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BidMod
May 12th, 2007, 10:32 AM
Hi all,

Is anyone interested in a little bit of competition? I do - so I've been thinking about how a competition could be organised, and the rules that might need to be introduced. This thread for discussion of the idea, not an announcement.

My opinion is that the only difficult bit is the voting system, but I think this could be achieved as a poll by Auran on this board, or by UKTrainz on their board (I'll ask both if people are interested, but I make no guarantees on either of their behalfs. I would not have a poll on both, because getting the aggregate result is not as simple as adding the results together).

Rather than say "this is the competition", here are a set of rules that would be implemented for a competition, and I would like to know if people are interested.

British theme (perhaps someone else could run another themed competition in parallel)
No more than 15 boards (otherwise testing and opinion finding would take forever)
Must contain a railway (seems obvious, but I bet someone doesn't)
1 man (or woman) 1 layout; though "man" could be substituted with "team" so 1 team 1 layout - team members must not enter another layout
Must be uploaded to the DLS for easy access
Must contain only DLS assets for easy access
These two rules are to ensure that the layouts are available to everyone anywhere, rather than to produce a community split I fear coming over the DLS issue
Another alternative would be to create a list of acceptable sites and include a detailed list of assets and locations in the readme.
1 man (or woman) 1 vote
Deadline for layouts to be set in August, to allow the best layouts to be developed
Session also to be uploaded to demonstrate the layout's potential.
Compatbility is not guaranteed across all versions, so it is up to the developer to decide which version of TRS will be used. Common sense dictates that the ideal solution is to use the lowest version possible, however this is not always possible.
Somewhere in the description add the line "2007 route builders competition" spelt letter for letter - this will allow people to search the DLS using that term to find all of the routes in the competition.
No Payware please - a discussion about this is for another thread I think.
All work must be your own.Marking Criteria

Entertainment value - this is by far the most important
Operational potential
AI operation - does it operate without conflicts with each other etc.
Good use of space available to create a suitable landscape
Prototypical appearance - this does not mean the layout has to be modelled on a real place: this refers to aspects such as signal positions, track alignments, corner radii etc.Ideally, this is to see if we can produce several good layouts in three months, but I won't be able to check this.

Things that wouldn't be restricted are time period, gauge, traction type or colour scheme. There is nothing wrong with mixing time/traction as well, so you could create a system where 1930s trams nestle with the latest high speed trains and broad gauge chuffering along in the back. This is an opportunity to create a spectacular short route, not to start counting rivets of the stock that a user could change in any case.

Reminder - this thread is not to announce a competition, only to put my thoughts forward for dicussion. It also relies on the cooperation of Auran so we can use the vote facility, so could someone representitive of the forums have some inpute. Naturally, we would need to start a thread to register all of the entrants, and just before the final closing date a poll would be set up containing these entrants' usernames (and the layout name for reference).

BidMod.

EDIT: Been thinking further about the exceptions to the DLS rules, and I think assets from VSR and HP Trainz should be exempt, simply because they are so widespread. Post what you think should be added to the list. No payware.

colinknapp
May 12th, 2007, 11:21 AM
hey up,

I put forward the idea that all members of ITrainz enter a similar competition to what you are proposing, except their modules would all be IPortal compatiable.

I would be happy to take part in such a competition, although for me seperating what is built in and what has been downloaded could be a problem!

and my layout design skills aren't exactly the best, but i would give it a shot!

BidMod
May 12th, 2007, 11:58 AM
You can use Built-in content - it's probably a bit vague my comment about the DLS. The idea is to make the entries available to everyone, so built in and DLS content would be fine. I thought of HP trains as an exception because a lot of people use the track from there.

I should add that I'm planning to enter a layout of my own, which is why I need the help with the voting (to prove it's fairly done).

As for skills - again I want the competition to be available to anyone who has a fully registered copy of TRS, so have a shot even if a single board is tricky. There is no minimum size - only a maximum, so if you create a one-board masterpiece then enter it.

BidMod.

