PDA

View Full Version : This Needs to Stop



chris2001trainz2010
August 23rd, 2014, 08:09 AM
Hello, all. A very angry Chris here.

Okay, I am forced to manually shut down Content Manager A LOT. Every so often it freezes for unknown reasons, so I just close it down using Task Manager. Then, upon restart, CM will not apply my search filter. I just get a white background with "Please Wait..." near the top. So i close it down, this time taking TADDaemon with it. I restart Trainz, click on Content to open CM so that TADDaemon won't have to keep reloading, and CM comes up with no problem, like nothing ever happened.

Now, whenever I am forced to close CM and TAD, I am greeted with the completely original DATABASE UPDATE. Now I know that closing Trainz through TM will cause this, but this only started happening around the beginning of August. This never happened before that with TS12, TS10, OR TS06. Why (all of a sudden) am I getting this STUPID window that prevents me from playing my only working computer game?!? This is sad, even compared to Railworks (NOT FAILWORKS) taking forever to install by itself, and MSTS being so unstable for todays software that you can only play with the built-in stuff, or the stuff other people have made through downloads. Come on, N3V, this need to stop. And now, I even have Rail Simulator, the FIRST GAME IN THE RAILWORKS SERIES, sitting right here, ready to be installed.

Sincerely,

ryanstrains
August 23rd, 2014, 08:36 AM
Your problems are being caused by your own actions, force closing TAD and CMP will cause an improper shutdown of the database, resulting in a database rebuild next load. If it freezes for a bit, its more than likely because its trying to sort out all the content database pieces.

chris2001trainz2010
August 23rd, 2014, 08:42 AM
Again, this only started happening around the beginning of August. Before that, i could close it down forcefully with no database repairs.

norfolksouthern37
August 23rd, 2014, 08:53 AM
dont force it closed, just wait. by doing that you will destroy the database.

paulhobbs
August 23rd, 2014, 09:05 AM
Nobody is forcing you to kill the content manager when it is working and I don't see what N3V could do to stop you doing daft things with it.

'not responding' does not mean it has crashed.

Paul

johnwhelan
August 23rd, 2014, 09:51 AM
Hello, all. A very angry Chris here.

Okay, I am forced to manually shut down Content Manager A LOT. Every so often it freezes for unknown reasons, so I just close it down using Task Manager. Then, upon restart, CM will not apply my search filter. I just get a white background with "Please Wait..." near the top. So i close it down, this time taking TADDaemon with it. I restart Trainz, click on Content to open CM so that TADDaemon won't have to keep reloading, and CM comes up with no problem, like nothing ever happened.

Now, whenever I am forced to close CM and TAD, I am greeted with the completely original DATABASE UPDATE. Now I know that closing Trainz through TM will cause this, but this only started happening around the beginning of August. This never happened before that with TS12, TS10, OR TS06. Why (all of a sudden) am I getting this STUPID window that prevents me from playing my only working computer game?!? This is sad, even compared to Railworks (NOT FAILWORKS) taking forever to install by itself, and MSTS being so unstable for todays software that you can only play with the built-in stuff, or the stuff other people have made through downloads. Come on, N3V, this need to stop. And now, I even have Rail Simulator, the FIRST GAME IN THE RAILWORKS SERIES, sitting right here, ready to be installed.

Sincerely,

Often Trainz has rather a large number of assets and can appear to be none responsive when in fact it is doing something. Right click the task bar and start task manager. Look under processes and you'll see cpu being used etc. One one machine I've seen Trainz mulling for three days but that was unusual but I'd tend to let it run a full repair overnight and it should sort itself out.

Cheerio John

Vern
August 23rd, 2014, 11:55 AM
Sorry to say but in 61388 it *does* freeze and repeatedly so, you know it is "game over" if you have tried to scroll the list or add another item to the pick list and the screen clouds over with a white haze. At that point the only option is Ctrl-Alt-Del to clear down CMP then into process manager to shut down TrainzUtil and TadDaemon which will run ad-infinitum if you don't. Happened to me on four separate occasions yesterday and I got so p...ed off with it, uninstalled 61388 (even though it meant losing a couple of WIP routes) and reinstalled back to 49922. This has been discussed at length a few times since 61388 arrived and I'm sure reported to the Helpdesk, but it has either been ignored, they don't know how to fix their own program or they're all too busy with TANE to give a fig about what will soon become "former customers" to take timeout and try to sort it with a small patch. Just try not to think these are the same guys who have been advanced a large sum of money with KS and now advance pre-orders, to program the forthcoming new Trainz... :)

paulhobbs
August 23rd, 2014, 12:02 PM
All Windows programs do this when Windows doesn't get a response when it polls the running programs. I've had this happen with lots of programs and usually just waiting results in the program continuing normally.

Paul

JCitron
August 23rd, 2014, 12:03 PM
Sorry to say but in 61388 it *does* freeze and repeatedly so, you know it is "game over" if you have tried to scroll the list or add another item to the pick list and the screen clouds over with a white haze. At that point the only option is Ctrl-Alt-Del to clear down CMP then into process manager to shut down TrainzUtil and TadDaemon which will run ad-infinitum if you don't. Happened to me on four separate occasions yesterday and I got so p...ed off with it, uninstalled 61388 (even though it meant losing a couple of WIP routes) and reinstalled back to 49922. This has been discussed at length a few times since 61388 arrived and I'm sure reported to the Helpdesk, but it has either been ignored, they don't know how to fix their own program or they're all too busy with TANE to give a fig about what will soon become "former customers" to take timeout and try to sort it with a small patch. Just try not to think these are the same guys who have been advanced a large sum of money with KS and now advance pre-orders, to program the forthcoming new Trainz... :)


I can't disagree with you on this, Vern. Many of us have both seen long non-responsive periods with the database. Sometimes just leaving it alone though does unfreeze it even when the screen has whitened over. I have noticed that usually TADDaemon is busy validating assets when this occurs along with TrainzUtil doing its Open, check, close routine. One this latter part lessens up, access to the menus is a bit better. Once the validation process completes, there's no problem it seems. My problem with this is there is no dialog box to the end-user. Instead we are stuck with a non-responsive program without knowing what's going on.

I agree the problem has become worse in 61388 and wonder what was done to do this. Perhaps someone tried to "tweak" something and only made things worse. Like a lot of people here, I am hoping these things will be addressed in T: ANE, but to tell you the truth, I'm not holding my breath too long.

John

chris2001trainz2010
August 23rd, 2014, 01:12 PM
I agree 100% with you guys. I know that it's gotten worse over time, but I'd have to imagine TANE will be the same way, problems and all.

clam1952
August 23rd, 2014, 01:19 PM
Actually Not responding is a very common problem with Windows, Leave it and eventually clears or if obsessed with getting rid of the message, Google HungAppTimeout. Default is 5000 milliseconds, that's 5 seconds before Windows says "hey it ain't working" Microsoft knows best..............

Try just just closing TadDaemon in processes, it should restart straight away having taken Trainzutil with it and clear the freeze. CM then stays alive.

Better still don't do any work in 61388, do it in 49922 and import it to HF4, it can cope with that!

I have task manager on the taskbar, no need for three fingered salutes.

Not got that much to play with in T:ANE yet however there is no sign of TadDaemon or it's little friend.

chris2001trainz2010
August 23rd, 2014, 01:22 PM
Try just just closing TadDaemon in processes, it should restart straight away having taken Trainzutil with it and clear the freeze. CM then stays alive.
Thanks Malc, i will try that next time.

paulhobbs
August 23rd, 2014, 01:26 PM
I agree 100% with you guys. I know that it's gotten worse over time, but I'd have to imagine TANE will be the same way, problems and all.
It's very likely to be the same in TANE because changing the software is not going to change your habits.

