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klambert
September 3rd, 2013, 03:04 PM
A thought that's just occurred is the amount of people still using trainz 2006, simply why? I'm going to get flamed for writing this but I much prefer using TS10, the Auran JET graphics engine has been slightly improved, everything looks crisper and better and I like the speed treez. It just irritates me the amount of people that when you release something, they make a request for a backdated version. Why are some users still using a game that's over 7 years old? I know some games are timeless like Simcity 4 and Railroad Tycoon, but Trainz 2006 hasn't aged well, most simulators rarely do (unless it's the Sims). Some of the pixels in Trainz 06 are like the size of a human fist.


But getting back on track, why do these people refuse to update? I mean it must be a pain in the backside with all this brilliant content that has been released being unavailable to download because you're still stuck in the 'good ol days when N3V was called Auran and all their stuff seemed to magically work without any dodgy patches needed, blah, blah, blah ...' Get with the times! I know my copy of trainz is 3 years old now which in computer terms is practically Victorian, but I'd rather use something that was Victorian rather than Stone Age.


So to conclude my rant about the Trainz 2006 Luddites; get with the times!

Yes I'm fully aware that my forum thingy says I've used trainz 2006, but that was back then.

n8phu
September 3rd, 2013, 03:08 PM
Many people have lower end or older computers and don't want or can not afford to upgrade computers and/or the Trainz program.

Some people are just comfortable with 2006 and choose not to upgrade.

Lastly, there are those who pirated it and well..... upgrading really isn't an option.

paulhobbs
September 3rd, 2013, 03:16 PM
A better question would be why are you still using TS10? That's practically the same as TS09 with more content and that's nearly 5 years old now... Answer that and you'll probably answer your own question.

Paul

RRSignal
September 3rd, 2013, 03:26 PM
Everybody has their reasons. Newer isn't always better and, even if it is, the cons sometimes outweigh the pros. Some of us actually put some thought into our needs and expectations rather than blindly upgrading. Unfortunately, the software industry relies heavily on the mindless lemming approach to upgrading, and Trainz is no exception.

klambert
September 3rd, 2013, 04:27 PM
A better question would be why are you still using TS10? That's practically the same as TS09 with more content and that's nearly 5 years old now... Answer that and you'll probably answer your own question.

Paul

I'm still using TS10 because it's not dramatically different to the later versions of TS12, and the vast majority of content on the DLS can still be used on TS10, I'll upgrade when necessary, for example when it starts looking dated. I originally stopped using Trainz 06 for that reason.

klambert
September 3rd, 2013, 04:29 PM
Everybody has their reasons. Newer isn't always better and, even if it is, the cons sometimes outweigh the pros. Some of us actually put some thought into our needs and expectations rather than blindly upgrading. Unfortunately, the software industry relies heavily on the mindless lemming approach to upgrading, and Trainz is no exception.

Blindly upgrading? Yes that is what put me off of getting TS12 but TS10 is that perfect mix of where it's well established but not yet dated.

torino72
September 3rd, 2013, 05:06 PM
I still use 2006 because most of my route building occurred in 2006 and I've found no reason to "reinvent the wheel" to get everything over into later versions. I like 2006 and find it easier to use than the later versions. I have a "high end" gaming PC and it works well without the low fraps problems of older PCs. If I could fix any one thing in 2006 it would be the sound issues. The later versions have/had their own sound related issues as well. Specifically, I use the talking defect detectors in 2006. You cannot hear them unless you navigate far enough away from the train for them to become audible. Any other sound issues in 2006 are no big deal to me. 2006 was also know for it's losing of the assets.tdx file and it talking so long to rebuild it. I fixed that with TADMON (the dos based utility someone released years ago that I also use with 2010). I've lost some TDX files but have not had to allow Trainz to rebuild one in over three years. I've set TADMON to keep a backup of the last 20 TDX files and that has proven sufficient to prevent Trainz from having to rebuild a lost TDX file. Trainz makes a disaster of rebuilding the TDX file. And, to this point, I've been able to backdate 99% of the newer content to work in 2006 so I'm not losing out on the new content as long as it works in 2010 and I can download it.

sparky15
September 3rd, 2013, 05:20 PM
I use it to build and operate routes. Not chase content errors all day. I also prefer the older trees from Trunda. My computer is old, but, it runs everything I need it to. I'm not upgrading it for one game.*

289v8
September 3rd, 2013, 05:55 PM
Post Deleted.

stagecoach
September 3rd, 2013, 05:57 PM
You would be surprised how many people still use 2004 for its simplicity.

trainman7616
September 3rd, 2013, 06:15 PM
My question is. Why should it even matter if people use 2006? Some still use UTC and 2004. If they choose that game on their own then obviously thats their choice and they have reasons to do so just like you had reasons to get 2010. So again. Why does it matter that they use 2006 instead of 2009 - 2012? And for the record I use 2006 - 2012. I dont want your reply to this. This is just fact and opinion vs. personal preference.

rgcx
September 3rd, 2013, 06:58 PM
The other day I experienced a power outage at my house. Would you like to guess which system was up and running in 3 min and which one required an EDR for 45 min?

cascaderailroad
September 3rd, 2013, 09:20 PM
Everybody has their reasons. Newer isn't always better and, even if it is, the cons sometimes outweigh the pros. Some of us actually put some thought into our needs and expectations rather than blindly upgrading. Unfortunately, the software industry relies heavily on the mindless lemming approach to upgrading, and Trainz is no exception.

TRS2006 has no complicated layers ... surveyor is simple to lay track in ... the framerates in TRS2006 work well on low end integrated graphics PC's ...09.10, 12 do none of these things !

Sometimes ... something new ... is not so good !

Don't knock old programs ! That still work great !

I am not a mindless lemming ! (They are so cute ... but not so smart) !

lol; https://www.google.com/search?q=lemming&client=firefox-a&hs=BJP&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=-p4mUtL-FpHcsATp5oDgDQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1297&bih=657

http://up.vbiran.ir/images/ah0vuubjluue5oekera9.jpg

bentrain14
September 3rd, 2013, 10:09 PM
Just think, I used to be huge with trainz 2006. It was fun, easy, and a good collectible. nNot to mention that it didnt make a big deal out of patching and it worked right out of the box. But I like to stay up to date. If and when auran releases a new version of trainz, Im going to get it.

sparky15
September 3rd, 2013, 10:13 PM
You'll still get the same program with new error checking routines and DLS access.
Not much more.

NSWGR_46Class
September 3rd, 2013, 10:46 PM
I get far better frame rates on my old banger using TS12 than I ever did with any of the older versions

This would be due to the error checking in the newer versions as the biggest killer of frame rates is bad content and in early versions of trainz you have no idea which or if any content is bad or causing performance issues.

I never use the layer functions its there but you do not have to use it if you chose not to.


TRS2006 has no complicated layers ... surveyor is simple to lay track in ... the framerates in TRS2006 work well on low end integrated graphics PC's ...09.10, 12 do none of these things !

Sometimes ... something new ... is not so good !

Don't knock old programs ! That still work great !

I am not a mindless lemming ! (They are so cute ... but not so smart) !

RRSignal
September 3rd, 2013, 11:46 PM
I get far better frame rates on my old banger using TS12 than I ever did with any of the older versions

This would be due to the error checking in the newer versions as the biggest killer of frame rates is bad content and in early versions of trainz you have no idea which or if any content is bad or causing performance issues.

I never use the layer functions its there but you do not have to use it if you chose not to.

Um, nooo.....

Ok, let's say, just for the sake of argument, that the enhanced error-checking has some validity. And it does. And it doesn't.

Data optimization (sanity, cleansing) is ideal for any product. Were it not that we are dealing with an 11+year old engine, one cold argue that it's idea. But, being that the Trainz/Jet engine is a dinosaur (to put it kindly), every little bit helps. That's why there is such a huge emphasis on "proper" content creation where that emphasis was pretty much non-existent before.

Also, there is a huge difference between "what helps" and what the game is checking for. All the groundwork for "what helps" was laid in TS2009.

There are a few legitimate cases where the cleaner optimization of TS2009+ work. For instance, older versions of the game allowed missing textures to be stored in subdirectories (subfolder), requiring an extremely expensive (for a performance standpoint) search, even if those subdirectories were located directly below that of the asset in question. In the vast majority of cases, the optimizations are none at best: rejecting a tag in config.txt serves no purpose.

hauntedclipp
September 4th, 2013, 12:05 AM
It's not by choice for me. My current computer refuses to run anything newer than 06.
I'd love to upgrade to '10 with all the wonderful content available, but it's just not possible for me with this computer.

klambert
September 4th, 2013, 08:26 AM
Ok a lot of people have said they refuse to upgrade because their computer wouldn't be able to handle the game, well I've been using a Dell Dimension E520 which is 6 years old and has run and continues to run TS10 quite well, in fact it operates TS10 better than it operated TS06.

johnwhelan
September 4th, 2013, 08:40 AM
I think the improved error checking in TS12 is well worth the hassles yes we have some Sketchup content that can kill anything, perhaps TRS2006 has an advantage in that most of the Sketchup content arrived after TRS2006.

Performance on older hardware, the later versions can use dual core or hyperthreading and put more work down to the GPU plus you can use more than 2 gigs of memory if you run 64 bit windows. Realistically you should be into 64 bit Win 7 or Vista these days as a minimum rather than XP but there is still a lot of 32 bit XP around. One issue with the later versions is that some of the newer content is more demanding but if you stay with the less demanding content you should get better frames rates with the later versions running the same content.

Also don't underestimate inertia, what I've got works why should I upgrade? Well the normal mapped new items look a lot better and there is more content available for the later versions, plus most current content creators have learnt a bit more about how to get the most of of Trainz, ie better performance. Initially a lot of content was showing errors but as the DLS gets cleaned up this is much less of a problem. Then you have scripts, in the earlier versions these could interact and crash Trainz in the later versions they are bit more more stable.

Cheerio John

boleyd
September 4th, 2013, 09:54 AM
2006 uses dated scenery. I have an obsession with how something looks. It helps me to suspend belief and pretend I have a real railroad under my control. I spend more time "decorating" a route than using it for trains. It is possible, with work, to get a visually realistic route that offers the illusion of watching real trains in operation. I never drive a train since the view from a cab looks "odd" to me. If I want to experience braking, wheel-slip, horns sounds, keeping to a schedule, etc. I get in my car and drive into a city. UK..

Ts2012 can be partially tamed by blocking the SpeedTree DLLs in the User Data area/plugins. Then use clam1952 trees. The Replace function is a big help before blocking the DLLs. Then set the frame rate to 25. Now stutters and pauses are "reduced". I now am able to load up trees, bushes, well textured buildings (not the simple spray paints) plus lots of grass splines.

I found that sometimes you start a TS2012 route and the stuttering is beyond belief. However, if you restart the route the very few stutters become tolerable given what it was without the above changes. The initial stuttering is "probably" due to the program grabbing scenery, etc within a specified area and caching it if it can't find it already existing in the Data Cache. If you change routes a lot of stuff has to be cached. If you restart a route not much has to cached. Eliminate the SpeedTrees and it ain't so bad.

So, back to why stay with TS2006? For me the altered TS2012 is now working within reason. The visuals, which are important to me, are much much better. The latest assets are outstanding, if they are textured and not just spray painted with bright colors. The new clam1952 trees look great and bring back the Tundra look we all liked from the 2006 era. Lots of excellent splines of grass and other items are great in TS2012. Therefore, I would never return to "days of old".

cascaderailroad
September 4th, 2013, 01:37 PM
TRS2006 is good enough for me, for testing on my antiquated PC ... If I hit the lottery, I will install TS10 ... and maybe even buy TS12 so that I can drive the NKP Nickel' Plate Road (miss speeled caboose) !

If not for the NKP DLC, that and only that, is driving me toward upgrading to TS12, nothing else but that is really worth :mop::udrool::mop: about !

paulhobbs
September 4th, 2013, 02:01 PM
In the vast majority of cases, the optimizations are none at best: rejecting a tag in config.txt serves no purpose.
That would, I assume, be a wild guess on your part. Rejecting invalid tags has no purpose? Even if the tag is spelt wrong and the asset doesn't behave as expected? I think I would rather trust the guys who are actually writing the code to know what's best for the sim if you don't mind.

Paul

johnwhelan
September 4th, 2013, 03:12 PM
That would, I assume, be a wild guess on your part. Rejecting invalid tags has no purpose? Even if the tag is spelt wrong and the asset doesn't behave as expected? I think I would rather trust the guys who are actually writing the code to know what's best for the sim if you don't mind.

Paul

Judging by the reaction I got from time to time if I used the words "I'm a programmer trust me." I'm not certain programmers are the most trusted souls but in this particular case I would agree most assets with misspelt tags do run smoother with the tags corrected although I'm not certain many content creators even know what the tags mean, they just cut and paste from something similar.

Cheerio John

RRSignal
September 4th, 2013, 06:52 PM
That would, I assume, be a wild guess on your part. Rejecting invalid tags has no purpose? Even if the tag is spelt wrong and the asset doesn't behave as expected? I think I would rather trust the guys who are actually writing the code to know what's best for the sim if you don't mind.

Paul

Um, no, it's not a wild guess, but thank you once again for not contributing anything helpful. Please tell me how breaking an asset, for, say, failing to include a thumbnail or a misspelled thumbnail helps performance? Based on your extensive coding experience, of course. http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/forums/images/smilies/eyeroll.gif

johnwhelan
September 4th, 2013, 07:05 PM
Um, no, it's not a wild guess, but thank you once again for not contributing anything helpful. Please tell me how breaking an asset, for, say, failing to include a thumbnail or a misspelled thumbnail helps performance? Based on your extensive coding experience, of course. http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/forums/images/smilies/eyeroll.gif

No thumbnail means you can't see what they look like. In order to be able to use something it helps if you have a thumbnail but from recent memory it isn't a requirement for TS12 if I'm creating something just if its missing in the thumbnail tag.

Cheerio John

RRSignal
September 4th, 2013, 08:05 PM
No thumbnail means you can't see what they look like. In order to be able to use something it helps if you have a thumbnail but from recent memory it isn't a requirement for TS12 if I'm creating something just if its missing in the thumbnail tag.

Cheerio John

Keeping in mind that the thumbnail was just an example of a tag that does not contribute to performance, I agree that in an ideal world, thumbnails should be used. I love them myself. But, they have nothing to do directly with game performance or stability. I just checked my beta build of TS12 and it does error if the image file is not included, though, you're right, a thumbnail container is not a requirement yet and the problem is, as some others have noted in the past, this breaks assets where it probably would have sufficed to issue a warning instead.

johnwhelan
September 4th, 2013, 08:35 PM
Keeping in mind that the thumbnail was just an example of a tag that does not contribute to performance, I agree that in an ideal world, thumbnails should be used. I love them myself. But, they have nothing to do directly with game performance or stability. I just checked my beta build of TS12 and it does error if the image file is not included, though, you're right, a thumbnail container is not a requirement yet and the problem is, as some others have noted in the past, this breaks assets where it probably would have sufficed to issue a warning instead.

Normally if there is a mistake in the file name etc for the thumbnail tag its a simple fix as you mentioned but it can indicate a missing { so its worth flagging. I recall using tafweb's tool in TRS2004 to find and fix errors in TRS2004 so nothing much has changed except these days I see slightly fewer errors on the DLS. I certainly recall having to edit every config.txt file of more than one content creator because they couldn't spell the tag names. At least now the DLS clean up means only one person has to edit the config.txt files to sort them out.

