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oknotsen
June 18th, 2014, 09:27 AM
Well, I could go on for ever about how perfect that water looks to me......Probably because he "retouched" it.


Quite a bit of "retouching" in this one...hope nobody minds.I actually do mind.

I will not vote for it and try to avoid voting for any "retouched" submission because I think this is a "screenshot" competition, not a "modified screenshot" competition. It is my opinion that it should show-off route building or the game, not image editing skills.
I personally think it should be made a rule that it is not allowed, as I think it will give people without image editing skills (yes, myself included) a more fair chance in this competition, but I fear I am alone in this.

No offence intended.

deneban
June 18th, 2014, 09:36 AM
I will not vote for it and try to avoid voting for any "retouched" submission because I think this is a "screenshot" competition, not a "modified screenshot" competition. It is my opinion that it should show-off route building or the game, not image editing skills.
I personally think it should be made a rule that it is not allowed, as I think it will give people without image editing skills (yes, myself included) a more fair chance in this competition, but I fear I am alone in this.

Agreed, Nicky please take notice.

nicky9499
June 18th, 2014, 10:59 AM
Interesting point that has never been brought up before. I have seen pictures that looked even worse after editing with all sorts of overdone filters and cheesy effects and also ones that looked amazing with a gentle touch of color grading, for example. To outright deny all image manipulation may be a bit harsh I feel, especially since the tools and techniques to improve an image digitally are readily available on the internet and not a closed-off resource. Where we should draw the line between acceptable or not may be discussed though before anything is set in stone.

Cheerio,
Nicholas

rickf77
June 18th, 2014, 11:41 AM
I DO "crop" screenshots. I do this to get rid of the menus and such. I do the same with any nature photos. I mostly take photos of birds and I crop those hoping to get a closer view of them. I hate it when the wife starts "fixing" them. All I want is an image of the bird to prove it was here.

As long as we know it's been "doctored", I'm ok with it. I'm a real moron with all this fancy new computer age stuff...would it be possible for a person to submit a sort of before and after "split screen" kind of shot and still have it count as one photo for the contest?

Keep them coming, "doctored up" or not!

Cheers....Rick

deneban
June 18th, 2014, 12:11 PM
Interesting point that has never been brought up before. I have seen pictures that looked even worse after editing with all sorts of overdone filters and cheesy effects and also ones that looked amazing with a gentle touch of color grading, for example. To outright deny all image manipulation may be a bit harsh I feel, especially since the tools and techniques to improve an image digitally are readily available on the internet and not a closed-off resource. Where we should draw the line between acceptable or not may be discussed though before anything is set in stone.

(Recognizing this should be now moved to a different thread)...

Although the tools are readily available to all, the skill set required is distinct from that required for modeling an integrated Trainz scene, as Oknotsen points out, and we get an embedded contest. If you had an allowable set of digital manipulations, as you suggest, I can see where it may become difficult to differentiate allowed vs disallowed processes by just looking at the final product -- consider the vast array of Photoshop processes which are designed to provide an unretouched look.

Another approach is the candidate classify their entry as retouched or unretouched and discrete votes for each be tallied.

I suggest looking at the original basis of the contest and seeing whether retouching falls within its original intent, if possible. --JMHO.

Falcus
June 18th, 2014, 01:35 PM
I agree with Deneban, this is quickly getting to "New Topic" time.... I have my thoughts on the issue, but I'll refrain from sharing them here in an effort to preserve this thread from being hijacked any further. Nicky, since you seem to be the reigning MC atm, can you please make a new thread? Putting it in the competitions Forum would make sense to me since this going to be an issue dealing with Competitions. Otherwise just post a link to wherever you put it. That way we can have a discussion on the issue.

Edited to add: For the time being, whatever comes out of the coming discussion, I propose that no photos, particularly those already submitted, though I would extend this to the entirety of THIS weeks competition, be subjected to any further scrutiny or otherwise pulled or denigrated, until this weeks competition has closed. Changing the rules mid competition, even for an area otherwise unspecified is unfair to the current participants. Let any modifications or requirements coming out of the future discussion happen there, in the future.

