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JCitron
June 12th, 2013, 11:02 AM
The current musings over TS12 SP1 HF3 seem oh so very familiar. If any of you have been with the product and community long enough, you'll notice that the complaints and actions really haven't changed much over the years. There are the adopters and then there are the Kvetches. The Kvetches kvetch over the "newness" and how the features weren't in the package. They go on to say how complicated things are with the new changes are, and how this complicates the content creation process. Granted, and yes I have to say, that the transition between Trainz UTC and TRS2004 was a bit easier as that didn't introduce the error checking found in TRS2006 and up which I won't go into details here.

Now having said this, thinking about this let's look back about a decade now to TRS2004.

TRS2004 came out and people complained that the passenger interactive stations weren't interactive! Cars did the escalator move up hills and floated 6 feet in the air. There's was nothing like seeing a floating Chevy pick-up truck at a rail crossing! The passenger interaction came later with SP1 because Auran had to meet a publication deadline promised to their distributors. They shipped without that published feature with a promise of an immediate patch afterwards. SP1 went in and then there were bugs. Content was broken and things crashed. Oh there were bugs, alright! People really complained loudly, and rightly so, in the forums which brought out SP2 which introduced more bugs. The bugs were so bad that the program crashed very badly right to the desktop for some people. The community complained. We worked together to resolve the issues while the Kvetches kvetched louder how TRS2004 was the worst product ever. Oh they were going to abandon Trainz and never look at it again... Rant, rave, complain, kvetch. This went on for a few weeks. SP3 followed to fix bugs while introducing more. With this patch there was some of the worst stuttering. The dreaded buffering bar would appear on the screen while in Surveyor and worse with it most of the time in Driver, making the experience awful. The disks were constantly thrashing even on the best systems and content was popping up instead of appearing fluidly. SP4 came out and the product remained at that level. Everyone loved and still loves TRS2004 SP4. Oh that was the best version ever they say while they forget the trials and tribulations to get to that point.

So nothing has changed even a decade later. There are always the early adopters. The ones that help push the product farther up the track and help work out the bugs and then there are the Kvetches. That's group of people who find something to complain and grump about and nay say everything including some minor quirks that need fixing still. Then everyone will forget when TS1xxxxx comes out sometime in the future. Oh, TS12 SP1 HF3 was the best product ever! This new one is...

John

boc61
June 12th, 2013, 11:10 AM
Very true. Then there was the spectre of KUJU on the horizon and the fanboy wars broke out in earnest. Then they went global when TRS 2006 came out, further splintering the community. Then we had The Great Forum Crash with it's associated conspiracy theories. Fun times, eh?

BTW, props to you for using Kvetch. On of my favorite colloquialisms.

nicky9499
June 12th, 2013, 11:13 AM
I got started with Trainz with a demo of TRS04. And I even remember how I found it: search engine result for "athearn trainz". I made a tiny single-board layout because I didn't know how to add more baseboards, thinking it was a demo limitation! It had valleys and grass and rivers and lots of bridges, oh it was great fun. Couple months later I bought from JustTrains a boxed set of TRS2006 shipped from the UK, because back then there was no such thing as digital download. The airfreight cost more than the software itself! Old times.

:hehe:

JCitron
June 12th, 2013, 11:14 AM
I forgot about the Kuju thing and MSTS2 coming out which it didn't. The GRC really splintered things more. We've never quite recovered from that. Kvetch is something I grew up with. My dad used to speak Yiddish in his house when he grew up and we've picked up many of the little colloquialisms from the language and culture. :)

John

RRSignal
June 12th, 2013, 11:18 AM
The difference now is the new DRM N3V introduced and, most likely, an entirely new business model: Subscription software, which the entire software industry is trending towards. Not mention that N3V, if past conversations with N3V and the rest of the industry are any indication, will almost certainly have the ability to deactivate the software you paid for, not to mention, effectively render any creations you make unusable. Trainz users should ask themselves, with these trends in mind, is it really worth supporting the 12-year-old Trainz platform anymore?

boc61
June 12th, 2013, 11:32 AM
I forgot about the Kuju thing and MSTS2 coming out which it didn't. The GRC really splintered things more. We've never quite recovered from that. Kvetch is something I grew up with. My dad used to speak Yiddish in his house when he grew up and we've picked up many of the little colloquialisms from the language and culture. :)

John

Growing up in a multi ethnic area, my vocabulary is nicely enhanced by a plethora of foreign phrases, from Yiddish, Spanish, Italian, even a little Gaelic. As I traveled about I've managed to add a little Korean, Japanese, German and others to it.

RRSignal
June 12th, 2013, 11:40 AM
I forgot about the Kuju thing and MSTS2 coming out which it didn't. The GRC really splintered things more. We've never quite recovered from that. Kvetch is something I grew up with. My dad used to speak Yiddish in his house when he grew up and we've picked up many of the little colloquialisms from the language and culture. :)

John

Funny, I never picked up any Yiddish. My wife, who isn't temotely Jewish, probably knows more than I do.

nicky9499
June 12th, 2013, 11:51 AM
The difference now is the new DRM N3V introduced and, most likely, an entirely new business model: Subscription software, which the entire software industry is trending towards.
Actually, said DRM actually has a far smaller impact than you make it out to be. Auran has so far put out like.. a handful of DLC content. So now they've slapped DRM on those (aka, not lock your entire TRS installation EA/Ubi-style). Sure, they're making some money off these DLC and it's in their best interests to keep it legit. However, if you compare it to an enterprise such as JointedRail or even RRMods, I'm sure their sales figures would be more by at least an order of magnitude. And look, JR doesn't have DRM!

Do I have to fork out extra for features intentionally left at launch? No. Do I have to renew my Trainz license each year? No. Do I have to pay for some Gold access to access multiplayer functionality? No. As far as subscription software goes, the only expense I see is the DLS. And that's extraordinary value no matter how you cut it.


Not mention that N3V, if past conversations with N3V and the rest of the industry are any indication, will almost certainly have the ability to deactivate the software you paid for, not to mention, effectively render any creations you make unusable.

Please provide solid evidence of such intention on N3V's part. These are big accusations and possible seriously implications to Trainz should they be true.


is it really worth supporting the 12-year-old Trainz platform anymore?

Yes.

Although I have quite abit of respect for you and the work you do, alot of your statements made against Auran only serve up the logical but puzzling conclusion that you're trying to create dissent within the Trainz community and/or driving users away.

norfolksouthern37
June 12th, 2013, 12:07 PM
yes i have noticed this. i have noticed it all over the net. i think the internet just gives people the impression they have the right to complain and make a post or blog about it. not that they dont, but certainly nobody is obligated to listen to their babbling on.

it has happened here with every version of trainz i can remember. seems to happen with every release of windows too. :hehe: it is always "im never going to [new version of software] the old one is great and ill stick with it forever!" or "[it only works if it works how i want it to]" they seem to like the 'following' they get, or i guess just knowing that others have the same unreasonable views that they do. i guess it makes them feel better about themselves in such a lonely world.

i enjoy the emails we get at JR from these types "you would make SOOOO much money if you made what i want to have"

really...