Cheerio John

sparky15
September 4th, 2013, 08:42 PM
I use Trainz to build every little model railroad that strikes my fancy. Its what I use the program for. Did the Blender thing last Winter. While I have a good grasp of it, drove me nuts. I didn't enjoy it. Winter is coming again, may give it another shot. With that said, I'm an end user and personal route builder. I have stacks of magazines with routes waiting to be built and operated, my fun in this.*
For those of you who want the latest and greatest, go for it. I can't argue the content details. This pushes this down to the GPU, this tag wastes cycles....... All fun and games for some, headache for us end users. I think its cool N3V wants to clean content up. Dirty pool they dropped it on the community to figure out with no help from them. PEV deserves a cut of every game sold in my opinion. Us laymen would have been lost without him. This content clean up should have been done before new versions of the game sold. All they did was cheese us end users off to the point of tossing the game. I want to build routes, not play IT guy.
As of now I have the Mac version installed with no downloads short of Maddy's roads. Enough built in to keep me busy for years. My Windows install has TRS2006, TC with the JA files from Trainz Driver and a copy of TC with all built in removed and content stolen from 06 and Driver. Add in 5 GB of downloaded content over the years, I'm golden there as well. No need for the DLS.*
While I have JointedRail payware, it sits on a disc. No snub to them, not chasing the newer version error and DLS game to use it. Those CSX units Nikos painted up serve me well along with older RRMods stuff. I abhor Speedtrees, Profig helped, Clam put some decent billboards up but none come close to Trunda for ME.*
I dabble with the Mac version. Winter I'm into the older versions, summer is too short to play computer games. I use what works best for me. Even if I bought a new fancy computer, I prefer the older content. One of my 4 board wonders might have 5 trains running at the same time. Older versions handle it, newer does not. Newer versions stutter like crazy and the glass look of content is distracting. The old CP Geeps are fine as I sit at a signal waiting for them to pass.*
Two things. How do you turn off autosave that puts these asteriks in my posts and if anyone has the original Ohio Southern track plan from 1976...........

Jananton
September 5th, 2013, 04:47 AM
Um, no, it's not a wild guess, but thank you once again for not contributing anything helpful. Please tell me how breaking an asset, for, say, failing to include a thumbnail or a misspelled thumbnail helps performance? Based on your extensive coding experience, of course. http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/forums/images/smilies/eyeroll.gif
Hmm, let me give one hint, processor ticks. Everytime the trainz engine looks for something that isn't there, or is misspelled, or in case of thumbnails, the tag has just a name to please previous versions without an actual file present, a performance hit is taken during runtime because of this wild goose chase.

Greetings from sunny Amsterdam,

Jan

pcas1986
September 5th, 2013, 05:53 AM
Judging by the reaction I got from time to time if I used the words "I'm a programmer trust me." I'm not certain programmers are the most trusted souls

Hey, I resemble that. :D I used to be a programmer (software engineer, thank you) and I don't trust me.


... I but in this particular case I would agree most assets with misspelt tags do run smoother with the tags corrected although I'm not certain many content creators even know what the tags mean, they just cut and paste from something similar.

...
Well, I've done that because many times the WiKi does not explain well enough what some of these things do, or whether they are relevant in a given context.

But to answer the original question.

I loved TS2006 when it came out because, in my view, it was way better than the chunky TS04. And TS09 was better and so was TS10. TS12 would be better too if it were not so buggy in SP1. So I would go with TS10. I liked TS12 but my main complaint was the non functioning cab control in Driver (cab mode). That was fixed in SP1 but...

The only thing I liked about TS04 was the Ooom men.

Cheers

paulhobbs
September 5th, 2013, 06:01 AM
Um, no, it's not a wild guess, but thank you once again for not contributing anything helpful. Please tell me how breaking an asset, for, say, failing to include a thumbnail or a misspelled thumbnail helps performance? Based on your extensive coding experience, of course. http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/forums/images/smilies/eyeroll.gif
I’ll admit I haven’t contributed much in the way of wild speculation to this thread but then you are doing pretty well on your own.

If you want to talk about thumbnails fine. If the thumbnail container is missing or the bitmap itself is missing or misnamed then the asset is broken. It doesn’t behave as the user expects and it’s an error, no question in my mind.

You claim that if the thumbnail can’t be found then it has no impact on the sim but I’d like to know how you know that if you don’t have access to the source code. You may be assuming that it’s not used in game but this is not true as if the 128x64 art file is missing then the thumbnails container is searched to find something else it can use instead. How does this affect the performance? I don’t know and neither do you and no amount of pretending you do know will change this.

Do you know how the thumbnail will be handled in the next version? Maybe it will be used more extensively in game, but only the programmers know that and they are best placed to define what is important and what isn’t.

As for my programming experience it is indeed extensive but again there is no way you could know that, so that is another instance of pretending to know more that you do. Actually I wonder why you are doing this, is it to somehow make yourself appear important? That’s certainly the only reason I can think of but it’s not working, at least as far as I’m concerned. All this is doing is reducing your credibility which will probably lead people to ignore what you have to say should you have a valid point to make which would be a pity.

Paul

RRSignal
September 5th, 2013, 09:28 AM
Iíll admit I havenít contributed much in the way of wild speculation to this thread but then you are doing pretty well on your own.

If you want to talk about thumbnails fine. If the thumbnail container is missing or the bitmap itself is missing or misnamed then the asset is broken. It doesnít behave as the user expects and itís an error, no question in my mind.

You claim that if the thumbnail canít be found then it has no impact on the sim but Iíd like to know how you know that if you donít have access to the source code. You may be assuming that itís not used in game but this is not true as if the 128x64 art file is missing then the thumbnails container is searched to find something else it can use instead. How does this affect the performance? I donít know and neither do you and no amount of pretending you do know will change this.

Do you know how the thumbnail will be handled in the next version? Maybe it will be used more extensively in game, but only the programmers know that and they are best placed to define what is important and what isnít.

As for my programming experience it is indeed extensive but again there is no way you could know that, so that is another instance of pretending to know more that you do. Actually I wonder why you are doing this, is it to somehow make yourself appear important? Thatís certainly the only reason I can think of but itís not working, at least as far as Iím concerned. All this is doing is reducing your credibility which will probably lead people to ignore what you have to say should you have a valid point to make which would be a pity.

Paul

I'm not a professional programmer, but I've done my fair share. Half of what I do these days is reverse-engineering other people's work looking for malware. Perhaps if you didn't assume you know it all, you'd realize that there are other people around here with tech backgrounds too.

Both from knowledge of coding and experience with Trainz, fixing assets, making assets, etc, what tags should/do impose a performance hit and what shouldn't/don't. If you had paid the slightest bit of attention to my original post, I mentioned that some tags - and errors involving them - do impose a runtime performance penalty if misspelled or incorrectly set. Many do not, and many (if not most) would not if default values were inserted, either by Trainz or preferably by CMP. Trainz already does this with a number of things e.g. trackdirections on a bridge or tunnel. No performance hit that I can see. As a result, enhanced optimization and error-checking will pay much bigger dividends for some tags and for others it will be minimal or nil.

I realize this will fall on deaf ears as you seem to think you have the answer to everything, but it may be of value to others.

RRSignal
September 5th, 2013, 09:44 AM
Hmm, let me give one hint, processor ticks. Everytime the trainz engine looks for something that isn't there, or is misspelled, or in case of thumbnails, the tag has just a name to please previous versions without an actual file present, a performance hit is taken during runtime because of this wild goose chase.

Greetings from sunny Amsterdam,

Jan

The game searches for a tag whether it's there or not, though. So there is that penalty. Then there is the penalty of trying to find and load the file that may or may not be there. It might be more efficient either not do the search at all, or to relegate the search to CMP, in which case CPU cycles are far less relevant than runtime during the game, and set a default if nothing is specified. The former is a preferable strategy for tags not immediately usable by the game (e.g. thumbnails) while the latter is a better approach for important, mission-critical tags. In the case of misspelled tags, sure, that wastes CPU cycles, so CMP should strip that out and throw a warning or error and set a default, if appropriate; this, of course, does not alleviate the content creator of all responsibility to do his job correctly.

JCitron
September 5th, 2013, 10:32 AM
The game searches for a tag whether it's there or not, though. So there is that penalty. Then there is the penalty of trying to find and load the file that may or may not be there. It might be more efficient either not do the search at all, or to relegate the search to CMP, in which case CPU cycles are far less relevant than runtime during the game, and set a default if nothing is specified. The former is a preferable strategy for tags not immediately usable by the game (e.g. thumbnails) while the latter is a better approach for important, mission-critical tags. In the case of misspelled tags, sure, that wastes CPU cycles, so CMP should strip that out and throw a warning or error and set a default, if appropriate; this, of course, does not alleviate the content creator of all responsibility to do his job correctly.

It's not so much the CPU cycles, which from my observations are minimal. TADDaemon is even quiet during game operation. It kicks in initially to start the game, but then sits idly on the side until needed. The game its self does very little with the CPU, surprisingly so. I thought it would be more CPU intensive, but it is not. What the worst culprit is turns out to be the constant disk I/O, caused by the game running. When the scenery is loaded, AI drivers are accessed or something is moved, the program has to go out to the disk and search for something, whether within the TDX file or in the multitude of hash directories, decompress the content within the hash directories, load the stuff into memory, then continue causes wasted time and interruptions.

Now keeping this in mind, this constant I/O is also impacting how the program threads are operating. This I think is a big part of the AI programming issues and is very apparent where there is a lot of content and other AI drivers. Seriously, do people only operate one tram on a city street, or have empty rail yards and mainlines? A few trains here and there, and a few trees and buildings don't cause a problem, but not all railroads operate in the middle of nowhere or at 5:30 in the morning. Most interesting rail operations take place where there are lots of buildings (scenery), track, and of course other trains. Trams usually operate on busy streets with lots of other trams, cars, people, buildings, and signals.

This content reading, analyzing, searching, and loading costs the game time, and time for us is what causes the stuttering and these I/O operations cause the awful stuttering, which I've said in another post is like being constantly poked in the ribs while trying to talk or do something else. The constant I/O drags down the system sometimes to a point of disgusting performance worse than that of a '486. Yes, turning off the Search Indexer from the N3V folders, disabling the network access (another issue too), and disabling the antivirus from scanning the Trainz data folders helps, but are not a complete fix. The problem lies somewhere before the system level and needs to be addressed.

John

RRSignal
September 5th, 2013, 10:54 AM
Agreed. I was getting a bit of stuttering last night and I have all that disabled/not installed, and running on an SSD no less! I seem to recall a thread in the last month or two in which Windwalkr acknowledged this - in particular, the less-than-optimal database design - but I got the vibe it wasn't high on the priority list. I'll see if I can find that thread...

JCitron
September 5th, 2013, 11:04 AM
Agreed. I was getting a bit of stuttering last night and I have all that disabled/not installed, and running on an SSD no less! I seem to recall a thread in the last month or two in which Windwalkr acknowledged this - in particular, the less-than-optimal database design - but I got the vibe it wasn't high on the priority list. I'll see if I can find that thread...

That would be an interesting read... I have one in the TS12 support forum. I had some crashing which I linked to my SoundBlaster card, but the research turned up my disk I/O studies.

John

clam1952
September 5th, 2013, 11:09 AM
Re Stuttering:
May be worth looking at jetlog.txt if getting over and above normal stuttering, for SpeedTree errors, such as failure to load shaders or branches or can't find whatever texture. Seems to be an intermittent thing that sometimes happens, well here anyway and then doesn't for a few days or weeks.

RRSignal
September 5th, 2013, 11:36 AM
I haven't found the thread I was thinking of, but am finding your thread about the ability to add comments to be an interesting read. I missed the back-and-forth between various software folks and N3V. The long and short of the thread I mentioned previously, though, is that N3V realizes that the current database management system i.e. lots of small files, each in individual subdirectories of subdirectories, is a big problem. If I find it, I'll post the link.

@Malc - It seems intermittent for me too when playing off the SSD. I'll take a look at jetlog if it happens again tonight.

paulhobbs
September 5th, 2013, 11:40 AM
If the record I'm not the one claiming to know everything and you asked me specifically how a faulty thumbnail container could affect the framerates. I told you what I thought about it and said I didn't know for sure. If you don't want to hear the answers don't ask the questions.

The game searches for a tag whether it's there or not, though. So there is that penalty. Then there is the penalty of trying to find and load the file that may or may not be there. It might be more efficient either not do the search at all, or to relegate the search to CMP, in which case CPU cycles are far less relevant than runtime during the game, and set a default if nothing is specified.
Bingo. You are are agreeing with me then? That's why you need error checking in CMP, so you don't do the checks at runtime.

The former is a preferable strategy for tags not immediately usable by the game (e.g. thumbnails) while the latter is a better approach for important, mission-critical tags. In the case of misspelled tags, sure, that wastes CPU cycles, so CMP should strip that out and throw a warning or error and set a default, if appropriate; this, of course, does not alleviate the content creator of all responsibility to do his job correctly.
I've already given you an example of where the sim might need to access the thumbnail once it is running. Again, I don't know what the code actually does and neither do you.

I tell you what, I'll continue to assume you don't know what you are talking about and put you on my ignore list. We'll both be a lot happer then.

Paul

RRSignal
September 5th, 2013, 11:51 AM
If the record I'm not the one claiming to know everything and you asked me specifically how a faulty thumbnail container could affect the framerates. I told you what I thought about it and said I didn't know for sure. If you don't want to hear the answers don't ask the questions.

Since you don't know, then, stop contributing your own wild speculation. At least try to make an informed, educated based on your background, which is all I'm doing. Backing it with observations, of course. There are plenty of folks here with programming and technical background who are better qualified to make a judgment about what might work and what might not work than you. In some cases, N3V has even conceded that those individuals are correct. Yet you still rant on.


I tell you what, I'll continue to assume you don't know what you are talking about and put you on my ignore list. We'll both be a lot happer then.

Please do.

paulhobbs
September 5th, 2013, 12:20 PM
Since you don't know, then, stop contributing your own wild speculation. At least try to make an informed, educated based on your background, which is all I'm doing. Backing it with observations, of course.
Which is exactly what I did.

There are plenty of folks here with programming and technical background who are better qualified to make a judgment about what might work and what might not work than you. In some cases, N3V has even conceded that those individuals are correct. Yet you still rant on.
Indeed, Jan for example who agreed with me. And then you agreed with him.


Please do.
Done.

Paul

RRSignal
September 5th, 2013, 12:26 PM
Which is exactly what I did.

Which is exactly what you DIDN'T do, and you admitted yourself that you have no idea what's going on. You seem to assume others are as lacking in knowledge.


Indeed, Jan for example who agreed with me. And then you agreed with him.

Erm, try READING what I wrote, rather than make assumptions. I mentioned some tags do have a strong effect on in-game performance. Some have little or none. I suggested possibly removing the checks for certain tags entirely, that aren't mission-critical or immediately germane to run-time operation, and letting CMP sort out tags or set defaults of its own, so that the game itself doesn't have to.


Done.

Thank you.

Paul[/QUOTE]

shaneturner12
September 5th, 2013, 01:11 PM
From my observations, certain missing files can cause problems. A missing thumbnail for example - this can cause issues when the game scans the asset's folder and cannot find it, it does incur an I/O cost in actually looking for the file in the first place (and I/O is a problem when it comes to Trainz anyway, as it has to traverse the folders of the assets both during runtime and whilst loading (and even in Content Manager) - have a look using Performance/Resource Monitor if you want to see what I mean.