Falcus

nicky9499
June 18th, 2014, 08:46 PM
As per requests; the recent discussion regarding image editing has been consolidated and can be picked up from here.

Cheerio,
Nicholas

AMTRAKwannabe
June 18th, 2014, 09:39 PM
I say cropping and adding borders should be allowed, and to some extent even filters (More for setting time period though, as in Black & White, Sepia, or color). I do not necessarily think the screenshots with excessive editing are fair, however I do vote for them because they always turn out to be the best, just my (incomplete sounding) $0.02

deneban
June 18th, 2014, 10:01 PM
I am fairly new to the contest, and so I ask as a newcomer the logical pertinent first question: Is the original intent of the contest to select the best screenshot taken directly from Trainz or is the original intent to present an optimized graphic using a Trainz screenshot as a starting point?

To me, the term "screenshot" in the contest name sounds like the original intent was simply an unretouched trainz screenshot; else it would contain the term "image" (e.g. "Trainz image of the week").

ATSF854
June 19th, 2014, 12:18 AM
hey guys I have an idea

no really its good

you ready?

Look at the screenshots and vote for whichever one you want!

wow! that was hard! You actually had to vote without telling us a 5 paragraph essay about why you wont or will vote for a certain screenshot!!

ARhian7
June 19th, 2014, 01:48 AM
My thoughts on this are: adding a frame or cropping the screenshot is not an issue.
However, tarting up a screenshot in a 3rd party program by editing for sharpness, smoothness, clarity, brightness and enhancing the colours is not an honest representative of the original scene.
I usually vote on the effort that has been put into creating the scene, originality, atmosphere, to some extent the position of where the screen shot is taken and not necessarily how "pretty" the screenshot is.

John512
June 19th, 2014, 02:39 AM
Although the tools are readily available to all, the skill set required is distinct from that required for modeling an integrated Trainz scene


I've seen unedited screenshots here that are better than other unedited screenshots. It would appear to me that the better screenshot was posted by someone with better skills and knowledge in angles and lighting in trainz etc. (not 100% sure how it works) Why is this a "fair" advantage yet using other skills and knowledge in a program such as, photoshop, is unfair?

deneban
June 19th, 2014, 08:03 AM
I've seen unedited screenshots here that are better than other unedited screenshots. It would appear to me that the better screenshot was posted by someone with better skills and knowledge in angles and lighting in trainz etc. (not 100% sure how it works) Why is this a "fair" advantage yet using other skills and knowledge in a program such as, photoshop, is unfair?

As the name tells us, the contest's root basis is to award good Trainz skills, not Photoshop (or image manipulation program) skills. If it were intended to recognize image manipulation skills, it would be named "Trainz Image of the Week" rather than "Screenshot of the Week."

deneban
June 19th, 2014, 08:08 AM
Look at the screenshots and vote for whichever one you want! wow! that was hard! You actually had to vote without telling us a 5 paragraph essay about why you wont or will vote for a certain screenshot!!

The voting is not the problem, it is the entry criteria.

clam1952
June 19th, 2014, 09:15 AM
It is my opinion that it should show-off route building or the game, not image editing skills.

Agree with the above.


To me, the term "screenshot" in the contest name sounds like the original intent was simply an unretouched trainz screenshot; else it would contain the term "image" (e.g. "Trainz image of the week").

Exactly...............

However, would banning any manipulation actually have made much difference to the results? I suspect probably not.

Epoche3bis4
June 19th, 2014, 10:21 AM
The Discussion is unnecessary for me. I give my vote for a good Picture, edited or not. It's all the same for me.

Greetings
Epo:)

nicky9499
June 19th, 2014, 10:33 AM
I give my vote for a good Picture, edited or not.


Couldn't have been put more eloquently.

+1

Conrail45
June 19th, 2014, 10:37 AM
I feel like this discussion wasn't much of an issue until recently... And I can tell you for sure there were plenty of "re-touched" screenshots before now. A screenshot is a screenshot, what a user wants to do with it is what they want to do with it. I feel that unless they specifically mess with the image itself in a 3rd party program, such as covering things, adding images, or renders, etc. that actually change the content within the shot, it's fair game. Honestly, even if things like SHARPENING (Come on, that's honestly something anyone can do, there are free websites online specifically for it...) and in my case, I ALWAYS sharpen my images (some may look better than others sharpened) but it's because I don't have the best hardware, and I use the sharpening to give the image clarity. Should we start excluding people with better hardware because they get better looking shots with better content/higher draw distance/etc.

