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nicky9499
July 29th, 2013, 12:01 AM
There's a recent discussion regarding reskinning a payware locomotive and I have a few questions of my own.

I notice, as far as Trainz is concerned, you can't release a reskin on its own. There's no CMP filter called "reskin" or something like that, so when you export to CDP you're actually putting the payware engine/traincar in as well. Drawing parallels to the flight simulation hobby with which I am also familiar, specifically FS9 and FSX, what a user would do is to package up his "texture.myrepaint" folder of his repaint and release that. In the release notes it will say for example "you will need the PMDG 747X in order to use this reskin". Simple.

Is it not possible we have that in Trainz? There are some talented reskinners here and there are certainly fantastic payware here, so it would be the best of both worlds if that were possible. The present confusion may drive away talented people who wish to reskin a payware item into either their own road or other roads that the payware developer have not covered.

Cheerio,
Nicholas

bentrain14
July 29th, 2013, 12:24 AM
Ive been able to get permission for the release of one skin to someone but I couldnt give out the loco. I got it from mike from JR. Anyways, its best to get the owners permission before releasing just the skin even if it is just the skin. Like I was talking to ryan today to see if I could do a reskin his metra cars when he released them and he said only for personal use and I couldnt release them to the public. But as far as I know, the people in the forums dont like it when you release a payware skin (JUST THE SKIN) even with permission so i am avoiding it.

nicky9499
July 29th, 2013, 12:34 AM
The "recent discussion" was referring to you and your F40PH (which looks nice, by the way). Getting permission goes without saying. As for "personal", yea I guess a user could do anything he wants so long as he keeps it to himself, paint it pink, even rip open the mesh and add euro buffers or whatever.

Anyhow, my point was, why can't we adopt the same approach to reskins as the flightsim community?

bentrain14
July 29th, 2013, 12:37 AM
Well its simple, to much piracy in this huge community. We all remember fishworldhacker right? He reskinned payware and gave it to people ,might I add he gave out the actual loco. I guess since then people have been very edgy about content. and like i said, we are a huge community. So much can happen.

norfolksouthern37
July 29th, 2013, 01:42 AM
not to mention that- though i have little control over it, i get kinda miffed when people call a reaskin some simple recoloring of work that i have done. this really isnt fair, as i took the time to draw everything from a scratch canvas, and all you have done is put a color on it. at this point, it would become a matter of 'ok how much did you really do for this so-called reskin'. this is why i have stopped making spec maps like i used to, because i was essentially giving out a blank copy of my maps for anyone to come along and claim they did some work on. now i dont mind seeing some nice work on my stuff dont get me wrong, but there is always that excess level of incompetence as mentioned above, that makes it worth it for me not to even consider.

nicky9499
July 29th, 2013, 02:27 AM
Hi Justin,

Thank you for your views on this. I agree that patch jobs or repaints which contain a significant amount of the original paint should not qualify as proper reskins. However there are talented reskinners out there which make unique paints of both fictional and other not-yet-made real world roads and it would be nice if they were able to share these.

Cheerio,
Nicholas

chrisaw
July 29th, 2013, 04:27 AM
Hi Justin,

there are talented reskinners out there which make unique paints of both fictional and other not-yet-made real world roads and it would be nice if they were able to share these.

Cheerio,
Nicholas

Isn't it a simple matter of contacting the payware originator and making a deal to the advantage of both parties?

Chris.

rickf77
July 29th, 2013, 05:16 AM
That's what I've started doing, Chris. I just can't ask a person to do something for me and not have some way of returning the favour. I'm guessing even sending a "gift" of a FCT or something would be wrong. So, I contact the originator and ask them if they would be interested in reskinning or maybe reworking their work. This is great for me as I can get what I need and can "return the favour". I still sort of feel like a gimme pig, but at least I've been able to show my appreciation. As a bonus, what I wanted was later released to the community as freeware. Dang fine freeware! So, in a very, very small way, I sort of feel I contributed something to the community. I have tried to learn how to reskin items. I just can't do it! I had to give my photo shop program to a friend. It was that or use the discs for target practice! The stress from trying to learn something, and not getting anywhere was just too much for me!

Cheers....Rick

nicky9499
July 29th, 2013, 08:17 AM
Isn't it a simple matter of contacting the payware originator and making a deal to the advantage of both parties?

Chris.

That is possible and provided the reskin is to the liking of the payware creator and the reskinner has asked politely, I don't see why this won't work. What I'm wary of are the "copyright police" that are too eager to snap at people. Bentrain, for example, has made some reskins for his own railroad that - as far as I can discern - are completely original works, has stated that should he release them he would first obtain the creator's permission, and yet was attacked by various users lecturing him on the finer points of copyright law.