Also, certain missing tags can cause other issues, although not necessarily in a runtime scope. A missing category-class tag, for example, causes CM to mis-categorise the asset (especially in TS12 SP1, where it appears that the 'kind' tag is not used as often in categorising the content).

In terms of whether later versions are better, from a content validation point they are. Previous versions quite often either skipped the offending tags/files or attempted to use them anyway which caused a performance hit.

Shane

cascaderailroad
September 5th, 2013, 01:29 PM
A thought that's just occurred is the amount of people still using trainz 2006, simply why? I'm going to get flamed for writing this but I much prefer using TS10, the Auran JET graphics engine has been slightly improved, everything looks crisper and better and I like the speed treez. It just irritates me the amount of people that when you release something, they make a request for a backdated version. Why are some users still using a game that's over 7 years old? I know some games are timeless like Simcity 4 and Railroad Tycoon, but Trainz 2006 hasn't aged well, most simulators rarely do (unless it's the Sims). Some of the pixels in Trainz 06 are like the size of a human fist.


But getting back on track, why do these people refuse to update? I mean it must be a pain in the backside with all this brilliant content that has been released being unavailable to download because you're still stuck in the 'good ol days when N3V was called Auran and all their stuff seemed to magically work without any dodgy patches needed, blah, blah, blah ...' Get with the times! I know my copy of trainz is 3 years old now which in computer terms is practically Victorian, but I'd rather use something that was Victorian rather than Stone Age.


So to conclude my rant about the Trainz 2006 Luddites; get with the times!

Yes I'm fully aware that my forum thingy says I've used trainz 2006, but that was back then.
Getting back to your main point:

Why would you even care, why people don't upgrade to a higher version, or buy an expensive new PC, that will handle the higher version ?

Some people don't have money growing on trees, to spend on a new expensive PC ... or they don't have parents that spoil the living daylights out of them, buying them every new electronic toy, for their spoiled rotten children.

I do have the right to choose which version to run, without someone shoving it down my throat, and rubbing my face in a higher version !

You like TS10 ... good for you !

Sounds like you set out to ridicule TRS2006 users, pointing fingers at them, calling them dinosaurs, and dumb ???

I look at Mezzoprezzo's great work ... and he uses TRS2004 !

It really irritated me that someone would purposely invent a thread to bash TRS2006 users ... now that's irritating when someone purposely sets out to do so, and does that !

Why would you even care, why they don't upgrade ???

Talnes
September 5th, 2013, 07:49 PM
A thought that's just occurred is the amount of people still using trainz 2006, simply why? I'm going to get flamed for writing this but I much prefer using TS10, the Auran JET graphics engine has been slightly improved, everything looks crisper and better and I like the speed treez. It just irritates me the amount of people that when you release something, they make a request for a backdated version. Why are some users still using a game that's over 7 years old? I know some games are timeless like Simcity 4 and Railroad Tycoon, but Trainz 2006 hasn't aged well, most simulators rarely do (unless it's the Sims). Some of the pixels in Trainz 06 are like the size of a human fist.


But getting back on track, why do these people refuse to update? I mean it must be a pain in the backside with all this brilliant content that has been released being unavailable to download because you're still stuck in the 'good ol days when N3V was called Auran and all their stuff seemed to magically work without any dodgy patches needed, blah, blah, blah ...' Get with the times! I know my copy of trainz is 3 years old now which in computer terms is practically Victorian, but I'd rather use something that was Victorian rather than Stone Age.


So to conclude my rant about the Trainz 2006 Luddites; get with the times!

Yes I'm fully aware that my forum thingy says I've used trainz 2006, but that was back then.




Hi

Yes I'm using all, just for using Trainz that is compatibel whit BR 80 008..br89 005. and all the old damp trains that is not compatibel whit 2009 or 2010


They have not been updated og change version. And i have an scenery that i love. winter scenery whit all old Steam Trainz.

The signal too are not compatible whit the 2010.


T.Alnes

JCitron
September 5th, 2013, 10:24 PM
From my observations, certain missing files can cause problems. A missing thumbnail for example - this can cause issues when the game scans the asset's folder and cannot find it, it does incur an I/O cost in actually looking for the file in the first place (and I/O is a problem when it comes to Trainz anyway, as it has to traverse the folders of the assets both during runtime and whilst loading (and even in Content Manager) - have a look using Performance/Resource Monitor if you want to see what I mean.

Also, certain missing tags can cause other issues, although not necessarily in a runtime scope. A missing category-class tag, for example, causes CM to mis-categorise the asset (especially in TS12 SP1, where it appears that the 'kind' tag is not used as often in categorising the content).

In terms of whether later versions are better, from a content validation point they are. Previous versions quite often either skipped the offending tags/files or attempted to use them anyway which caused a performance hit.

Shane

This is something I agree with too when it comes to the newer versions. I don't mind the content verification as that does help with stability, and is one of the things I always point out when people complain about the so-called broken content when upgrading to a newer version. I now only wish N3V would work on the I/O problems as that will help overcome the lag.

John

RRSignal
September 5th, 2013, 10:43 PM
This is something I agree with too when it comes to the newer versions. I don't mind the content verification as that does help with stability, and is one of the things I always point out when people complain about the so-called broken content when upgrading to a newer version. I now only wish N3V would work on the I/O problems as that will help overcome the lag.

John

With respect to Shane's comment, a penalty for I/O will occur anyway because of the request issued to the operating system. Indeed, on paper, the penalty should be worse if the file is actually found and loaded versus not being found. (Of course, this makes the big, fat assumption that the error-handling routine doesn't totally suck, and, of course, many do! Which is why I'll sample thumbnail handling with and without the thumbnail present when I get a few free minutes.)

The only way to prevent the penalty is to prevent the request from being issued in the first place, which essentially means ignoring (in the case of the aforementioned example) the entire thumbnails container. This is probably wise to do, at least in Driver and Surveyor; if any component should do that kind of checking, it should be CMP, where real-time performance isn't really that big of a deal.

mikeaust
September 6th, 2013, 03:13 AM
I still run 2004 because there are favourite locos that I have not got working in later versions.
I would still run 2006 but due to faulty disks I cant install.
My main version is 2010 which I find more stable than 2012 that is only used to run routes by favourite creators.
To each his own, I dont know why people continue with complaints about us using old versions. We are not affecting your use of Trainz, so why complain about us?
Cheers,
Mike

jjanmarine3
September 6th, 2013, 03:26 AM
I have a few versions and I use the one I feel like on the day.
All the versions have characteristics which are unique to that version and it makes the trainz game so much more fun. Whether the latest patches and upgrades are going to change the character of trainz I don't know, who knows ?

Zeldaboy14
September 6th, 2013, 06:55 AM
Well, Trainz 2006, like someone else in this post said, it can run on a Integrated Graphic, low end machine, Like take for example my Windows XP, it has Integrated Graphics, and low ram, but can play Trainz 2006 with hardly any issues, the only one issue is it tries to overload, and crashes the PC and restarts it. :)

amrail2000
September 6th, 2013, 07:03 AM
I've watched this thread since its start. And all the long drawn reasons aside, the reason is this. THEY CHOOSE TO. If you don't like their choice, oh well. Get over it.

cascaderailroad
September 6th, 2013, 07:19 AM
I like TRS2006 because, I actually enjoy fixing broken loco's, and having to backdate a zillion assets config files :hehe:

Zeldaboy14
September 6th, 2013, 07:21 AM
I like TRS2006 because, I actually enjoy fixing broken loco's, and having to backdate a zillion assets config files :hehe:
Yep! And like you told me, use that insted of 09/10 on that other computer!:hehe:

cascaderailroad
September 6th, 2013, 07:27 AM
Yes ... I use TRS2006 to lay track in, on my ol' beater laptop, and test out the running of my route on my desktop PC that actually has a video card.

It's like delivering pizza's in the inner city, in rush hour traffic, using the Porsche ... when you should have used the 15 y/o Toyota (as you don't need a video card to lay track in surveyor).

sparky15
September 11th, 2013, 10:40 PM
I use TRS2006 because it works. Argue the DLS and content angles amongst yourselves.

SuperSpeedMaglev
September 13th, 2013, 03:09 AM
I suppose it is slightly faster than Trainz 12, because the Trains aren't Hyper-detailed and the trees are "frozen', so maybe people choose to stay with Trainz 2006 as their computer runs it better than Trainz 12.

Mine's ok on most Trains 12 Routes apart from the Steam One.

johnwhelan
September 13th, 2013, 07:45 AM
I suppose it is slightly faster than Trainz 12, because the Trains aren't Hyper-detailed and the trees are "frozen', so maybe people choose to stay with Trainz 2006 as their computer runs it better than Trainz 12.

Mine's ok on most Trains 12 Routes apart from the Steam One.

Same content on the same settings usually runs with better frame rates in TS12. Don't forget the default distance in TS12 is 5 kms and TRS2006 is 1 km, it makes a difference.

Cheerio John

Vern
September 13th, 2013, 09:17 AM
Strangely enough the other day I reinstalled TS2010 as with a German route in mind I didn't want to faff about finding and downloading a load of previously default assets into TS12. My resolve lasted about 10 minutes based on, 1. TS2010 lacks the built in zoom out that TS12 has thus negating need to use the mini map, 2. There seems little point building a route which might eventually be shared if those running TS12 are going to be confronted by transparent trees etc. 3. TS12 is no better or worse than TS2010 for spline detachment. 4. Many items on the DLS have been obsoleted and replaced by TS12 versions so the number of assets that work in older versions will diminish or in time you might put out a route in TS2010 that won't acquire previously used assets which only work in TS12.

I've also started an occasional programme of refurbishment and upgrade on my older routes to TS12 standards and it is surprising what a difference just a decent chunky track (set with no gap on the ground) and replacing cruciform trees with some by McGuirrel can make.

mezzoprezzo
September 13th, 2013, 10:12 AM
.
Hi klambert.

What makes you believe that, ďmany people still use Trainz 2006Ē?

There is no clue in their Forum timelines, unless they have a single registered version saying TRS2006. Even then they may have other legitimate versions which they havenít bothered to register.

Members displaying ownership of several versions could be using any one of them, so there are very few clues. Itís impossible to tell from screenshots.

So, whereís the evidence for this implied large number of ďTrainz 2006Ē users?



Some of the pixels in Trainz 06 are like the size of a human fist.
Thatís not something IĎve ever seen ... in my even earlier version. If that your experience Iíd suggest that itís to do with your screen resolution settings being set too low in the Configure Trainz panel. It can also be tweaked in the Ėwidth & -height settings in the TrainzOptions file. Mine happily displays 1680x1050 with not a fist in sight.



I use TRS2006 because it works. Argue the DLS and content angles amongst yourselves.Very succinct. If itís that good I really ought to consider upgrading!
:D

sparky15
September 13th, 2013, 10:43 AM
Mezzopreezzo, my first version was TRS2006. Never could get it to patch so a bought a copy of TRS2004 some time later in a bargain bin after giving up on 06. Merscom put out a TC/06 SP1 combo I bought. 06 gets the nod from me because of Tidewater and Marias.*
Another nice setup is TC with Trainz Driver JAs transferred over. Being a North American railroading fan its a nice set.
Being a Mac user, my Windows install never sees the internet so no anti virus. Never registered 04 because I never really needed to since I only use the black pages to download from the DLS in OSX.

JCitron
September 13th, 2013, 11:10 AM
I will be the first to admit that updating to the latest and greatest versions of stuff is not always a good thing. As time goes on many excellent programs get left to the wayside due to various reasons, and among them is incompatibility with the newer operating systems. What is nice about Trainz, whether this is TRS2004 or even TS12, is they will run on various versions of the Windows Operating system. How many other programs do you know that are like that? The fact that you can still go back, or not upgrade if you don't want to is the best of both worlds, really. Another good thing about TRS2006 is it runs well on far more hardware combinations than the newest versions and doesn't require a Cray for good operation. It offers the starting point for the new way of doing things, so if you ever do update, you'll never go into shock, and still runs the older content without a lot of fiddling. The only thing you will miss is the newest content, but if you're not interested, stick with what you like.

Periodically, I dig out old software to run. Not my Trainz versions as I have moved on to TS12, with some regrets too, but other stuff that I purchased and liked. In some cases it still runs okay, even under Windows 8, while in others I have to go through hoops to get stuff to work like installing a virtual machine and an older operating system in that. A good example is that really, really awesome Transport Tycoon and Transport Tycoon Deluxe. I know that there is a modified version that runs under Windows using special software. It's not the same. The older versions, as buggy as they were, are still the best with their quirks. Before Trainz and even MSTS, I used to play this for hours at a time along with the older SimCity. If I could, without setting up a virtual machine, which actually doesn't run quite as fast as a native install, I would definitely install these on my machine I have today. In case people are wondering, I did try DOSx but that isn't the same as native Windows 95 or even MSDOS 6.63

John

PortLineParker
September 13th, 2013, 08:07 PM
I have to agree with paulsw2 that TRS2006 is very outdated, but it must also be remembered that TRS2006 was probably the most stable Trainz platform. Sure TS2009 - TS12 are stable but TRS2006 just never seemed to crash. Having said that, advances in the way models are created and the abilities that Trainz possesses now that can only be implemented in TS2010 or 12, such as multiplayer, mean that the older programs will only become less popular. I think that after a set deadline, eg: 31st December 2015 all content on the DLS should be available for TS2009 minimum, and any existing content must be upgraded. It will force people to upgrade, and while this may not be received well initially, realistically how long will users wait before upgrading? Otherwise we'll always have people who continue to make assets only to be pestered to make them compatible with past versions of Trainz. Anyway, I can see why some people still use older versions, but I think they are on a very restricted time limit as to how long they can remain using them before they disappear.

PortLineParker

RRSignal
September 13th, 2013, 08:36 PM
Almost every game I own is at least 15 years old and most are 20 to 30. There is no "restricted time limit" or borrowed time, at least not on the old versions, since there are no artificial limitations imposed by the software authors. As long as you can find a way to run the software, and people have the content that will work with them, then there are no issues. I guess the moral here is, stock up on Trainz content! :)

I've got everything I could want and need (including probably about 80% of the DLS) in my pre-SP1 TS12 since I have no intention of upgrading. Be it through VM, emulation, or simply keeping an old computer, one way or another, I'll keep my Trainz running.

Blutorse4792
September 13th, 2013, 09:20 PM
I prefer a game that runs to one that looks pretty.

sparky15
September 13th, 2013, 09:43 PM
What good is multiplayer when bound by the constant version numbers to sell FLS access?

sparky15
September 13th, 2013, 09:44 PM
DLS, my bad.

ex-railwayman
September 14th, 2013, 03:04 AM
To each his own, I dont know why people continue with complaints about us using old versions. We are not affecting your use of Trainz, so why complain about us?
Cheers,
Mike

Absolutely, Mike, this debate has been going on for some years now, I wonder why the OP mentioned TRS2006, when he could have asked about why people still use UTC after all these years, who are we to tell folks which version of the game to play, if you're happy and obtain enjoyment out of the game, which is why you purchased it in the first place, then carry on.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

shaneturner12
September 14th, 2013, 03:06 AM
The only problems I can see for those who use versions earlier than TS2009 are the additional costs to download from the Download Station, and for TRS2006 and earlier users, the problem of getting TRS2006 and earlier content from the same source (although there are third-party sites that help here).