Also, regarding the original image poster, it looks, slightly edited. "Re-touched" if you will. Nothing looks added to the shot, the water looks like an asset in-game, not something added in photoshop...

A screenshot is a screenshot, I don't think the word is intended to mean anything other than that. Editing doesn't make a screenshot something else. And editing DOESN'T give anyone an unfair advantage, I've seen heavily edited shots get no attention, and non-edited shots get a lot of attention (Not directed at anyone in particular).

To sum it up, I think edited images are fine with color editing, sharpening (again, this is almost necessary in some cases), contrast, etc. But if anything is actually tampered with regarding the content of the photo, I don't think that's a fair thing to allow.

Of course, this is my opinion, as is the other posts. I mean no offence to anyone. (Though I do feel it's a bit silly)

Then again, how do you propose to enforce these rules? How do you KNOW when a photo has been edited? If I take a photo, and sharpen it, are people going to know immediately? Same with color editing? I'm curious how this could even be enforced outside obvious edits.

Again, no offence meant to anyone, just my 2 cents in the conversation. :)



Edit: caught Epoche3bis4's post above, and agree as well.

Zorronov
June 19th, 2014, 05:59 PM
I first participated in the screenshot contest back in 2008 and photoshopping was generally a matter of personal taste. If you think an entry is over-processed and don't like it...don't vote for it. I don't think it gives an unfair advantage. In fact, I've always thought that it often loses more votes than it gains.

Now...here's my real two-cents. I think the main strength of the Trainz program has always been in the amount of creative freedom it gives the end-user, unlike other rail sims. That creativity seems to be more restricted with each new version. I, for one, don't want to add to that by making more rules governing what we can and cannot do.

Cheers,
Fred

Falcus
June 19th, 2014, 07:54 PM
I think most of the objections come from the idea of making the quantity of Trainz in a given shot less then 100%. Aside from sharpening, its not really that hard to spot alot of editing techniques if you know what you're looking for. I personally agree with what most here have said: IE, Sharpening, Films, Borders, Crops, w/e else are fine. Color shifting is fine (Nothing beats that old B&W 8MM feel sometimes ya know?). But when you're changing out landscape and what not that goes a bit too far.

After that, why not add them as themes? Say one week do a "Photoshop Feature", or another week a "Straight Shoot"? The latter would still have to include certain of the afore mentioned techniques because policing it would be far too difficult, but as long as people that want to go nuts with Photoshop and make their Daylight run on the Moon or Mars with Genuine Shots from Rovers/Landers/Missions, have a place for it, thats fine by me.

Last week there were only 10 submissions, this week theres been like 18 and we still have a day left? So obviously the themes aren't made to be all inclusive, so why not have a photoshop competition in the near future or something (Not next week, let things die down and see how many would be interested in that sort of thing)?

Falcus

rickf77
June 20th, 2014, 03:10 AM
This is only the second time I entered the contest. I don't care what anyone does to their shots. If a person has the skills to enhance images, why not use those skills?

Sorry for the second post on this, but I also wanted to ask a question. Is there a way to view trainz without the "windows"? I mean the bar on the bottom, the area in the upper right corner with the speed, etc., and any others. I rarely drive on my route, once in awhile to see that everything is working and make sure my track is nice and smooth. For screenshots, I go the area I want in the shot and slap a loco and some cars on the track. Then I go to "quick drive" and run the train through the area. After that I have to crop the shot to get rid of the windows.

In my shots, you only see what I see on the screen minus the windows and the area I had to crop to get rid of them.

Cheers....Rick

captainkman
June 20th, 2014, 03:24 AM
Try pressing F5, this removes all HUD windows at once.

To remain on-topic, I don't mind image editing so long as there are no silly lens flares. Unnecessary lens flares are my pet peeve in edited pictures and screenshots.