PS check the link in your sig. ;)

WileeCoyote
May 12th, 2007, 12:07 PM
British themed? Why is it always British? Nothing from elsewhere(hint hint)?

WileeCoyote:D

rockster
May 12th, 2007, 05:30 PM
British theme (perhaps someone else could run another themed competition in parallel)i think that point was covered here ;)

WileeCoyote
May 12th, 2007, 05:54 PM
(read in voice like that of Mr. Burns from The Simpsons)

Excellent... let the layout wars begin (maniacal laughter);).

WileeCoyote:D

rjhowie1
May 12th, 2007, 10:05 PM
An interesting concept. As to why it should be British. Funnily being an Australian "game" it just happens that someone British thought of a comp first! Could have been anywhere?!

Gangsta_Boi
May 13th, 2007, 04:25 AM
The only reason i could think of it being British themed is, Bidmod is British (i hope:p ) and most of the judges may be British too, so have a greater knowlege of how the british railways work

Put my name down as an entry please.

Gangsta_Boi

paulzmay
May 13th, 2007, 04:57 AM
Sounds like an interesting idea... some potential for bruised egos I fear, but it should be fun, and generate quite a few more UK routes for us all to play with. I suspect I won't be playing, as 15 boards would usually take me over a year... :rolleyes:

Paul

BidMod
May 13th, 2007, 05:41 AM
The only reason i could think of it being British themed is, Bidmod is British (i hope:p )

Yes, I am British. I daresay if an American had the idea then it would be American themed, and Australia ditto.

Paul - there's nothing to stop you entering a three or four board layout. I set 15 as a maximum, not a target. I tend to run out of patience with a layout around 10 boards anyway, so my current layout is quite special as it now comprises 11 boards.

As you say, there is the potential for bruised egos, but I hope we can have a small competition without getting to each other too much!

BidMod the Brit.

paulzmay
May 13th, 2007, 05:55 AM
Hmmm - I might be tempted...

Do they have to be new (i.e. unstarted at the moment), or just unpublished as yet?

Paul

BidMod
May 13th, 2007, 06:00 AM
Do they have to be new (i.e. unstarted at the moment), or just unpublished as yet?

The idea is to create a new layout, but I wouldn't complain if you simply entered an unpublished one.

One more thing I should add is that you can't use another person't route as a base. That's cheating (not aimed at anyone specifically, but I think the people are there who may try).

BidMod
May 13th, 2007, 11:24 AM
There has been a post on the UKTrainz forum about an incentive, and the possibility of using an independany jury instead of a community poll.

Has anyone any thoughts on an incentive/prize, and what do people think of the panel idea to replace the poll idea?

BidMod.

Gangsta_Boi
May 13th, 2007, 11:49 AM
Unless you get sponsership from a payware company (i.e railwaves, eldavos etc.) It could be a FREE payware object of their choice ? Or a personalized reskin from one of our resident reskinners.

My 2 pence worth,

Gangsta_Boi

overmars
May 13th, 2007, 11:52 AM
Can you guys put me down as a judge. Course if i can be a judge then i wont enter a route.

But then this idear is pretty pointless as the people with the most powerfull computers will have the best looking routes.

What about people who dont know how to use the track strightner.

BidMod
May 13th, 2007, 12:15 PM
Unless you get sponsership from a payware company (i.e railwaves, eldavos etc.) It could be a FREE payware object of their choice ? Or a personalized reskin from one of our resident reskinners.

Could be an interesting idea. I mentioned on the UKTRS forum that I could supply some personalised trams, but I also pointed out that this is something of a niche market and probably not much of an incentive. If I was honest, I can't really see Railwaves or any of the third party payware creators being interested.


Can you guys put me down as a judge. Course if i can be a judge then i wont enter a route.

But then this idear is pretty pointless as the people with the most powerfull computers will have the best looking routes.

What about people who dont know how to use the track strightner.

1 - you are welcome if the project gets big enough. Of all of the people on this board you are certainly one of the best qualified for the task.