RRSignal
June 12th, 2013, 12:21 PM
Actually, said DRM actually has a far smaller impact than you make it out to be. Auran has so far put out like.. a handful of DLC content. So now they've slapped DRM on those (aka, not lock your entire TRS installation EA/Ubi-style). Sure, they're making some money off these DLC and it's in their best interests to keep it legit. However, if you compare it to an enterprise such as JointedRail or even RRMods, I'm sure their sales figures would be more by at least an order of magnitude. And look, JR doesn't have DRM!

They have, but there are two problems: First, when the DLC was originally sold, this was not part of the contract. That aside, if you do own any DLC (and a lot if not most of us do) then even owning one piece of content requires an internet connection and all the products, services and problems that come with it.

That JR is able to do what they do without DRM should be a good indicator to N3V that DRM is not needed to protect the product. Obviously, though, the longer-term goal is to move towards a subscription-based service.


Do I have to fork out extra for features intentionally left at launch? No. Do I have to renew my Trainz license each year? Do I have to pay for some Gold access to access multiplayer functionality? No. As far as subscription software goes, the only expense I see is the DLS. And that's extraordinary value no matter how you cut it

You didn't GET all the features advertised at launch, hence the need for patches. That's why bugfixes are called FIXES. Take a look at the SP1 list alone (http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?100435-Trainz-12-Service-Pack-1) There are 7 "improvements"* versus nearly 60 bugfixes.


Please provide solid evidence of such intention on N3V's part. These are big accusations and possible seriously implications to Trainz should they be true.

Hmm, it's called industry trends. Something people use to look for...oh, I guess, industry trends.

Ever hear of Adobe? They make a few popular products - Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, etc. They recently switched to a subscription-only model (http://www.extremetech.com/computing/155285-bring-out-the-gimp-adobe-photoshop-and-creative-suite-to-become-subscription-only).

There's another small company, called Microsoft - that is rapidly moving towards a subscription model for their line off office-productivity software. One of their key the products is called Office 365 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Office_365), which may (depending on how things work out) obsolete local-based versions of Office (which Microsoft can also refuse to activate, much as a best-case scenario with N3V's DRM.)

You also might want to Google SaaS (Software-as-a-Service), which has been a long-term trend in the industry.

EA and Ubisoft have also moved to what is effectively similar to a subscription service (especially in terms of software usability/accessibility) for SimCity and Silent Hunter, respectively, with "always-on" DRM. However, DRM doesn't necessarily need to be "always-on" in order for a subscription service to work, nor does said business model have to necessarily be subscription-only.

On another note, Apple is another company that, while not technically jumping on the SaaS/subscription bandwagon (because they are not primarily a software company,) has long used DRM to lock its customers to their platform.


I have quite abit of respect for you and the work you do, but alot of your statements made against Auran only serve up the logically puzzling conclusion that you're trying to create dissent within the Trainz community and/or driving users away.

It's puzzling only if you don't understand the issue at all. N3V themselves have admitted the DRM (albeit couched in vague terms about 'what the future may bring'). One of their own programmers brought up the comparison to Apple. And, in case you missed it, another user brought up the subscription plan in another thread...oddly enough, the very same N3V representative that was very quick to deny, confirm or explain every little letter of detail failed to deny that N3V would go a subscription route. Of course, this is the same company that wasn't initially upfront about the DRM in the first place, not to mention uses VERY shady advertising ethics, so it's up to each user to make a judgment call as to the ethics of this company as a whole.

amigacooke
June 12th, 2013, 12:30 PM
They have, but there are two problems: First, when the DLC was originally sold, this was not part of the contract. That aside, if you do own any DLC (and a lot if not most of us do) then even owning one piece of content requires an internet connection and all the products, services and problems that come with it. I've been to check and the content I bought under the old system is still available in the same format that I bought it in. If I chose to I could run it in just the same manner as when I bought it.

RRSignal
June 12th, 2013, 12:32 PM
I've been to check and the content I bought under the old system is still available in the same format that I bought it in. If I chose to I could run it in just the same manner as when I bought it.

Unfortunately, I can't. Not with the features that were originally advertised.

amigacooke
June 12th, 2013, 12:35 PM
Unfortunately, I can't. Not with the features that were originally advertised.
Which features are you missing then?

RRSignal
June 12th, 2013, 12:40 PM
Which features are you missing then?

A functioning Merge function and splines that don't glitch. Those are the worst offenders. I'm trying to merge my SEPTA and my Northeast Corridor mega-routes I'm working on, so not having that functionality is a serious issue.

nicky9499
June 12th, 2013, 01:16 PM
They have, but there are two problems: First, when the DLC was originally sold, this was not part of the contract. That aside, if you do own any DLC (and a lot if not most of us do) then even owning one piece of content requires an internet connection and all the products, services and problems that come with it.

That JR is able to do what they do without DRM should be a good indicator to N3V that DRM is not needed to protect the product. Obviously, though, the longer-term goal is to move towards a subscription-based service.


No, I don't believe most of us own N3V's DLC. If one does not agree with the DRM in aforementioned DLC, then simply don't buy it. I've always loved The Sims and SimCity, but EA and their recent SimCity title represents the pinnacle of DRM-a$$holism. So I didn't buy it. The new Xbox will require a persistant internet connection. Similarly, I will not be buying that. Your Trainz will continue functioning just fine without DLC, I'm sure.



You didn't GET all the features advertised at launch, hence the need for patches. That's why bugfixes are called FIXES. Take a look at the SP1 list alone (http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?100435-Trainz-12-Service-Pack-1) There are 7 "improvements"* versus nearly 60 bugfixes.


Were you missing a Surveyor module when you purchased the game? Did you find upon purchase that there were no American content, which could be bought separately in a "US Community Asset Pack"? I'm sitting here without SP1 and am getting along just fine. Apparently so are many others. And the 7 improvements you mention; they are improvements. Are they new features never seen before? New feature previously advertised in TS12 but not present heretofore? Like any other developer, Auran is working to improve their software and you are complaining about it why?



Hmm, it's called industry trends. Something people use to look for...oh, I guess, industry trends.
Ever hear of Adobe? They make a few popular products - Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, etc. They recently switched to a subscription-only model (http://www.extremetech.com/computing/155285-bring-out-the-gimp-adobe-photoshop-and-creative-suite-to-become-subscription-only).
There's another small company, called Microsoft - that is rapidly moving towards a subscription model for their line off office-productivity software. One of their key the products is called Office 365 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Office_365), which may (depending on how things work out) obsolete local-based versions of Office (which Microsoft can also refuse to activate, much as a best-case scenario with N3V's DRM.)



Show us a similar declaration from Auran that they're going to do that same.



