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View Full Version : Will T:ANE and DRM, make, or break, N3V ?



cascaderailroad
May 21st, 2015, 04:44 PM
N3V is making enemies of it's paying customers by using invasive DRM directly pointed against their paying customers, many long time loyal customers want their money refunded.

N3V is setting itself up for bankruptcy over the issues of using DRM, which is directly aimed only against their paying customers, threatening to lock them out, if N3V decides to ... instead of aiming the DRM at hackers.

N3V is punishing it's paying customers by checking up on them, and double checking them each and every 30 days with DRM, and disabling DLC assets, and disabling the game, should they decide to.

So in essence, if you are not revalidated each and every 30 days, you are locked out, and are labeled a hacker.

Sooner or later some smart lawyer will take N3V to Court, and win the case, and shut N3V down.

You buy a DLC asset, but you get no asset file to save ... Instead N3V elects that they themselves will "kindly" install the asset "for you", when you start the game.
Every 30 days N3V checks, and rechecks, the DLC asset, and the Trainz game, and if they decide to, they shut the game down, and disable the asset, that you paid good money for.

DRM is bad business practice, and someday someone is going to sue N3V ... and we will all lose, the DLS, N3V support, and lose all the assets, as well as lose the entire Trainz game ... All because N3V is punishing it's paying customers by using DRM, and every 30 days checking up on legal users, paying customers who have a valid Trainz registration code(s), and have valid DLC assets registration code(s), valid paying customers who paid hard earned money for the game, who paid hard earned cash for the DLC assets.

If we have valid registration code(s), for the game, and a valid registration code(s) for all the DLC assets ... Why does N3V have to check up on us loyal, legally paying, customers, and keep rechecking it's valid paying customers each and every 30 days, punishing them by shutting off service to the Game and disabling the DLC assets, if they decide to ?

People who buy a game, and people who buy DLC assets, tend not to re-sell those things that they paid money for, and rarely give their paid assets away for free.

Bit Torrent hackers, were already pirating the Trainz game on, and before, 5-15-2015, and they are cracking all the Game, and DLC, coding, and are giving, the game, and DLC assets, away for free.

When you design a fail-safe high security bank, and tell people that they can't possibly get in, someday, some wise guys, will break into the bank and steal the contents.

When you put a DRM value on the game, and the DLC assets, and punish your paying customers with DRM ... hackers, and crackers get wind of this, and this gives them a challenge, and incentive to break into the bank, and cause sabotage to the servers.

Some people have nothing better to do in (several unnamed) foreign Countries, than to sit around and hack, and crack, games, and to sabotage servers, and destroy databases.

And this invasive DRM usage upon N3V's loyal, paying, Trainz customers, is fueling a worldwide hacking, cracking, and sabotaging, ring of computer nerds, bent on ruining Trainz.

Why punish your loyal paying customers by using DRM against your customers who have many valid registration code(s) for all their legally bought Trainz game(s), and legally bought DLC assets ?

And when N3V shuts it's doors, all your DLC assets evaporate into thin air, and because the N3V servers are no longer there to validate, and re-validate your game, and validate your DLC assets ... everything goes away !

It just doesn't make any sense, nor is it good business, to set out to directly punish your loyal paying customers ... all the while, hackers, and crackers, easily break in, and penetrate N3V security ! The DRM should be aimed only at keeping hackers, and pirates out ... but instead it is aimed at loyal, paying customers.

Again: I don't know why N3V DRM is so very pointed towards it's loyal paying customers ... It should be aimed at keeping hackers, and crackers out ... instead it is aimed only at N3V valid customers.

If our Trainz registration codes were officially validated once at N3V, when we registered the legal game ... why does it need constant revalidation, again ?

Will this be the last Trainz version ? DRM may decide that !

And too, some long time loyal paying Trainz customers are losing interest in T:ANE, because of all it's flaws, in a prematurely released, unfinished, mess of a game.

alexl102
May 21st, 2015, 04:54 PM
I suppose N3V's move to DRM is excersizing their right to protect their intellectual property.