2 - Well actually no, because if a mix of high and low spec judges (again the community poll thought is ringing here) were to make a decision, then a high detail route won't actually run that well on 50% of the computers. Take a look back at my marking criteria: numbers 1 and 2 would be seriously hampered by the sheer detail. A sensible route-builder would be able to mix high and low poly objects, and offset the effect of reduced frame rates by adjusting the speeds and frequecy of trains through the affected areas.

3 - I bet there's something each of us doesn't know. For example, you mentioned the track straightener, elsewhere I've seen some really poor signalling, poor track alignment, use of double-track splines is a real nasty.
We're all on a learning curve, and perhaps this competition might highlight some of the best "tactics" of route creation. I for one am looking forward to seeing construction techniques of the winner(s).
That said, the track straightening tool is quite simple, and I'd like to think that this was not the limit of potential of our route creators - it's invaluable in creating complex junctions and smooth curves, for example.

Alan_Yeomans
May 13th, 2007, 09:21 PM
Yeah, I like quality layouts and anything that encourages them. I'm happy to run a poll, but i will need to ascertain exactly how many polling options we can have... leave that with me.
We may be able to offer a free 12 month FCT (or 04, 06 or other product) to the winner.

I'll also offer my thoughts on your suggested rules...
1. British??? no fair.
2. 15 bb's is alot. I recall our last one was 4 bb's.
3. Invisible railway counts. :)
4. OK
5. of course
6. wherever possible. minor exceptions would be OK
7. cant enforce this with a forum poll. anyone with a valid username (s/n registered in it) can vote.
8. OK
9. OK
10. OK
11. OK
12. OK
13. OK

and am i allowed to enter? :)

CoolMatty
May 14th, 2007, 01:31 AM
Is it for hose just on 06 or can 04 users enter? If so, then couldn't there be seperate categories (04 and 06)? Just a thought. I might be able to enter if I can get some projects out of the way.

CoolMatty

Lord-Claud-Hamilton
May 14th, 2007, 03:14 AM
I'll also offer my thoughts on your suggested rules...
1. British??? no fair.


Folks,

I think the point is being missed here. All I think Bidmod is saying is that this particular competion is for UK based routes only. Competitions for routes from other nations coulkd be run at the same time. He's not trying to exclude anybody.

Think of it another way then, we have one big international competition, but with sub-catagories for each county (UK, USA, Australia etc, etc). The best three from each catagory go through to the grand final....or something like that.

Lord-Claud-Hamilton
May 14th, 2007, 03:17 AM
Hi all,

Somewhere in the description add the line "2007 route builders competition" spelt letter for letter - this will allow people to search the DLS using that term to find all of the routes in the competition.


Could this be shortened to 'RBC07' or 'RBC07UK' or something similar please?

A route called 'Worthington City General 2007 route builders competition' might not fit...:D :rolleyes:

WileeCoyote
May 14th, 2007, 06:42 AM
Folks,

I think the point is being missed here. All I think Bidmod is saying is that this particular competion is for UK based routes only. Competitions for routes from other nations coulkd be run at the same time. He's not trying to exclude anybody.

Think of it another way then, we have one big international competition, but with sub-catagories for each county (UK, USA, Australia etc, etc). The best three from each catagory go through to the grand final....or something like that.

Good idea there, I've considered doing a German one, but in the German forums as here there seems to be little interest for German railroading. But the country sub-category and then to a grand final? I think this is an excellent idea, if theres enough interest we could perhaps make it an annual thing.

WileeCoyote:D

Lord-Claud-Hamilton
May 14th, 2007, 08:30 AM
2. 15 bb's is alot. I recall our last one was 4 bb's.


You could break this down to further categories as well. 1 BB, 4 BB etc, etc.

Yes, I know this would complicate things, but thought I'd suggest it anyway :p .

I'd personally love to see a category for layouts no bigger than Five Grid squares by Twenty Grid Squares :D ;)

I have a couple already partly done!