Paul

ianwoodmore
August 23rd, 2014, 01:53 PM
Instead of using the Launcher to start Game or Content, use the exe files in bin\

bin\contentmanager.exe

bin\trainz.exe

This avoids the infernal validation merry-go-round until you want to do it. Then let it do its own thing overnight.

Vern
August 23rd, 2014, 03:23 PM
I don't think it's a question of changing habits...
Fact - in 49922 and previous versions CMP never (or rarely) locked up with a whited out screen.
Fact - in 61388 it does, constantly and frequently. Ergo, N3V borked their programme.
I don't want to sit there for half an hour to wait and see if it suddenly starts working again but it is extremely irritating to have to sit through a database rebuild every b....y time the thing hangs and has to be terminated as it fairly obviously ain't coming back of its own accord.

The lock up seems to occur, in my experience, if you try and do anything else while CMP is running an installation stage rather than showing as downloading, so I guess one workaround is simply to leave things alone and work in small batches, but it is exactly that - a workaround - and not a solution to botched coding.

shaneturner12
August 23rd, 2014, 03:41 PM
Let's make one thing clear here.

It's not Trainz itself that's responsible for the freezing problems. It's actually (from my own experiences) caused by TrainzUtil, usually during validation or texture conversion. It's well known that large assets will take longer to validate than smaller ones though.

I have found that if TrainzUtil/TADDaemon have full access rights (i.e. running as administrator under Windows Vista and later) and that the Trainz folder(s) are not included in any on-access scans, it seems to improve things a bit. It's also worth making sure that any 'on-close' settings are turned off on the antivirus software to avoid issues when running Trainz.

And one more thing. No amount of coding is going to cure operator errors e.g. closing a process forcefully. Most technically minded people probably know that when a program stops responding in most cases, it's usually doing an intensive operation.

Shane

martinvk
August 23rd, 2014, 03:46 PM
Your fact perhaps but not mine. Haven't had the same experience with 61388. Installed once and never looked back. Doesn't crash and the occasional lock up because it is writing to the database only lasts a few seconds at most.

chris2001trainz2010
August 23rd, 2014, 03:49 PM
Well said, Vern.

martinvk
August 23rd, 2014, 03:49 PM
I agree 100% with you guys. I know that it's gotten worse over time, but I'd have to imagine TANE will be the same way, problems and all.How do you know this to be true? Do you know something about TANE that the rest of us don't?

shaneturner12
August 23rd, 2014, 03:54 PM
I'd like to know the answer to that as well, especially as he doesn't appear to have pledged for the game (which if that is true, he wouldn't have had access to the testing stages). As a TPC member, I've seen virtually all of it (the parts that are in the currently released testing builds) so far.

Shane

chris2001trainz2010
August 23rd, 2014, 04:33 PM
How do you know this to be true? Do you know something about TANE that the rest of us don't?
I'm not even a Beta-Tester. But, seeing as how N3V screwed up SP1, i'm a bit worried about the performance of TANE.

paulhobbs
August 23rd, 2014, 04:44 PM
I agree 100% with you guys. I know that it's gotten worse over time, but I'd have to imagine TANE will be the same way, problems and all.


I'm not even a Beta-Tester. But, seeing as how N3V screwed up SP1, i'm a bit worried about the performance of TANE.
Screwed up in the sense that it doesn't like you shooting it in the head when you get impatient?

Paul

SailorDan
August 23rd, 2014, 04:50 PM
Again, this only started happening around the beginning of August. Before that, i could close it down forcefully with no database repairs.

Then you need to look at what changed about the beginning of August. Did you instal some new software? Was there an update to the OS? Did you change the configuration of your anti-virus or was there an update? Is something now running in the background that wasn't running before? Have user or folder permissions changed? Has your internet connection changed - more brief dropouts, for instance?

When you find what changed you will know what to change back in order to restore things to what they were.

chris2001trainz2010
August 23rd, 2014, 04:54 PM
No dice, I didn't change anything.

shaneturner12
August 23rd, 2014, 04:59 PM
The only change I'm aware that you've made is installing DLC content. This quite often contains quite a few assets that have to be validated.

Shane

chris2001trainz2010
August 23rd, 2014, 05:02 PM
Oh, yeah, the Nickel Plate DLC. Wouldn't it be done validating it by now?

KenRuof
August 23rd, 2014, 05:32 PM
Start Trainz go to options then developer TAB click the box "show database process windows" you can then see what is going on. Most of the time it is a asset validation by the thousands!

Ron_Smith
August 23rd, 2014, 05:49 PM
Does this help ?
TADDaemon

GeneralTADDaemon.exe is found in the "bin" folder and comes from Trainz Asset Database Daemon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_%28computing%29). TADDaemon manages the database of all Trainz assets known to the installation. Trainz, Content Manager and other Trainz programs depend on it.
In addition to it's main task (maintaining the local database of Trainz assets), it is also responsible for asset validation, most internet communication, and other background tasks.
Technical DetailsTADDaemon must be allowed through firewall because it has to connect to the internet and to communicate with other Trainz Components.
TADDaemon will shut down when Trainz is not running. If Windows prompts to 'Wait' or 'End Task' while shutting down, choose to wait for TADDaemon to finish. Avoid using 'End Task' on TADDaemon, or it will likely need a database repair on the next start. Also avoid hard powering off the machine while TADDaemon is running, for the same reasons.

I'm no expert but it seems when one or two users are having trouble and the vast majority are satisfied with performance etc. how can it be the software at fault ?

Ron

JohnnyC1
August 23rd, 2014, 06:10 PM
Part of the problem is the amount of assets you have, try removing the unused stuff. It's either going to do a freeze via CMP or when you start the game when addind or deleting large amounts of data.


John

Vern
August 24th, 2014, 02:06 AM
I'm no expert but it seems when one or two users are having trouble and the vast majority are satisfied with performance etc. how can it be the software at fault ?


Given this issue has been discussed several times I think it's more than one or two users. The software is at fault because prior to SP1 CMP in 49922 ran impeccably. For people experiencing the fault in 61388 on exactly the same hardware that means *something* changed when N3V updated CMP and it no longer works reliably. Even if, as the N3V fanboys suggest, we are being terminally impatient and should wait for the white mist to dissipate and CMP to magically start working again, that's not how it was in 49922 or indeed with TS2009/TS2010 before.

We can debate this round in circles all day of course but I'd be quite interested in an official response from N3V with their view on the issue and whether it has been logged at Helpdesk. If not, then suggest all of us encountering the problem start sending in a report each and every time it happens in an effort to get them to take notice.

Ron_Smith
August 24th, 2014, 02:34 AM
Good Point and Good Luck !!

norfolksouthern37
August 24th, 2014, 10:56 AM
Given this issue has been discussed several times I think it's more than one or two users. The users are at fault because prior to SP1 CMP in 49922 ran exactly the same. For people not experiencing the fault in 61388 on exactly the same hardware that means *something* changed when N3V updated CMP or it wouldn't be an update. Even if, as the N3V naysayers suggest, we are lying vehemently and something was purposely changed in CMP to magically stop working for only a few people, that's exactly how it was in 49922 or indeed with TS2009/TS2010 before.


Do I really think that? No, not 100%. Do you sound that ridiculous? Very much so.


Quite possibly I would be violating some NDA, but if it satisfies you people it is worth it. TANE CM has a nice large 'load circle (https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS544US544&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=load%20circle&safe=off)' that spins around letting you know when it is busy working.