Kieran.

rickf77
June 20th, 2014, 03:38 AM
Thanks Kieran!

deneban
June 20th, 2014, 08:19 AM
Originally Posted by Epoche3bis4

I give my vote for a good Picture, edited or not.


Couldn't have been put more eloquently.

+1

Ok then you should rename the contest to "Trainz Picture of the Week" to eliminate the screenshot misnomer.

Isegrinns
June 20th, 2014, 02:54 PM
We could have two different competitions, every other week for WYSIWYG and the other week for "Edit-ALL-the-things" pics. Maybe about the same topic, to compare what the PotatoSHOPgods in here can harvest, un-edited first and the 2nd week edited pics.
:)

deneban
June 20th, 2014, 05:29 PM
We could have two different competitions, every other week for WYSIWYG and the other week for "Edit-ALL-the-things" pics. Maybe about the same topic, to compare what the Potatogods in here can harvest, un-edited first and the 2nd week edited pics.
:)

Or the candidates declare unretouched or retouched and we have two winners every week.

ARhian7
June 20th, 2014, 05:52 PM
Or the candidates declare unretouched or retouched and we have two winners every week.

This is an excellent idea! :Y:

Epoche3bis4
June 20th, 2014, 06:21 PM
A bad Picture (Screen-Shot) will not better when he would edited, and a edited bad Picture (Screen-Shot) will not better because he is changed with editing, thats my mind. Hope you understand me ;).

Nice Greetings

Epo:)

ARhian7
June 20th, 2014, 06:52 PM
A bad Picture (Screen-Shot) will not better when he would edited, and a edited bad Picture (Screen-Shot) will not better because he is changed with editing, thats my mind. Hope you understand me ;).

Nice Greetings

Epo:)

:) Yes, but it will give those folk who want to edit of showing off their skills and compete against each other. Same for the folk who want to compete against unedited screenshots. I can see a lot of fun happening in the option of having to vote for the two choices. Great stuff

H222
June 21st, 2014, 09:26 PM
The Discussion is unnecessary for me. I give my vote for a good Picture, edited or not. It's all the same for me.

Greetings
Epo:)

+2

Considering most competitions don't get that many entries, 2 winners is one too many. If you can use your surveyor skills, other content creator's skills, angles, lighting, asset placement and prototypical expertise to persuade voters, why shouldn't you be able to use your photoshop skills too?

It's fine the way it is and to intentionally not vote for some screenshots just because they use photoshop is ruining the competition.

Is this your way of saying "I can't do photoshop so you shouldn't be allowed to either"?

Jamie

ARhian7
June 21st, 2014, 10:13 PM
+2

Is this your way of saying "I can't do photoshop so you shouldn't be allowed to either"?

Jamie
I can use photoshop but chose not.

Deneban has come up with a good idea. Two winners is not too many, one for edited and one for original screenshot.
What's the problem...not up for the challenge?

Falcus
June 23rd, 2014, 05:55 AM
If you can use your surveyor skills, other content creator's skills, angles, lighting, asset placement and prototypical expertise to persuade voters, why shouldn't you be able to use your photoshop skills too?

The point I think Deneban and the other fellow that originally brought the topic up, would be because it would seem to be outside of what would naturally be considered with-in the bounds of an unspoken agreement about what exactly the competition would be meant to include.... You don't bring a Moped to a Foot race, or a Camera to a Painting Competition kind of thing..... Hence the discussion.....

We've heard alot of two arguements so far:(To summarize)
1:Its a Trainz Screenshot competition, not a Trains Photo Competition, and;
2:Why can't we do what we've always done which is whatever we want as long its "the best"

So, my next questions then, would have to include:
1: How would the community at large prefer to view, conduct, or participate in these competitions? Are most people ok with the status quo? Or should we start trying to define the differences we want to see?
2:If the latter, what would those differences be?

IE, instead of grumping about "Jeebies, CHANGE, OMG w/e is the world coming to?!", why don't we try aiming the discussion toward what we'd like to see and why.....