Chris

rockster
May 14th, 2007, 11:21 AM
hi, is there any need for people to create a route specially for this competition, could we not have a system where we could encourage users to put forward routes they have downloaded and think that theyre worthy of going to a poll.

i think it is a good idea to have a little competition like this, if alan could organise a FCT for the winner/s that would be a great reward, however i think the august deadline maybe a little early, i think there are some nice looking small routes out there but i personally like a route with a bit more functionality to it, would a 6 monthly competition not be a better idea?

cheers

Gav

BidMod
May 14th, 2007, 11:32 AM
British theme (perhaps someone else could run another themed competition in parallel)
No more than 15 boards (otherwise testing and opinion finding would take forever)
Must contain a railway (seems obvious, but I bet someone doesn't)
1 man (or woman) 1 layout; though "man" could be substituted with "team" so 1 team 1 layout - team members must not enter another layout
Must be uploaded to the DLS for easy access
Must contain only DLS assets for easy access
These two rules are to ensure that the layouts are available to everyone anywhere, rather than to produce a community split I fear coming over the DLS issue
Another alternative would be to create a list of acceptable sites and include a detailed list of assets and locations in the readme.
1 man (or woman) 1 vote
Deadline for layouts to be set in August, to allow the best layouts to be developed
Session also to be uploaded to demonstrate the layout's potential.
Compatbility is not guaranteed across all versions, so it is up to the developer to decide which version of TRS will be used. Common sense dictates that the ideal solution is to use the lowest version possible, however this is not always possible.
Somewhere in the description add the line "2007 route builders competition" spelt letter for letter - this will allow people to search the DLS using that term to find all of the routes in the competition.
No Payware please - a discussion about this is for another thread I think.
All work must be your own.Marking Criteria

Entertainment value - this is by far the most important
Operational potential
AI operation - does it operate without conflicts with each other etc.
Good use of space available to create a suitable landscape
Prototypical appearance - this does not mean the layout has to be modelled on a real place: this refers to aspects such as signal positions, track alignments, corner radii etc.EDIT: Been thinking further about the exceptions to the DLS rules, and I think assets from VSR and HP Trainz should be exempt, simply because they are so widespread. Post what you think should be added to the list. No payware.


Yeah, I like quality layouts and anything that encourages them. I'm happy to run a poll, but i will need to ascertain exactly how many polling options we can have... leave that with me.
We may be able to offer a free 12 month FCT (or 04, 06 or other product) to the winner.

I'll also offer my thoughts on your suggested rules...
1. British??? no fair.
2. 15 bb's is alot. I recall our last one was 4 bb's.
3. Invisible railway counts. :)
4. OK
5. of course
6. wherever possible. minor exceptions would be OK
7. cant enforce this with a forum poll. anyone with a valid username (s/n registered in it) can vote.
8. OK
9. OK
10. OK
11. OK
12. OK
13. OK

and am i allowed to enter? :)

Hi Alan,

It's good to see the support of Auran here - that means a lot to us as a community and I hope we see the back of the "Auran is something nasty" posts :)

I think that the comments you have added fill in some of the detail I omitted originally, but could you tell us a little about last time? I guess it must have been when we had the old forum, which I only ever lurked on and even then only at the very end; so I don't know much about the last competition.

The only point I would argue is that 4 baseboards can produce a brilliant layout, but it would be quite short and restrictive for some people. Would it not be better to move with the times and produce something bigger, as computers nowadays can easily handle such layouts? Perhaps some more people could comment on this.

In answer to your last point, you are welcome to enter as long as you don't plan to rig the vote :D.

The idea of creating catagories interests me, especially a 100 baseboard idea - are you sure you typed that right LCH, because 15 - 100 is a big jump? I think shortening the tag to add to the description is definately a good idea though, since it would be easy to introduce a typo.

Alan - RE: the prize - I guess you would have to clear this with your superiors before offering it, but I would really appreciate this if you could offer it.

RE: the vote - I had in mind that it would be possible to vote for the route creator in a single poll, but I guess if a huge number of people enter then we may need to have heats and ultimately a final, which would make it a little more fair.