It's puzzling only if you don't understand the issue at all. N3V themselves have admitted the DRM (albeit couched in vague terms about 'what the future may bring'). One of their own programmers brought up the comparison to Apple. And, in case you missed it, another user brought up the subscription plan in another thread...oddly enough, the very same N3V representative that was very quick to deny, confirm or explain every little letter of detail failed to deny that N3V would go a subscription route. Of course, this is the same company that wasn't initially upfront about the DRM in the first place, not to mention uses VERY shady advertising ethics, so it's up to each user to make a judgment call as to the ethics of this company as a whole.

He didn't deny the subscription thing so it automatically means the next Trainz will stop shipping boxed copies? That's like saying I didn't deny being a psychopath and therefore I must have killed dozens of people. :o

RRSignal
June 12th, 2013, 01:24 PM
No, I don't believe most of us own N3V's DLC. If one does not agree with the DRM in aforementioned DLC, then simply don't buy it. I've always loved The Sims and SimCity, but EA and their recent SimCity title represents the pinnacle of DRM-a$$holism. So I didn't buy it. The new Xbox will require a persistant internet connection. Similarly, I will not be buying that. Your Trainz will continue functioning just fine without DLC, I'm sure.

The problem is, when I bought the DLC - the first piece of which was purchased over two years ago - I wasn't required to have an internet connection. Nor was I required to have one the last time I purchased DLC back in September 2012. However, now N3V requires this. That wasn't part of the ads nor the EULA I agreed to. Liike you, I would simply have not bought any of it were it a requirement as I find it objectionable. I wasn't given that option.


Were you missing a Surveyor module when you purchased the game? Did you find upon purchase that there were no American content, which could be bought separately in a "US Community Asset Pack"? I'm sitting here without SP1 and am getting along just fine. Apparently so are many others. And the 7 improvements you mention; they are improvements. Are they new features never seen before? New feature previously advertised in TS12 but not present heretofore? Like any other developer, Auran is working to improve their software and you are complaining about it why?

I don't CARE ABOUT THE SO-CALLED IMPROVEMENTS. I do have a right to WHAT I PAID FOR! What's so difficult about this concept to grasp?


Show us a similar declaration from Auran that they're going to do that same.

Unfortunately, I don't have the power to jump forwards and backwards in time. Most likely, if I did, I'd own N3V. So, I can make assessments based on statements (or lack thereof) such as post #49 by Windwalkr (http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?102418-TRS2010-vs-TRS2012/page4):


Have I? I don't really remember saying that, though I don't specifically disagree. Reasonably priced subscription models tend to work well for both users and developers. It's an encouragement for the developer to keep users engaged, it typically means that everybody uses the same version of the game, and it means that the user can control how much they spend- if the game has less value to them than what they're spending, then they can stop playing. On the developer's side, it evens out cashflow and helps determine how much money is reasonable to commit at any given time. It encourages frequent releases to the customers, rather than occasional monolithic releases.

The main downside is that if the entire game is covered by a monthly subscription, someone who stops playing can't simply pick it up for a single day "for old times sake"- they need to commit to playing "seriously." Obviously you could consider a model where this isn't true, but the subscriptions that I've seen in the past have always been a per-month thing.

I must say that this makes more sense for games where community involvement is paramount. It makes less sense for play-through-once-then-put-away games. Trainz is possibly somewhere in between for most people.


He didn't deny the subscription thing so it automatically means the next Trainz will stop shipping boxed copies? That's like saying I didn't deny being a psychopath and therefore I must have killed dozens of people. :o

What do BOXED COPIES have to do with the price of tea in China? Plenty of heavily DRMed software is sold boxed...like Railworks, for one.




But, yeah, a reasonably intelligent person would look at the trend of the software industry as a whole, look at N3V's own statements, and put the two together.

Not all of us have to wait until after the horse is gone to close the barn door.

nicky9499
June 12th, 2013, 02:04 PM
The problem is, when I bought the DLC - the first piece of which was purchased over two years ago - I wasn't required to have an internet connection. Nor was I required to have one the last time I purchased DLC back in September 2012. However, now N3V requires this. That wasn't part of the ads nor the EULA I agreed to. Liike you, I would simply have not bought any of it were it a requirement as I find it objectionable. I wasn't given that option.


Ok then, you've already bought said DLC and now you're unhappy. Were this a physical product you'd have the right to request a refund. However since this is software and general consensus is "no refunds", vote with your wallet, stop supporting these objectionable requirements and don't purchase future N3V DLC.



I don't CARE ABOUT THE SO-CALLED IMPROVEMENTS. I do have a right to WHAT I PAID FOR! What's so difficult about this concept to grasp?


You got what you paid for, now they're making it better. What's the issue? I paid for Windows 7, now your "small company" Microsoft has released an SP1 to improve on it. Should Win7 users now also go bitching to them about how they don't care for their so-called improvements?



Unfortunately, I don't have the power to jump forwards and backwards in time. Most likely, if I did, I'd own N3V. So, I can make assessments based on statements (or lack thereof) such as post #49 by Windwalkr (http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?102418-TRS2010-vs-TRS2012/page4):


Ok, with this post there is credible reason to believe that Chris, not N3V, would prefer Trainz go the subscription route. No I do not agree with him one bit, but again Chris doesn't represent the whole of N3V or even where the brew crew might be heading towards. Until the day it comes to light that the next iteration of Trainz would be subscription-based, any such claims are just fear-mongering. And even it that happens, you can simply choose not to support such development. Even Chris has said; "just don't patch".



What do BOXED COPIES have to do with the price of tea in China? Plenty of heavily DRMed software is sold boxed...like Railworks, for one.
But, yeah, a reasonably intelligent person would look at the trend of the software industry as a whole, look at N3V's own statements, and put the two together.
Not all of us have to wait until after the horse is gone to close the barn door.

There's a misunderstanding here. By boxed I mean regular, good old fashioned pop-disc-in-and-play-offline software. DRM has always been closely correlated to digital distribution such as Steam, uPlay and Origin. Even the Railworks you mention is no longer available in boxed copy. I would also ignore said trend because Trainz is not developed by a mega evil game studio corporation. Despite the name change it's still less than a handful of developers who share the same interests as the rest of the Trainz community.

You may close the barn door now and leave if you so wish, but please stop spreading fear and false alarm about the future of the Trainz franchise.

Cheerio,
Nicholas

boc61
June 12th, 2013, 03:15 PM
The difference now is the new DRM N3V introduced and, most likely, an entirely new business model: Subscription software, which the entire software industry is trending towards. Not mention that N3V, if past conversations with N3V and the rest of the industry are any indication, will almost certainly have the ability to deactivate the software you paid for, not to mention, effectively render any creations you make unusable. Trainz users should ask themselves, with these trends in mind, is it really worth supporting the 12-year-old Trainz platform anymore?

