles.

To ask the obvious: you *have* fully restarted the game after setting everything to max, right?

If so, yeah- there must be a separate issue.





I can reproduce it almost at will:

Thanks, I'll try those specific steps. I would have expected to have someone complaining about it internally, or have encountered it myself, if it were that simple across the board, so I'm guessing that there's something else going on..

chris

andi06
July 14th, 2015, 08:33 AM
To ask the obvious: you *have* fully restarted the game after setting everything to max, right?
I restarted the whole machine in fact (for reasons unconnected with TRS)

andi06
July 14th, 2015, 09:20 AM
Looks like the shadow issue will just be a typo. If I downgrade from Ultra to High the shadows come back on scenery items. :-)

WindWalkr
July 14th, 2015, 10:05 AM
Thanks, useful info.

chris

JCitron
July 14th, 2015, 12:36 PM
Chris,

I can confirm the crash in Quick Drive.

1) I setup a simple loop route. Plopped a train down and went for a ride. I then hit exit to go back to the main menu when T:ANE crashed, Windows produced the program as stopped working message. There is no crash.dmp produced.

Here is a clip from my Event Viewer.

Faulting application name: TANE.exe, version: 0.0.0.0, time stamp: 0x55a3caf1
Faulting module name: ntdll.dll, version: 10.0.10166.0, time stamp: 0x55975f79
Exception code: 0xc0000374
Fault offset: 0x00000000000ea31c
Faulting process id: 0x1c84
Faulting application start time: 0x01d0be5887cfa62b
Faulting application path: D:\ts15_Windows_SIMCENTRAL_77241\TANE.exe
Faulting module path: C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\ntdll.dll
Report Id: ecc94ad1-0b53-49f0-9fcf-7edcba8a59d2
Faulting package full name:
Faulting package-relative application ID:

Mick_Berg
July 14th, 2015, 12:52 PM
Sorry, wrong place.
Mick

JCitron
July 14th, 2015, 12:54 PM
I'm sorry to have to ask, but I can't remember it and can't find it. How do you show FPS in Driver?
Mick

On the T:ANE Launcher, click on Developer and pick Profiler. Ignore the other numbers in there and look at the FPS in the upper left.

On my test loop with no trees, just some signals and a train consist, I got a solid 60 fps.

John

martinvk
July 14th, 2015, 04:13 PM
Tried to reproduce the crash from Quick Drive without success.

Opened Kickstarter County
Selected Quick Drive
Clicked Drive Session
Closed the info windows
Minimized the Quick Drive window
From the Menu, selected Exit Driver
Back in Route selection and not on the Desktop

andi06
July 14th, 2015, 04:52 PM
The problem occurs when Quickdrive is called directly from Surveyor using the menu bar button or Ctrl-F2.

JCitron
July 14th, 2015, 05:15 PM
The problem occurs when Quickdrive is called directly from Surveyor using the menu bar button or Ctrl-F2.

That's what I did.

Speaking of quickdrive from a route.... I couldn't put down a consist. I tried that 3x, but I wasn't sure I was doing properly. To tell you the truth, I never used it even in TS12.

John

andi06
July 14th, 2015, 05:31 PM
I couldn't put down a consist. I tried that 3x, but I wasn't sure I was doing properly.

The Surveyor Trains tab (function key F7) is now available in this kind of Quickdrive which makes it possible to place trains in the same way that they are placed in Surveyor. This is much more straightforward than the Quickdrive rule. We just need to get rid of some of the extraneous message boxes.

Pencil42
July 15th, 2015, 12:30 AM
Saving to .cdp appears to be fixed; TANE no longer restarts and automatically re-commits the saved asset(s). Thank you!
Night mode meshes on locomotives still don't appear to work yet.

Thanks for the note about the new quickdrive, Andi - that's actually kinda handy :)

Curtis

pcas1986
July 15th, 2015, 12:44 AM
The problem occurs when Quickdrive is called directly from Surveyor using the menu bar button or Ctrl-F2.