Note: Please keep in mind I am not advocating that there are no problems and everything works perfectly and all rainbows and unicorns, but I find continual 'conspiracy with malicious intent' posts to be annoying at best.

JCitron
August 24th, 2014, 11:05 AM
I'd like to say something regarding this mess, again.

I am one of those victims of validations and have been for some time. I have, however, discovered that there are numerous causes to this and in part this I my own doings, hardware related and version related.

1) TS12 SP1 HF4, aka 61388....

There definitely has been a change somehow in the database management. I feel that this logic is more sensitive to updates and content handling, and triggers a validation sequence whenever something is done with content.

I have seen this when opening and closing content for edit, installing new content via CDPs, adding in the old JA files from TRS2010 and TRS2009, and removing obsolete items.

2) A failing hard disk or other computer component which causes the system to burp.

Recently, I've had a to replace a hard drive. The drive wouldn't start one day, and prior to that there were bouts of just slow performance. No diagnostics on the drive showed errors, and even SMART reported everything was fine, however, a start the next day was nothing more than clicking and buzzing! This drive happened to be the one where I had my active Trainz install running! I was able to restore, however, I had some corruption without knowing it that didn't show up until I was copying the data back from the backup device to my internal hard drive.

I also had an odd situation with a BIOS issue and large hard drives that would remove a hard drive from active status when the drive is under load. This happened to have been a drive that I had Trainz installed on. This also caused lots of corrupted assets.

3) Installing CDPs...

Whenever installing CDPs, such as content from Jointed Rail, a very lengthy period of validations occur. I've seen upwards of 48,000 items at a time being revalidated and this process takes about 4-5 hours at 0.75 seconds per validation, and doesn't include the added "write to database".

4) Opening assets for edit...

Related to some data corruption, I have a route that crashes and in the process of checking assets, I opened some for edit. There were some that couldn't be read, which I suspected and the very process of opening these up and then committing triggered the validation, and a big one too. I replaced about 20 corrupted items, which I think go back to the bad hard drive still, and ended up deleting and redownloading or installing them from backups. Opening the corrupted data, by the way, caused CM to lockup completely, white screen ghosting, however TADD was doing its thing in the background. At one point I ended up killing CM, but not TADD and restarted CM again without problems. After the restart, I shut it down normally and let TADD close when it was done validating and received the queue request to shutdown. After that I started CM again, and the validation process proceeded where it left off and CM was laggy as expected.

5) Old version JA files...

Due to some old routes I wanted to work on, some of which date back to my earlier forays of route building, I needed to install my built-in content files from TRS2009 and TRS2010.

This install, plus the ensuing EDR, caused a major revalidation which took upwards of 12 hours. The numbers were in the 100,000 range.

I would like to add that when this kicks in, nothing is usable. The menus in Trainz TS12 its self are slow to react as CM/TADD/TrainzUtil are eating up the resources. This explains the very bad performance and the lock ups in game. The CPU and disk system is busy with the validating and will eventually release some resources to other tasks, however, it's main focus is the validation process.


What can we do?

View the database processes. Set this up in the options off of the launcher as this gives you the opportunity to see what is going on, and why the performance is horrible. If a validation process kicks in, let it finish. Find something else to do otherwise the program performance is zilch.

Thoughts and conclusion

I agree that something has changed with the logic, as I mentioned above when the service pack is in place. Hopefully the developers will look at this during T: ANE development and we'll see a more efficient data handling component in the program.

John

pdkoester
August 24th, 2014, 12:23 PM
I have alleviated this by making sure that exception for the folder I installed on is defined in antivirus, software protection, etc. Also, installation in a root folder, not the default, seems to help things. I actually went one step further, separate partition on SSD. In the last 6 months, one time it had to do database audit, QDR, with no impact on anything.

Paul

gearhead2578
August 24th, 2014, 02:00 PM
Couldn't help adding my $0.02 here. Most of you guys that posted here have been around Trainz as long or longer than me, I see John, Justin, Ron, Shane...the usual suspects (I waited a year to come back to forums after the big crash of '06). Remember CMP? what was the Plus? Plus headaches? Plus a big hammer for smashing the keyboard out of frustration? We've come a long way since then. Content Mangler is like an old man, it doesn't move very fast - and when it does move, you have to have patience. Either way, it's better than it used to be and 99% of the time runs great if you leave it alone and let it do its thing. Go get a cup of coffee, see what the family looks like today, whatever - just have patience. Maybe it's easier said than done for some of the younger folks, seems like today the world is tailored to their instant gratification lifestyle. But then again, my phone still plugs in the wall....

Mike

shaneturner12
August 24th, 2014, 03:14 PM
Yep - I definitely remember CMP. To be honest, at least in TRS2006 pre-SP1, that was a lot worse than what TS12's Content Manager is like now. Sure TS12's one likes to freeze at annoying times, but it's better than it being unstable and crashing (kind of like what TRS2006 did to me quite often in the form of Fatal Errors).

Shane

Fabartus
August 24th, 2014, 03:26 PM
Again, this only started happening around the beginning of August. Before that, i could close it down forcefully with no database repairs.
THAT IS NEVER a good idea, but a measure of LAST RESORT--especially with Data base software. //F

Your problems are being caused by your own actions, force closing TAD and CMP will cause an improper shutdown of the database, resulting in a database rebuild next load. If it freezes for a bit, its more than likely because its trying to sort out all the content database pieces.
If you think you have problems with it, See the We've Been Had (http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?111082-We-ve-been-had-it-seems) thread--and all that trouble was happening to a career IT professional and others-- One thing that came out of that is Compatibility settings matter. Sounds unlikely that you are, but if you are running Windows 8, goto all the Trainz .EXE files and hit [ALT]-[ENTER] and set them to run in Windows 7 compatibility mode. If Vista, Try XP-SP3. Regardless, any Windows OS after XP, click on the exe's and shortcuts you use and set them to run as administrator. // F

Nobody is forcing you to kill the content manager when it is working and I don't see what N3V could do to stop you doing daft things with it.
'not responding' does not mean it has crashed. Paul
It sometimes does Paul. Get in the habit of using [CTRL]-[SHFT]-[ESC] (Opens Task Manager) Set it so it stays open when minimized (ALT+O = Options toggle). LMB on your CM, then RMBh > Goto Process (bottom in Win 7). Watch the CPU column for a while, both TADdaemon and CM or Surveyor. If TrainzUtil is showing activity, and TADdaemon is showing activity, things are alive, but you are likely in a validation situation.

It is quite possible Trainz is detecting a corrupted asset, and trying to resolve the matter. If this is happening on the same route, or a route is shutting down (crashing) try these steps:

IN each of the dependencies steps, you may (Will likely) get a message: Are you sure you want to calculate the dependencies for XXXX assets? Say Yes, and wait it out. CM will be busy (Ask the task manager CPU column! Sort on it.) Title bar will say "CM 3.7 is not Responding", or the like.



View the route+session's dependencies in Main View.
Click inside the Kuid window (normally looks blank, but there's a list in there), [CTRL]-[A], [CTRL]-[C].
Open an scratch file in your favorite text editor, paste that CSL to safeguard it.
Click on an asset in CM Main View, [CTRL]-[A], RMBh > View dependencies...
repeat 1-2, add a comma to the end of the safed list, paste in the dependencies.
repeat 4 and 5, and (1-2) until you run out of new dependencies.
Your list in the editor now should hold all the assets and dependencies that may have a problem.
A screenful at a time work your way down or up and systematically tell CM to validate (View errors and warnings).
If nothing shows up, do that again, but open for edit a screeful at time, using a drag and drop to the PEVtool images2tga. When they're opened, you're likely to see errors, esp. in built-ins, hence you can first exclude those by adding that filter with the kuid list (implicit AND) and toggling the right pane to FALSE.
If cleaning up the non-BI's, you'll be able to treat the other state by setting that to TRUE.