For me, yes.

amigacooke
June 12th, 2013, 04:10 PM
A functioning Merge function and splines that don't glitch. Those are the worst offenders. I'm trying to merge my SEPTA and my Northeast Corridor mega-routes I'm working on, so not having that functionality is a serious issue.
I can see that your particular set of circumstances are very frustrating. However, it's stretching credulity to assume that your problem with TS12 and the DLC are common to everyone else.

RRSignal
June 12th, 2013, 04:25 PM
Ok then, you've already bought said DLC and now you're unhappy. Were this a physical product you'd have the right to request a refund. However since this is software and general consensus is "no refunds", vote with your wallet, stop supporting these objectionable requirements and don't purchase future N3V DLC.

Oh, I intend to, but there is still are multiple legal issues here i.e. truth-in-advertising as well as contractual agreements here.


You got what you paid for, now they're making it better. What's the issue? I paid for Windows 7, now your "small company" Microsoft has released an SP1 to improve on it. Should Win7 users now also go bitching to them about how they don't care for their so-called improvements?

I'd disagree that it's "better" and, regardless, the issue is not whatever value-added bonuses N3V added; I'm still entitled to what was advertised at the time of sale and what I agreed to purchase. The so-called "improvements" have no relevance whatsoever to the issues at hand.


Ok, with this post there is credible reason to believe that Chris, not N3V, would prefer Trainz go the subscription route. No I do not agree with him one bit, but again Chris doesn't represent the whole of N3V or even where the brew crew might be heading towards. Until the day it comes to light that the next iteration of Trainz would be subscription-based, any such claims are just fear-mongering. And even it that happens, you can simply choose not to support such development. Even Chris has said; "just don't patch".

There is no need to reach or make excuses here. Chris is a representative of the company, and pretty intimately involved with the product as well as the decisions influencing its direction. Moreover, Chris could have noted that the opinions expressed were his own and there has been ample time for other N3V representatives to correct his statement. And, let's say N3V does issue a correction: N3V wasn't upfront about the fact that they were including DRM (see the link to the SP1 patch), so why should we believe anything they say? DRM is, to say the least, a hot-button issue.


There's a misunderstanding here. By boxed I mean regular, good old fashioned pop-disc-in-and-play-offline software. DRM has always been closely correlated to digital distribution such as Steam, uPlay and Origin. Even the Railworks you mention is no longer available in boxed copy.

Um, no, big difference between digital distribution and DRM, and the history of DRM goes back before digital distribution was mainstream. Adobe and Microsoft have long-included DRM with physical copy. Windows XP (2001) and Office 2003 used a form of it in the form of product activation, for example. By contrast, all of the games Strategy First sells are digital downloads, but most don't have DRM at all.


I would also ignore said trend because Trainz is not developed by a mega evil game studio corporation. Despite the name change it's still less than a handful of developers who share the same interests as the rest of the Trainz community.

Ooooh, boy. I...I can't stop shaking my head long enough to respond to what's wrong with that statement...

...I'm not even sure where to start BEGINNING to point out everything wrong in that statement...

...except to say that SP1 looks to be a beta of a larger DRM scheme, much as the multiplayer beta for TS2010 was a test of a larger multiplayer scheme. Which is yet something the quick-to-deny folks at N3V never did last time it was asked.


You may close the barn door now and leave if you so wish, but please stop spreading fear and false alarm about the future of the Trainz franchise.

No, I think I'll spread accurate information, so I'll keep mentioning it, as well as pointing out the direction the industry is taking. You can continue to bury your head in the sand, if you wish, or keep reaching for well-beyond-far-fetched excuses. But, of course, when N3V institutes the next phase of DRM, or even moves to a subscription-based market model, those of us who heeded these warnings will be the ones laughing, all while keeping our money. That's a win-win! :)

Vern
June 12th, 2013, 04:30 PM
It might have been the friendly "brew crew" a few years back but that got flushed down the loo with the Fury debacle. Now it's just part of a larger (Chinese?) parent company and profits are the first priority.

H222
June 12th, 2013, 04:41 PM
Is there anywhere in the forums that I can get away from this trickle of filth regarding DRM? I do not care. If it happens, so be it, as mentioned, steam, uplay and origin use DRM and it seems to work. And as you said, adobe and blah use DRM, and since people use it, it makes it usable. Your "accurate information" is biased and heavily influenced by your opinion on the matter

amigacooke
June 12th, 2013, 04:43 PM
Is there anywhere in the forums that I can get away from this trickle of filth regarding DRM?
You can use the 'ignore' option.

RRSignal
June 12th, 2013, 04:44 PM
Funny thing about DRM (and, by extension, the whole subscription business model) is, if it's really just so great, if it's really so desirable, why aren't manufacturers (like N3V) upfront about it? Why didn't N3V mention the new DRM right in the changelog of SP1...or in the three hotfixes released since then?

boc61
June 12th, 2013, 04:48 PM
Is there anywhere in the forums that I can get away from this trickle of filth regarding DRM? I do not care. If it happens, so be it, as mentioned, steam, uplay and origin use DRM and it seems to work. And as you said, adobe and blah use DRM, and since people use it, it makes it usable. Your "accurate information" is biased and heavily influenced by your opinion on the matter

Meh, if it happens it happens, I'll worry about that crossing when I get to it. Even if it does get to be personally objectionable in the future, my pre SP1 installation worked well enough for me to use that for a long time. Or I'll just move on to something else. It's a game, a hobby, not a religion. Right now I'm enjoying Trainz, probably mote than back in the old days, that's all I care about.

RRSignal
June 12th, 2013, 04:48 PM
I can see that your particular set of circumstances are very frustrating. However, it's stretching credulity to assume that your problem with TS12 and the DLC are common to everyone else.

Never said "everyone". But, unless you have evidence to the contrary, it's safe to say that the majority of DLC and TS12 purchases occurred prior to the release of SP1 on April 10th of this year. Seeing as TS12 has been on the market over two years now. Therefore, a majority of TS12 users will fall into the same category as me. Of course, some won't care, some will. Probably the majority won't even know.

oknotsen
June 12th, 2013, 04:48 PM
people complainO look, they made a new version of Trainz (http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3us5gv/). ;)

H222
June 12th, 2013, 04:49 PM
N3V don't really announce anything until it's done or released. We never knew about Doppler until TS12 was released. We never knew about most of their DLC, as they don't specifically announce it. We never saw any versions until they were released for beta-testing. This is their "trend" as you so high-and-mightily put it

Jamie

PennCentral
June 12th, 2013, 04:57 PM
I remember chatting in IRC with the old crew that used to be around here. fond memories ;)

RRSignal
June 12th, 2013, 05:11 PM
Hmm, funny, I seem to recall Doppler mentioned around when TS12 was released - in the April 12th, 2011 newsletter, in fact. I guess you don't understand the difference between "before being released" versus "when it's released" versus "after it's released." The post discussing the patch for SP1 says nothing about the new DRM, nor to the posts regarding the three hotfixes since. In fact, details about the DRM only emerged in the last week or so.