Shane

PortLineParker
September 14th, 2013, 04:23 AM
Apologies if I caused any misunderstanding. When I say TRS2006 has a limited time left, I don't mean legally, I mean that it's approaching its time to go. I too have old games, but classics such as SimCity 4 which will never age. TRS2006 unfortunately does not fall as a classic in my opinion, so I think that users have limited time left in it before they must upgrade. I liked '06 but I upgraded when '09 came out and I don't regret it. I just think that '06 has had its time. However, I still see why some people like it to more recent versions, and don't blame them for choosing it.



PortLineParker

klambert
September 14th, 2013, 05:39 AM
Getting back to your main point:

Why would you even care, why people don't upgrade to a higher version, or buy an expensive new PC, that will handle the higher version ?

Some people don't have money growing on trees, to spend on a new expensive PC ... or they don't have parents that spoil the living daylights out of them, buying them every new electronic toy, for their spoiled rotten children.

I do have the right to choose which version to run, without someone shoving it down my throat, and rubbing my face in a higher version !

You like TS10 ... good for you !

Sounds like you set out to ridicule TRS2006 users, pointing fingers at them, calling them dinosaurs, and dumb ???

I look at Mezzoprezzo's great work ... and he uses TRS2004 !

It really irritated me that someone would purposely invent a thread to bash TRS2006 users ... now that's irritating when someone purposely sets out to do so, and does that !

Why would you even care, why they don't upgrade ???

Ok, lots of people keep asking me why it irritates me so much why users keep on using TRS06 so I will re-iterate what was originally posted, for those who don't have the ability to read things thoroughly: " It just irritates me the amount of people that when you release something, they make a request for a backdated version."

Also may I state the amount of requests other content creators get to backdate their content.

"I do have the right to choose which version to run, without someone shoving it down my throat, and rubbing my face in a higher version !"
Rubbing it in your face? I'm sorry you feel like that but you didn't have to read this thread.

"Some people don't have money growing on trees, to spend on a new expensive PC ... or they don't have parents that spoil the living daylights out of them, buying them every new electronic toy, for their spoiled rotten children."
I sincerely hope that wasn't aimed at me, as soon as arguments start getting that personal, they're often not worth entertaining and lets not degenerate this thread into that.

"It really irritated me that someone would purposely invent a thread to bash TRS2006 users ... now that's irritating when someone purposely sets out to do so, and does that !"
I feel I wrote my original point quite light heartedly and obviously some people are taking it as an insult. Lighten up!

Other than some people taking my original point as an insult rather than a discussion point, this thread seems to have stimulated some genuinely interesting discussion, the sort the trainz discussion forums seems to be lacking.


Absolutely, Mike, this debate has been going on for some years now, I wonder why the OP mentioned TRS2006, when he could have asked about why people still use UTC after all these years, who are we to tell folks which version of the game to play, if you're happy and obtain enjoyment out of the game, which is why you purchased it in the first place, then carry on.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

I didn't mention because I didnt think anyone still used UTC!

cascaderailroad
September 14th, 2013, 07:00 AM
Apologies if I caused any misunderstanding. When I say TRS2006 has a limited time left, I don't mean legally, I mean that it's approaching its time to go. I too have old games, but classics such as SimCity 4 which will never age. TRS2006 unfortunately does not fall as a classic in my opinion, so I think that users have limited time left in it before they must upgrade. I liked '06 but I upgraded when '09 came out and I don't regret it. I just think that '06 has had its time. However, I still see why some people like it to more recent versions, and don't blame them for choosing it.
PortLineParker
If I have an IBM Ball typewriter (the ones that go: chiggida, chiggida, chiggida, chiggida, chiggida, like a teletype machine) and it still works in the year 2013, it will still work in the year 2044. Who are you to say what must go, and who must go ?

TRS2006 worked right out of the box (as it came pre-patched) and was up and running in a matter of minutes ... TS10, TS12 takes 3 days (or more) to install and patch all the multitude of patches, and then we have the glitch factors in these supposed higher versions ... where as TRS2006 has no gitchs at all (asside from global sound).

Then there is non-compatability, errors because of missing shadows and screenshots, and a multitude of other errors shown in higher versions, and those horrid inventions: speed trees ... seriously is TS10 and TS12 hugely superior to TRS2006 (other than DLC content, NKP Berkshire, doppler effect, and a tad better cartoonish looking graphics) ?

Something new ... Is NOT always better !

I have recommended to a friend to buy TS12 ... I think he will have a huge learning curve ... and need lotsa' help getting it running (using free Skype).

BobbyT
September 15th, 2013, 02:15 PM
Here's my two cents about TRS2006. In my case my only railroad interests (realand Sims) are the Maine Two Foot railroads. As such when I first got 2006 I downloadedall the associated Maine content, and used it in my Maine Routes. In addition Ihave over fifty Maine related structures created in GMAX. I am constantly fiddling with these routes,and enjoy the building, creation, and operation in an environment thatworks. I am simply terrified ofupdating to a newer TS, that may or maynot have the same content and trouble free operation.
BobT

johnwhelan
September 15th, 2013, 02:33 PM
Here's my two cents about TRS2006. In my case my only railroad interests (realand Sims) are the Maine Two Foot railroads. As such when I first got 2006 I downloadedall the associated Maine content, and used it in my Maine Routes. In addition Ihave over fifty Maine related structures created in GMAX. I am constantly fiddling with these routes,and enjoy the building, creation, and operation in an environment thatworks. I am simply terrified ofupdating to a newer TS, that may or maynot have the same content and trouble free operation.
BobT


Any content that works in TRS2006 should be available in TS12, just import your TRS2006 assets by pointing TS12 at the right folder you may need to fix a few errors but the DLS clean up has cleaned most of these up. Installing TS12 doesn't stop your TRS2006 from working by the way. You should get better frame rates and additional content and at the moment TS12 upgrade appears to be $9.99 so the price is right. TS12 has a lot of bug fixes and on most machines runs more smoothly
we just like to bitch about things in the forum but rarely say it works fine for me. Oh by the way I've been running it for some months without any apparent problems.

Cheerio John

cascaderailroad
September 15th, 2013, 02:39 PM
I am simply terrified of updating to a newer TS, that may or may not have the same content and trouble free operation.
BobT
The only thing you have to worry about is overfilling your available disc space on your present PC.

What are your PC specs ... possibly a second higher end PC is in order (I will pay you to shovel my schnow' ... so you can's buy's a better laptop/desktop PC) !

My desktop PC ( which has an actual video card) is dedicated to Trainz (several versions of it), nothing else ... my other laptop PC (which has integrated graphics) is just for everyday personal computing and photos, music, videos (and has TRS2006 installed on it for building routes) ... then I transfer my TRS2006 routes into my high performance desktop PC (which has an actual video card).

I only play my high end desktop, on special occasions, when driving Trainz ... my other cheepo "beater" laptop I use almost all the time, and only use it for laying track, and test driving, in TRS2006.

In this day and age an $800 desktop, and a $500 laptop, is the best equipment to have on hand ... most households have at least 3 cheepo $379 PC's

SuperFudd
September 15th, 2013, 03:47 PM
My TS2009 runs better than my TRS2006, and that is on TRS2004 and TRS2006 stuff.

Matt3985
September 15th, 2013, 05:49 PM
I second that. I still have 2004 and 2006 but they won't work on a Mac so I can't use them but if I still had a PC, I would still use them.

BobbyT
September 15th, 2013, 09:29 PM
I have a brand new HP ENVY with 64 bit Windows 8; Intel Core i7-3770 CPU @ 3.4HZ; and the GeForceGT 630 graphic card driveversion 305.29. There will be noproblems with disk space - it's got morethen I will use in a long long time (I hope).
It's just a reluctance to take on a new TS, in addition totrying to learn Blender.

cascaderailroad
September 15th, 2013, 09:43 PM
That should handle TS12 perfect !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGlrobvb-ao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6SXG3WKucg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGlrobvb-ao)

PortLineParker
September 16th, 2013, 12:40 PM
If I have an IBM Ball typewriter (the ones that go: chiggida, chiggida, chiggida, chiggida, chiggida, like a teletype machine) and it still works in the year 2013, it will still work in the year 2044. Who are you to say what must go, and who must go ?

TRS2006 worked right out of the box (as it came pre-patched) and was up and running in a matter of minutes ... TS10, TS12 takes 3 days (or more) to install and patch all the multitude of patches, and then we have the glitch factors in these supposed higher versions ... where as TRS2006 has no gitchs at all (asside from global sound).

Then there is non-compatability, errors because of missing shadows and screenshots, and a multitude of other errors shown in higher versions, and those horrid inventions: speed trees ... seriously is TS10 and TS12 hugely superior to TRS2006 (other than DLC content, NKP Berkshire, doppler effect, and a tad better cartoonish looking graphics) ?

Something new ... Is NOT always better !

I have recommended to a friend to buy TS12 ... I think he will have a huge learning curve ... and need lotsa' help getting it running (using free Skype).

I didn't say what people could and couldn't run, I'm simply expressing my opinion that TRS2006 has a very limited lifespan left in it. As for your version of Ts12, I don't know how good your machine is but I downloaded the game and installed the patches within 1 and a half hours. TS12 handles much nicer on my system than older versions, so I must disagree with the 'newer is not always better'. In this case, I personally find that it is. TS12 has, I find, also got very few compatability issues, which even then are easily solved. But, as I said, this is only my experience and opinion.

PortLineParker

cascaderailroad
September 16th, 2013, 12:44 PM
I'm simply expressing my opinion that TRS2006 has a very limited lifespan left in it. PortLineParker
TRS2006 has an unlimited lifespan ... as long as you have all the assets on your PC, and/or you backdate the higher build assets ... TRS2006 will continue to run in the year 2099

sparky15
September 16th, 2013, 01:00 PM
I spend over 85% of my time in Surveyor building every model railroad that tickles my fancy. I have 5GB of content I've downloaded over the years backed up in three places. I have enough to keep me busy the rest of my life, even only using built in content if needed. My favorite install is TC with the Trainz Driver JA files from 2006 in it. 09 was my mistake, TS12 was a gift and I use the Mac version when to lazy to boot into Windows.*
With USLW, TPR and others, no end in sight for 06 or 04.*

RRSignal
September 16th, 2013, 01:14 PM
Again, the statement that "TRS2006 has a very limited lifespan left in it" is completely false and deceptive because it implies that the software will become unusable in the near future. This is not the first time in recent memory someone has spread this kind of misinformation - look at the tizzy over GMax.

Again, proving how false that statement is, I run 30+ year old software all the time.

Frankly, the only of the Trainz series that have the technical ability to actually STOP working is TS12 - specifically, the DLC if you have SP1.

JCitron
September 16th, 2013, 01:19 PM
TRS2006 has an unlimited lifespan ... as long as you have all the assets on your PC, and/or you backdate the higher build assets ... TRS2006 will continue to run in the year 2099

Backdating content will work to a certain extent. Eventually there will be changes in the format that will prevent the assets from being imported into TRS2006.

Now as much as I like running older applications, as I said in my earlier post so many pages back, running the latest version of Trainz does have its advantages (there are a quite few disadvantages too, but that's another ball of wax to melt). There is the advanced error checking that so many people complain about. With this in place, this ensures that most content loads properly and the program runs with fewer crashes. As has been said so many, many times before, this process was actually started with TRS2006, and has been enforced more and more with current versions. The reasons for this are numerous and among them is with older versions, and compatibility mode with TRS2009 and TRS2010, the program will horse its way through the errors and attempt to load the content anyway. When this happens, this causes additional stuttering as the program stops and parses the errors then loads the content. This works to a certain extent, but it does not work successfully all the time. The end result was the numerous crashes we saw in TRS2004 and in TRS2006. Oh, you can get that sweet spot with these programs where things don't crash, but when they do, it's difficult to find the culprit. Now with the error checking, this rarely is the cause of a crash.

As time goes on, the content will be nearly error free right off the DLS as people are working to clean up the content that is up there. Included in the clean up process have been older built in items as well which had errors in them, mostly in the config.txt files. Now. I don't blame the content creators for many errors because they duplicated what Auran had given them originally. The problem is the community grew a lot faster than Auran expected and this caused the amount of faulty content to become a lot higher.

The current versions also do have better performance, perhaps as a result of the error checking, but this is also attributed to better code tweaking and cleanup. There is better scripting so signals and junctions work better. The AI work a little smarter, well sometimes, and other things that are hidden under the hood from us non-programmers. The draw distance has been increased, and yes, you can actually get the 5km draw distance in Surveyor and the 2.1km draw distance in Driver . (This latter issue is due to the limitations of Direct 3D and the video card). What causes things not to display correctly is older content that is not optimized. The throttle will kick in and drop the draw distance to prevent a crash. As a long time user, I have found that by replacing older content, and even rebuilding and replacing baseboards, I've been able to maintain the longer draw distances.

Yes, Speed Trees can be awful. I have found that this has to do with the creator and the shear number of them. By picking and choosing what I install, I have found that the trees really do look quite nice. I have also found, as I stated in another thread, which I can't remember if it got snarfed in the crash, that by thinning out their numbers, the performance is quite nice in Trainz. Yes, they are bigger and thicker and have more polygons, making them drag the system down. Doh! But... Unlike the old flip board trees which we grew to love so much, they are truly 3d and are not rendered by the CPU first. This latter point is important to note as this can mean an increase in performance believe it or not. Instead of going through multiple steps to get the trees drawn on the screen, they are handled directly by the video card. This saves CPU cycles, processing, and of course time. With the real time processing and rendering, every cycle and second, even a millisecond, counts, and having this extra time and CPU for other things such as AI processing, scripts, and overall system use, is important as it helps everything run much smoother.

So anyway, yes, there are advantages to staying with the older version, but updating is not such a bad idea either. Like any program though. Do as you wish if you can. You are lucky that you can do this with Trainz as many companies will not allow older versions to run concurrently with newer ones, and in many cases the older software will not run on newer systems. Enjoy your TRS2006 for as long as your PC can run it.

John

PWeiser
September 16th, 2013, 02:16 PM
Again, the statement that "TRS2006 has a very limited lifespan left in it" is completely false and deceptive because it implies that the software will become unusable in the near future. This is not the first time in recent memory someone has spread this kind of misinformation - look at the tizzy over GMax.

Again, proving how false that statement is, I run 30+ year old software all the time.

Frankly, the only of the Trainz series that have the technical ability to actually STOP working is TS12 - specifically, the DLC if you have SP1.

+10

The difference between unplanned, planned and programmed obsolesence.

PortLineParker
September 16th, 2013, 02:55 PM
You people don't seem to understand what I'm saying, I like TRS2006 and haven't got anything against it, but you're all being pedantic if you don't mind my saying. I'm not saying that in a few weeks TRS2006 will just stop working, but that eventually something will happen like the DLS is cleared of all content dated before TS2009 or something, I don't know what I'm speculating. But let's be honest, all games eventually get so out of date that they simply don't work. People may get new computers that don't run TRS2006. For example, my PC doesn't run MSTS anymore due to some compatibility issues. In the future, something similar may occur with TRS2006. I don't want it to, but in all probability it's bound to happen. I'm not spreading rumours, I am expressing my opinion. I can't stress that enough. I don't want to argue, I just want to help you all understand it.