Often Trainz has rather a large number of assets and can appear to be none responsive when in fact it is doing something. Right click the task bar and start task manager. Look under processes and you'll see cpu being used etc. One one machine I've seen Trainz mulling for three days but that was unusual but I'd tend to let it run a full repair overnight and it should sort itself out.

Cheerio John
Agree that patience and good judgement is needed. Microsoft's resource center has a freeware utility Procexp (Process Explorer) which is far more useful to see what is active and not--things are displayed in a tree grouping with sub-processes under so you can see what belongs to which Apps. Task Manager hides quite a few things. Another nice feature on that is the ability to suspend a process or kill it, and you can rely on it to get all the pieces instead of creating an instability if you kill a process in Task Manager. // Frank

Fabartus
August 24th, 2014, 03:30 PM
Given this issue has been discussed several times I think it's more than one or two users. The software is at fault because prior to SP1 CMP in 49922 ran impeccably. For people experiencing the fault in 61388 on exactly the same hardware that means *something* changed when N3V updated CMP and it no longer works reliably. Even if, as the N3V fanboys suggest, we are being terminally impatient and should wait for the white mist to dissipate and CMP to magically start working again, that's not how it was in 49922 or indeed with TS2009/TS2010 before.

This is cogently put -- the issue has been aired to a fair the well, and TANE work has stopped any effort to fix this Trainz situation which is spoiling the experience for those of us with more than basic Trainz skills. Heck of a way to appreciate your customers. //F


We can debate this round in circles all day of course but I'd be quite interested in an official response from N3V with their view on the issue and whether it has been logged at Helpdesk. If not, then suggest all of us encountering the problem start sending in a report each and every time it happens in an effort to get them to take notice.
I couldn't agree more... of course one time I suggested that back last October Windwalkr blocked me for a month as being 'unduly disruptive'--that was over the sound issues, iirc. Ditto on other long standing complaints. Let them eat tickets until they start NOT ignoring the user base and our needs. // Frank

Fabartus
August 24th, 2014, 04:11 PM
I have alleviated this by making sure that exception for the folder I installed on is defined in antivirus, software protection, etc. Also, installation in a root folder, not the default, seems to help things. I actually went one step further, separate partition on SSD. In the last 6 months, one time it had to do database audit, QDR, with no impact on anything.

Paul
This is all good practice, save for running Trainz on an SSD -- those can only take so many read-write operations then break, and Trainz is constantly using, closing, and messing with the HDD files, so while fast, back up to a HDD early and often! I'd write a little batch file using Xcopy to copy over any changed files in UserData and add that to the windows scheduler. Xcopy is both very fast, fairly smart, and very reliable and been around almost forever now. (It's almost a perfect utility!)

The blocking of post write monitoring of ALL Trainz directories can also be very important--as often as Trainz goes write crazy, and as a computer engineer I wanted to re-emphasize and endorse your methodology. Another thing to mention is Windows cache and Temp files ought be on a different HDD than Trainz, as disk to disk transfer is FAR, FAR easier on the hardware as well as much faster than asking one drive to write to different places on itself. THAT is what causes 'Thrashing' as the heads have to seek, operate, seek, operate, seek, operate... and that repositioning really strains their tiny little motors and the attached lever arms, et. al. but also imposes seek delays that can significantly slow the operations. Ideally, Windows and Aps on one HDD, Trainz and other big consumer aps (solid works, Blender, things which don't run concurrently much, or at least not such that one is busy when the other may also be simultaneously) on another. TEMP and Cache on a third... a back up drive. // F


I'd like to say something regarding this mess, again. SNIP
Opening the corrupted data, by the way, caused CM to lockup completely, white screen ghosting, however TADD was doing its thing in the background. At one point I ended up killing CM, but not TADD and restarted CM again without problems. After the restart, I shut it down normally and let TADD close when it was done validating and received the queue request to shutdown. After that I started CM again, and the validation process proceeded where it left off and CM was laggy as expected.

Emphasis added
SNIP JohnI didn't 'get' that on our phone consults. This suggests CM is just in suspense -- waiting for an answer of some sort from the handlers ('Dynamic Duo'), TrainzUtil (operations) +TADdaemon (communications), or maybe it missed a response and goes into an endless, wait for answer state, looping mindlessly and never able to move on. It may be, That long validation and all that communication needs to finish, but the new CM being a separate process is spawned without the need to wait. The first CM, if you do as John Weylan reports above and wait overnight, may eventually get an answer and re-enervate. We know TADdaemon has an activity monitor, it may well be CM has become so dependent upon it, that such locks occur when there is something-fishy-in-the-data-base, and they aren't quite there yet in making it work the last 2% of what's needed. Since the Dynamic Duo are also active during the run-time GUI's, an anomaly whilst running those could also explain some of the freezes and crashes in those GUI modes. (And John you have had that happen before the HDD failed... Veddy, veddy, interesting.)

This sort of resolution,by the way, would be amenable to a far faster resolution if they were inloading binary modules instead of this hybrid data storage scheme with compressed files in chumps. The binary file would have an error check code (like the internet data a packet) which can be reassessed on a speedy read-in, and if it indicates data corruption, TrainzUtil could be tasked to rebuild that asset from the Hash folders with the source materials. Secondly, any non-locally modified asset in the JAs or from the DLS could have a check header record--a short 'characteristics table' stripped off the top of said binaries (object files) and could be downloaded as a 'on need' and while validating check resource. These would be on the order of size as an internet data packet, a few hundred bytes, so any such check-read validations would be very efficient and fast. I hear TANE will have a new made over DLS 'whitepages'... this sort of capability should be planned into it. We pointed out last July (http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?103395-The-ability-to-add-comments-to-config-txt-files-This-was-removed-in-2-9-and-up) that the current data storage model relying on our source code and failing to preprocess was antiquated, inefficient, and well... was less than optimal, so cross your fingers Chris Bergman & Sons Co. has been back-burner working it since. // F


Couldn't help adding my $0.02 here. Most of you guys that posted here have been around Trainz as long or longer than me, I see John, Justin, Ron, Shane...the usual suspects (I waited a year to come back to forums after the big crash of '06). Remember CMP? what was the Plus? Plus headaches? Plus a big hammer for smashing the keyboard out of frustration? We've come a long way since then. Content Mangler is like an old man, it doesn't move very fast - and when it does move, you have to have patience. Either way, it's better than it used to be and 99% of the time runs great if you leave it alone and let it do its thing. Go get a cup of coffee, see what the family looks like today, whatever - just have patience. Maybe it's easier said than done for some of the younger folks, seems like today the world is tailored to their instant gratification lifestyle. But then again, my phone still plugs in the wall....

MikeThe only thing suspicious about John is whether he's awake or sleep walking. To be serious, the Plus is the ability to sort and such. One reason I didn't go into CMP much was it crashed a few times on me and I didn't need the grief. So I surveyed a lot, drove a little. And finally decided I ought upgrade--that surely the downloading issues that had my son swearing when he was 14 were resolved in a product family that had been around so long. HAH!

OTOH, The CM's do run far better than CMP, even after SP1, that one shuts down on me at times. (I've got 4 different CM's loafing running whilst 'loafing' here. Back to work!) // Frank

Falcus
August 24th, 2014, 04:46 PM
I would also point out that nobody has mentioned system resources yet....