Ernest2d6
June 13th, 2013, 12:51 AM
:hehe: I thought the DLS was the subscription. I can't see playing with Trainz without the DLS, so I buy a one year ticket. They should drop the life time sub.. JTOL

Vern
June 13th, 2013, 04:45 AM
The thing about DRM, is that peoples' reaction to it tends to be in proportion to the desire to use the software. I tolerate the Steam DRM in Railworks because it offers an excellent driving experience (show me a route in Trainz where you can drive a Class 395 with correct traction and braking physics on a TVM430 signalled route) and a tolerable route editor.

Trainz has an excellent route editor but graphically and operationally looks tatty and dated, ergo I would be much less inclined to tolerate DRM either for new routes or if any future version was bound by additional restrictions such as periodic online authentication.

Where software companies shoot themselves in the foot with DRM, is that they're only hurting the genuine users. I would like to wager the percentage of people who download a copy of Trainz or its add-ons from a pirate site are unlikely to be serious contenders for purchase anyway. We're not talking GTA or Mass Effect here... both highly sought after mainstream games which, incidentally, I would also consider DRM as a necessary evil to play them.

JCitron
June 13th, 2013, 02:23 PM
The idea behind DRM, as we're calling it, really isn't new. The corporate world has lived this way for decades with various applications. I'm not talking about the Adobe blob or Microsoft's stuff. I'm talking megabucks invested in database software and clients. Many software companies have gone this route, both big and small, because it is a revenue stream. With N3V, however, this isn't the case, and instead they appear to be, right now anyway, using it as a copyright protection method.

The DRM in Trainz is not as bad as SOME make it out to be. It could be worse like only allowing 5 installs, putting a hidden key in the system registry, and forcing the system to run a special application which is also hidden in the hard drive. Other features used to include dongles and special disks. Yes, I'm not sure if people remember the old floppy disks with special hidden codes on them? These were actually burned into the floppy and if the disk went bad you were hosed. Old 3ds Max not only had a dongle, but it also required a phone in authorization and download to install and run. Pro/Engineer requires registering the NIC MAC address with the software Parametrics. If the NIC fails and you replace it, you have to re-register your software all over again.

I remember that Chris (WindWalkr) mentioned in the other thread on DRM, that the developers are open for suggestions on how better to handle this. This is a new thing for them and us, and the fact that they're willing to work with the community to make things better is a good thing. I've never seen Microsoft, Adobe, or some of the other game companies do anything like that.

N3V may now be part of a Chinese software conglomerate, but the fact that they have money behind them to continue development is a good thing. Remember the purpose of a company to make money for its stake holders which include the owners and investors. The rest of us benefit from its wares if we choose to purchase them.

Remember the old days before Fury and about the time of the GFD. Things haven't changed much, but they have also changed in many ways. Like us the company its self lost a lot of good people in the reorganization. Things haven't been the same since.

John

dougtrain
June 13th, 2013, 03:37 PM
Ahhh.. Here I am, still here after all the updates since I found a discounted copy of Trainz in a clearance bin. SP I think it was and the glory of Paintshed. But pause for a moment guys and close your eyes as you recall the great download database crash and we all thought the world had come to an end. I still have a twitch in my left eye after that...

However, John I think you are right in what you say and we see the old pattern repeat itself again and again with each new update over the years. The shock when it was discovered that it was important to bring your brain with you and not just leave it snoozing on the pillow. If you wanted it to work you had to find a way to make it work and you made friends along the way who were battling with the same odds as you were. Okay, we all grumbled a bit but it was hard work and time consuming in an attempt at perfection. But Trainz is a driven thing, if you see what I mean? You get hooked and decide you will not be beaten. Giving in is easy. Does not alter the fact that my wife sees little or no point in it and there is something seriously wrong with me.

My thoughts...
Doug

VinnyBarb
June 13th, 2013, 04:35 PM
Snip....
Remember the old days before Fury and about the time of the GFD. Things haven't changed much, but they have also changed in many ways. Like us the company its self lost a lot of good people in the reorganization. Things haven't been the same since.

John

The BIG difference in the past was, Trainz was created, developed and operated by a bunch of Train enthusiasts and hobbyists, the Brew Crew, people who loved Trains. What we have now (as it so obvious seems) are numbers crunchers who are running Trainz with an eye on profit only, as it seems by the look of what is happening now and in the immediate past. You be the judge and see what is better, having a Train Simulation getting operated by people (as it seems) of having only a faint idea of what a genuine Train Simulation should be or rather, as it was in the past, in the golden olden days (before Fury), having it developed and operated by genuine Train lovers who knew what a Train Simulation should (and could) be.

To get back onto the main trust of this thread, to me it looks like of someone raising concerns here of the directions Trainz is heading and this poster stating his reservations but instead of us listening and thinking about this, he is getting lambasted for stating his views and concerns. It would be nice to look into the future, say, a couple of years ahead and see where Trainz will be in the grander scheme of things as the direction now taken by the makers of Trainz also has me thinking about what else might be coming soon along the posters concerns.

So should you too.

My opinion

VinnyBarb

boc61
June 13th, 2013, 04:57 PM
What is/was Fury? I keep seeing it mentioned.

boc61
June 13th, 2013, 05:02 PM
The BIG difference in the past was, Trainz was created, developed and operated by a bunch of Train enthusiasts and hobbyists, the Brew Crew, people who loved Trains. What we have now (as it so obvious seems) are numbers crunchers who are running Trainz with an eye on profit only, as it seems by the look of what is happening now and in the immediate past. You be the judge and see what is better, having a Train Simulation getting operated by people (as it seems) of having only a faint idea of what a genuine Train Simulation should be or rather, as it was in the past, in the golden olden days (before Fury), having it developed and operated by genuine Train lovers who knew what a Train Simulation should (and could) be.

To get back onto the main trust of this thread, to me it looks like of someone raising concerns here of the directions Trainz is heading and this poster stating his reservations but instead of us listening and thinking about this, he is getting lambasted for stating his views and concerns. It would be nice to look into the future, say, a couple of years ahead and see where Trainz will be in the grander scheme of things as the direction now taken by the makers of Trainz also has me thinking about what else might be coming soon along the posters concerns.

So should you too.

My opinion

VinnyBarb

The concerns posted are something to consider, yes but care has to be taken in how they are expressed. It's one thing to inform people, generate a discussion and get people to think for themselves, but in some ways it seems like it is becoming an agenda, with the purpose not of informing but persuading people to think the same way, and take similar actions wit an attitude of "I'm right and the rest of you are wrong. I know more than you do."

