PDA

View Full Version : So the itch is unbearable....



rivethed
September 17th, 2014, 10:24 AM
and I need to try to scratch it..... looking for anyone who has the free time (does that exist in this hobby, or life these days)... I do not have transdem, and not looking to acquire it for a one time use. Anyone Have Transdem and willing to make some baseboards? I have the elevation, dem(?), topo and one other kind of data set (not on this pc so cannot remember the type) all from the USGS map site. or maybe someone has already basboarded the area I am interested in? Longbeach and LA harbors up to both BNSF and UP intermodal yards in City of Commerce (L.A., Ca areas).

thanks in advance.

Riv

cascaderailroad
September 17th, 2014, 11:29 AM
If someone created all the wanted DEM's for people wanting a DEM, using Transdem, then the creators of Transdem would go out of business, and sales would drop off.

As Transdem costs @ $35 ... I propose that all persons wanting a free DEM be charged $35 ... and the proceeds go to the creator of Transdem

Vern
September 17th, 2014, 11:53 AM
Always amuses me, this type of OP. People have spent out the money to buy Trainz, the PC hardware capable of running it, maintain a persistent internet connection to conduct "research" or post on forums, yet can't spare a small amount of pocket change for one of the best Trainz utilities out there! :)

cascaderailroad
September 17th, 2014, 12:29 PM
Some people lack the patience and skiils to master Transdem ... it is NOT a fully automatic program that creates DEM's for you ... You have to download a DEM, as well as download dozens, or hundreds of maps, and georefernce co-ordinants on all the dozens or hundreds of maps "manually", then trace in all the lines for roads, rivers, and RR's, all manually by hand ... most people who lack the skills would give up, and the program would be worthless to them !

I propose that the distributors of Transdem, do custom DEM's for a charge of $35 per DEM

martinvk
September 17th, 2014, 12:55 PM
Now there is an idea. Perhaps Transdem could license someone or do it themselves for a sliding fee (per baseboard) : highest fee if only a location is provided to lowest fee if all required data is provided. Transdem is funded to make improvements and Trainzers get the route maps they want.

Falcus
September 17th, 2014, 01:22 PM
Before the Gripe Fest Continues.....

@ The OP:
Look up an Author called "Fishlipsatwork". Up to about 5 years ago or so he was known for randomly posting, apparently at random, DEM Maps with HOGZ Textures ready to be done up in Trainz. Many of them are still on the DLS. He uploaded maps from all over the place. I have no Idea if he did the area you're looking for, and if he did I promise 2 things:
1: It won't be the exact area you specified, but MIGHT at least include it
2:It WILL be out of date. By at least half a decade, probably more. But it WILL have the Topography done, so as long as you're familiar with the area, you can adjust for it.

Good Luck,
Falcus

2995Valliant
September 17th, 2014, 01:31 PM
Speaking from experience (having created a couple of dem maps for people free of charge some years ago) I'd say that if someone doesn't have the commitment to buy the software and learn how to use it in the first place, they won't have the commitment to finish the route even after someone else has put a good few hours into for them in the first place.

rivethed
September 17th, 2014, 02:04 PM
Falcus, thanks, one constructive answer out of 6 so far. I will look into your suggestion.

Cascaderailroad, do not recall saying I had a problem paying:

http://050109.com/uploads/transdem.jpg
As for the rest, "I find it amusing..." how alot of people like playing forum warriors instead just helping out by answering the questions. I do not need to justify the why's, suffice it to say they are enough to keep me from learning another application this quarter. If you cannot offer help, l please move along. Trainz is a hobby, not a job. My PC that runs Trainz, is set up for other tasks, so trainz leeches of my setup, not my setup was made for trainz.

Would any of you go spend 500USD on a bearing press, for one bearing? or would you go seek the help of someone who A) has done it many times and has the Press already?

You go to those who know.... if it becomes more than just a simple one time deal, then you invest in the knowledge and tools (like doing proper brake jobs, timing, OBD][ code extraction, etc.)

cascaderailroad
September 17th, 2014, 02:44 PM
Seeing that you have the program now, I would like you to inform us on how easy the new Transdem version is ... over that of the "Old Transdem Version".

I got about 75% learned of the "Old Version", and was having a tough time with getting through the learning curve, then my disc space became critically low, and I put the program away, in mothballs.

If you have any questions, PM me ... I may be able to help you understand the program a little bit.