I have *newish* 3rd Gen Quad Core i5 running Win8, NO vid card, 8GB of Ram (of which Trainz can only ever use half being 32 bit as I understand things). Runs All aspects of Trainz very very well, until I try to load a few billion polys too quickly in surveyor in which case Trainz itself will crash to desktop (Im sure a vid car would fix this), but TadDaemon usually won't crash as a result. CM never crashes unless I'm eating lots of RAM with other programs, and I let CM run pretty much 24/7 even when I'm running TRS12 (For reasons below).

That said, I rarely have issues with CM. Sure once in awhile it does the same shtick I've seen it doing since TRS2006. Your old friend, the (Not Responding) message in the top.... Mind, I also have roughly 100K assets out of the the entire known quantity of ~350K (This last number will vary for everyone as it changes daily with whats uploaded to the DLS, and how many non-DLS assets your CM is aware of at any given time). I will attest to the fact that, More assets slows both CM and Trainz'12 down. When I first installed Trainz and copied everything out of 06 (My main version at the time), EVERYTHING was a breeze. Practically no wait times for anything.... Now, I only had about 25K Assets then too though.... I've had TRS2012 for a little over a year (I think), got it literally a week before 61388 hit the net (Bought it on impulse at Half Price Books). In the intervening time since, the wait times for anything from a DB rebuild to just opening my frickin menus in surveyor went from non-existant to up to a full minute at times (Notably the first time in any session in Surveyor while the DB loads what it needs to).....

In all this time, I've only run 3 DB Rebuilds, and never a full/extended one, only quick ones and each one was due to the same asset being faulty. The most common recurring problem that has appeared in CM though due to lack of resources? The text in the Search Bars at the top go funny and hard to read if I let the CM run when Im running too many other things, and refuse to reset until I restart CM.... I am Constantly DLing off the DLS (I refuse to pay a yearly fee for a FCT, flat out, so I do it all in 100MB Increments and manage what it DLs, all at no greater then 11-12/kbps), and am also constantly downloading from third party sites. I have to believe that my managing my content gathering this way alleviates alot of resource managing by the CM....

So that all said, to those having problems, what resources do you have to give CM, how many resources does your CM need (Is it getting enough to manage the size of your DB?), and how are you managing your resources?


Also, IDK if its been said yet, though the clues have been posted already. The reason why TADDaemon and CM can be force quit for months on end and then suddenly stop can happen for a couple reasons.

1:You have now encountered a faulty-ish asset (Just enough to cause problems, not enough to send up big red flags, theres one asset I know of in particular that does this, and because it was frequently used about 5 years ago or so it keeps cropping up in my DB despite my best attempts to obliterate the little bugger whenever I find it) and it needs to be found and removed (Though the DB Rebuilds you all seem to be doing as punishment should fix this particular issue).

or

2: (The more likely reason) Everytime you force quit your CM or your Daemon, you're playing roulette. As you do this, you're interupting DB management... Thats bad... Thats like hard powering down a computer running Windows2000 or earlier before Microsoft got really good (And annoying) at Multiple Backup techniques during operation (Which btw eat something like 100 times more Ram now as a result. Thank Idiot Proofing for higher OS Resource Requirements as much as anything else). You kept doing it, eventually you'd be asking for an HD Reformat because you're leaving pieces of unfinished Process all over the place, and as this accumulates the more difficulty the system has trying to manage it. Neither Windows2000 nor Trainz was built with 'unintended use' in mind(Read Contrary to what any tech savvy person would ever do, like overload available resources, or intentionally breaking their DB by Force Quitting). With Trainz DB this is even more important to realize, because every process you interrupt is dealing with at least one asset. Each asset thats left mid-process has the ability to be broken as a result, not because its legitimately broken or can't be fixed in a DB Rebuild, but broken because the now 2 jagged uneven halves of it are sitting in 2 different places in your folders, or was part way through being written into another asset etc etc. NOW, every time you try to load THAT asset, it causes a crash... CM or Trainz.... Then multiply that by EVERY ASSET that gets into this state everytime you force quit CM... If you have 50k plus assets, it might be awhile before you notice the issues. Tack on the fact that the DB is capable of restoring some amount of this on its own with out a DB rebuild, and you can carry on happily abusing your DB for some time in some cases if you're careful.... But eventually it'll catch up to you.... Before I had this computer back in TRS'06 I had very similar situations to what many here have complained of, and yes sometimes I could go months Force Quitting CM or TADDaemon and not need a rebuild, but as my DB got bigger notably, sometimes I would FQ Once and need a Rebuild (Particularly if I made the mistake of doing it to TADDaemon while it was running through Trainz).

So again, I would point out the questions:
What resources do you have for your Trainz Install to use?
How many resources is Trainz likely to need (IE how big is your DB)?
What are you doing to manage to those Resources for Trainz?

Hope this helps somebody, as even if it helps nobody, anybody could use it....
Thanks for reading if you have,
Falcus

JCitron
August 24th, 2014, 06:24 PM
Hi Falcus,

Good technical points here... Yes, TS12 will only see up to 4GB maximum of RAM as this is a 32-bit application. Windows 7 and up will allocate this much to any 32-bit application no matter how much RAM is installed on the system. This is part of the 32-bit APIs used in he operating system, and allows these applications to co-exist on a 64-bit platform. T:ANE is going to be a full 64-bit application so it can work with as much RAM as the system can throw at it and will therefore have many, many more resources than we are using now.

Yes, databases will take a beating for some time. I've seen that with big MS_SQL and Oracle databases. They have built-in data recovery through transaction logging so they can "playback" and restore missing parts. This as you said can go on just for so long before something gets totally wrecked. In our case we see lock ups with the application, which if you read my post I noted well. The fact that my data corruption was caused by ailing hardware eventually destroyed some assets. I've been able to go through my non-built-in items by opening them for edit and then closing them again. The ones I couldn't open due to errors, or could be committed again, were replaced with fresh ones.

Windows Vista, actually Windows NT 4.0 and up as I should say, has journaling built into it to help recover data. This is kept in the Master File Table (MFT) which is divided into two parts - directories and files. Windows also does a lot of caching with such processes as disk access and directory structure building. This is why it's not good to turn off or reset systems while the drive is being written to. Things can really go down hill really fast if this is done one time too many. The current iterations of the operating system; Windows 7 and Windows 8.xx have another layer of resiliency built into it. This too actually started with Vista as well, but has been more refined. I believe this is what you were referring to, and this will eat up a ton of disk space. Every file that is opened and changed, is copied and saved to the volume store. This acts as a safety net and files can be restored should they be corrupted. Whether this is operating system-controlled or application controlled I don't know as I've never made use of this technology myself to find out.

The problem as you've noted is partly the database size, which grows exponentially as routes are installed. The ever constant search of dependencies brings more and more data down whether we actually need that or not. Combine that with our own activities, and we have pretty full hard disks very fast. This additional data does slow things down, and sometimes badly. To help mitigate this problem, I run regular drive defragmenting sessions as well as prevent the antivirus program from scanning and accessing the Trainz data folders. This latter process does help with the access due to less interference by the antivirus program on the data, and the defrag has helped considerably as well particularly when doing work in Surveyor and Content Manager due to the data manipulation as we search for content.

This however, doesn't solve the crashing which many of us have experienced. As we've all stated before, and have been through the mess, the best thing to do when Trainz is in a snit is to leave it alone and let it recover.