PortLineParker

cascaderailroad
September 16th, 2013, 03:14 PM
snip~:You people don't seem to understand what I'm saying ... snip~: I don't know what I'm speculating ... snip~:all games eventually get so out of date that they simply don't work. People may get new computers that don't run TRS2006 ... snip~: I'm not spreading rumours, I am expressing my opinion. I can't stress that enough. I don't want to argue, I just want to help you all understand it. PortLineParker
So you just will not stop ... until you have crammed it down our throats with a plunger stick ? Do you really think that we really need you to explain this to us in detail, and rub our faces down in the "Muck" ?

You may as well close this thread ... because you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about ... If you have such a "beef" against TRS2006 users ... leave us the *ell alone.

We will be running TRS2006 in the year 2099 ... Do you really think that TRS2006 is "Really" going to just magically shut off someday, by remote control DRM by N3V's initiative ?

Why are you bashing TRS2006 users, and flaming them into an argument ?

It seems that you will not stop bashing TRS2006 users, and stop spreading misinformation, that is totally in error ... untill you start a "Flame War" ... which, I quess ... is your mission here ?

Mods: Please ...Close this thread due to moronic misinformation being flailed around, like a dung flailer !

Manure Spreader:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yQnA__px68)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yQnA__px68
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqtOX7COr2c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4lITsNlEY0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF_1AcnpJBQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GMaDvMX1M4
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GMaDvMX1M4)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ankJWg3qmk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA1vuM4IfWE

Personal opinions are like _ _ _- _ _ _ _ _ ... everyone's got one !

You don't see me spreading rumors that XP, Vista, and Windows7 OS will be magically be shut down by DRM someday ?

If N3V ever went out of business ... your precious 09, 10, 12 versions, and DLC stuff, that has DRM, may magically just shut down someday, by remote control ?

And I will still be up & running TRS2006 on Vista & Windows7

Just because it is lousey inclement weather in the UK ... don't come here, and rain on my parade !

PortLineParker
September 16th, 2013, 03:52 PM
Thank you for your kind words. I'm not trying to rub anyone's nose in the 'muck', I just commented on this forum to express my opinion. I truly am sorry for any anger caused, however I am NOT sorry for expressing my opinion, you will have to learn to live with that. I am not on a 'mission' as you put it, I have TRS2006 and as said in my original post I loved it at the time as it was the most stable version of Trainz available at the time. You know my opinion on this matter so I'll leave that. I respect your opinion, so let's not take this any further.

PortLineParker

cascaderailroad
September 16th, 2013, 03:53 PM
Then just stop posting about the pathetic TRS2006 version users, and rubbing our faces in it !

You just can't stop, can you ?

You just gotta have the last word in ... Just STOP !

PortLineParker
September 16th, 2013, 03:55 PM
My last post. I want no hostilities, I want to leave this peacefully. But I could say the same about you, you're relentless. What in my last post 'rubbed your noses in it'? I think you're looking for an argument when in fact there wasn't one. Anyway, I'm off now, but let's leave on a peaceful note.

PortLineParker

cascaderailroad
September 16th, 2013, 03:58 PM
And you are leaving with your: "last word in" on this topic ? Talk about relentless ... You came here to bash us TRS2006 users ... I am done with this argument that you started ! (I appologize ... that was Klambert who started this thread ... that you so kindly jumped in on the band wagon, to help along to further bash us TRS2006 users).

Just STOP Dude !
============================
Now you futher this along, by sending me a nasty PM:

Re: This ends now
http://forums.auran.com/trainz/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by PortLineParker
You know, I'm usually pretty easy to get along with. But I don't like bullies. And I don't like you. You know full well that I was expressing my opinion and that you started an argument over that. You need to learn some respect for other people's opinions. I'm blocking you so that any return messages will be blocked, so don't bother trying. I just want you to know that you seem one of those forum trolls that goes about trying to cause arguments. In this case, you succeeded in arguing with me, but I'm ending it here. I'll be keeping an eye out on your posts so that I can see if you try and stir things up again in the future.

PortLineParker

Some people just can't STOP !

You'd also get pretty ticked off, if someone came around, intent on bashing your favorite thing in life, and said about yer' Dawg ... That it was so ugly ... That it should be shaved, & trained to walk backwards ... hit a sore spot ... you did ... Don't pour salt in my wound !

sparky15
September 16th, 2013, 04:55 PM
You people don't seem to understand what I'm saying, I like TRS2006 and haven't got anything against it, but you're all being pedantic if you don't mind my saying. I'm not saying that in a few weeks TRS2006 will just stop working, but that eventually something will happen like the DLS is cleared of all content dated before TS2009 or something, I don't know what I'm speculating. But let's be honest, all games eventually get so out of date that they simply don't work. People may get new computers that don't run TRS2006. For example, my PC doesn't run MSTS anymore due to some compatibility issues. In the future, something similar may occur with TRS2006. I don't want it to, but in all probability it's bound to happen. I'm not spreading rumours, I am expressing my opinion. I can't stress that enough. I don't want to argue, I just want to help you all understand it.

PortLineParker

I'm a Mac head so bear with me. What possible compatibility issues can you have running older software? I was a Windows user until around 2001 when I bought my first Mac. Mac and Windows user until 2006 when I bought this MacBook Pro that can run Windows in bootcamp. Never had problems getting older software to run. Granted, I stopped at Vista and went back to XP. QUICKLY.*
I had been considering putting together a Windows box, but, if the new versions of Windows are causing problems, I'll save my pennies for a new MacBook Pro instead and soldier on with XP.

klambert
September 16th, 2013, 05:09 PM
Then just stop posting about the pathetic TRS2006 version users, and rubbing our faces in it !

You just can't stop, can you ?

You just gotta have the last word in ... Just STOP !

Rubbing your face in it? Now that's a line I heard you repeat a few pages back. Well you didn't have to read this thread if you feel that. Lighten up please and if you must insist on joining in on this thread, listen and accept peoples differing view points. By the way I notice you haven't addressed my previous post in response to one of yours, yet.

@PortLineParker, I see your point, TRS06 is already outdated, one of the reasons why I upgraded to TS10 was so I could continue to download from the DLS.

Cascaderailroad: "You'd also get pretty ticked off, if someone came around, intent on bashing your favorite thing in life, and said about yer' Dawg ... That it was so ugly ... That it should be shaved, & trained to walk backwards ... hit a sore spot ... you did ... Don't pour salt in my wound !"

Jeez mate, lighten up I didn't think a train simulation game meant that much to you. I find PortLineParkers posts to be very reasonable and did not warrant those sort of responses.

RRSignal
September 16th, 2013, 05:33 PM
Rubbing your face in it? Now that's a line I heard you repeat a few pages back. Well you didn't have to read this thread if you feel that. Lighten up please and if you must insist on joining in on this thread, listen and accept peoples differing view points. By the way I notice you haven't addressed my previous post in response to one of yours, yet.

@PortLineParker, I see your point, TRS06 is already outdated, one of the reasons why I upgraded to TS10 was so I could continue to download from the DLS.

Cascaderailroad: "You'd also get pretty ticked off, if someone came around, intent on bashing your favorite thing in life, and said about yer' Dawg ... That it was so ugly ... That it should be shaved, & trained to walk backwards ... hit a sore spot ... you did ... Don't pour salt in my wound !"

Jeez mate, lighten up I didn't think a train simulation game meant that much to you. I find PortLineParkers posts to be very reasonable and did not warrant those sort of responses.


No, they are not "reasonable" because they willfully and deliberately spread misinformation. It's one thing to say, 'In my opinion, the newer versions are better' or "the older versions aren't as good'. It's entirely different to say, "TRS2006 has a very limited lifespan left in it". Especially without qualification.

Once again, technically, the only of the Trainz series that has a potentially (and artificially) limited lifespan is TS12 SP1 and later, and that's only by deliberate design.

P.S. If you have an FCT, you can download to TRS2006, TRS2004, or whatever. No need for TS2010.

johnwhelan
September 16th, 2013, 06:32 PM
P.S. If you have an FCT, you can download to TRS2006, TRS2004, or whatever. No need for TS2010.

Yes but the newer stuff is not available to run under TRS2004. There is a wider variety of assets available that run under TS12 than are available under TRS2004 or TRS2006.

Cheerio John

RRSignal
September 16th, 2013, 06:39 PM
Yes but the newer stuff is not available to run under TRS2004. There is a wider variety of assets available that run under TS12 than are available under TRS2004 or TRS2006.

Cheerio John

Most of it can be backdated, though. Beyond scripted assets, most stuff that runs on later versions *should* work on older ones, albeit with some tweaking. In theory.

sparky15
September 16th, 2013, 07:31 PM
Yes but the newer stuff is not available to run under TRS2004. There is a wider variety of assets available that run under TS12 than are available under TRS2004 or TRS2006.

Cheerio John

I kind of find the opposite is true. While there is newer content coming out, the community is scrambling to fix older content to work in newer versions. It seems everything is being "fixed" to work in these new versions. Outside of the older content N3V keeps selling me hidden from error routines in JA files.*
Better off just staying with older versions that do run it and avoid the hardware upgrade to make use of it now. Outside of pretty content, the game has changed little since TRS2004. Same garbage turnouts. Its all cosmetic now and DLS access.

johnwhelan
September 16th, 2013, 07:51 PM
I kind of find the opposite is true. While there is newer content coming out, the community is scrambling to fix older content to work in newer versions. It seems everything is being "fixed" to work in these new versions. Outside of the older content N3V keeps selling me hidden from error routines in JA files.*
Better off just staying with older versions that do run it and avoid the hardware upgrade to make use of it now. Outside of pretty content, the game has changed little since TRS2004. Same garbage turnouts. Its all cosmetic now and DLS access.

Well yes but the fixes make the stuff run better in the older versions as well. Basically the error checking wasn't so good in TRS2004 was it tafweb who created software so that you could fix assets so they actually ran in TRS2004. In those days you had to do the fixes yourself its only recently that the fixes have been done centrally on the DLS.

Cheerio John

ZecMurphy
September 16th, 2013, 08:10 PM
First off. There is NO reason to attack some one for expressing an opposing opinion. We will not tolerate. At no point has 'misinformation' been spread, simply an opinion on software becoming 'obsolete'/'unusable'. Which has occurred previously, and there's no real way to know if this will or will not occur in future. This does also depend on how much effort you are willing to put into making old software work when newer versions may be available...

Again, please keep your discussions friendly and clean. We will not tolerate personal attacks on other members, irrespective of the topic.

RRSignal
September 16th, 2013, 08:21 PM
At no point has 'misinformation' been spread, simply an opinion on software becoming 'obsolete'/'unusable'.

Erm, yes, such misinformation HAS been spread. Sorry if it conflicts with the intention of N3V and other software vendors to sell software. As pointed out earlier, that "opinion" could have been expressed differently and more accurately. As for personal attacks, well, I did not make one, but there is a not-so-fine line between personal attack against and individual and a callout of a claim made by same.

sparky15
September 16th, 2013, 08:58 PM
Well yes but the fixes make the stuff run better in the older versions as well. Basically the error checking wasn't so good in TRS2004 was it tafweb who created software so that you could fix assets so they actually ran in TRS2004. In those days you had to do the fixes yourself its only recently that the fixes have been done centrally on the DLS.

Cheerio John

I took all my old content, ran it through TS12 and fixed the errors. Saved and put back in TRS2006. No real difference.
Built a small route in TS12 using only new and efficient content. Slide show.
Argue all you want about pushing this down to the GPU or quote Tom's hardware all day. You're pushing this game engine by throwing horsepower at it. You can make a brick fly if you strap a big enough engine to it. I see no reason to go through the hassle of more hardware, another version and new content to be where I was 7 years ago performance wise.
Sure, you're right. Fix the errors. Then double the detail and computer specs. No thanks. I build routes to operate, not take screen shots or dumb down because the content is higher detail.

Matt3985
September 16th, 2013, 09:09 PM
TRS2006 has an unlimited lifespan ... as long as you have all the assets on your PC, and/or you backdate the higher build assets ... TRS2006 will continue to run in the year 2099 I know and that is what makes both 2004 and 2006 such good games, which is why I still have them incase I get another PC.

Red_Rattler
September 16th, 2013, 09:16 PM
At Klambert, do you have a car, and if so, is it an older model, and if it's older, why have you decided to keep it?

And just how many faulty items actually work in TS10 & TS2004, and how many faulty items work in TS12?
And just how stable was TS2004 compared to later versions?

(How many faulty items work in TS12? Answer: ZERO!)

PS: I think you just answered your own question on this page (http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?105227-Why-do-so-many-people-still-use-Trainz-2006&p=1197679#post1197679) of this very thread!

RRSignal
September 16th, 2013, 09:29 PM
At Klambert, do you have a car, and if so, is it an older model, and if it's older, why have you decided to keep it?

This is the most accurate metaphor I have every heard.

Difference is, if modern software and hardware vendors had their way, your car would stop running after x number miles or x number of years, period, finish. And your only option would be to buy another one.

sparky15
September 16th, 2013, 09:36 PM
I know and that is what makes both 2004 and 2006 such good games, which is why I still have them incase I get another PC.

You can run them through boot camp if you want.*

klambert
September 17th, 2013, 01:26 PM
At Klambert, do you have a car, and if so, is it an older model, and if it's older, why have you decided to keep it?

And just how many faulty items actually work in TS10 & TS2004, and how many faulty items work in TS12?
And just how stable was TS2004 compared to later versions?

(How many faulty items work in TS12? Answer: ZERO!)

PS: I think you just answered your own question on this page (http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?105227-Why-do-so-many-people-still-use-Trainz-2006&p=1197679#post1197679) of this very thread!

Errm no I don't have a car but I'm currently learning how to drive in a 2 year old Corsa.

I would say that's not a very good metaphor because people use old cars becuase they can't afford a newer one, but I hardly think the cost of a new PC game and a car is comparible, I mean if you can't cough up £20 for a computer game you must be well and truly skint, but its pretty normal not to be able to cough up a couple of grand for another car.

I fail to see how I answered my own question, my point on that origanal post was the TS10 will run quite comfortably on old PC's, once again the price between a new PC and a computer game is hardly comparable.


Erm, yes, such misinformation HAS been spread. Sorry if it conflicts with the intention of N3V and other software vendors to sell software. As pointed out earlier, that "opinion" could have been expressed differently and more accurately. As for personal attacks, well, I did not make one, but there is a not-so-fine line between personal attack against and individual and a callout of a claim made by same.

What misinformation has been spread exactly? It appears to me people are taking what PortLineParker said too literally, of course someone with a remote at N3V HQ can't switch the game off, what he meant by saying it had limited life in it, was that the game was outdated, not that it was going to be shut down.

RJPugh
September 17th, 2013, 02:53 PM
I've only just gotten back into Trainz (long story), and I still keep 2006 installed. There are some things that just work better over there, so until I can find a way to cleanly port them over, I'll keep 2006 available for when I need it. I keep 2009 available for similar reasons.

When I upgraded (last week) I deliberately chose TS2010 instead of TS2012. My computer's specs are far above what TS2010 needs, so I figured even if I loaded up the features it should still work fine. So far it has. Nothing worse than an occasional stutter in the rendering.

Also, the asset files I collected for TS2009 all work in TS2010 (albeit many of them now have updates or have been replaced). I couldn't be sure of that regarding 2012.

And finally, I'm not currently interested in multi-player Internet capability, which appears to be one of TS2012's big new features. In my experience, a program's size goes up exponentially when multi-player features are added. Not to mention the opportunity for bugs and hacker attacks. I also have satellite internet, which can get flaky when the weather isn't nice. Online gaming under such conditions is often more trouble than it's worth.