Sourdough
May 21st, 2015, 05:45 PM
No, I don't think it will make or break them. The doomsayers have pitched this song and dance every time a new version comes out. They are a minority who can't comprehend or accept that they are a minority.....they spend incredible amounts of time writing out these long rhetorical rants based on nothing more than facts and speculations brewed up in their own minds....they've lost their focus. Eventually,they will all either opt in or out....

railventure
May 21st, 2015, 06:05 PM
Well i would have bought the game anyway it is just the way they went about it that annoys me.

JCitron
May 21st, 2015, 06:29 PM
I doubt it...

Remember we've been through this with other software, even games for that matter. The system we have is least intrusive regarding DRM. I've seen no drop in performance in game. So let's keep things in perspective...

We could go back to dongles. That was the most secure software system until some pirates made cracks for that too, but overall worked fine until there was a bit of static electricity...

Or... how about disks with holes... wait we no longer have floppy drives

Or... A phone call plus serial number plus dongle and online validation, and disk. That was the system used by Digital Element and Discreet. It was awful reinstalling and I dreaded doing that.

Then there's one where the installed software is tied to the user account plus the MAC address for the network card (NIC). Change out something and the software has to be reauthorized. Pro/Engineer has this setup. Some versions also used a dongle on top of that. This is/was awful to configure too. If the machine was configured to a user and that person left, then the software had to be reauthorized, reinstalled, and reconfigured all over again. This usually takes an expert familiar with the connecting database server and all the little details to configure the software.

There are those user manual lookup things... We have a paper wheel in a wheel that refers to page... Wait we don't have user manuals anymore.

Or... SecuROM or some other background process to lag the computer while you're playing the game and when you don't.

Or... Some background daemon, fileserver, software which not only runs in the background all the time it also goes out to the master server to verify your serial number, dongle, and NIC MAC address.

Then there's keep the disk in the drive, but many computers no longer have DVD drives so people rely on downloads.


To put it into perspective, the DRM software connection is no different than having a disk in the drive before the game starts even if the game doesn't use the disk.

The problem is all these systems can be cracked. Sure they prevent the casual user from sharing, but pirates will always find a way. In the broad view this is probably the same as putting locks on the doors. The average kid in the neighborhood will jiggle the door knob, but a thief will break the window to get in. This has always been the case and always will no matter what a company or individual does to protect their investment and hard work whether it's a physical locked gate or door, or software protection in the form of DRM.

iannz
May 21st, 2015, 07:06 PM
I doubt DRM even affects the majority of players and it doesn't interfere when playing the game. Most users are online and as it validates in the background, I doubt they will even be aware of it nor care.

Apart from the few users who have a genuine concern due to their gaming computer not having access to the internet (regardless of choice), why is this even an issue?


Sorry OP, I think you are way over exaggerating the entire DRM thing, you are scare-mongering and some of your comments are not just misleading, but downright false.

cascaderailroad
May 21st, 2015, 07:28 PM
OK ... Disconnect your PC from the internet for 33 days when playing Trainz ... all your DLC will disappear, No Aerotrain ... No Ocemy DLC ... NO NKP Berkshire ... NO JR DLC purchased from SimCentral ... etc ... Then tell me how you game runs after 34 days ... That is how it will be when N3V goes under, and DRM servers can not be contacted, and the DLS displays: "Sorry: Can Not Connect, Webpage Unavailable"

Call me a: Scaremonger .. I am a for: REAL monger

That is how it will be when N3V goes under and no longer exists

N3V servers will someday, not exist ... that may be 10 years from now, or in the very near future ... if sales plummet.

Someday even Steam may not exist ... tell me how all your games run when that happens ?

Say the N3V servers go down for a week, or 10 days, or you are in KY and there is a winter ice storm and internet is cut off for 2 weeks, or you are in NZ and there is some long term internet severing event, or your Pop gets injured or laid off from work and the internet provider can not be paid for six months ... All your stuff will be "cut off" ... but you will still be able to hook up the Atari - Missile Command, or Pong ... you can still play that, or Monopoly board game !

iannz
May 21st, 2015, 08:02 PM
OK ... Disconnect your PC from the internet for 33 days when playing Trainz ... all your DLC will disappear, No Aerotrain ... No Ocemy DLC ... NO NKP Berkshire ... NO JR DLC purchased from SimCentral ... etc ... Then tell me how you game runs after 34 days ... That is how it will be when N3V goes under, and DRM servers can not be contacted, and the DLS displays: "Sorry: Can Not Connect, Webpage Unavailable"

Call me a: Scaremonger .. I am a for: REAL monger

That is how it will be when N3V goes under and no longer exists

N3V servers will someday, not exist ... that may be 10 years from now, or in the very near future ... if sales plummet.