John

cvkiwi
August 24th, 2014, 09:47 PM
Hi all I have a problem with trainz Every time I go to start trainz it does a DATA BASE CLEAN UP I got home from work this morning
At 0700 and went to start Trainz and yes its done it again it is now 1445 in the afternoon and it still doing the database clean up
Why is this happening and how do I stop it so I can muck around with trainz before I go to work?
Thanks all
Chris Sullivan
NEW ZEALAND

martinvk
August 24th, 2014, 10:50 PM
Do you every close your computer before TADDaemon has finished? Ever force a shutdown via Task Manager? I can't remember the last time I had a database cleanup start except when I chose to do it. Even after adding and deleting content.

Fabartus
August 24th, 2014, 11:36 PM
I would also point out that nobody has mentioned system resources yet....

I have *newish* 3rd Gen Quad Core i5 running Win8, NO vid card, 8GB of Ram (of which Trainz can only ever use half being 32 bit as I understand things). Runs All aspects of Trainz very very well, until I try to load a few billion polys too quickly in surveyor in which case Trainz itself will crash to desktop (Im sure a vid car would fix this), but TadDaemon usually won't crash as a result. CM never crashes unless I'm eating lots of RAM with other programs, and I let CM run pretty much 24/7 even when I'm running TRS12 (For reasons below).

The correlation between letting CM run for a long while and the lack of validation pausing was covered in depth in that We've been had thread. I even got John to stop shutting it down while surveying, which is a darn useful thing, any way you slice it. Like you, I generally let them run 24/7 and let power management make things snooze. That's far better for the critical hardware anyway. Chips and circuit boards fail most times because of thermal cycling--like an airliner shell experiences metal fatigue from cycling to high altitudes/low pressure and landing/high pressures. Unless I have a update scheduled, the computer is on, and any software I was working in, save the browsers. Better to cycle those and let them free their caches.

Finding an asset that way vice in the Surveyor tools can be much faster for starters... it gets better from there as you can grab a kuid list (resource in a spreadsheet or text editor) and make a filter (custom pick list) and use the filter in Surveyor for placement. Not as good as what we've asked for, but still a viable work around for not being able to save and import pick lists! // F



In all this time, I've only run 3 DB Rebuilds, and never ... SNIP...

Also, IDK if its been said yet, though the clues have been posted already. The reason why TADDaemon and CM can be force quit for months on end and then suddenly stop can happen for a couple reasons.

1:You have now encountered a faulty-ish asset (Just enough to cause problems, not enough to send up big red flags, theres one asset I know of in particular that does this, and because it was frequently used about 5 years ago or so it keeps cropping up in my DB despite my best attempts to obliterate the little bugger whenever I find it) and it needs to be found and removed (Though the DB Rebuilds you all seem to be doing as punishment should fix this particular issue).
Consider making a Special substitute asset--a big tall imposing clone of an office building or type that will really stand out as 'Just plain wrong' if the bugger shows up again. Edit that clone and add the troublesome asset to it's obsolete-table. If the skyscraper (Reskinned in purple polka-dots and Pink as that sexy nighty SHE should wear more often... <g>) shows... you've got the vaccine in place and can substitute using the replace asset tool. Have you checked the DLS Cleanup page to see if the asset's listed? Put in a ticket on it? // F

or


2: (The more likely reason) Everytime you force quit your CM or your Daemon, you're playing roulette. As you do this, you're interupting DB management... Thats bad... Thats like hard powering down a computer running Windows2000 or earlier before Microsoft got really good
SNIP SNIP but those parts need re-read
So again, I would point out the questions:
What resources do you have for your Trainz Install to use?
How many resources is Trainz likely to need (IE how big is your DB)?
What are you doing to manage to those Resources for Trainz?

Hope this helps somebody, as even if it helps nobody, anybody could use it....
Thanks for reading if you have,
FalcusWhat he says...and those parts of his post need re-read!

Kudos! You clearly know what you're doing dude! // Frank

Fabartus
August 24th, 2014, 11:57 PM
Hi all I have a problem with trainz Every time I go to start trainz it does a DATA BASE CLEAN UP I got home from work this morning
At 0700 and went to start Trainz and yes its done it again it is now 1445 in the afternoon and it still doing the database clean up
Why is this happening and how do I stop it so I can muck around with trainz before I go to work?
Thanks all
Chris Sullivan
NEW ZEALAND

See the Post on page #1 (http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?113985-This-Needs-to-Stop&p=1320227#post1320227) and read all of this thread carefully where advice and techniques are given ... and also that in that linked We've been had Thread carefully. Listen to Falcus' advice (bottom Page 1) and apply to your own practices. Martin, John, Justin, others, and myself let the computer have a long while to settle, IF WE SHUT IT DOWN AT ALL. That seems to be a good way to start. (You should do a manual restart after installing new software, and once a week, however! Point is MANAGE IT!)

Hardware wears out fastest when turned on and off. Set up a reasonable energy savings sleep and hibernate scheme in your computer Control Panel and also tame your auto-updates so YOU know when those happen, and can gate them when it is convenient for YOU. I never let Microsoft auto-update, nor all the many others things which stabilizes things--ALL must ask permission, excepting virus and anti-malware data updates. Good software will generally have a option to go out and check for updates, then inform you it needs done. Letting all the auto-update software run unmanaged is another good way to loose control and let confusion enter your life.

OTOH, if it's happening often, and you've let CM have it's day to loaf, you probably need to put a hiatus on downloading and changing data and vett your content systematically using the procedure (here on page 1) (http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?113985-This-Needs-to-Stop&p=1320227#post1320227) as a guide--save if booting CM, the implication can't be tied to a route or session, so you've got a more troublesome search. Set up a filter for all older content that is not built-in and systematically work your way through it. I prefer to archive old obsoleted assets, others delete them. Some others let them stay in place.

I've a suspicion, a notion, I'm better off than they are for archiving them leaves the data base index with a handle, but takes the asset from the local files structures. That means if I loose the whole assets.tdx, CM can re-reference the obsoletes and reconnect the dots with existing replacements. If they are gone, there would be no place for CM to start, but the DLS, and those which are from 3rd party sites then become problematic.

Can't prove that, but it's a 'professional suspicion'. Whatever you do, don't disable them, then delete them. I made that mistake once and am still recovering control over those 115 kuids! Last and on point, If you had CM running when you went to bed, it'd have been done at 7:00 am. When both Surveyor and CM are offline, the background validation process shuts down, then needs to restart from the beginning. If it's got a ToDo list, it needs the time to ToDo, so keep it up and see if things improve. If it doesn't PM me and we can have a go with a few other approaches. FYI, your 7:00am is my Noon, so Skype is an option, but start with an EDR and letting CM have a day to loaf if it needs time. Nuff said. // Frank

JohnnyC1
August 25th, 2014, 09:01 AM
If you normally set your computer to hibernate/sleep you will have remove the hibernation/sleep setting to never if you plan to perform any EDR/QDR. Failing to do so will stop/suspend your EDR/QDR.

John

martinvk
August 25th, 2014, 04:27 PM
I would also point out that nobody has mentioned system resources yet....

I have *newish* 3rd Gen Quad Core i5 running Win8, NO vid card, 8GB of Ram (of which Trainz can only ever use half being 32 bit as I understand things). Runs All aspects of Trainz very very well, until I try to load a few billion polys too quickly in surveyor in which case Trainz itself will crash to desktop (Im sure a vid car would fix this),...Surprised that you haven't had more problems considering you don't have a dedicated video card but are relying on the built-in video chip instead. In the interests of clarity, what video chip in on your motherboard? You probably also don't have any dedicated video memory which explains the crashes from too many polys. The received wisdom is that that is asking for trouble.