My opinion.

amigacooke
June 13th, 2013, 05:08 PM
What we have now (as it so obvious seems) are numbers crunchers who are running Trainz with an eye on profit only, as it seems by the look of what is happening now and in the immediate past. You be the judge and see what is better, having a Train Simulation getting operated by people (as it seems) of having only a faint idea of what a genuine Train Simulation should be or rather, as it was in the past, in the golden olden days (before Fury), having it developed and operated by genuine Train lovers who knew what a Train Simulation should (and could) be. Though maybe the only reason we still have Trainz in development is because of the number crunchers. People who ignore the bottom line tend to go out of business.

boc61
June 13th, 2013, 05:14 PM
Though maybe the only reason we still have Trainz in development is because of the number crunchers. People who ignore the bottom line tend to go out of business.

We hope there is a balance between the enthusiast creative types and the bottom liners. They are both needed for Trainz to continue.

RRSignal
June 13th, 2013, 05:20 PM
The DRM in Trainz is not as bad as SOME make it out to be. It could be worse like only allowing 5 installs, putting a hidden key in the system registry, and forcing the system to run a special application which is also hidden in the hard drive

Actually, most if not all modern DRM is as bad as it's made out to be. The difference between "always-on", "sometimes-on" and "one-time activations" is simply a matter of how often the software checks in. At the end of the day, the software provider can deny authorization for any reason: They don't want to support the product or version; you've been banned; technical and connectivity issues; company out-of-business, and so forth.

Always-on sounds like the worst, because it offers the most immediate negative results. Always on kicks in at least every time you start the game, if not requiring continuous authentication while using the software. So, if/when BigGameCompany, Inc. decides to stop authenticating for whatever reason, you're stuck. But, at least you'll know right away.

Sometimes-on isn't any better. It handicaps the software just the same way; it's just a question of when the authentication check-in takes place. BigGameCompany, Inc. might set their software to check-in once a day rather than be always-on. Or maybe once a week. Or, at the extreme, maybe once a month. The end result is the same: Your software will be disabled if BigGameCompany decides not to authenticate your software. In fact, sometimes-on DRM is better for software-makers because it doesn't require anywhere near the amount of infrastructure, bandwidth, server capacity as alway-on, so it's not much a surprise N3V went this route; even multi-billion-dollar conglomerates like EA found out how difficult always-on is to implement when SimCity was released a few months back.

And, of course, one-time activation is more of the same. Again, it's only a matter of timing. Install Railworks, FSX or whatever and activate it. You're fine as long as your hard drive doesn't take a dump, the software doesn't get corrupted, or your computer doesn't crash. But, once that does happen, if and when BigGameCompany or whoever pulls support for your product or goes out of business, you're left with a worthless purchase, just the same as if your software used sometimes-on or always-on activation.

Again, the problem with all these methods is, they hurt the average user. Not everybody is in a position to maintain an internet connection 24/7 (or at least every time they run the game.) Internet connections are spotty and slow in many places, both inside of and outside the U.S. Not to mention, that's an extra expense for most people. On top of that, look at the demographic of Trainzers. Now, I'd like to see some official survey data, but having spent four years on these forums, I can reasonably say a very disproportionate number, if not most, of the users are generally either very young or very old - the exact opposite of the demographic of mainstream video games. Unlike the prized 18-24 set, or even the 18-49 demographic, most really young or older people don't have a lot of discretionary income.

VinnyBarb
June 13th, 2013, 06:47 PM
What is/was Fury? I keep seeing it mentioned.

Fury:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2007/12/13/auran-goes-into-voluntary-administration-entire-staff-let-go/

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/struggling-mmo-fury-closes-down

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fury_(video_game)

http://au.gamespot.com/fury/

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/252

http://massively.joystiq.com/2008/08/05/fury-mmo-shuts-down/

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Fury-MMO-Closes-Forever-91488.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N3V_Games

Cheers

VinnyBarb

JCitron
June 13th, 2013, 07:32 PM
Again, the problem with all these methods is, they hurt the average user.

I didn't say it's perfect, but it's better than others I've used including the corporate-level ones and at least the developers are looking into working with us.

Unfortunately, because of a few people, the average user has to suffer. This has always been the case in a lot of things. Just because a few people decide that trains are a nice target, the rest of us innocent rail fans can no longer stand rail side and take pictures without being harassed by the public or officials. It was the same in school too. Some moron would act up and the whole class would end up losing out on a special deal.

John

RRSignal
June 13th, 2013, 07:55 PM
I didn't say it's perfect, but it's better than others I've used including the corporate-level ones and at least the developers are looking into working with us.

Unfortunately, because of a few people, the average user has to suffer. This has always been the case in a lot of things. Just because a few people decide that trains are a nice target, the rest of us innocent rail fans can no longer stand rail side and take pictures without being harassed by the public or officials. It was the same in school too. Some moron would act up and the whole class would end up losing out on a special deal.

John

Lol, I'm familiar with the stuff the mainframe and mini vendors used. Ugh! I actually had a Burrough's B90 and a TI-990 up until a few years ago that employed similar mechanisms. I probably could have started my own WORKING computer museum! Seriously, though, the results were the same, unfortunately: They couldn't legally be made to work since they were out of support. And we're not talking $50 games either, but 5- or 6-figure corporate mini systems.

However, all this really has little to do with piracy. Perhaps, that was the original reason for development of these schemes (and I don't buy that for a second, partly for the aforementioned reasons, but that's not worth debating). Software and content providers have since found out that DRM is far more useful as a means to control who can use their content, how, under what terms, for how long, and, ultimately, that they can get far more money - and on a continuous basis, no less - than they can from a one-time sale. Adobe being a case-in-point.

nicky9499
June 14th, 2013, 01:21 AM
Software and content providers have since found out that DRM is far more useful as a means to control who can use their content, how, under what terms, for how long, and, ultimately, that they can get far more money - and on a continuous basis, no less - than they can from a one-time sale. Adobe being a case-in-point.

Economically speaking, whoever came up with such a scheme was a cunning genius. However, until that day comes where Trainz heads in that direction, I will continue with this hobby one day at a time - not closing the barn door yet, so to speak. And when that happens, like you I will also refuse to be a part of it.

amigacooke
June 14th, 2013, 02:29 AM
Adobe do provide a subscription model, but I still seem to be using Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign etc. on the buy it and use it model as I have done for the past decade.

It seems to me that while any community creator is entitled to put whatever licence conditions on their output that they like, that same atttitude isn't applied to N3V. I won't be happy if N3V choose to go completely DRM, but nor will I be 'cutting off my nose to spite my face' either.

shaneturner12
June 14th, 2013, 02:44 AM
At least N3V are open for discussion regarding their new system - they could have chosen to implement it and reject any discussion.

I can tell you that occasionally-on is not half as bad as those who require always-on, like SimCity 5 or to a certain extent the Steam gaming service (although with Steam it is possible to turn on Offline mode, but even then it still has to be online periodically).

No system is perfect as far as I'm concerned, but like most things it's a matter of compromise. Trainz (since TS2009 SP4 at least if not as far back as TRS2006) has made use of the internet for certain features, and in later versions, things like validating that you are not using a pirate copy of Trainz, or things as simple as downloading updated asset listings.