It took me a few tries but I finally managed to reproduce this. The first time I tried it directly from surveyor TANE asked me to create a default session. It didn't crash on that occasion. But when I tried it again from Surveyor, it went into the session (not sure which one), and I ignored the popups and exited. That time I got the error messages. There is a dump file but it is empty but it did have the current timestamp.

pcas1986
July 15th, 2015, 12:46 AM
p.s. The second time, when it crashed, I used the Ctrl+F2 hotkey.

pcas1986
July 15th, 2015, 02:16 AM
can i ask for the same detail on this asset in ts12?

thx,

chris

I've run this test again in both TS12 SP1 and T:ANE 77241 and this time I moved my LOD transition indicator down so the bounding box height is reduced. This is how LOD0 looks in the mesh viewer within AssetX:

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z410/casper131/Ashampoo_Snap_2015.07.15_16h54m10s_001__zps2desp66 8.jpg

Both TS12 and T:ANE were run in full screen mode. The LM.TXT settings are:



version 1.0
offset = 0.01;
calcPoint = center;
multiplier = 1.0;
animationCutOff = 0.00;
renderCutOff = 0.00;
attachmentCutOff = 0.09;


mesh("0.10") {
name="body840-lod3.im";
}
mesh("0.50") {
name="body840-lod2.im";
}
mesh("0.95") {
name="body840-lod1.im";
}
mesh("1.00") {
name="body840-lod0.im";
}




Transition changes in TS12 were:

LOD0 to LOD1 33%
LOD1 to LOD2 19%
LOD2 to LOD3 4%

Transition changes to T:ANE were:

LOD0 to LOD1 15%
LOD1 to LOD2 7.5%
LOD2 to LOD3 2%

As you can see the T:ANE results are about half of that of TS12. It's difficult to see how those numbers relate to the LM.TXT settings. I'd expect numbers closer to 95%, 50% and 10% unless I've misunderstood how they work.

HTH

andi06
July 15th, 2015, 06:51 AM
I've been running TRS more or less continuously for the past day or two, generally starting up a session and leaving it running without user interaction.

Performance is generally quite good and I'm usually getting acceptable frame rates on the default settings. Where my frame rate is 60FPS I can max out the draw distance more or less for free, full shadows costs about 5FPS, the other settings are more variable. Display is generally smooth but there is very slight juddering on some routes which seems to coincide with prominent speed-trees dropping out of view.

Most of these sessions end (after an average half an hour) in one of two ways:



Trainz simply disappears, I'm back to the Desktop and the system as a whole remains stable. There is usually no crashdump but I do have just one example which I will send in if you want it?
Blue screen crash.


The split between these two exit modes is roughly 50:50. The crashes happen at different places on the route, different conditions, no common thread that I can see.

On old routes (with track updated to one of my procedural-tracks and Speed-trees in lieu of billboards) LOD is being handled very well indeed. Hinton looks OK, although I'm down to about 25FPS here.

ECML however is a pig's ear, even in Surveyor. It seems that track updates are struggling to keep up with changes in viewpoint and segments are being updated in the wrong order - none of this can be captured on a screenshot though.

WindWalkr
July 15th, 2015, 07:18 AM
Transition changes in TS12 were:

LOD0 to LOD1 33%
LOD1 to LOD2 19%
LOD2 to LOD3 4%

Just to make sure we're on the same page, can you spell out what these percentages represent?

thx,

chris

pcas1986
July 15th, 2015, 07:26 AM
Just to make sure we're on the same page, can you spell out what these percentages represent?

thx,

chris

My screen width is 53cm and I'm measuring the width of the loco and dividing it by 53. Not very accurate but close enough. My screen resolution is 1920*1080.

WindWalkr
July 15th, 2015, 08:19 AM
Thanks. In that case..