Cheerio,
Nicholas

johnwhelan
July 29th, 2013, 08:39 AM
There's a recent discussion regarding reskinning a payware locomotive and I have a few questions of my own.

I notice, as far as Trainz is concerned, you can't release a reskin on its own. There's no CMP filter called "reskin" or something like that, so when you export to CDP you're actually putting the payware engine/traincar in as well. Drawing parallels to the flight simulation hobby with which I am also familiar, specifically FS9 and FSX, what a user would do is to package up his "texture.myrepaint" folder of his repaint and release that. In the release notes it will say for example "you will need the PMDG 747X in order to use this reskin". Simple.

Is it not possible we have that in Trainz? There are some talented reskinners here and there are certainly fantastic payware here, so it would be the best of both worlds if that were possible. The present confusion may drive away talented people who wish to reskin a payware item into either their own road or other roads that the payware developer have not covered.

Cheerio,
Nicholas

Technically what you could do is upload an asset such as a simple house that includes the reskin texture file with a comment to say if you copy this reskin texture file into a clone of xyz you should see the reskin.

Cheerio John

bentrain14
July 29th, 2013, 12:31 PM
thats why I dont like doing patches. If im gonna pull together a skin im gonna make a full skin.

KingConrail76
July 29th, 2013, 08:57 PM
Hi Justin,

Thank you for your views on this. I agree that patch jobs or repaints which contain a significant amount of the original paint should not qualify as proper reskins. However there are talented reskinners out there which make unique paints of both fictional and other not-yet-made real world roads and it would be nice if they were able to share these.

Cheerio,
Nicholas

I don't think you fully understand Justin's point, or maybe I am reading too much into it, as someone who has made content for MSTS and done reskins in both MSTS and Trainz (for personal use).

Even a completely unique "reskin" is still based on the original Texture Maps. There is not one single example that I am aware of, of one single item that has ever been "reskinned" completely and 100% from scratch. From scratch means a plain white canvas in your texture program.

Each and every "reskin" uses the original Texture Maps, be they "patched" or de-colorized then re-painted. They are using the original creators door lines, grills, wire mesh patterns, door handles, hood seams, rivets, etc., etc.

I think Justin's point is that he spent MANY MANY hours drawing those DETAILS to make the engine or rolling stock look so good, so it isn't fair to him, or other original creators, to simply recolor the original texture maps and call it an "original work", because quite honestly, it is NOT original at all, just a different color and stripe pattern.

Just my $1.95 and opinion.

edit-addendum; I think the reason it is acceptable in MSTS so widely is because Microsoft abandonded the software, and the payware creators realise that the communities repaints are the only think keeping them in business, where-as, N3V are still developing new versions, and patching old ones, so they are in-effect keeping Trainz alive, not the community at-large keeping the payware viable.

nicky9499
July 29th, 2013, 09:15 PM
Hi KingConrail76,

That is a good point, and the content creator deserves full credit for the texture map. Perhaps a friendly arrangement of sorts can be made with the payware creator for the usage of such content maps, either through a small fee for its usage or some relinquishment of rights and credit for the new paint (to the payware creator).

On the flipside, the flight simulation payware community is comparatively much more encouraging when it comes to repaints. PMDG, known for making a few of the most expensive payware aircraft in the hobby, release entire paint kits for their products. McPhat Studios, which make ultra-HD textures (originally most of which for PMDG) even gives out their paint kits for reskinners who can demonstrate acceptable skill and quality.

A well made repaint of a payware product could have positive benefits for the payware creator. A user may find a repaint; "oh that's a nice livery and it would go great with this route, I'll buy the engine so that I can use it". For example.

Nevertheless the above are just personal musings in a perfect world. Feel free to critique.

Cheerio,
Nicholas

norfolksouthern37
July 29th, 2013, 09:46 PM
yes but then you get into the gray area. allow me to be totally honest:

ill put it this way, some of you can make nice skins... some of you. most of you are terrible and i get sick when you to try recolor my textures to something you want. if i allowed textures and skins to be released only on the basis i like them (and come to think of it, i kinda do that with freeware already) i would stand behind that statement, but then id be called out as the most unfair bla bla bla in the world payware sucks boycott JR who are you to say... it goes on and on. again, it isnt really beneficial for someone like me, or JR to allow 'reskins' to be distributed freely.

just maybe if N3V wasnt around, as is outlined above, then it would at least hold a little interest in the software and make it worth while to both parties, but right now, i would rather be providing the skins.

NOT that this thread is all about JR. i think i am the only one willing to weigh in on it though.