Rockster - part of the idea is to encourage more small routes - as many of the routes currently available are large and require a large number of dependencies: not good for non-FCT people such as myself. Think of this as like creating a model railway. Think: What can I do with this small space which will give me hours of entertainment? It is not uncommon to compress several miles of track into about 1 scale mile, perhaps the same could be done here? The key thing I've tried to express is that to many people operational and entertainment value is more important then placing the buidings to within 1m of their real position (you'll come unstuck if you do this anyway, due to the curvature of the planet - explained elsewhere).

BidMod

CoolMatty
May 14th, 2007, 11:44 AM
The idea of creating catagories interests me, especially a 100 baseboard idea - are you sure you typed that right LCH, because 15 - 100 is a big jump? I think shortening the tag to add to the description is definately a good idea though, since it would be easy to introduce a typo.



Will the categories be just baseboard sizes or versions of Trainz? (this next point may seem dumb but...) Aren't 06 layouts going to be more detailed due to the higher graphics quality with newer games? :confused: I could be wrong. I don't want to put the competition down. If it's not split categories I'll be fine with it. If there are different categories for 04 and 06 I could judge the 04... Just a thought.

CoolMatty

BidMod
May 14th, 2007, 11:51 AM
I can't see a reason to segregate the layouts by size, however it may be necessary to split '06 and '04, but not because of detail levels. I believe these will be the same whether the user is using '04 or '06. It would simply be because '06 layouts won't open in '04 without config changes, and then looking through the assets to ensure you aren't using any '06 items. Thus, '06 layouts are disadvantaged, contrary to your view, as fewer people will be able to use them.

My entry would be an '06 entry, by the way.

More comments on this would be interesting, and also on the voting system. As far as I can see the poll idea is the better, but is this everyone's view?

BidMod.

CoolMatty
May 14th, 2007, 12:00 PM
Thus, '06 layouts are disadvantaged, contrary to your view, as fewer people will be able to use them.



Said I might be wrong!:D

That's great. I think the poll voting is a good idea. Will the only votes come from the judges of the routes or will anyone vote? I could judge the 04 category if there is a place. If not I will enter. :) When will be the final closing date? :confused:

Great suggestion on the competition!:cool:

CoolMatty

BidMod
May 14th, 2007, 01:20 PM
I think everyone should be able to vote in the competition whether they entered a layout or not. They'd even be able to vote for him/herself (before anyone questions that, just think - who does Tony Blair vote for?), though they don't have to.

Besides, in most voluntary polls only around 10% of people asked actually respond, and I guess the same is probably true here.

Maybe if the competition gets too big we'd need judges to decide a shortlist, but that may complicate things a little.

Keep those ideas flowing :)

BidMod.

Lord-Claud-Hamilton
May 14th, 2007, 04:47 PM
The idea of creating catagories interests me, especially a 100 baseboard idea - are you sure you typed that right LCH, because 15 - 100 is a big jump? BidMod

Whoa....did I type 100 Baseboards? If so, then yes, it's a typo. Geeze, it takes me long enough to detail a ten baseboard map, let alone that many.

Having said that, now that I've looked, I can't find where I did post 100 BB's to correct it?

chris

rockster
May 14th, 2007, 06:01 PM
I'd personally love to see a category for layouts no bigger than Five Grid squares by Twenty Grid Squares :D ;)

Chris

hi, i think this is what he means, 5 x 20 = 100

not sure if hes joking or if he didnt understand your joke:)

Lord-Claud-Hamilton
May 15th, 2007, 07:06 AM
hi, i think this is what he means, 5 x 20 = 100

Aha.....by Grid Square i meant the 10mtr x 10mtr squares you see in surveyor before ground texture is added. So, smaller than a single baseboard. Just like my Little How and Skinners Lane routes basically.