JCitron
August 25th, 2014, 06:48 PM
Crashing Trainz and Content Manager lock ups are definitely related to data corruption. I have had one particular route that kept crashing in a certain place all the time. I suspected there was something wrong with the content on the route so I viewed dependencies and hid the built-in assets of which there were 2600 non-built-in assets. When I opened up the assets for edit, to verify the content with PEV's Tools, CM locked up and I ended up killing it with the task manager which is something I don't like to do. What I found was some corrupted assets, which I mentioned previously in this thread. Since the content was available on the DLS, I deleted the corrupted assets and redownloaded them again. In the end, due to the lockups, which did occur a couple of times, I ended up doing a QDR, however, the route now runs fine.

So if you have lockups or route crashes, check the data!

John

Vern
August 25th, 2014, 08:57 PM
As a postscript to my earlier comments, after a couple of relatively carefree days using CMP in 49922 I decided to push back up to 61388. Big mistake... Thinking some desert scrub texture would look nice on my latest route, I entered a search string, clicked on an item to view the thumbnail and - lo and behold - instant white screen and nowt much happening. Following the advice of our sage experts I then did nothing, apart from open Task Manager where TadDaemon was frozen at 00 CPU and @136k memory. Left it while the missus beat me at Monopoly and we then got tea ready. Came back an hour and a half later and... still the whited out screen and 00 CPU and @136k memory in use. So here we go, Ctrl - Alt - Del, shut down TadDaemon and TrainzUtil, re-launch Trainz and another 20 minutes of my life wasted while the mandatory QDR runs. It is this that is more irksome than anything else, I only viewed one object didn't even download so why the chuff does it have to run through every item on my PC, each and every time this happens?

And, at the risk of repeating myself, this is the exact hardware, exact same level of assets installed as under 49922 whiere CMP runs without any issue. All I want is a few assets from the DLS for my route, for gawd's sake.

dricketts
August 25th, 2014, 09:22 PM
dont force it closed, just wait. by doing that you will destroy the database.

Do you mean corrupt e database? I've been guilty of forcing it to close when it seems to hang forever.

norfolksouthern37
August 25th, 2014, 09:56 PM
Do you mean corrupt e database? I've been guilty of forcing it to close when it seems to hang forever.

Well yes, but since a corrupt database is just as useless to the program as no database and it still has to be rebuilt...

chris2001trainz2010
August 26th, 2014, 06:40 AM
And I must say, the only reason i upgraded to SP1 was so that the steamer's cabs would FUNCTION. Maybe, i should've just lived with it.

Falcus
August 29th, 2014, 12:02 AM
Surprised that you haven't had more problems considering you don't have a dedicated video card but are relying on the built-in video chip instead. In the interests of clarity, what video chip in on your motherboard? You probably also don't have any dedicated video memory which explains the crashes from too many polys. The received wisdom is that that is asking for trouble.

Intel R 6 Series/C200 Chipset Family Series 6. I believe thats what it is, I dug it out under the IDE ATA/ATAP listing in Device manager, where Im used to finding ALL display "devices" (Built-in or not) being listed under "Display", but I don't deal with Graphics Machinations overly much.

Yes, I am asking for trouble by not running a Vid Card, and I knew that going into it. I genuinely don't have the cash to get a vid card atm (Mostly because I would absolutely have to upgrade my Power Supply to do this, nor do I expect to be able to do this in the foreseeable future). However, so long as that trouble is as easy as keeping a mental note of areas to avoid on certain routes, it doesn't bother me that much. Honestly though, it doesn't crash that often, and even in places that *could* crash it, as long as I slow down before I get there and let it load at a more manageable pace, that will prevent most of those crashes to boot. The point I was trying to make before is all about resource management being a Possible avenue for alleviating problems.... And the reason I made that post is because I live it every time I DL another asset or Boot up Surveyor or Driver.... Management isn't about fun (Generally), or doing things because you're a megalomaniac, its so that you can accomplish things with some modicum of efficiency and maybe accomplish focused goals that you wouldn't otherwise be able to accomplish.... Further its a skill that many people I've met in my life distinctly lack....

Falcus

Falcus
August 29th, 2014, 12:23 AM
As a postscript to my earlier comments, after a couple of relatively carefree days using CMP in 49922 I decided to push back up to 61388. Big mistake... Thinking some desert scrub texture would look nice on my latest route, I entered a search string, clicked on an item to view the thumbnail and - lo and behold - instant white screen and nowt much happening. Following the advice of our sage experts I then did nothing, apart from open Task Manager where TadDaemon was frozen at 00 CPU and @136k memory. Left it while the missus beat me at Monopoly and we then got tea ready. Came back an hour and a half later and... still the whited out screen and 00 CPU and @136k memory in use. So here we go, Ctrl - Alt - Del, shut down TadDaemon and TrainzUtil, re-launch Trainz and another 20 minutes of my life wasted while the mandatory QDR runs. It is this that is more irksome than anything else, I only viewed one object didn't even download so why the chuff does it have to run through every item on my PC, each and every time this happens?

And, at the risk of repeating myself, this is the exact hardware, exact same level of assets installed as under 49922 whiere CMP runs without any issue. All I want is a few assets from the DLS for my route, for gawd's sake.

2 things I'd point out.
1: Force quitting
Force Quitting a program is never a "Good Idea". That said, sometimes its necessary. If the program is well and truly hung, particularly if it is so because it ran out of resources (Cough ahem), it won't be able to disentangle itself without outside help in the form of a Force Quit or a System Reboot. For it to Hang that severely, the only possible reason in my experience is that some function operating within it has eaten up all available resources to the point that the program is so busy looking for more resources it doesn't even get the chance to check to see if there are more resources to be had....

My advice here would be to start by Force Closing, doing the rebuild, and while its doing that, maybe start thinking about trying to manage your resources better (Do you have more then 4GB of Ram? Do you have a Late Model Vid Card? Were you running anything else in the background that might have been eating a bunch of resources? What amount of Ram/CPU usage was CM at, they are in fact different programs that are just made to work together, and there for both must be budgeted for, same with Trainz), or buying more resources for it to play with (Ram, Newer Vid Card, etc etc). Either way, knowing the difference between situations where its better to not Force Quit, and when TO Force Quit and risk the Database Rebuild can only help you make better managerial decisions. Further, everytime it happens, study what happened to cause the Hang up. Read the Jet Log, check the Event Viewer. If either mention an Error Number plug it into Google and see what it says.... This is simple PC Software Debugging. And yes, its probably outside of most user's comfort zone, but what would we rather be doing? Playing Trainz? Or posting our woes on the forums? The more information you gather, and the more aware you are of the issues that can occur and how to circumvent them, the more time you're going to have on the rails, its a simple, and undeniable fact....

2:
Ever Increasing Requirements.
Theres alot more resources around then just the size of your Database. And while I'd be kind of surprised to discover that the level of resource requirements between 49922 and 61388 would be that incredibly different, I do know that its happened before. The simple matter of how the game deals with real time resources for services such as Multi-player servers and Itrainz chat eat up more resources between versions. Further, its hard in my honest opinion to blame a single incident on a new version without more information.... Just because it rains this year after a new person moved to town doesn't mean its that person's fault it's raining.....