So in the end I went with the most current "stand alone" version of Trainz, which is TS2010. I may upgrade later on, depending on what happens, but I'm in no rush.

RRSignal
September 17th, 2013, 02:57 PM
What misinformation has been spread exactly? It appears to me people are taking what PortLineParker said too literally, of course someone with a remote at N3V HQ can't switch the game off, what he meant by saying it had limited life in it, was that the game was outdated, not that it was going to be shut down.

If you want to go over thing with a fine-toothed comb, he repeated a form of misinformation that the game will stop working not once, but many times over. One could have cut him slack had he made the misinformed statement once, but not after reiterating it so many times.

Unfortunately, a lot of people really think that their software will up and stop working, and that they need to upgrade before that happens. The software industry depends on that ignorance/misinformation and does little to set the record straight.

Even worse is that an increasing number of software makers - including with the latest version of Trainz SP1 - literally have been implementing a kind of "kill switch" that would make PortLineParker's misinformation into a reality.

PortLineParker
September 17th, 2013, 04:27 PM
Not once in my posts did I say that TRS2006 will stop working. For god's sake, Trainz 1.3 still works. I only reiterated what I said because from the very first time I posted I was shot down for it, for expressing my opinion. If you want to double check my posts then go ahead, you will not find me saying anywhere that TRS2006 will stop working at the flick of a switch, I merely suggested that it is a possibility that it will stop working in the future, as I'm sure most games eventually will. Eventually, something will happen that means '06 can no longer be used, as I'm sure will happen for TS12. Whether that be a new system that doesn't support it or what, I don't know. But I have said this from the start; it's not trolling, it's not spreading misleading information, it is merely my opinion.

PortLineParker

JCitron
September 17th, 2013, 04:44 PM
Not once in my posts did I say that TRS2006 will stop working. For god's sake, Trainz 1.3 still works. I only reiterated what I said because from the very first time I posted I was shot down for it, for expressing my opinion. If you want to double check my posts then go ahead, you will not find me saying anywhere that TRS2006 will stop working at the flick of a switch, I merely suggested that it is a possibility that it will stop working in the future, as I'm sure most games eventually will. Eventually, something will happen that means '06 can no longer be used, as I'm sure will happen for TS12. Whether that be a new system that doesn't support it or what, I don't know. But I have said this from the start; it's not trolling, it's not spreading misleading information, it is merely my opinion.

PortLineParker

I agree to a point. Knowing how people hoard old stuff, there is that possibility that they could keep it running on an old system somewhere offline. It won't work in the same fashion, or totally in the same fashion today with the DLS and other resources, but it can still work. Whether it will run on brand new hardware, due to various reasons such as a new operating system running, video driver models, etc., and totally different hardware making the systems truly different, well then we can concur totally on this point.

John

sonofham
September 17th, 2013, 05:28 PM
Well I recently bought TRS2004 as thats the only TRS I have ever seen in stores.I would like to get a newer TRS like TRS2010 but since I can't afford a FCT atm I have to reply on third party sites to find content that works in TRS2004 and hope if it is missing a dep I can find it elsewhere.That is how I found these locos:
<kuid:52779:6702> Dash 9 AC4400 CW DR.com and the P42 pack at the partially archived site of www.digitalroundhouse.com/ (http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://www.digitalroundhouse.com/*) although I did find some of the content which was formally payware from digitalroundhouse here (http://protrainz.com/download.htm).

I also got some content from www.ustrainz.com/ (http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://www.ustrainz.com/*) which is mostly hoppers,air hoppers,godolas,etc.. that aren't hosted here (http://rrmods.com/trs04.shtml) but some of them still require missing kuids. :( I really had hopped that I could get most of SporBust's loco's and deps but although quite a few of the .cdps appear to have been "backed-up\archived" they aren't. :( I was only able to get this GP60(NS GP60 7123<kuid2:55290:4000:1>) excluding the deps so I can't do much with it. :( I would like to re-skin an AC4400sw int\cab for the <kuid:52779:6702> Dash 9 AC4400 CW DR.com and I have sent an email requesting permission to do that as it is a cool looking loco!

brakemen
September 17th, 2013, 06:27 PM
ok, let me put in my thoughts on this one. I do use trs06 and its fine with me great frame rates, graphics looks great to me. the only thing I can say about trs06 is the sound of the track which I can get use to so its no big deal to me. cmp error checking is easy for engines and rolling stock and buildings. and believe me I fixed alot of errors and get them to run or to show up in surveyor. the newer version like trs10 looks good but I still think its still unstable and for me to get trs10 it would have all the latest service packs built in the game disk. I do not know what the specs would be to run on a computer. and once again how difficult will it be to fix a engine or rollling stock in trs10 compare to trs06 very tough. and by the way all trainz versions has some kind of flaw in the game. and just because a newer version is new does not mean its all that great another 7 years from now someone will be posting saying why are the members still useing trs10 when the new version is out. its going to come back and haunt him sooner or later. oh yeah let me tell you something in the beginning when I need help from the members from trs06 on fixing errors most of them showed me how to fix the errors. and you know after all these years working with trs06 fixing errors I'm still learning somethng new thate one of the other members showed me how to fix something in trs06 and to me that shows me that they still willing to help me and to take thier time away from what they were doing and show me what I'm doing wrong. in my book that means something to me. and all of you members who still uses trs06 thanks for the help in the past 6 years. you should all pat your selves on the back for all the knowledge you have from fixing errors or building engines, rolling stock or buildings. because in my book your are number 1 with out you, the creators trainz will not exsist. I'm talking about the creators of trs06 stuff. I cannot say for any other versions because I do not have any maybe one day I will get trs10 but only they fix the flaws and put the updated service packs built into the onto the game disk. I might wait until the new newer version of trainz come out now. any one knows how old trs10 is?


brakemen

RRSignal
September 17th, 2013, 06:51 PM
I might wait until the new newer version of trainz come out now. any one knows how old trs10 is?

IIRC, it came out around the end of October of 2009. I joined the forums something like 2 or 3 weeks before it was released. Out of curiosity I checked and my order date was Halloween of 2009 (Oct. 31st, for those who don't celebrate it). That's really not very old.

sparky15
September 17th, 2013, 07:45 PM
Not once in my posts did I say that TRS2006 will stop working. For god's sake, Trainz 1.3 still works. I only reiterated what I said because from the very first time I posted I was shot down for it, for expressing my opinion. If you want to double check my posts then go ahead, you will not find me saying anywhere that TRS2006 will stop working at the flick of a switch, I merely suggested that it is a possibility that it will stop working in the future, as I'm sure most games eventually will. Eventually, something will happen that means '06 can no longer be used, as I'm sure will happen for TS12. Whether that be a new system that doesn't support it or what, I don't know. But I have said this from the start; it's not trolling, it's not spreading misleading information, it is merely my opinion.

PortLineParker

I feel you're basing your opinion on an assumption. Where will technology go? Who knows. Do you have to go with it? No. That is called marketing. The end of the PC as we know it might be at hand. Parts will never be. Old operating systems you have will never be. As long as you have discs and parts, nothing will change.*
Call me a ludite or whatever, I upgrade when it suits me, not for latest and greatest marketing. I have an Imac G3 who's sole purpose is to run Falcon 4 and store my Trainz stuff. A G5 dual 2.0 to run Final Cut and this MacBook Pro bought in 2006. If technology wants to pass me by, I'll waive as they go around. What I have suits me and does what I need it to do. I'll keep what I have going until my needs change. I can buy parts for my dinos dirt cheap.

johnwhelan
September 17th, 2013, 08:39 PM
Well I recently bought TRS2004 as thats the only TRS I have ever seen in stores.I would like to get a newer TRS like TRS2010 but since I can't afford a FCT atm I have to reply on third party sites to find content that works in TRS2004 and hope if it is missing a dep I can find it elsewhere.That is how I found these locos:
<kuid:52779:6702> Dash 9 AC4400 CW DR.com and the P42 pack at the partially archived site of www.digitalroundhouse.com/ (http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://www.digitalroundhouse.com/*) although I did find some of the content which was formally payware from digitalroundhouse here (http://protrainz.com/download.htm).

I also got some content from www.ustrainz.com/ (http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://www.ustrainz.com/*) which is mostly hoppers,air hoppers,godolas,etc.. that aren't hosted here (http://rrmods.com/trs04.shtml) but some of them still require missing kuids. :( I really had hopped that I could get most of SporBust's loco's and deps but although quite a few of the .cdps appear to have been "backed-up\archived" they aren't. :( I was only able to get this GP60(NS GP60 7123<kuid2:55290:4000:1>) excluding the deps so I can't do much with it. :( I would like to re-skin an AC4400sw int\cab for the <kuid:52779:6702> Dash 9 AC4400 CW DR.com and I have sent an email requesting permission to do that as it is a cool looking loco!

There is a $9.99 TS12 upgrade floating around which as a registered user of TRS2004 you should be eligible for. Check you emails for one from N3V over the last couple of weeks. Once you have TS2009 or later you can download from the DLS a maximum of 100 mb/day for free although the speed isn't the greatest. Just don't try to download a route as it checks to see if the asset plus dependencies is less than 100 mb but it should get you a few locos etc.

Cheerio John

Cheerio John

RRSignal
September 17th, 2013, 09:24 PM
There is a $9.99 TS12 upgrade floating around which as a registered user of TRS2004 you should be eligible for. Check you emails for one from N3V over the last couple of weeks. Once you have TS2009 or later you can download from the DLS a maximum of 100 mb/day for free although the speed isn't the greatest. Just don't try to download a route as it checks to see if the asset plus dependencies is less than 100 mb but it should get you a few locos etc.

Cheerio John

Cheerio John
Never
It isn't worth it, if you're expecting maximum compatibility, though. Never mind the other issues the latest versions introduce into the mix. Maybe TS2010 would be a better fit.

sparky15
September 17th, 2013, 10:33 PM
TS12 for $10 and $20 FCT.
TS2010 and $20 to JointedRail.
I would go the TS2010 route. More content, compatibility mode and drop some cash to JR for what you want if inclined. Or RRMods.
TS12 is short on built in content. If you like to build your own routes like I do and TS2010 is close to the Mac version, go there. Enough included on disc to keep you busy forever. Only non included content I use in the Mac version is JointedRail signals and Profig trees. Neither available on the DLS.
In my opinion, the selling point of TS12 was JointedRail content. $20 there buys you a lot of quality content as they have great prices and are not stingy with the freeware.*

johnwhelan
September 18th, 2013, 06:49 AM
TS12 for $10 and $20 FCT.

In my opinion, the selling point of TS12 was JointedRail content. $20 there buys you a lot of quality content as they have great prices and are not stingy with the freeware.*

They don't have a lot of UK content.

Bye John

cascaderailroad
September 18th, 2013, 08:41 AM
They don't have a lot of UK content.
Bye John
I don't think they have any UK content ... as they are a US company ... and they not in the UK. I have never seen any USLW assets with those springy "Buffer" thingies.


In my opinion, the selling point of TS12 was JointedRail content. $20 there buys you a lot of quality content as they have great prices and are not stingy with the freeware.*
In my humble opinion: The real selling point of TS12 that entices me, is the NKP Berkshire DLC ... I am expressing my opinion, I can't stress that enough, I just want to help you all understand it, But, as I said, this is only my experience and opinion, I don't know what I'm speculating, Listen and accept peoples differing view points, It is merely my opinion, But, as I said, this is only my experience and opinion, I just commented on this forum to express my opinion, You know my opinion on this matter so I'll leave that, I am expressing my opinion, I can't stress that enough, I must disagree with the 'newer is not always better'. In this case, I personally find that it is,

Getting back to the original point, and original topic of this thread: "Why-do-so-many-people-still-use-Trainz-2006 ?",

Someone actually wrote and posted these phrases in this thread, and I Quote: A thought that's just occurred is the amount of people still using trainz 2006, simply why ? Ok, lots of people keep asking me why it irritates me so much why users keep on using TRS06 so I will re-iterate what was originally posted. For those who don't have the ability to read things thoroughly: " It just irritates me the amount of people that when you release something, they make a request for a backdated version."

If you want to double check my posts then go ahead, you will not find me saying anywhere that TRS2006 will stop working at the flick of a switch,
I merely suggested that it is a possibility that it will stop working in the future, as I'm sure most games eventually will.
Eventually, something will happen that means '06 can no longer be used, as I'm sure will happen for TS12.
I have said this from the start, it's not spreading misleading information,
I'm not saying that in a few weeks TRS2006 will just stop working,
But that eventually something will happen like the DLS is cleared of all content dated before TS2009 or something
I don't know what I'm speculating.
But let's be honest, all games eventually get so out of date that they simply don't work.
People may get new computers that don't run TRS2006.
For example, my PC doesn't run MSTS anymore due to some compatibility issues.
In the future, something similar may occur with TRS2006. I don't want it to, but in all probability it's bound to happen.
When I say TRS2006 has a limited time left, I don't mean legally.
I mean that it's approaching its time to go.
I too have old games, but classics such as SimCity 4 which will never age.
TRS2006 unfortunately does not fall as a classic in my opinion,
So I think that users have limited time left in it before they must upgrade.
However, I still see why some people like it to more recent versions, and don't blame them for choosing it.
I just think that '06 has had its time.
I think that after a set deadline, eg: 31st December 2015 all content on the DLS should be available for TS2009 minimum,
And any existing content must be upgraded. It will force people to upgrade,
And while this may not be received well initially, realistically how long will users wait before upgrading?
Otherwise we'll always have people who continue to make assets only to be pestered to make them compatible with past versions of Trainz.
I can see why some people still use older versions, but I think they are on a very restricted time limit as to how long they can remain using them before they disappear.
I have to agree that TRS2006 is very outdated.
I'm still using TS10 because it's not dramatically different to the later versions of TS12
The vast majority of content on the DLS can still be used on TS10,
I'll upgrade when necessary, for example when it starts looking dated. I originally stopped using Trainz 06 for that reason.
I know my copy of trainz is 3 years old now which in computer terms is practically Victorian, but I'd rather use something that was Victorian rather than Stone Age.
So to conclude my rant about the Trainz 2006 Luddites; get with the times!

Someone actually wrote and posted these phrases in this thread, and I Quote: Lighten up please, and if you must insist on joining in on this thread, and :Jeez mate, lighten up I didn't think a train simulation game meant that much to you, and ... :Get with the times! and ... :Well you didn't have to read this thread if you feel that.

In short I have seen the light, and I too concur that TRS2006 is so dated, that everyone should jump ship right away, and get a higher version, before it's too late. But I am not saying that TRS2006 will stop working at the flick of a switch, I merely suggested that it is a possibility that it will stop working in the future, as I'm sure most games eventually will.
Eventually, something will happen that means '06 can no longer be used.

I used to love TRS2006, but I'm skipping right past my TS10, and going right for TS12, with SP1, so I can run the DLC NKP Berkshire ... Go TS12-SP1 ... Yea !

klambert
September 18th, 2013, 06:18 PM
I don't think they have any UK content ... as they are a US company ... and they not in the UK. I have never seen any USLW assets with those springy "Buffer" thingies.