Someday even Steam may not exist ... tell me how all your games run when that happens ?But why would I want to disconnect it for 33 days or even 1 day, its no good to me disconnected, I cant download stuff from the DLC for Trainz or for that matter keep my AV up to date, Windows patched or anything else.

Sorry, the rest of what you wrote is getting ridicules. Like "don't buy a car now, because one day, you wont get parts for it to fix it, it might be 10 years from now or 100yrs. And if you do, make sure its electric, because you wont get oil and petrol in 50yrs time".

In 10 years of even 5 years, I'll expect I'll be using a different version of trainz (if Im even still alive then, who knows, I may get killed crossing the street tomorrow by a car driven by a maniac on his mobile phone) which may register itself without the use of DRM. Who knows? Not me, you or N3V at this time. When you bought TRS2004, did you expect it to last forever, if so, why have you bought newer versions.

Using your analogy, there wouldn't be any games and gaming companies would exist because no one would buy them in fear that one day they might not work.

oknotsen
May 21st, 2015, 08:08 PM
The thing is: they are not your game. You effectively only have usage rights.

The OP is just guessing about things he acts as if they are facts. A handful of old users make a lot of noise about leaving, but are they really (and if so what are they still here making noise about?). Check your license and the definition of DRM. Get some actual facts. Till that time, this topic is a waste of bytes.

cascaderailroad
May 21st, 2015, 08:12 PM
The fact is: They are controlling what, you want to play, and cutting you off, when they want to cut you off ... which is a violation of your "Rights" ...but then again ... Nobody even cares when your: Rights" are trampled upon.

Suck up to "Big Brother" and then defend him, when your "Rights" are trampled upon.

"Rights" ? ... You HAVE no froggin' "Rights", cause you "caved in" to "Big Brother"!

They revoked your "Paid" EULA license to run the game ... just because they wanted to revoke it !

But that's OK !

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2768/4107492509_a367f9a80e_o.jpg

mjolnir
May 21st, 2015, 08:38 PM
There is only one issue related to DRM that irritates me, and that is when payware was purchased without it, and it was imposed after the fact. This, in fact, happened to me with a couple of items I bought early on. They were payware at the time I purchased them directly from the vendors, and DRM was appended to them after my purchase, but getting locked out of these items is not a major issue to me, because the reasons motivating my purchase no longer apply.

And I do understand the reason for adopting DRM. Simply put, it's the fact that Trainz is such a multinational community of users that knowing what IP laws apply might be very difficult to determine. Consider the case of Ocemy: a Chinese citizen, whose payware is hosted on servers for the benefit of an entity domiciled in Australia, hosted on servers located at some unkown location in the world, purchased by a citizen of Canada, who is currently residing in, and using the software in the US. So I accept the fact that DRM is the more reasonable option over having to file suit in 5 jurisdictions just to determine in which jurisdiction the legal actions necessary to enforce IP laws should be filed.

Really, the solution to DRM is really trivially simple. Don't buy content which invokes it, and at the same time let the creators know that the reason that you're not purchasing a particular asset is because of DRM. If creators don't get the income because of DRM, it will cease being produced.

ns

cascaderailroad
May 21st, 2015, 08:49 PM
snip~ Really, the solution to DRM is really trivially simple. Don't buy content which invokes it, and at the same time let the creators know that the reason that you're not purchasing a particular asset is because of DRM. If creators don't get the income because of DRM, it will cease being produced.ns
I tried that 9 years ago ... I stopped driving and purchasing gasoline, except when absolutely needed, all the while the droves of blithering idiots, just gave birth to more kids, who had more kids, who put 7 zillion more cars on the roads, while I sat inside playing Trainz ... My effort just didn't matter at all ... WC Fields: "There is a "Sucker" born every minute" !

Tony_Hilliam
May 21st, 2015, 08:52 PM
We don't need yet another DRM thread as it has been discussed endlessly (literally ...)
We have different views and that is the end of it.
It is up to each customer to make their mind up whether to purchase a product or not.
Thread closed