This said, my main point is that newer versions CAN come with slightly higher Resource requirements.... Be aware of it and plan for it. Trainz is 32 Bit so it can operate at a max of 4GB ram? Make sure you have 8... It asks for X amount of Vid Ram? Double that if you can, or like me invest in a CPU that doesn't even Sneeze when Trainz crashes.... Meeting requirements for any large resource eating program is a balancing act, and conducting day to day operations of such is a management task... If you don't want to deal with it, thats fine too, but Xbox doesn't have a Train sim program yet, and every other sim is in the same boat Trainz is, each with their differing issues, because we're asking something smaller then our bodies to create a world with the ability to be bigger then our Reality.... I think I'll cut the Machines some slack and do my best to help it along, and understand that if my Hardware setup is unable to accomplish something, then thats just as far as it will go.

Falcus

JCitron
August 29th, 2014, 10:49 AM
I agree that killing an application is not a good idea. In fact it is generally frowned upon by most computer professionals as that only causes other problems later on since force quitting the program causes file handles to be left open since the proper shutdown process was not invoked while the program was running. Unfortunately, sometimes there is no choice in the matter as we've found out.

Yes, TS12 like its parents and grandparents is a 32-bit application. This means it will use no more than the 4GB of RAM allocated, and technically (mathematically) feasible with 32-bits. Having more RAM installed on a system does help if you're running a 64-bit operating system because the operating system can tuck out of the way while the 4GB slice of memory is allocated to the 32-bit application. The modern operating systems, such as Windows 7 and up, handle 32-bit applications natively and automatically do this without special drivers, command lines, or other patches. The reason is there is a 32-bit subset of code within these operating systems to allow this, and they will allocate 4GB chunks of memory as the emulate a 32-bit environment. Prior to this, such as in 64-bit Windows XP and in Windows NT4.0, this wasn't always possible due to how the code was written in the program. In the older applications, the operating systems used a different method which caused applications to crash unless they were written to run natively under the 64-bit operating system.

Sure running slower in built-up areas helps when there's lots of content in an area. This is sometimes necessary anyway if this is a yard or city because most trains don't go racing through a freight yard or station since these areas are usually at a restricted speed anyway. What's interesting is I was doing this way back under TRS2004!

The ever increasing resources is due to more complex models, and this is brought on by the ever increasing realism that people want with assets, animated industries, our lovely oversized Speed Trees, super realistic buildings, and super realistic train cars, people, and everything else. Keep in mind that even if something is not visible on a route for use, it's using up resources. Scripts and background processes are a big chunk of resources of an application.

We have to remember too, as having said what I just did here, we're currently still trying to run this newer content on an older software platform. This is akin to trying to put a Model T on Interstate 95 and drive it at 70mph. It just ain't going to do it as they say. It may run but not efficiently and probably crash. This also brings up another point, and that is stricter rules regarding LOD and error checking. As much as people complain about moving forward, this is also a requirement to make things work better. In many cases our beloved Build 2.0 models are not built to run efficiently meaning they lack LOD and more modern texturing methods. This is no fault of the model creators since they used the best methods, in most cases, which were available to them at that time. Since then both hardware and software has moved along so we now have to redo things to work better.

John

NYCBlues
August 29th, 2014, 10:55 AM
The best solution to all these problems? Get yourself an iMAC and TRS MAC 2. Problem solved.

martinvk
August 29th, 2014, 12:50 PM
The best solution to all these problems? Get yourself an iMAC and TRS MAC 2. Problem solved.As someone without any version, how would you know?

RRSignal
August 29th, 2014, 12:50 PM
nvm, too easy.

NYCBlues
August 29th, 2014, 09:20 PM
As a matter of fact I have two versions, TRS MAC 1 and 2. They're just not registered, that's all. What I meant is that on an iMAC, none of the problems they are talking about above ever happen. Those sorts of things only happen on Windows PCs. With an iMac, you can force close an application anytime you want, shut the computer down by pressing and holding the power button, even pull the plug out, and it will automatically save what you were working on, close all applications properly and shut the computer down in the proper way, and it does all that in just a few seconds. Let's see a Windows PC do that.

ryanstrains
August 29th, 2014, 09:34 PM
As a matter of fact I have two versions, TRS MAC 1 and 2. They're just not registered, that's all. What I meant is that on an iMAC, none of the problems they are talking about above ever happen. Those sorts of things only happen on Windows PCs. With an iMac, you can force close an application anytime you want, shut the computer down by pressing and holding the power button, even pull the plug out, and it will automatically save what you were working on, close all applications properly and shut the computer down in the proper way, and it does all that in just a few seconds. Let's see a Windows PC do that.
Hello:

You should register your serial numbers so you can get access to the DLS and get support if you have any problems. You can register by going to the Auran homepage and logging into your Planet Auran account using the same details as the forum.

Cheers

Ryan

JCitron
August 29th, 2014, 09:59 PM
As a matter of fact I have two versions, TRS MAC 1 and 2. They're just not registered, that's all. What I meant is that on an iMAC, none of the problems they are talking about above ever happen. Those sorts of things only happen on Windows PCs. With an iMac, you can force close an application anytime you want, shut the computer down by pressing and holding the power button, even pull the plug out, and it will automatically save what you were working on, close all applications properly and shut the computer down in the proper way, and it does all that in just a few seconds. Let's see a Windows PC do that.

This issue don't have anything to do with this being Windows. It's the older version of the software which is a 32-bit application. The new version, T: ANE, will not have these system and memory limitations because like the Apple version will be new and make use of the newer hardware and operating systems that are available today. I'm not sure if you are aware that the very first Trainz version came out in 2001 and all subsequent versions are based on that as a code base. We also have to remember that there was no 32-bit or 64-bit home operating systems. In the early days, prior to Windows Vista even, we only had 32-bit Windows for home. There were 64-bit Windows versions, however, they were used on servers and high-end workstations which wouldn't run games anyway. When Vista came along, there was a push to make use of the capabilities of the new processors which were 64-bit, and this has been the case ever since.

So your Apple versions are based on newer, updated code which hasn't made it to the PC platform yet and we will see this with T: ANE.

John

Falcus
August 30th, 2014, 04:30 PM
As a matter of fact I have two versions, TRS MAC 1 and 2. They're just not registered, that's all. What I meant is that on an iMAC, none of the problems they are talking about above ever happen. Those sorts of things only happen on Windows PCs. With an iMac, you can force close an application anytime you want, shut the computer down by pressing and holding the power button, even pull the plug out, and it will automatically save what you were working on, close all applications properly and shut the computer down in the proper way, and it does all that in just a few seconds. Let's see a Windows PC do that.

If you haven't registered your versions, you can't Download off the DLS through the CM. I find it hard to believe that anyone would manually FTP Download the 70K+ assets the average trainz user has. If your Database isn't as large as others here, you can't have the problems being experienced here because you don't have the issue thats directly causing most of these issues, which is a database too unwieldy for system resources....

Further, as I believe another user pointed out, this isn't a Mac Vs PC problem, its a Trainz Problem. Any program that does not have robust resource management programmed into it (Read "Trainz" in this case) has this problem, and as alot of the Trainz Core programming is anywhere from 4-10 years old, it doesn't. They spent their time and money on coding a decent simulator, rather then focusing on rabbit-proofing (Which I'm more then happy about, I'm not a rabbit).

Anyway, until you'd like to contribute to the discussion instead of restarting a pointless 10 year old dead Branding war (Theres a reason why Macs can and often DO run windows now), Please leave pointless unfounded brand accusations out of this thread.

Thanks,
Falcus

JCitron
August 30th, 2014, 04:55 PM
And to add to Falcus' post... Some of have even more than 70K+ assets if we've been here for over 10 years..., and we don't see this issue all the time, however, the performance does get impacted by the amount of data that the program has to wade through when loading assets.

John