CoolMatty
May 15th, 2007, 12:19 PM
This competition, what is happening about it? I'm certainly interested but I'd like to know the closing date (for definite) and the judging. I have suggestions:

1) A randomly selected group (who volunteer) judge each route in a category. Seperate judge groups for categories (e.g 04 and 06). They feed back through either email or a thread on the Forum anyone can read. They come up with a decision for a winner.

2) Closing Date not to be August. Being May now and an uncertainty on details could cause confusion. Maybe a deadline this year but something like November or something.

I hope I don't sound annoying.

CoolMatty

BidMod
May 15th, 2007, 02:43 PM
1) A randomly selected group (who volunteer) judge each route in a category. Seperate judge groups for categories (e.g 04 and 06). They feed back through either email or a thread on the Forum anyone can read. They come up with a decision for a winner.
I'd like to keep the voting as open as possible, but we'll see what other people have to say about this.


2) Closing Date not to be August. Being May now and an uncertainty on details could cause confusion. Maybe a deadline this year but something like November or something.
I think this is a good idea. Some people will have finished by August, wheras other's won't and it is not fair to make people rush. We do need to finalize some details soon though I think, as you point out there could be some confusion.


I hope I don't sound annoying.
I appreciate the feedback. Without it, I could just set some rules and people would say "well I don't like your rules so I'll do my own thing". More feedback from a variety of people wanted :D

BidMod.

PS: apologies for the confusion about baseboard sizes - I see what you mean now ;)
Actually, that's quite a good idea, if it weren't for the fact that the short portals cause all sorts of problems. :( It would certainly be a challenge - the station I built this afternoon is bigger than that.

CoolMatty
May 16th, 2007, 12:49 AM
I'd like to keep the voting as open as possible, but we'll see what other people have to say about this.

It would require everyone to download the routes to make the voting fair. On the other hand everyone could vote. Tricky. In the actual thread you could have a list of the routes that have entered so you can direct people to them.

How 'bout that?

EDIT: Oh, what about a session or something to go with it. When answering the "poly" question you said about operations to keep it right. Also two criteria say entertainment and operational (no AI confusion). This surely would need a session to show these? Have I just complicated things?

CoolMatty

BidMod
May 16th, 2007, 10:02 AM
9. Session also to be uploaded to demonstrate the layout's potential.

Already covered that one :D


Marking Criteria

Entertainment value - this is by far the most important
Operational potential
AI operation - does it operate without conflicts with each other etc.
Good use of space available to create a suitable landscape
Prototypical appearance - this does not mean the layout has to be modelled on a real place: this refers to aspects such as signal positions, track alignments, corner radii etc.

CoolMatty
May 16th, 2007, 10:17 AM
I rekon I ask too many questions and I don't read things carefully.

How about a deadline of the end of November? 6 Months should be enough and it still is in 2007 :D.

Some people might like to use locos from freeware websites in their sessions. Although I do agree that DLS stuff should be used.

Is the competition on now?

CoolMatty

BidMod
May 16th, 2007, 10:45 AM
I think it is wise to start building now, and I'll officially announce a competition if Alan can confirm that Auran will give away the FCT - I don't want people working towards an prize given by someone else, as I'd feel guilty if for some reason Auran weren't able to give it.

Just one thing to agree between ourselves though - how are we voting and how big can the layouts be?

My opinions - I like the poll idea, and I also would like to see 15 board layouts, however I acknowledge that some other users would like to see smaller projects. The only thing I would mention is that on a shunting layout the user would find it a challenge to create an AI session that correctly functions.

Strings has also pointed out that how could a prize be shared between team members? I think it is simplist if the team idea is dropped. Every trainzer for themself.

BidMod (who has also already started).

CoolMatty
May 16th, 2007, 11:48 AM
How about a maximum board size? Maybe 15? or 20? Also a place where all the layout names are posted so Trainzers can check them out? This could have a description and links to save searching.

If the poll idea fails then what I said before could happen. It would have to be decided before the deadline so there is no-one who enters and ends up a judge.

Hmmm...