My own suggestion would be either the current status quo and let the community decide for itself at a later date what exact example of what it finds unacceptable should be;
Or to take a moderate line with either easy to follow rules (Something like 100% Trainz in the photo, and the photo should be of the same screenshot, but you can edit whatever is in the photo all you want), or some kind of pro-active category for Edited "Images" (This could take forms too numerous for me to list here atm).

The problem with the latter though is that it will require extra work, presumably on Nick's shoulders, and therefor it would be up to him to attempt it, and to further complicate the issue, it would also be up to the community to generate the interest (Ahrian's exemplary enthusiasm not withstanding, bravo fellow, btw, though perhaps I might recommend not being quite so confrontational? These would be people you could prospectively be competing against later and they may not be so understanding about it if you needlessly anger them now. Id rather see a competition as you described then another pointless flame war).

Anyway, hope this is at least food for thought,
Falcus

clam1952
June 23rd, 2014, 06:37 AM
Probably best to leave things as they are, If people don't like doctored screenshots, which are mostly fairly obvious to spot, then they won't vote for them.

rickf77
June 23rd, 2014, 08:16 AM
I'm thinking like Malc up there. I do like the idea of folks showing me their work the way I would see it if I was to download it. I also enjoy seeing their "doctoring up" skills. I'm sure it's not an easy thing to learn and then you would need some artistic talent also.

Thanks to a bud, I no longer have to crop my shots. So, I'll be sending in "virgins"! Untouched beauties! If I can find any!

Cheers....Rick

ARhian7
June 23rd, 2014, 05:32 PM
though perhaps I might recommend not being quite so confrontational?
Falcus

Is this what you mean "What's the problem .....not up for the challenge?" - ouch, wasn't my intention, but just a question, however I do see looking from another view point how it does look confrontational :( . I will proof read more carefully in the future.

SETXRailfan
June 23rd, 2014, 10:52 PM
Probably best to leave things as they are, If people don't like doctored screenshots, which are mostly fairly obvious to spot, then they won't vote for them.
My problem is that people DO vote for them.

With the right editing, you can make any hum-drum screenshot on a boring route look better than even the best unedited shots. No filters should be allowed.

SETXR

H222
June 24th, 2014, 12:50 AM
So your problem is with people liking edited screenshots? How does them voting for unedited screenshots affect you in any way? If they're voting for an edited "hum-drum" screenshot instead of your apparently "best unedited shot", then what's stopping you from editing yours to one-up the "hum-drum" contestant? If you do not want to edit your entries for any reason, that's fine. But don't go around shouting for everyone else to do the same like a spoilt brat.

Some of the comments in here just reek of jealously and incompetence. Just because you cannot or do not want to learn a useful skill doesn't mean everyone else needs to be dragged down to your level of mediocrity.

Arguing over a banal, pedantic issue like the absolute definition of "Screenshot" is laughably childish. Do you also weigh your Quarter Pounder burgers when you go to McDonalds?

trainboi1
June 24th, 2014, 01:33 AM
I think the best(and also most obviously flawed) idea is to have two competitions. If we had enough competitors in both categories then we could, as has been suggested, have two competitions. However, we don't have enough competitors to support two different competitions, and so this doesn't really work. Such a maneuver could potentially kill SSotW altogether.
Now comes my main idea:
A) I can say I am of German descent because I am about 12.5% German. This allows me to bear a German surname and trace my history back to rural Germany in the late 1800's when many folks were coming to the new world. Nobody really tells me that I'm not from that line, and nor do they deny a friend of mine her right to a property near here because she's only about 12.5% descended from the original co-founder of the site.
B) The average heavily edited Trainz screenshot is only about 20% edited from the original. 80% or more of the work is still done by Trainz, and at least 80% of the image is what you actually see.
C) Though the human accepted level of 12.5% is a little low, could we not say that an 80% still passes as a "screenshot"?
D) It doesn't take image editing to made a bad route look good, I've seen it done on many a route. It just takes good composition, and that's what the SSotW is all about. I've known people who make modules specially for it, and what you see in one screenshot is what you get.
E) The rules of SSotW do not disallow filters, if you don't like it, you don't have to vote for it, as has been stated. What other people want to vote for is their choice, but if you want to boycott it yourself, go ahead. But you'll be working against your own goal, as you'll be discouraging Trainzers from both sides of the argument. If you sit back, it can grow, and eventually it may actually have enough participants to split into two categories. But if you boycott it, it may slow down, and you'll be detracting from the fairness by arguing for it.
F) I don't know about you all but I can generally make a good guess about what the original screenshot looked like, and in doing so I can grade on how well it is composed and how well it is edited. This isn't unfair, it's simply adding another category of judgement, and that actually goes both ways because the only difference is that unedited has one less detail to look over, and so it's just like making every piece count for more. There is no advantage here, because the editors have to do more work, and it doesn't always(or even usually) make a screenshot look any better, at least in my opinion. All I see is that the creator is treating a screenshot as they would a photo.
G) My father applies blur, HDR, black and white, sepia, tinted, sharpening and many other filters to his photos, and nobody says they aren't photos. Is there any reason that a simulator should be more pure than the real world? After all, that goes against the simulator's main goals of realism. If editing is allowed for the more popular act of photography, why should we restrict it?
H) H222, yes, it is very silly. Especially because this cannot really be settled with facts, and for some reason, these people are being far more anal about virtual reality than real life, and strictly speaking, those levels should be even. If there's something I don't care about in real life, I don't care about it virtually. But this is rather ridiculous, and so somebody needs to come along and explain the above 7 points as to why not to discriminate.