Falcus
September 17th, 2014, 09:20 PM
I like how a simple Yes or No question, which doesn't even beg a response from negatively or uninterested parties, draws so much attention for people to wax philosophical.....

I could reply in kind, but honestly, its not my thread, and its not really worth the time.... This is one Trainz User that never requested a TransDem, managed to get one free anyway, and a year later is still tinkering with it.....

Good Luck on your route, and I'll be back if I feel I can add any more constructiveness to any line of query I feel sufficiently able to respond to,
Falcus

JCitron
September 18th, 2014, 12:44 AM
Rivet Head...

As someone who has made, DEM routes, I can say that it is very difficult creating something for someone else. It has nothing to do with personal preference, or willingness to do it. The amount of data downloaded today versus years ago. In the past we could download a postage stamp size of data from the National Map Server. This was great for patches and tiny route projects. In the past, I took data and made small sections I included in my long time project route I've been working on since at least early 2004 in one form or another. It was great, a city area, a few hills off the New Hampshire coast, etc.

Today, this is different. The base data file, which could be as small as a few megabytes, is now a 1 arc-second slice, and are quite huge. A recent one I downloaded was nearly 500 MB compressed, and substantially bigger uncompressed. This did not include the map images which come later. These can add up pretty fast, and if you go the historical topo map route, they can be quite large as well.

The second part is what do you want versus what I have downloaded. Since it is quite difficult manipulating the data in Trainz due to the size of the files, once imported, they need to be trimmed down to a reasonable size that TS12 will handle. I have had CM crash when consuming some rather large TD-created routes, so rather than crash things, which isn't nice, I trim a lot, and merge the parts together afterwards. It takes some extra steps, but this helps. But anyway, what would you need versus what I have, then becomes another ball of wax.

So having said this, I'm glad you have joined the TD crowd. You'll never look at a hand-sculpted route, or sculpt anything manually again! We can help you should you have difficulties with the program. The learning curve is steep but quite doable.

John

cascaderailroad
September 18th, 2014, 06:44 AM
Most probably if one was doing a huge chunk of Pennsylvania, a massive DEM from Phila to Pittsburgh ... It would be best to create 8 separate iPortal route segments, each one @ 100 miles or less.

Phila to Reading
Phila to Harrisburg
Harrisburg to Mount Union
Harrisburg to Williamsport
Williamsport to Tyrone/Kane
Mount Union to Johnstown
Altoona to Philipsburg/Milesburg
Johnstown to Pittsburgh

@ JCitron:
Would it be safe to say that a low detailed DEM HOG DEM would be lower poly, vs an extremly high detailed DEM would adversely effect framerates dramatically due to the higher map detail ?

KenRuof
September 18th, 2014, 07:30 AM
I empathize with you rivethed, it is hard to find people who are willing to help but many who are over willing to be forums police and point fingers.

rivethed
September 18th, 2014, 02:42 PM
Thanks to those that offered advice, I have resolved to accept what would, could, and should be done. The itch persists.

cascaderailroad
September 18th, 2014, 02:57 PM
Try calamine lotion, or anti itch cream :hehe:

It shouldn't be too difficult to master Transdem.

The real hard part is laying tracks on a DEM, a real rollercoaster ... up 6.75% down 10.50% ... Ironing out all the gradients will drive one crazy

rivethed
September 18th, 2014, 03:31 PM
had experience with this while merging layouts of disimilar elevation to fulfill a different itch (Indie wasteland 2012, sogo docks and bnsf lincoln yard). not fun, but was a crash course on using surveyor tools.

JCitron
September 18th, 2014, 03:54 PM
Most probably if one was doing a huge chunk of Pennsylvania, a massive DEM from Phila to Pittsburgh ... It would be best to create 8 separate iPortal route segments, each one @ 100 miles or less.

Phila to Reading
Phila to Harrisburg
Harrisburg to Mount Union
Harrisburg to Williamsport
Williamsport to Tyrone/Kane
Mount Union to Johnstown
Altoona to Philipsburg/Milesburg
Johnstown to Pittsburgh

@ JCitron:
Would it be safe to say that a low detailed DEM HOG DEM would be lower poly, vs an extremly high detailed DEM would adversely effect framerates dramatically due to the higher map detail ?