In my humble opinion: The real selling point of TS12 that entices me, is the NKP Berkshire DLC ... I am expressing my opinion, I can't stress that enough, I just want to help you all understand it, But, as I said, this is only my experience and opinion, I don't know what I'm speculating, Listen and accept peoples differing view points, It is merely my opinion, But, as I said, this is only my experience and opinion, I just commented on this forum to express my opinion, You know my opinion on this matter so I'll leave that, I am expressing my opinion, I can't stress that enough, I must disagree with the 'newer is not always better'. In this case, I personally find that it is,

Getting back to the original point, and original topic of this thread: "Why-do-so-many-people-still-use-Trainz-2006 ?",

Someone actually wrote and posted these phrases in this thread, and I Quote: A thought that's just occurred is the amount of people still using trainz 2006, simply why ? Ok, lots of people keep asking me why it irritates me so much why users keep on using TRS06 so I will re-iterate what was originally posted. For those who don't have the ability to read things thoroughly: " It just irritates me the amount of people that when you release something, they make a request for a backdated version."

If you want to double check my posts then go ahead ...

... The vast majority of content on the DLS can still be used on TS10,
I'll upgrade when necessary, for example when it starts looking dated. I originally stopped using Trainz 06 for that reason.
I know my copy of trainz is 3 years old now which in computer terms is practically Victorian, but I'd rather use something that was Victorian rather than Stone Age.
So to conclude my rant about the Trainz 2006 Luddites; get with the times!

Someone actually wrote and posted these phrases in this thread, and I Quote: Lighten up please, and if you must insist on joining in on this thread, and :Jeez mate, lighten up I didn't think a train simulation game meant that much to you, and ... :Get with the times! and ... :Well you didn't have to read this thread if you feel that.

In short I have seen the light, and I too concur that TRS2006 is so dated, that everyone should jump ship right away, and get a higher version, before it's too late. But I am not saying that TRS2006 will stop working at the flick of a switch, I merely suggested that it is a possibility that it will stop working in the future, as I'm sure most games eventually will.
Eventually, something will happen that means '06 can no longer be used.

I used to love TRS2006, but I'm skipping right past my TS10, and going right for TS12, with SP1, so I can run the DLC NKP Berkshire ... Go TS12-SP1 ... Yea !

Ah a handy little post for summarising the whole thread, how useful ...

The trick with posting on the internet is to keep your posts, reasonably short and sweet.
I notice on your forum thingy that you actually use TS10.

Someone actually wrote and posted these phrases in this thread and I quote: "You'd also get pretty ticked off, if someone came around, intent on bashing your favorite thing in life, and said about yer' Dawg ... That it was so ugly ... That it should be shaved, & trained to walk backwards ... hit a sore spot ... you did ... Don't pour salt in my wound."

I think the use of the phrase 'lighten up' was justified in this instance.


If you want to go over thing with a fine-toothed comb, he repeated a form of misinformation that the game will stop working not once, but many times over. One could have cut him slack had he made the misinformed statement once, but not after reiterating it so many times.

Unfortunately, a lot of people really think that their software will up and stop working, and that they need to upgrade before that happens. The software industry depends on that ignorance/misinformation and does little to set the record straight.

Even worse is that an increasing number of software makers - including with the latest version of Trainz SP1 - literally have been implementing a kind of "kill switch" that would make PortLineParker's misinformation into a reality.

The reason why I switched was not due to hype or some sort of false intuition that TRS06 was going to magically vanish or corrupt on my PC, but merely because I wanted to be part of the ongoing evolution of trainz, I realised that TS10 was a vast improvement on TS06, as I'm sure is the same reason why most of other users on here switched. In fact I did my 'homework' on TS10 and I didn't buy the game until the 2nd patch for it was released.

cascaderailroad
September 18th, 2013, 07:27 PM
To sum things up, may I ask, what was the main overall reason that this thread was started in the first place, as it seems to start off from the "get go", pointing fingers at TRS2006 users, pointing out their poor choice of a Trainz program, telling them what to do, and shaming them for their own freedom of choice to run TRS2006 ?

There must have been an underlying reason "why" to start such a sickening, finger pointing, irritating thread, that seems to pick on peoples own freedom of choice to run TRS2006.

It really hurts to have your personal choices deliberately stomped on, degrading a whole group of Trainzers, which are pointed out in this thread as: O6 users.

I find this thread very insulting, and it seems to be deliberate, set out to degrade a certain group of Trainzers, which are pointed out in this thread as: O6 users.

This guy seems to have summed things up:

I've watched this thread since its start. And all the long drawn reasons aside, the reason is this. THEY CHOOSE TO. If you don't like their choice, oh well.

I humbly ask that moderators examine how insulting, and sickening it is to be discriminated against, by people criticizing our personal freedom of choice, and that this thread be closed !

If I started off a thread like this, I would be raked over the hot coals:


A thought that's just occurred is the amount of people still using trainz 2006, simply why? I'm going to get flamed for writing this but I much prefer using TS10, the Auran JET graphics engine has been slightly improved, everything looks crisper and better and I like the speed treez. It just irritates me the amount of people that when you release something, they make a request for a backdated version. Why are some users still using a game that's over 7 years old? I know some games are timeless like Simcity 4 and Railroad Tycoon, but Trainz 2006 hasn't aged well, most simulators rarely do (unless it's the Sims). Some of the pixels in Trainz 06 are like the size of a human fist.

But getting back on track, why do these people refuse to update? I mean it must be a pain in the backside with all this brilliant content that has been released being unavailable to download because you're still stuck in the 'good ol days when N3V was called Auran and all their stuff seemed to magically work without any dodgy patches needed, blah, blah, blah ...' Get with the times! I know my copy of trainz is 3 years old now which in computer terms is practically Victorian, but I'd rather use something that was Victorian rather than Stone Age.

So to conclude my rant about the Trainz 2006 Luddites; get with the times!

Yes I'm fully aware that my forum thingy says I've used trainz 2006, but that was back then.

You see this deliberately degrades an entire group of Trainzers ... and how hurtfull this forum is getting to be, with all the unpleasant pointing fingers, critcizing our personal freedom of choice.

I cry: This is Discrimination !

And I'm told: Lighten up, Get with the times, lie down, That the program I made a personal freedom of choice to run is, Quote: from the "Stone Age", I didn't think a train simulation game meant that much to you, and ... Get with the times ! and ... Well you didn't have to read this thread if you feel that, and that I/we 06 users are being forced to have to take this deliberate discrimination, like a slap in the face ! How awful an unpleasent place this forum is becomming !

The reason why I read the thead in the first place, was because it dirrectly insulted a group of Trainzers, and myself, being TRS2006 users, insulting our/my personal freedom of choice's.

Why do I care ? ... Because I do CARE !

There have been discrimination lawsuits all over the world against persons making discriminating statements and documents against specific types and groups of people.

Where the words 06 and TRS2006 exist in this thread, place instead there the words: TS09, TS10, Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, Hundu, Muslum, Christian, Hebrew, Male, Female ... etc ... etc ... all of the different sects of society ... and you will see the discrmination here, throghout this entire thread ! This sickens me to see this being allowed to happen here on the Forum !

And that is my own personal OPINION !

johnwhelan
September 18th, 2013, 08:01 PM
To sum things up, may I ask, what was the main overall reason that this thread was started in the first place, as it seems to start off from the "get go", pointing fingers at TRS2006 users, pointing out their poor choice of a Trainz program, telling them what to do, and shaming them for their own freedom of choice to run TRS2006 ?

There must have been an underlying reason "why" to start such a sickening, finger pointing, irritating thread, that seems to pick on peoples own freedom of choice to run TRS2006.

It really hurts to have your personal choices deliberately stomped on, degrading a whole group of Trainzers, which are pointed out in this thread as: O6 users.

I find this thread very insulting, and it seems to be deliberate, set out to degrade a certain group of Trainzers, which are pointed out in this thread as: O6 users.

This guy seems to have summed things up:


I humbly ask that moderators examine how insulting, and sickening it is to be discriminated against, by people criticizing our personal freedom of choice, and that this thread be closed !

If I started off a thread like this, I would be raked over the hot coals:



You see this deliberately degrades an entire group of Trainzers ... and how hurtfull this forum is getting to be, with all the unpleasant pointing fingers, critcizing our personal freedom of choice.

I cry: This is Discrimination !

And I'm told: Lighten up, Get with the times, lie down, That the program I made a personal freedom of choice to run is, Quote: from the "Stone Age", I didn't think a train simulation game meant that much to you, and ... Get with the times ! and ... Well you didn't have to read this thread if you feel that, and that I/we 06 users are being forced to have to take this deliberate discrimination, like a slap in the face ! How awful an unpleasent place this forum is becomming !

The reason why I read the thead in the first place, was because it dirrectly insulted a group of Trainzers, and myself, being TRS2006 users, insulting our/my personal freedom of choice's.

Why do I care ? ... Because I do CARE !

I'm not sure I agree with you. I create content and I have had numerous requests to modify content so it runs in an earlier version. A leftover from this are effectively duplicate versions in the DLS where the original was specially created for a particular version then it's been error corrected by the community to be error free when there was already an error free version on the DLS under a different kuid. I'm lazy, so creating and testing in more than one version of Trainz these days is I feel an imposition. People running old versions of Trainz do have an impact on other users, especially on the support side. Even on the forum there is only that much time and expertise lying around and it does get diverted into responding to questions on the earlier versions.

The thread has explored some of the reasons why people might like to stay with TRS2004, TRS2006, TC1, TC2, TC3. It has also explored some of the advantages of updating. I think it has explored some of the issues involved.

Are we saying that the subject is one of religion or belief and thus shouldn't be questioned?

Reality is a lot of TRS2004, TRS2006, TC1, TC2, and TC3 users never read the forums anyway so the thread won't have a huge impact, N3V's $9.99 will probably have more but if it manages to lessen the number of requests I get to back date content than I'm a happy camper and the thread's existence is more than justified.

Cheerio John

klambert
September 19th, 2013, 05:32 AM
To sum things up, may I ask, what was the main overall reason that this thread was started in the first place, as it seems to start off from the "get go", pointing fingers at TRS2006 users, pointing out their poor choice of a Trainz program, telling them what to do, and shaming them for their own freedom of choice to run TRS2006 ?

There must have been an underlying reason "why" to start such a sickening, finger pointing, irritating thread, that seems to pick on peoples own freedom of choice to run TRS2006.

It really hurts to have your personal choices deliberately stomped on, degrading a whole group of Trainzers, which are pointed out in this thread as: O6 users.

I find this thread very insulting, and it seems to be deliberate, set out to degrade a certain group of Trainzers, which are pointed out in this thread as: O6 users.

This guy seems to have summed things up:


I humbly ask that moderators examine how insulting, and sickening it is to be discriminated against, by people criticizing our personal freedom of choice, and that this thread be closed !

If I started off a thread like this, I would be raked over the hot coals:



You see this deliberately degrades an entire group of Trainzers ... and how hurtfull this forum is getting to be, with all the unpleasant pointing fingers, critcizing our personal freedom of choice.

I cry: This is Discrimination !

And I'm told: Lighten up, Get with the times, lie down, That the program I made a personal freedom of choice to run is, Quote: from the "Stone Age", I didn't think a train simulation game meant that much to you, and ... Get with the times ! and ... Well you didn't have to read this thread if you feel that, and that I/we 06 users are being forced to have to take this deliberate discrimination, like a slap in the face ! How awful an unpleasent place this forum is becomming !

The reason why I read the thead in the first place, was because it dirrectly insulted a group of Trainzers, and myself, being TRS2006 users, insulting our/my personal freedom of choice's.

Why do I care ? ... Because I do CARE !

There have been discrimination lawsuits all over the world against persons making discriminating statements and documents against specific types and groups of people.

Where the words 06 and TRS2006 exist in this thread, place instead there the words: TS09, TS10, Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, Hundu, Muslum, Christian, Hebrew, Male, Female ... etc ... etc ... all of the different sects of society ... and you will see the discrmination here, throghout this entire thread ! This sickens me to see this being allowed to happen here on the Forum !

And that is my own personal OPINION !

"To sum things up, may I ask, what was the main overall reason that this thread was started in the first place, as it seems to start off from the "get go", pointing fingers at TRS2006 users, pointing out their poor choice of a Trainz program, telling them what to do, and shaming them for their own freedom of choice to run TRS2006 ?"

Very reasonable question and one that I will obligingly answer, I started this thread to instigate a discussion about why some people still use TRS06 and the thread has explored some very interesting areas as John has already pointed out. There should be more threads like this, which has encouraged such a diverse range of opinions would be beneficial for the trainz forum.

The underlying reason why I posted this thread? Well lately I've started to really get into content creation, and I've had a recent spate of requests for my stuff to be backdated.
I'm not deliberately setting out to rubbish TRS06 users, I'm simply asking why they continue to use the game when, there is in my opinion bigger and better things available. I've had some very interesting responses and most of the other people who have replied to this thread didn't take it as a personal insult.
This wasn't intended as a personal insult to you or anybody else who uses Trainz 06, as I'm sure most of the other users can see.

"Where the words 06 and TRS2006 exist in this thread, place instead there the words: TS09, TS10, Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, Hundu, Muslum, Christian, Hebrew, Male, Female ... etc ... etc ... all of the different sects of society ... and you will see the discrmination here, throghout this entire thread ! This sickens me to see this being allowed to happen here on the Forum !"

I'm sorry but I do find this statement rather amusing, you've amazingly managed to compare me to a bigot by simply asking people why they won't update a computer game.

WindWalkr
September 19th, 2013, 06:29 AM
As an interesting aside from somebody who has been watching these forums for a long time:

Four years ago, this thread would have been about TRS2004. That was the version that "everybody" used. TRS2006 was a no-go zone, Trainz Classics was too niche, and TS2009 was too different.

Sound familiar?


As to people who use only TRS2006- I'm glad you like it. A lot of hard work went into it. Of course, a lot of hard work has gone into all the versions of Trainz, so we'd also love it if you tried some of the other versions- but all in its own time.

chris

oknotsen
September 19th, 2013, 06:49 AM
As to people who use only TRS2006- I'm glad you like it. A lot of hard work went into it. Of course, a lot of hard work has gone into all the versions of Trainz, so we'd also love it if you tried some of the other versions- but all in its own time.Glad you like TS2006... but to give you a hint in the right direction: People without a version past TS2006 can not use the DLS without an active FCT and new FCT's are not sold to you without a newer version (http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?105472-time-to-buy-a-fct-for-trs06&p=1200524#post1200524) :p.

WindWalkr
September 19th, 2013, 08:19 AM
Glad you like TS2006... but to give you a hint in the right direction: People without a version past TS2006 can not use the DLS without an active FCT and new FCT's are not sold to you without a newer version (http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?105472-time-to-buy-a-fct-for-trs06&p=1200524#post1200524) :p.

Firstly, N3V is a business- we support our active customers. Somebody who hasn't bought a game from us in ~8 years is not really a customer.

Secondly, if we were to sell you an FCT for TRS2006, you would rightly complain that (1) the download station is focused on the newer products, and (2) that we're not maintaining our systems in such a way that the older products will work. These would be very reasonable complaints if you were paying money for such a product. Since we don't have any interest in focusing on legacy products, we don't take people's money under that premise.

kind regards,

chris

cascaderailroad
September 19th, 2013, 09:24 AM
Now that we all fully understand about TRS2006 being unsupported, and the many benefits of higher versions of Trainz ... I respectfully ask: Can we please have this thread closed ?

It appears that this thread is a deliberately offensive, abrasively irritating topic, written by upper class Trainzers (TS09, TS10, TS12 users), and that this thread no longer serves any beneficial purpose, other than to irritate and aggravate those lower class Trainzers (in this case TRS2006 users), those who can not afford to buy higher versions of Trainz.