Timothetoolman
June 24th, 2014, 01:44 AM
I think I should also point out that this starts the argument of those who have the best Photoshop skills vs those who have the most high-end of machines to run Trainz, meaning all settings are turned up to 11. I don't have the best machine out there, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if my PC is on the lower end of the spectrum (its closing on 7 years now with few updates), so I like to use Photoshop to edit images just to bring them up to the standard that you can get automatically from high-end machines. It sounds to me as if those who are against the use of editing software are either a) high-end computer users or b) have no experience with image editing software, no matter how basic.

I think the use of image editing software should be allowed if that is the poster's preference. As Jamie has said previously using software like Photoshop doesn't always improve the image. It's hard to find images these days that haven't been manipulated in some form, not including cropping and such. To get the best out of an image, you start with your base (i.e. the contents of your image like trains, terrain etc) and it that's as far as it could go, but some people just like to go the extra mile and run it through some filters. I have been playing with the in-game settings more to improve lighting etc, but as we know Trainz can only go so far, and in order to get a little more realism out of it, it may mean hitting the Adobe folder to make it just more epic.

To me a screenshot is a screenshot, regardless of contents or how much editing its gone through. After all, its still Trainz, and if this competition is meant to bring the best out of Trainz users, perhaps it shows that some participants are willing to go just that much further to achieve perfection. And besides, its the voter's choice who wins, not the entrants.

Tim

NIARTcar
June 24th, 2014, 02:21 AM
I think I should also point out that this starts the argument of those who have the best Photoshop skills vs those who have the most high-end of machines to run Trainz, meaning all settings are turned up to 11. I don't have the best machine out there, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if my PC is on the lower end of the spectrum (its closing on 7 years now with few updates), so I like to use Photoshop to edit images just to bring them up to the standard that you can get automatically from high-end machines. It sounds to me as if those who are against the use of editing software are either a) high-end computer users or b) have no experience with image editing software, no matter how basic.
Tim

That is an interesting point, but from my perspective I don't see much skill in photoshop needed to get good results. Rule No. 1 for me has always been that a good crop can do wonders for a screenshot. Fuzzy ground textures and unnecessary objects clutter a shot, crop them out and it cleans it up considerable. Before anything else, I make sure to take a good portion of the bottom of a ground level shot off, just to get rid of that glaring patch of land you seem to get framing the bottom of every pic taken in game. Add that to the knowledge of the photography's rule of thirds, and you have 80% of what you need to know to make a great screenshot.

Color touch ups for me are my big irritation. While I don't have any problem with them simply, I get a little more upset when people don't realize how much function they can get playing with the light functions in surveyor. You can spend all the time you want changing the color values in a photo editing program, but I always feel your time is better spent playing with the lighting features in game. When it comes down to it, the difference between a good route and an amazing route very much can come down to something as simple as creating a realistic day night lighting cycle in surveyor.