I'd expect numbers closer to 95%, 50% and 10% unless I've misunderstood how they work.

No, you're quite correct, which is why we're having difficulty matching T:ANE to TS12. TS12 works like it claims mathematically, but the source numbers are not necessarily what you'd expect for a number of reasons. T:ANE probably comes much closer to your expectations natively, so we're having to tweak things to some semblance of compatibility. To make matters worse, I'm not sure that there *is* a trivial relationship between the two methods, but hopefully given the similarities between the various input meshes, we can come up with something respectable.



Transition changes in TS12 were:

LOD0 to LOD1 33%
LOD1 to LOD2 19%
LOD2 to LOD3 4%

Transition changes to T:ANE were:

LOD0 to LOD1 15%
LOD1 to LOD2 7.5%
LOD2 to LOD3 2%

As you can see the T:ANE results are about half of that of TS12. It's difficult to see how those numbers relate to the LM.TXT settings.


Meaning that we should approximately halve the transition distances for your test mesh in T:ANE?

How are other people finding this build? Do you each get similar results with your own meshes?

chris

andi06
July 15th, 2015, 09:54 AM
Meaning that we should approximately halve the transition distances for your test mesh in T:ANE?
I'm getting similar results to Paul although I haven't done any sums to back it up.

Supposing I have an asset using *.lm.txt which has been set up to work correctly in Tane and that asset is then moved into TS12. To get transitions to match I need to make the LOD scheme more aggressive in the TS12 version - on a quick test halving the values in the TS12 *.lm.txt feels about right.

whitepass
July 15th, 2015, 02:08 PM
I get about the same but I had a speedtree in view and they are off, the shadow dropped out and the leaves go very bright.

700

ianwoodmore
July 15th, 2015, 04:20 PM
Just had a BSOD 7 hours into Database Rebuild #2. This is a complete DLS maxi install, xferred from 77196, with 77241. This is the first BSOD on this machine since WIN 8 was released.

Temps were normal although I did see GPU#1 climb to 53 deg C before falling back to normal 34C. Two of four monitors were black at that time. CPU temps did not exceed 50 deg C and were normally in High 30s. Temps monitored with CoreTemp and EVGA Precision X16.

Once again memory commit has steadily built to ~40GB as observed in Resource Monitor. I've had to ensure page files on each drive were RAM 32GB plus to prevent an earlier Out of Memory occurrence. Hard Faults/sec increased. Memory Commit can be returned to more normal 1-1.5GB during CM operations by restart or cold boot of PC. After restart PC operation is normal. No viruses apparent so that's not a likely cause. I have also checked PC for dust buildup and clogged filters but this also not an issue.

Since build 77241 was released validation failed in that after Database Rebuild #1 I ended up with 70,000 faulty status. Inspection of assets indicated that majority were false as they could be cleared by OFE/Commit but not by View errors and defaults.
I tested this with several categories and was able to return to sanity in those categories using OFE/Commit progressively. However, I had to limit the size of batches to 200-400 assets rather than my normal 1,000+ as CPU core temps started to climb on larger. I did notice that as batch size increased PC was very laggy and TANE CM Commits took longer and longer giving impression that had frozen. Check of log showed that normal validation appeared to be proceeding albeit slowly.

In other respects 77241 is behaving nicely with good FPS in game, and I'm able to save game OK. The Preview viewer is already a favourite of mine and the continuing developments look promising.

I still have the issue reported several builds ago that Route Menu will not show any entries because I have too many routes for your current code. I can access routes and menus through CM.

Umh! nVidia display driver just dropped out and recovered on starting TANE. Currently using 353.30. This machine is still WIN 8.1 Pro Update.

ianwoodmore
July 15th, 2015, 07:46 PM
CM auto validation finally finished after another four hours, and I appear to be back to normal. The 50,000 extra false assets notifications disappeared. Similar number of warnings disappeared.
TANE has settled to 11% CPU max while downloading from DLS at 475KB/sec in NZ. I'm still on ADSL broadband in 15kbps service area. Applied for 200Mbps fibre the other day, but have to get consent of neighbours as have a shared driveway/private rd.
Memory Commit now at 2GB during download.