CoolMatty (waiting for DL helper to go faster)

tommylommykins
May 16th, 2007, 12:13 PM
I have a couple of things to say:

1: I plan to enter

2: I would push for an end of June deadline: That's more than enough time to produce a good layout, and I think if we push the past kuju's release date, there'll be nobody left to join in.

3: I would say an absolute NO to four boards. For one thing that doesn't even cover the main station and associated yard of the route I plan to enter. it also does not tailor to a prototypical route 4 boards would barely cover two signal blocks, let alone proide enough space for a route. There is a big difference in the design of proto or semi-proto and 'model train' layouts. 15 boards, as originally specified, would hardly be enough for many a branchline (I would reccomend a limit of 45 for that), but would be a bit excessive for a 'model train' layout due to all the looping and doubling back that occurs in that style of route. My suggestion is an unlimited board size. The desire to keep quality high ought to prevent people from going OTT.


4: The 'poly' sugegstion, like the 'route length one' is probably to controlling IMO. I think it ought to be up to the route buildier to decide that's good and what isn't.

5: My suggestion about assets: I think it's easiest to allow any assets (since so much good stuff is not on it), but I think responsibility for finding non-dls assets should rest on the route builder. if the route builder is too lazy to point people to non-DLS stuff and make it easy for others to collect it, then it will be the route builder's fault for being lazy.


6: A stipulation that every individual asset must be downloadable without an FCT, since some people do not have them.

Lord-Claud-Hamilton
May 16th, 2007, 12:27 PM
and I think if we push the past kuju's release date, there'll be nobody left to join in.

That comment has gone right over my head...what is kuju's please?

CoolMatty
May 16th, 2007, 12:27 PM
2: I would push for an end of June deadline: That's more than enough time to produce a good layout, and I think if we push the past kuju's release date, there'll be nobody left to join in.

3: I would say an absolute NO to four boards. For one thing that doesn't even cover the main station and associated yard of the route I plan to enter. it also does not tailor to a prototypical route 4 boards would barely cover two signal blocks, let alone proide enough space for a route. There is a big difference in the design of proto or semi-proto and 'model train' layouts. 15 boards, as originally specified, would hardly be enough for many a branchline (I would reccomend a limit of 45 for that), but would be a bit excessive for a 'model train' layout due to all the looping and doubling back that occurs in that style of route. My suggestion is an unlimited board size. The desire to keep quality high ought to prevent people from going OTT.

5: My suggestion about assets: I think it's easiest to allow any assets (since so much good stuff is not on it), but I think responsibility for finding non-dls assets should rest on the route builder. if the route builder is too lazy to point people to non-DLS stuff and make it easy for others to collect it, then it will be the route builder's fault for being lazy.


6: A stipulation that every individual asset must be downloadable without an FCT, since some people do not have them.

Well, end of June is a bit too early for some. Getting things off the DL can be slow. Then there is thinking about what you'll do.

Also, it is the size of the layout that is in the size of the users hands. Yes, a limit of maybe 45 boards is ok but saying no to four baseboards puts small detailed layouts out.

I agree to your assets suggestion. Produce links to websites in the descriptions. Any layout that dosen't when needed should be disqualified.

Not to put you down but your suggestions do have a good angle. We'll have to see a final deadline when it is definietly decided.

CoolMatty

CoolMatty
May 16th, 2007, 12:29 PM
That comment has gone right over my head...what is kuju's please?

Yeah, what are you on about? Is kuju's a relation to the thread start date?

rockster
May 16th, 2007, 12:33 PM
@tommy, hi, i cant believe anybody could build a decent route in 1 1/2 months specially as you say 15 boaeds is too small, i could easy lay 100 boards with track and make it look decent, but then theres all the topography, scenery and texturing, then after that there is the testing and session creation unless you already have a route available for upload i dont think it would be possible to give something worth entering to a competition.

i dont believe its right to rush a route onto the DLS, creators should be happy its A1 themselves before uploading to the community. but then 3 yr and ive not uploaded a route yet, maybe i should let up here :D

cheers

Gav

rockster
May 16th, 2007, 12:36 PM
That comment has gone right over my head...what is kuju's please?

its a new train sim on its way, does look good in the adverts but if it is we'll have to wait and see.

cheers

Gav

CoolMatty
May 16th, 2007, 12:39 PM
its a new train sim on its way, does look good in the adverts but if it is we'll have to wait and see.

cheers

Gav

Which adverts? Is there a link to one?