I really think there should be no problem with people photo editing screenshot competition work, it is hardly a high competition that would demand strict regulations like this. Personally, I simply care whether or not the work is considered tasteful. Don't just slop effects on heavily and hope something sticks, plan out what your end goal is with the picture and aim to achieve a believable and pleasant effect. And always remember, less is more.

Pretty sure that 90% of my post was just rambling. :o

Falcus
June 25th, 2014, 10:26 PM
As I was the one to bring percentages into this, I feel I should clarify a few things.

When I say "Less then 100% Trainz", I meant specifically when you have hacked part of the picture out and replaced it with another picture all together... To use the above "Human" Metaphor, I'm talking Frankenstein, not Heritage . If you view humans through different lenses, Panoramic, Rose colored, w/e, you only change their appearance however. If you change their clothes, you also change their appearance. IE, just because you make your shot sharper or remove TS's poor ability to differentiate between distance, doesn't mean the shot isn't still 100% Trainz. Even if you B&W it, or Sepia, or make it brighter etc etc.

Its once you start indiscriminately hacking them up together when you start to have issues. As flawed as this metaphor is really, for what I'm trying to demonstrate, maybe that will work better. My personal issues do not include, nor do I believe many here see that (Indeed, I have yet to see a single person mention *Specifically*), "Filters, Crops, or Lighting changes" as "Unacceptable"......

Rather, until someone steps in and makes their opinions more clear on this point (And though I'm sure some here do believe them unacceptable), I think the biggest issue most of the people that object to "Editing" is the idea that you might remove a mountain that was in your shot and replace it with a picture of a Mountain from the internet... A Hill, A Beach, a Road, a Car, w/e...... And that I believe is what most people here would object to the most. Once you remove the 10% of the shot that was taken up by the 32 Bit Car on the road at the crossing in your shot and replaced it with a pic of your favorite Camero, or the 25% that was the Painstakingly molded but poorly textured mountain to replace it with a shot of your local favorite Mountain..... Then its no longer 100% trains, but 65% Trainz, 35% whatever else you dug up off your HD or the Internet.

Falcus

deneban
June 26th, 2014, 02:16 PM
Gentlemen,

Looks like there has been at least a preliminary determination by an N3V person:

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?112530-Screenshot-of-The-Week-June-15-to-June-22-2014-(No-Theme)&p=1302554#post1302554


As it stands, we see no issue with edited screenshots being shown in the competitions, it's up to the voters to vote for those they think are the best. We will display the winner in the newsletter irrespective of it being edited or not. If you think an image isn't appropriate, it is your decision to not vote for them.

The tense appears to envelope the near term.

IMHO, with this stance, N3V is not putting its best foot forward in that: a) these contests, advertize in the Trainz newsletters, distill down to an event partially Trainz, and more importantly, b) demonstrates a casual use of terminology (i.e. "screenshot" rather than "image") in their promotional advertising.

PerRock
June 29th, 2014, 09:31 PM
Gentlemen,

Looks like there has been at least a preliminary determination by an N3V person:

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?112530-Screenshot-of-The-Week-June-15-to-June-22-2014-(No-Theme)&p=1302554#post1302554



The tense appears to envelope the near term.

IMHO, with this stance, N3V is not putting its best foot forward in that: a) these contests, advertize in the Trainz newsletters, distill down to an event partially Trainz, and more importantly, b) demonstrates a casual use of terminology (i.e. "screenshot" rather than "image") in their promotional advertising.

Do you realize how many other games release official screenshots (and I'm not talking about competitions, like advertising screensots) that are edited?

Almost all of them.

peter

nicky9499
June 29th, 2014, 09:38 PM
You must be kidding, Peter. I thought TS12 would look like this on my PC!

http://images.n3vgames.com/ecommerce/headers/2.jpg

Regardless, SSoTW is not an exercise in advertising or promotional material so all references to that are moot.

ulmer94
June 29th, 2014, 09:57 PM
Just to throw my two cents in....I didn't add anything to my shot, which was the one that apparently started all this mess. I blended the water and shoreline a little bit and tried to clean up the abrupt end on the mountain backdrop; a bit of adjusting with the color saturation and added a stained photo paper texture, and that's all I did. The waves and stuff were all in the original unedited screenshot. I have done more to some of my shots and no one made a fuss until now...