The black screens above, display driver dropout and recovery, and possibly BSOD were most likely associated with the latest nVidia build 353.30. Not quite sure when it installed with all the fracas of the last 48 hours. Just seems suspicious that like back in early TS12 days we had similar problems when Trainz was/is loaded.

Assuming I am not the only one and from forum posts it would appear not, there is still a priority need to reduce Memory Commit max during database rebuild, and particularly CM Commit. Very few Trainzers will have ability to survive these massive commits without dropout.

WindWalkr
July 15th, 2015, 08:24 PM
Once again memory commit has steadily built to ~40GB as observed in Resource Monitor.

Keep your eyes open on this one. It's entirely possible that these dev builds have memory leaks since we haven't done any testing for that class of issues yet, but it would be good to know if this is an isolated event or reproducible for a given set of steps.

chris

pcas1986
July 15th, 2015, 08:52 PM
...
Meaning that we should approximately halve the transition distances for your test mesh in T:ANE?

...

chris

I guess that would maintain compatibility with TS12 assets. This particular asset is still under development and I expect to release it with a T:ANE build number. But I have other TS12 assets that I would like to validate against 4.2 standards although leaving the release build as 3.7.

martinvk
July 15th, 2015, 10:01 PM
Made a quick LOD test sphere 20m diameter and placed it in TANE 77241

LOD0 960 polys Red
LOD1 224 polys Green
LOD2 48 polys Blue
LOD3 8 polys Black (not shown)

transition distances and % of screen width
LOD0 to LOD1 60m @ 25%
LOD1 to LOD2 110m @ 13%
LOD2 to LOD3 264m @ 6%

Screen 1900 x 1200
partial screen shot
701

JCitron
July 15th, 2015, 10:35 PM
CM auto validation finally finished after another four hours, and I appear to be back to normal. The 50,000 extra false assets notifications disappeared. Similar number of warnings disappeared.
TANE has settled to 11% CPU max while downloading from DLS at 475KB/sec in NZ. I'm still on ADSL broadband in 15kbps service area. Applied for 200Mbps fibre the other day, but have to get consent of neighbours as have a shared driveway/private rd.
Memory Commit now at 2GB during download.

The black screens above, display driver dropout and recovery, and possibly BSOD were most likely associated with the latest nVidia build 353.30. Not quite sure when it installed with all the fracas of the last 48 hours. Just seems suspicious that like back in early TS12 days we had similar problems when Trainz was/is loaded.

Assuming I am not the only one and from forum posts it would appear not, there is still a priority need to reduce Memory Commit max during database rebuild, and particularly CM Commit. Very few Trainzers will have ability to survive these massive commits without dropout.

I haven't had a chance to try a big commit to the test build myself as I need to install a blank disk, otherwise I don't have enough room. With the retail version, however, I faced a similar commit/crash. My solution was to increase my pagefile size 3x memory, or 98GB. This helped that, but caused poor system performance due to the extra slack in the page file. The NVidia driver 353.30 is not nice. Many people have had that issue and the current one, at least for Windows 10 is 353.50. You may look for that version, as it may be available for Windows 8.x now. With 353.50, I've only had one display crash, unlike before with numerous ones daily.

My test results in sessions have been similar to yours. I just need to confirm my numbers before I post them.

John

whitepass
July 16th, 2015, 09:29 AM
I get a crash when I save a new Session.

WindWalkr
July 16th, 2015, 06:36 PM
I get a crash when I save a new Session.

Reproducible? On all routes, including a new route, or just on a specific route?

chris

whitepass
July 17th, 2015, 10:56 AM
Could not get it to today, yesterday had it two times on a new test map.