Not to go off topic. A decent route can't be created in 1 1/2 months as you say. Nice routes can take from 3 months to 3 years! That's why they shouldn't be too big or it might not be on the DL in time.

Don't rush into uploading your first route!

CoolMatty

rockster
May 16th, 2007, 12:46 PM
Which adverts? Is there a link to one?

Not to go off topic. A decent route can't be created in 1 1/2 months as you say. Nice routes can take from 3 months to 3 years! That's why they shouldn't be too big or it might not be on the DL in time.

Don't rush into uploading your first route!

CoolMatty

www.railsimulator.com

CoolMatty
May 16th, 2007, 01:02 PM
www.railsimulator.com (http://www.railsimulator.com)

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

BidMod
May 16th, 2007, 02:19 PM
2: I would push for an end of June deadline: That's more than enough time to produce a good layout, and I think if we push the past kuju's release date, there'll be nobody left to join in.
Just to remind you that for many of us it is in fact the exam season, so we'd be at a disadvantage because exams have the clear priority. We'd need more time, hence why I suggested August. Could we have routes built by the start? That sounds quite sensible.


3: I would say an absolute NO to four boards. For one thing that doesn't even cover the main station and associated yard of the route I plan to enter. it also does not tailor to a prototypical route 4 boards would barely cover two signal blocks, let alone proide enough space for a route. There is a big difference in the design of proto or semi-proto and 'model train' layouts. 15 boards, as originally specified, would hardly be enough for many a branchline (I would reccomend a limit of 45 for that), but would be a bit excessive for a 'model train' layout due to all the looping and doubling back that occurs in that style of route. My suggestion is an unlimited board size. The desire to keep quality high ought to prevent people from going OTT.
Personally, I'd like to see a limit to standardise layouts a little. Besides, you could represent a branchline in very few boards (I think you can just get away with less than 15, assuming the layout is only 1 board wide). My station only coveres one and a half boards (including throat, but no yards), so you must have a monster in mind.


4: The 'poly' sugegstion, like the 'route length one' is probably to controlling IMO. I think it ought to be up to the route buildier to decide that's good and what isn't.

5: My suggestion about assets: I think it's easiest to allow any assets (since so much good stuff is not on it), but I think responsibility for finding non-dls assets should rest on the route builder. if the route builder is too lazy to point people to non-DLS stuff and make it easy for others to collect it, then it will be the route builder's fault for being lazy.
I guess actually if the route builder didn't mark where assets came from, the users would be sensible enough not to vote for them.


6: A stipulation that every individual asset must be downloadable without an FCT, since some people do not have them.
I forget that there is "hidden" stuff - I've so far never used an FCT. Good point, well noted.

Rockster has also hit another nail on the head by pointing out that the trackwork can be completed very quickly, but everything else is slower and more of an art (signalling is crucial, and can break a route as easily as make it).

Semi-finally, any board restriction is a limit not a target - some people haven't quite got this idea yet. It's the same as things like speed limits, weight limits, height limits etc. This means you could enter a four board route if desired. I mentioned elsewhere though that shunting layouts may struggle to spawn an AI session, but I think in this case you could create a session that uses HTML pages to give instructions. This seems a good compromise.

Finally, can we keep Kuju to another thread please? It looks a spectacular simulator, but it isn't what I want to talk about here. Thanks.

A few more posts and then I'll post some revised rules, to see what you think of the fruits of our discussion.
BidMod.

CoolMatty
May 18th, 2007, 12:39 AM
Yes you could have routes built by August but then there is the session to be worked on. This can take a while so maybe a compromise of end of September? I still prefer end of November as I have exams also. We'll see.

CoolMatty