Basically, I have to say that if you don't like it, don't vote for it. If people - including me - find that their "retouched" shots don't get votes, maybe they'll try something else. But I don't see how this discussion all got started with my shot when I know other folks have posted obviously edited shots, some gorgeous with just the right effect, some absolutely ghastly with lens flare, et cetera, and nobody griped or groused. I'm not the first and I surely won't be the last.

Cheers :)

deneban
June 30th, 2014, 07:36 AM
Do you realize how many other games release official screenshots (and I'm not talking about competitions, like advertising screensots) that are edited? Almost all of them. peter

Hi Peter, agree w/Nicky thats a different animal. Insofar as my statement - There is a difference between advertising software with augmented screenshots and publishing press releases with a misnomer/mischaracterization in the verbiage. A conscientious company strives for best accuracy in public releases: one element perceived as inaccurate by the reader can reduce his/her credibility of the balance of the release. Word accuracy is much more objective than picture accuracy.

BobCass
July 27th, 2014, 02:54 PM
Well there are several ways too look at this problem..But I think the Decision should be made by N3V..It is there Forum..It is there newsletter that they distribute..It is there promotional Idea in the First Place..What do you think??

nicky9499
July 27th, 2014, 09:33 PM
I think that this horse was flogged to death long ago.

deneban
July 29th, 2014, 10:51 AM
Well there are several ways too look at this problem..But I think the Decision should be made by N3V..It is there Forum..It is there newsletter that they distribute..It is there promotional Idea in the First Place..What do you think??I don't think they've put their best foot forward on the related press releases for the reasons expressed in the finale of post #46.

BobCass
July 31st, 2014, 08:20 PM
You know, my greatest fear of this Competition will now turn into "Can you Top This"..I can Photoshop better then you..

nicky9499
July 31st, 2014, 09:08 PM
This is really getting tiring.

Now, just in case you haven't read past the thread title:


The Discussion is unnecessary for me. I give my vote for a good Picture, edited or not. It's all the same for me.

Greetings
Epo:)


+2

Considering most competitions don't get that many entries, 2 winners is one too many. If you can use your surveyor skills, other content creator's skills, angles, lighting, asset placement and prototypical expertise to persuade voters, why shouldn't you be able to use your photoshop skills too?

Jamie


using software like Photoshop doesn't always improve the image

To me a screenshot is a screenshot, regardless of contents or how much editing its gone through. After all, its still Trainz, and if this competition is meant to bring the best out of Trainz users, perhaps it shows that some participants are willing to go just that much further to achieve perfection. And besides, its the voter's choice who wins, not the entrants.

Tim



E) The rules of SSotW do not disallow filters, if you don't like it, you don't have to vote for it, as has been stated. What other people want to vote for is their choice, but if you want to boycott it yourself, go ahead. But you'll be working against your own goal, as you'll be discouraging Trainzers from both sides of the argument. If you sit back, it can grow, and eventually it may actually have enough participants to split into two categories. But if you boycott it, it may slow down, and you'll be detracting from the fairness by arguing for it.
F) I don't know about you all but I can generally make a good guess about what the original screenshot looked like, and in doing so I can grade on how well it is composed and how well it is edited. This isn't unfair, it's simply adding another category of judgement, and that actually goes both ways because the only difference is that unedited has one less detail to look over, and so it's just like making every piece count for more. There is no advantage here, because the editors have to do more work, and it doesn't always(or even usually) make a screenshot look any better, at least in my opinion. All I see is that the creator is treating a screenshot as they would a photo.

deneban
July 31st, 2014, 09:19 PM
Many good points were made from both sides, it was a healthy discussion, and everyone got to speak their peace.

mezzoprezzo
August 1st, 2014, 03:57 AM
~snip~ ... and everyone got to speak their peace.
I got the impression that not every post was peaceful.:o

My piece has now been spoken.

Except for these last two lines, which have had some image editing (text size and colour), this post has not been photo-shopped.
Feel free to ignore it. :D