One thing I don't understand though is why the DRM conversation now uses two threads, when most of it cropped up in the 'Appalled and Dismayed' thread.

Just my 2 cents on this. You are welcome to disagree with me, but please do not attack me over this post as I'm simply adding my thoughts to the matter.

Shane

boleyd
June 14th, 2013, 08:16 AM
I wonder what portion of the Community are as upset as the small group that hijacked this thread to to complain about N3V's commercial practices. Even some "homemade lawyers" have offered opinions. The Original Poster offers a reasonable well constructed perspective and this same small group jumps in with their STANDARD complaints.

Frankly "Charlotte I do not give a damn". The majority of the community probably have Internet on all the time.

Now, we will be bombarded by more of what the Original Poster described so well. They just can't help themselves.

RRSignal
June 14th, 2013, 09:26 AM
Adobe do provide a subscription model, but I still seem to be using Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign etc. on the buy it and use it model as I have done for the past decade.

Gee, nobody said Adobe shut down their business yet, did they? I looked, but can't find anyone saying that, myself included.

But my brother is no longer able to use his older copy of Photoshop, since Adobe is no longer accepting activations for that particular version, so yeah, Adobe's DRM is working.


It seems to me that while any community creator is entitled to put whatever licence conditions on their output that they like, that same atttitude isn't applied to N3V. I won't be happy if N3V choose to go completely DRM, but nor will I be 'cutting off my nose to spite my face' either.


They're entitled to add DRM provided they don't change the rules under which the product(s) were advertised and sold, which is why it has come up that this would have been better implemented in the next version of Trainz as opposed to a patch. So, you're perfectly okay with a company telling you one thing in it's ads and then giving you something else, then?

Well, then, I have a brand new car to sell you.

shaneturner12
June 14th, 2013, 09:30 AM
Think carefully on that one RRSignal. In the case of boxed products, anything can change without N3V being able to change what is on your box. Digital Download versions may be slightly different though.

Regarding the advertisements, they are correct in terms of what you get in the 'virgin' version, i.e. without installing patches.

Shane

clam1952
June 14th, 2013, 09:33 AM
But my brother is no longer able to use his older copy of Photoshop, since Adobe is no longer accepting activations for that particular version, so yeah, Adobe's DRM is working.

CS2? see here, Adobe supplied downloads that don't need activation, for licensed users, I've used it on my Mac version of Photoshop.

http://www.adobe.com/downloads/cs2_downloads/index.html

RRSignal
June 14th, 2013, 09:46 AM
Think carefully on that one RRSignal. In the case of boxed products, anything can change without N3V being able to change what is on your box. Digital Download versions may be slightly different though.

Regarding the advertisements, they are correct in terms of what you get in the 'virgin' version, i.e. without installing patches.

Shane

Really? I guess the U.S. may have stronger consumer-protection laws than we're given credit for, then, not to mention contract laws. You're missing two facts here: The "virgin" version doesn't have all the features which it claims to do so (or, more accurately, some of them are broken), nor does it state an internet connection as a system requirement. As we all know, you could patch the flaws and, without introducing the internet connection as a system requirement, and not substantially change the product and the terms and conditions under which it was advertised and sold. Alternatively, had all the features originally advertised worked, you might (or very likely might not) be able to issue a patch that requires an internet connection. Ultimately, that would be up to a court or arbitrator, which could go either way on that as to whether a manufacturer has that discretion.

The problem here is, you need to meet a different set of minimum system requirements than what was advertised, to be able to use the features the program was advertised as having from the get-go.

shaneturner12
June 14th, 2013, 09:51 AM
It does actually mention an internet requirement on the box as required for some features (unless your box(es) are different to mine).

Regarding terms and conditions, I've read a lot in UK news regarding this as it appears that companies do have an ability to change certain terms and conditions but they are supposed to notify users first (which I agree that this is something N3V should have done, but I don't know much about Australian laws).

Bear in mind though that once a boxed version leaves the factory, the manufacturer cannot change what is on that box.

Shane

RRSignal
June 14th, 2013, 09:54 AM
CS2? see here, Adobe supplied downloads that don't need activation, for licensed users, I've used it on my Mac version of Photoshop.

http://www.adobe.com/downloads/cs2_downloads/index.html

I told him about that after somebody posted the link here a few months back. I don't remember if he used CS2, CS3 or CS4, but thanks for the link. I give Adobe credit for their ethos since there was no obligation for them to do this (as far as I know about.) I hope they do this for CS4 users once that goes out of support, as I know quite a few people who use that.

RRSignal
June 14th, 2013, 10:00 AM
It does actually mention an internet requirement on the box as required for some features (unless your box(es) are different to mine).

Regarding terms and conditions, I've read a lot in UK news regarding this as it appears that companies do have an ability to change certain terms and conditions but they are supposed to notify users first (which I agree that this is something N3V should have done, but I don't know much about Australian laws).

Bear in mind though that once a boxed version leaves the factory, the manufacturer cannot change what is on that box.

Shane

I'm referring to the online ads, which is what I based my purchase on for both the game and the DLC; I ordered the boxed copy from N3V and never even saw the box of either TS2010 or TS12 until almost 1-2 weeks after placing my order. Come to think of it, the only Trainz product I've ever seen in a store was UTC. But, just out of curiosity I'll check my TS12 box when I get home from the office.

shaneturner12
June 14th, 2013, 10:04 AM
I will have a look at the online ads, although I know the ones relating to the DLC would need to apply to all supported Windows versions (that would be TS2009/TS2010/TS12 apart from the Aerotrain, which is TS2010/TS12).

I'm interested to see what your boxed version of TS12 says though.

Shane

EDIT: Looks like the online ad for TS12 doesn't mention internet connection. One for Helpdesk I think...

JCitron
June 14th, 2013, 10:15 AM
I told him about that after somebody posted the link here a few months back. I don't remember if he used CS2, CS3 or CS4, but thanks for the link. I give Adobe credit for their ethos since there was no obligation for them to do this (as far as I know about.) I hope they do this for CS4 users once that goes out of support, as I know quite a few people who use that.

It was I that posted the link regarding CS2. I run the software under Windows 8 perfectly with admin rights. No need to register and no need to run the Adobe updater. Who cares about this. Photoshop works for just what it's supposed to do and so do the other programs.

Anyway.... back up on topic...

The consumer rules in the UK are very similar to the US laws from what I've read.

Regarding software licenses. Does anyone read them? :)

They usually say in there that the end-user has the right to use the software and it is sold as is. Amongst the blah, blah, eye-glazing over rhetoric are the terms and conditions which can be changed at any time. There is also a statement in there somewhere, usually, regarding how the company owns the software and they can change the terms and update the software at any time because they own it not the end-user.