This does impact framerates but also the quality of the terrain, but a lot less than one would expect. The old HOG generated DEMs are only 1-meter (10-meter) resolution where as the more recent downloads from NED are the 1/3 Arc-second which works out to higher resolution, and more like the 5meter grid. The trade off is there is better details, and fidelity for better terrain in many places. This I found very important in my area where there was a conflict with buildings and the hills. I found with the older HOG-type terrain, I lost the height and the 15-meter railroad grade completely disappeared with the street below and the buildings near it. I ended up using the higher resolution terrain and now there is a difference and height which made a great difference in modeling everything else. The 1/9 arc-second grid is even higher, with much, much bigger files too.

The thing is you need to play around with what is going to work. Try the different resolutions and pick and choose what works best for your needs.

John

mikeaust
September 18th, 2014, 08:08 PM
The simple way around the height problem is to have the different routes in the same route but not connected physically. Then just use portals to move from one to the other.
In 2010 I ran with up to 6 different routes merged into 1 but all separate from the others.

I am looking at the Long Beach area as well but it would be a massive job the make it in Trainz.
cheers,
Mike

Falcus
September 18th, 2014, 10:45 PM
The DEM I'm working on is an older one. There are definitely Elevation discrepancies. But I know the area well enough I'm working around alot of it (And there are 11 MAJOR hills in this city, of which I get to work around, over, or through at least 7 or so). I'd love to see a newer higher quality DEM of the area, but, if the attitudes here are anything to go by..... Anyway, point being, there is room to work with things if you're creative enough to solve it on your own and less then perfection is acceptable....

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a530/Raevenon/Falcus_20140913_0001_zps64a64e1f.jpg (http://s1282.photobucket.com/user/Raevenon/media/Falcus_20140913_0001_zps64a64e1f.jpg.html)

Edited to add: Probably the biggest challenge I'm facing atm is how the Older Style DEM did the water. The elvation for it is way off, and I'm having to re-grade pretty much anywhere there's water, of which there is alot.

Falcus

JCitron
September 18th, 2014, 11:26 PM
Nice route there, Falcus.

My issue was similar with buildings and hills blending right into the raised railroad grade. Unfortunately, I'm not using my desktop computer. I lost my video card yesterday so I am unable to post a screen capture, but here is a Bing view...

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=42.773927~-71.085830&lvl=16&sty=x~lat~42.773927~lon~-71.08583~alt~-15.465~z~30~h~215.7~p~-1~pid~5082&app=5082&FORM=LMLTCC

This isn't quite the same as your area, but this grade was completely blended into the street below, making the lower resolution DEM useless. I tried working with it and ended up ditching my work because as I adjusted one thing, it found others that were way out too. It was quite frustrating.

If I had been able to show you my route pictures, I could show you across the Merrimack River which shows the hills along the valley and the rail bridge.

John

Falcus
September 19th, 2014, 12:50 AM
http://goo.gl/maps/cgKLw

Thats roughly (+ or - 10-15 Feet) the same shot in reality. Notice the lack of Sky scrapers... At a loss as to what Im gonna do there atm.... I do have a Smith Tower (White Narrow Pointy one on the left side of the link of this post), but thats the only one that I've found I'm really happy with. I'm still working the placement and Height of some things, not to mention still dropping assets like crazy, but still....

Falcus

JCitron
September 19th, 2014, 09:58 AM
http://goo.gl/maps/cgKLw

Thats roughly (+ or - 10-15 Feet) the same shot in reality. Notice the lack of Sky scrapers... At a loss as to what Im gonna do there atm.... I do have a Smith Tower (White Narrow Pointy one on the left side of the link of this post), but thats the only one that I've found I'm really happy with. I'm still working the placement and Height of some things, not to mention still dropping assets like crazy, but still....

Falcus

It is 15 feet, well 14.7 according to Google Earth. We don't have skyscrapers up in Haverhill. They all got torn down during the 1970s - just kidding! We only had a bunch of old shoe factories which are now loft apartments and condos now. It's still a tough area to get right because of everything blending together, and being New England everything is very close together. By using a finer resolution, I was able to get the ground difference which made the grade stand out and I then put in the station and tracks. I also lack the actual buildings for that location so I'm winging it for my own use. The once glorious station is long gone now; just a couple of platforms and a parking lot. Our friend jcaena made some awesome buildings including some big stations which I found useful for the area. It's not the same, but it works.

Kphm