RJPugh
September 19th, 2013, 09:34 AM
Now that we all fully understand about TRS2006 being unsupported, and the many benefits of higher versions of Trainz ... I respectfully ask: Can we please have this thread closed ?

Or perhaps, leave it on an unused siding and keep rolling?
:hehe:

jjanmarine3
September 19th, 2013, 09:48 AM
With all respect - and pse forgive me if I have missed any points in previous discussions -
Why can't the latest upgrades and fixes be fixed so we can upgrade and fix our latest versions of trainz and still enjoy any earlier version we choose to.
It is a collection of trainz versions worth keeping .

WindWalkr
September 20th, 2013, 01:38 AM
I respectfully ask: Can we please have this thread closed ?

I think this thread has merit, and while a few people have been a bit pointed in their replies, I don't think anyone's going really over-the-top or being deliberately offensive. If the topic offends you, I'd recommend reading a different thread.



Why can't the latest upgrades and fixes be fixed so we can upgrade and fix our latest versions of trainz and still enjoy any earlier version we choose to.
It is a collection of trainz versions worth keeping .

I'm not really sure what you're asking here really. Could you please reword the question?


kind regards,

chris

jjanmarine3
September 20th, 2013, 02:12 AM
I'm not really sure what you're asking here really. Could you please reword the question?


kind regards,

chris[/QUOTE]

Hi WindWalkr.
I do not understand why the latest patches cannot be sorted ( as in the past ) so that everyone who wants to upgrade does not have to contend with all the problems it causes, will there be automatic patches from build 49922 upwards that work for everyone or will things stay as is .

shaneturner12
September 20th, 2013, 02:18 AM
There's a simple answer - if you do not want to contend with the problems, don't install the patch that causes said problems. Chris may have a different view, but that's how I see it.

Another thing - whether a patch works or doesn't work for someone is largely down to their specific system configuration.

Shane

obirek
September 20th, 2013, 02:31 AM
I use TRS2006 and TC. TRS2006 has more built-in content, but the latter allows for more accuracy in the Surveyor and smother ride in the Driver. I tried TS2009, but no thank you! My life is too short to wait until the blue screen disappear after I add a single tree in the Surveyor or to perform extensive database repair after downloading a single asset.

WindWalkr
September 20th, 2013, 03:05 AM
I do not understand why the latest patches cannot be sorted ( as in the past ) so that everyone who wants to upgrade does not have to contend with all the problems it causes..

As shane has suggested, this isn't really something that we can provide a one-size-fits-all answer for. SP1 with the current patches install works beautifully on the various test configurations that we maintain. We have in the past released a number of fixes for specific issues that people in the community have reported to us, and I expect that we will continue to do this in the future.



..will there be automatic patches from build 49922 upwards that work for everyone or will things stay as is .

Without getting into specific versions: we issue autopatches whenever we feel that it is appropriate. The only advantage of the autopatch is that it will prompt you to download it, rather than requiring you to download it yourself, so if there's a manual patch available for your build then feel free to install that instead of waiting for an autopatch.


kind regards,

chris

johnwhelan
September 20th, 2013, 08:29 AM
I use TRS2006 and TC. TRS2006 has more built-in content, but the latter allows for more accuracy in the Surveyor and smother ride in the Driver. I tried TS2009, but no thank you! My life is too short to wait until the blue screen disappear after I add a single tree in the Surveyor or to perform extensive database repair after downloading a single asset.

In a way this isn't suprising, TS2009 really was the first version of a huge revamp of the code, it primary reason for existence was to allow content creators something to play with so they could come to grips with the new code. There was a TS2009 content creators forum where we had deep discussions about how Trainz works and what works and what doesn't work performance wise etc. and I think it was the information that came out of that forum in many ways that has helped the SIM along. TS12 has evolved from the TS2009 code, TS2010 really was the first of the newer versions aimed at consumers.

Cheerio John

JCitron
September 20th, 2013, 12:59 PM
In a way this isn't suprising, TS2009 really was the first version of a huge revamp of the code, it primary reason for existence was to allow content creators something to play with so they could come to grips with the new code. There was a TS2009 content creators forum where we had deep discussions about how Trainz works and what works and what doesn't work performance wise etc. and I think it was the information that came out of that forum in many ways that has helped the SIM along. TS12 has evolved from the TS2009 code, TS2010 really was the first of the newer versions aimed at consumers.

Cheerio John

That's right. We seem to forget the legacy sometimes of where our beloved program comes from. It would be nice if N3V has something like this for future Trainz versions.

John

mikeaust
September 20th, 2013, 09:01 PM
Regarding the issue of people asking for later versions to be backdated, I say that 'Gimme Pigs are in all versions of trainz, so why tar all members who prefer the older versions with the same brush.

Windwalker's claim that users of old version are not customers grates on me as you can see I have a number of versions listed. This applies to many users, we just prefer to use the older ones.
My tree will not have another version after TS12 listed on it thats for sure.
Cheers,
Mike

sparky15
September 20th, 2013, 09:07 PM
I seem to remember a lot of users screaming creators not making content for newer versions after the 2009 release. Even now the accuse users of older versions somehow holding them back. Remember the you don't support N3V mantra after the 2009 release?
I do.

johnwhelan
September 21st, 2013, 07:11 AM
Regarding the issue of people asking for later versions to be backdated, I say that 'Gimme Pigs are in all versions of trainz, so why tar all members who prefer the older versions with the same brush.

Cheers,
Mike

I think the difference is the content has been made and is available in a later version so the end user has control if they want to use it or not. If I spend time back dating it that's time I'm not spending on creating something else. There is a cost involved and I don't see why the end user who wants something back dated shouldn't bear the cost.

Cheerio John

brakemen
September 21st, 2013, 08:23 AM
hello to all:

who cares if members uses trs06. so whats the big deal, we like trs06 and its our choice to choose to upgrade or not. case closed. I or we at trs06 could say that about trs04 but we are grown up enough not to bother them at something silly like this thread. this goes to the member who wrote this silly post anyway. this has nothing to do with the sponses in this thread.

I could say the same thing about your version in the future when your trinz version is 6 years old,
to the person who wrote this thread, do not make a federal case out this: case closed.




brakemen

Robertbc6
September 21st, 2013, 08:34 AM
@Windwalkr - If it is simply a business decision to not sell an FCT to the owner of a legacy product (2006 and older), so be it. BUT, I think it is a bit disingenuous to give your secondary reasons:

Secondly, if we were to sell you an FCT for TRS2006, you would rightly complain that (1) the download station is focused on the newer products, and (2) that we're not maintaining our systems in such a way that the older products will work. These would be very reasonable complaints if you were paying money for such a product. Since we don't have any interest in focusing on legacy products, we don't take people's money under that premise.

I doubt that you check whether an owner has TR12+SP1 before you sell them a "Nickel Plate High Speed Freight Set". Instead, you put a disclaimer with the ad that specifies the conditions under which the DLC will work. Why not put a similar disclaimer under the ads for the FCT, and let the prospective purchaser decide, as you do with the Berkshire DLC?

@ Legacy Trainz owners: Under the assumption that N3V does NOT change its policy, why not purchase and register 2009 or 2010 (around $10 US each). Then you can purchase any FCT you desire. I know, the FCT ends up costing more, but only once. I would take seriously, though, the concerns of WindWalkr (above, in bold). Remember, the FCT is a license to download from the DLS, NOT a license to badger creators to backdate newer content.

brakemen
September 21st, 2013, 10:34 AM
hello again:

this is to all creators for trainz versions earlier and later versions , my hats off to you, you guys really know how to make some great rolling stock and engines. so with out the creators for all these trainz versions for all the other members myself included we would be lost just to find some stuff for our version of trainz and even my version also which is becoming obsolete soon, but you know it does not bother me.

I'm willing to buy the trs2010 I think I'm ready now, I think once I get use to 2010 it will not be that bad.


thanks for all of the hard work in makeing the content for all the trainz simulators. if it is rolling stock,engines, industries, or just buildings. keep up the good work in the future trainz simulators and I might see you there.


keep chugging along

brakemen

johnwhelan
September 21st, 2013, 10:37 AM
hello again:

this is to all creators for trainz versions earlier and later versions , my hats off to you, you guys really know how to make some great rolling stock and engines. so with out the creators for all these trainz versions for all the other members myself included we would be lost just to find some stuff for our version of trainz and even my version also which is becoming obsolete soon, but you know it does not bother me.

I'm willing to buy the trs2010 I think I'm ready now, I think once I get use to 2010 it will not be that bad.


thanks for all of the hard work in makeing the content for all the trainz simulators. if it is rolling stock,engines, industries, or just buildings. keep up the good work in the future trainz simulators and I might see you there.


keep chugging along

brakemen

Why not go mad and get the $9.99 upgrade to TS12.

Cheerio John

shaneturner12
September 21st, 2013, 10:41 AM
I would love to know where the $9.99 version is, as it's not on Simulator Central.

Shane

johnwhelan
September 21st, 2013, 10:48 AM
I would love to know where the $9.99 version is, as it's not on Simulator Central.

Shane

An email was sent out to all registered users of Trainz who hadn't registered their copy of TS12. It's a discount code and I think someone posted it in the forum.

Cheerio John

shaneturner12
September 21st, 2013, 10:51 AM
Makes sense, although I know the non-discounted version is around $40.

Shane

oknotsen
September 21st, 2013, 02:49 PM
Sign-up for the newsletter; Every now and then there is a nice discount action.
Wasn't it with "fathers day" they also offered TS12 for $9,99?

cascaderailroad
September 21st, 2013, 03:30 PM
With TS12 Boxed Disc's, is the SP1 now included in the disc ?
I would want a disc without the pre-installed SP1

Suposedly the code also applies a 75% off price to the boxed disc order of $9.99 (but a $14.99 S&H boosts it back up to 24.95)

shaneturner12
September 21st, 2013, 03:56 PM
I'm signed up to the newsletter and didn't get the discount code, although I've gathered from another Trainz user that only users who didn't have TS12 registered got the code via the newsletter.

As for the boxed version, I don't know if it's got SP1 or not, but I know the digital download version has been said as having SP1 by quite a few users.

Shane

JCitron
September 21st, 2013, 04:08 PM
Is this a case of where the newsletter predates the updates on the Simulator Central server?

John

Supersub
October 10th, 2013, 01:06 PM
I find 2006 useful in removing shadow.pm file errors in 2009/10/12 where the config text file does not contain a pm file line. Import asset into 2006, remove shadow from mesh, save and commit. Open file in edit, delete original file from 2009/10/12 and import back . No shadow pm file error.

johnwhelan
October 10th, 2013, 05:29 PM
I find 2006 useful in removing shadow.pm file errors in 2009/10/12 where the config text file does not contain a pm file line. Import asset into 2006, remove shadow from mesh, save and commit. Open file in edit, delete original file from 2009/10/12 and import back . No shadow pm file error.

Yes but using pev's tool to add a shadow is fairly painless and the end result is more realistic.

Cheerio John

ShelLuser
October 11th, 2013, 04:09 AM
A thought that's just occurred is the amount of people still using trainz 2006, simply why? I'm going to get flamed for writing this but I much prefer using TS10, the Auran JET graphics engine has been slightly improved, everything looks crisper and better and I like the speed treez.
I see your 2006 and raise (?) you 2 years to go 2004.

When I first discovered Trainz I got it through "obscure" channels. Ran into the issue of sites where you couldn't download much content but in the end I had a nice playground to, well, play trains and without the hassle of having to clear the table to set up my H20 set.

Later on I ran into 2004 and that was the first version I got officially. It was a bit of a love / hate relationship because I was hoping to get access to more contents but unfortunately my expectations were set a bit too high. Nonetheless I heavily enjoyed that one to no end.

Forgot all about Trainz in the mean time and around 2009 I had moved to my current apartment, got myself a PS3 because I don't like playing games on the PC any longer (also because I heavily rely on my PC for work) but still got persuaded to grab Trainz 2009, which turned out into a huge disappointment for me. Ugh.. The critter hardly ran on my computer, slow, sluggish, hated it. But I still liked playing with trains every once in a while, so ended up with 2004. I could make routes, I could make some sceneries (I care more about the trains, the steering sections (I'm not an expert) and the track I can lay out (switches and stuff)).

Sceneries are nice, I love some of the tutorials and what you can do with the landscape, but to me it's only icing on the cake. Pixels the size of my 1024x768 monitor? Who cares. As long as I can see, imagine and enjoy what I'm playing with I'm happy.

Seems 2012 shifted things back in the right direction. I'm on the same hardware (did perform some minor upgrades in between) and it most certainly seems to bring back the feeling of being able to quickly and easily lay out some nice tracks.

So yeah; I see your 2006. Several months ago I was still firing up 2004 from time to time :)

PS: Sorry for barging in, just looking around and thought this thread to be interesting.

BLACKWATCH
October 11th, 2013, 10:39 AM
I'm on the same hardware (did perform some minor upgrades in between)

If you did some "upgrades", did that include "hardware" ?
If so that invalidates the first bit of the above quoted. Be nice to know what you upgraded, that allowed
TS12 to run better on a machine that 2009 wouldn't. :D

RRSignal
October 11th, 2013, 11:08 AM
Seems 2012 shifted things back in the right direction. I'm on the same hardware (did perform some minor upgrades in between) and it most certainly seems to bring back the feeling of being able to quickly and easily lay out some nice tracks.

If your machine runs TS12 well, it should run TS2010 well, especially if one of the minor upgrades included a video card or even just a new video driver. TS2009 and earlier versions are more CPU-bound, but whether or not that's really a problem depends as much on the content being used, not as much the game engine/hardware itself. Modern SpeedTrees, for instance, can be offloaded onto the GPU, letting the CPU do other work. But a lot of folks here will say that low-poly non-ST vegetation can actually boost performance, and some of it (especially recently released content by clam1952, etc.) look as good, if not better, than many SpeedTree-based assets.

ShelLuser
October 12th, 2013, 05:46 AM
If you did some "upgrades", did that include "hardware" ?
Yes and no (my favourite answer ;)).

Between then and now Windows Vista got replaced with Windows 7, which turned out into a huge advantage on all ends. I also increased the memory to the maximum capacity of 4Gb. And finally replaced a video card, but with another model which closely matched the specs I already had (my main concern was a good video card, not a high end one in order to play games).

So in my opinion minor upgrades.

epa
October 12th, 2013, 04:54 PM
I still have my TRS2006 just for nostalgia, and it's a great way to test compatibility of things I have backdated.

Plus, who ever said older isn't better?

johnwhelan
October 12th, 2013, 05:18 PM
Plus, who ever said older isn't better?

My knees for a start.

Cheerio John

epa
October 12th, 2013, 05:24 PM
My knees for a start.

Cheerio John

Oh you are funny... :sleep:

chrisaw
October 15th, 2013, 01:26 PM
I don't have a problem running TS12, and am happy to test new content in it, but I find it very tiring on my eyes.
TC3 is much easier viewing so I stay there.
Chris.

Driver_Col
October 16th, 2013, 02:26 AM
I don't have a problem running TS12, and am happy to test new content in it, but I find it very tiring on my eyes.
TC3 is much easier viewing so I stay there.
Chris.

Great Chris! I too have TS12 but for reasons of persistent frustration have returned to TC3. In fact I only recently discovered Trunda's trees so am re-landscaping my routes there (TC3). Regards. Colin.