And, just as I said originally nothing has changed here in a decade. :)

John

boc61
June 14th, 2013, 10:16 AM
I just checked my box and there is no mention of requiring an internet connection. Multiplayer is advertised. I know some games will say "Internet connection required for multiplayer" or something to that effect. Oversight?

shaneturner12
June 14th, 2013, 10:17 AM
Possibly. I know that certain versions did mention an internet connection on the box though.

Shane

RRSignal
June 14th, 2013, 11:01 AM
Regarding software licenses. Does anyone read them? :)

They usually say in there that the end-user has the right to use the software and it is sold as is. Amongst the blah, blah, eye-glazing over rhetoric are the terms and conditions which can be changed at any time. There is also a statement in there somewhere, usually, regarding how the company owns the software and they can change the terms and update the software at any time because they own it not the end-user.

ME! ME! ME! (raises hand excitedly). Yeah, I'm that guy. I do read contracts, I read the fine print, yadda, yadda, etc. and even pick it apart. A lot of it stems from running my own business, but I truly do enjoy the law.

You're referring to what's called an open-ended contract or agreement. They're half the reason why courts exist. :D

RRSignal
June 14th, 2013, 07:33 PM
I will have a look at the online ads, although I know the ones relating to the DLC would need to apply to all supported Windows versions (that would be TS2009/TS2010/TS12 apart from the Aerotrain, which is TS2010/TS12).

I'm interested to see what your boxed version of TS12 says though.

Shane

EDIT: Looks like the online ad for TS12 doesn't mention internet connection. One for Helpdesk I think...

Nope, no mention of internet connection on my boxed copy either.

Unrelated to the internet/DRM issue, but interesting to note, I did notice a statement I've never seen before relating to graphics cards that says, "Laptop models of these graphics cards may work but are not supported." TS2010 has that disclaimer too. It probably would be a good idea for N3V to put that on the SimulatorCentral site.

sparky15
June 14th, 2013, 08:14 PM
What version of Trainz were you using when you bought the DLC?
Does that content still work as advertised in that version?*
I'm no N3V fan and despise DRM. Seems you are beating a dead horse beyond death. Good, bad or indifferent, the software changed two years after you bought your content. Grab the version that tickles you without DRM and run with it.*
It all worked to your liking at some point.*
If not, dump the video game and move on. Its a video game, not a career investment.

haddock56
June 14th, 2013, 08:54 PM
I'd like to throw in my two cents and state that Adobe is an entirely different
company from N3V. I would rather see the developers work with the Trainz community
and find a middle ground where everyone is comfortable with the product than take
the other route. I've kept with Trainz 2010 since its worked just fine since the
first time I used it.
Now I generally do not reply the way I'm about to, but this is enough of
spewing this DRM crap all over the forums. RRSignal, please stop spewing bullsh**
all over the forums, and if you want to have a heated debate about the ins and outs
of DRM, send a frigging message to someone instead of shoveling this pile of horse
manure out onto the rest of us. Someone close this thread before another flame
war starts and the rest of the DRM fanboys come out of hiding.................

****My apologies to the community and the mods, i hardly ever fly off the
handle here on the forums. Just another case of too much craziness, and
the fact that one thread about DRM is quite enough since it seems to be such a volatile topic****

ianwoodmore
June 14th, 2013, 09:31 PM
I'd like to think a few things have changed in 10 years.

Pre TRS2004 I still had 32K dialup. I had a 17in Asus Aspire Notebook. Top of the line. I can remember some very frustrating times in trying to load Trainz in the early days.

I've purchased every update and new version since.
When I bought Trainz Classics I was lucky if I exceeded 12FPS. Redraw was a nightmare. I still run SnC under TS12 SP1. Two of the dislikes I originally had were galloping track and Telegraph/Power Lines splines.

New techniques

James Moody has just started a new blog TrainzDev (pity we lost the TRS2009 Trainzdev forum, there was a goldmine of info there) on new ways to do splines. Ocemy has a demo route. This is using TS12 SP1 TB 3.7 assets. I was getting close to 200FPS using the Blue Comet consist on a top line computer with dual GTX460 graphics cards, Win 8, Intel i7 CPU, 32GB quad channel RAM, OCZ Vector RAID0 dual SSDs in c:drive and 3 monitors.

Many routes and sessions run at FPS far lower than that and may have very little stutter, yet the stutter albeit reduced is still present at 100FPS+. I think we make too much noise over low FPS when it is smoothness of the simulation that is more important. 15FPS is probably the lower limit due to integration of movement as perceived by eye and filtered by our brains. 200 FPS is far too high and can cause overheating of computer. In any case VSync rules the day at the moment. So 60Hz dictates 60FPS actual. One of the major causes of stutter in the game is asset.tdx backup and rename to assetx.bku. Smaller stutters occur when game writes to its database. Why do we need to do this in the middle of the game? Surely all relevant assets should be in cache or main RAM. Of course even with SATA 6Gbps HDD you are still limited by spindle speed. And Trainz cache is with the programme on your HDD. If you have a very large TAD (almost 1TB) as I do then it is not an option to mount Trainz on an SSD because of cost. And you will still get the stutters.

STUTTERING

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6857/a...-roadmap-fraps (http://www.anandtech.com/show/6857/amd-stuttering-issues-driver-roadmap-fraps)

A topical treatise on one of graphics problems.


The Gamer's Graphics & Display Settings Guide

[Page 5] Graphics Settings - Frames Per Second

http://www.tweakguides.com/Graphics_5.html


[Page 9] Graphics Settings - Vertical Synchronization

http://www.tweakguides.com/Graphics_9.html

Multiplayer

Multiplayer came in with TS2010 SP4. Not one of my favourite innovations. While it served a niche market need I dislike the fact that you can only use DLS or builtin assets that are unmodified. Bit of an oxymoron really considering that many assets on DLS have to be modified to get them to work properly. I further dislike that you can only test it by uploading an MP version to DLS. We are getting overwhelmed by MP WIP cluttering up our downloads. Many finished MP are nice routes/sessions but when you try to explore them you cannot run in single player mode.

However, I have found a very intriguing and exciting variation for those of you who would like an MP experience without having to rely on others to either host or join a session.

For those of you with high end computers with multiple monitors you can start an MP session as host then:

a. Run multiple instances of the same MP route session on the same monitor but preferably on separate monitors.
b. Control several trains separately on different computers. Mine are LAN connected but the MP hosting is still through the internet.
c. Control several instances of the same train on different monitors or computers each in a different camera view (cab, chase altitude shot, and map view). If on same computer you can use Raildriver to control a single train simultaneously in different views. A sort of CTC. You can also feed a VCR or DVD of real trains onto a monitor to give more realism to the experience.

And that is just for starters. We couldn't of done that a decade ago because the hardware wasn't available.

JCitron
June 15th, 2013, 12:16 PM
Ian,

I agree that a lot has changed technology wise, but the people haven't. :)

John