Yeah, the last time I checked all Americans were begging for it:

[Euphod]

http://thehill.com/blogs/transporta...-of-high-speed-rail-remains-as-strong-as-ever

First things first: Increase the GDP, reduce the unemployment and cut the regulations. Then we can talk about massive boondoggles.

 

[Paulsw2]

GDP doesn't increase magically by itself. At a time of Depression (which is clearly what we're all in) the private sector will not invest because there's no demand for their products. Public works, particularly in infrastructure like High Speed Rail, are justified to kick start the economy, get people back into jobs and spending money again. As Keynes said, "Take care of unemployment and the deficit will take care of itself."

I'm astonished that we're having to relearn the lessons of the 1930s all over again and we know where that benighted decade led!

Paul (in a New Deal kind of mood)

....cut the regulations....

For Wall Street, the banks and morgage financiers perhaps? Oh, I forgot, that's how we got into this mess! :hehe:

 

[Mikado]

GDP doesn't increase magically by itself. At a time of Depression (which is clearly what we're all in) the private sector will not invest because there's no demand for their products. Public works, particularly in infrastructure like High Speed Rail, are justified to kick start the economy, get people back into jobs and spending money again. As Keynes said, "Take care of unemployment and the deficit will take care of itself."

I'm astonished that we're having to relearn the lessons of the 1930s all over again and we know where that benighted decade led!

Paul (in a New Deal kind of mood)



For Wall Street, the banks and morgage financiers perhaps? Oh, I forgot, that's how we got into this mess! :hehe:

Breaking windows will increase GDP and so will road accidents. I still think they should be avoided. Unfortunately government is not the best judges of what is a wise investment.
Mostly they are influenced by people that are going to make a profit out the government policy, like a certain British economist that made a bundle on the stock exchange in the 1930s.

R/Tom (in a conserned for the little people kind of mood)

 

[sawyer811]

GDP doesn't increase magically by itself. At a time of Depression (which is clearly what we're all in) the private sector will not invest because there's no demand for their products. Public works, particularly in infrastructure like High Speed Rail, are justified to kick start the economy, get people back into jobs and spending money again. As Keynes said, "Take care of unemployment and the deficit will take care of itself."

I'm astonished that we're having to relearn the lessons of the 1930s all over again and we know where that benighted decade led!

Paul (in a New Deal kind of mood)



For Wall Street, the banks and morgage financiers perhaps? Oh, I forgot, that's how we got into this mess! :hehe:

He's got a point, you know...FDR didn't "Fix" the great depression in the 1930's, but his policies and programs did get the country stabilized (at least more stable than it had been). Granted, the Second World War was what really pulled us out (I seem to recall reading something that said if Hitler hadn't come along when he did, the Great Depression could have easily lasted into the early 1960s), but sometimes you need a nation program to get the people back to work again; and it ain't like this country's not fallin' to pieces anyway, eh?

 

[bl4882]

I have serious doubts about whether public works programs got us out of the depression of the '30s, as it seems to me that unemployment was about the same in the late thirties as it was at the beginning. What can be said for all of the public works projects of the '30s is that they allowed a lot of people who otherwise might have starved to put food on the table, and at least we got some useful dams, bridges, and roads built. The same can't be said for HSR, especially the California version.

Bernie

 

[steamboateng]

I think the Mayan calander is gonna take care of alll your gripes!
Nothin' to sweat;.................it's over.............suck on a beer.........hug your loved ones........... then bend over and.........!

 

[nikos1]

Massive boondoggles? Like the war in Iraq, Afghanistan, and if the neo cons get their way Iran? How about the war on drugs and the ATF funding Mexican cartels with taxpayer dollars? A HSR system would actually benefit this country and would create jobs in many industrial sectors. I'd much rather have my tax money go towards this than many of the current uses of the money.

 

[JCitron]

I think the Mayan calander is gonna take of alll your gripes!
Nothin' to sweat;.................it's over.............suck on a beer.........hug your loved ones........... then bend over and.........!

....nothing will happen except for a bunch of idiots who will end up bankrupt because they went on spending sprees as though the world was ending.

That's something I can't wait to see.

John

 

[steamboateng]

John, looking forward to shakin' your hand Jan 1st, 2013!
2013.............now that might be an interesting year...............

 

[bl4882]

"Massive boondoggles? Like the war in Iraq, Afghanistan, and if the neo cons get their way Iran? How about the war on drugs and the ATF funding Mexican cartels with taxpayer dollars?"

Therefore, what? So it's OK to spend double digit billions of dollars for the initial build so that we can have high speed rail connecting the San Fernando Valley with Fresno in 2022 (at best)? It will certainly please all the Valley Girls who have been dying for a high speed link to the Raisin Capital, but some of us question whether it really is a good buy. Here's an interesting read about the latest HSR "plan." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/12/california-high-speed-rail-authority_n_1422401.html

Bernie

 

[rjhowie]

I got a tizzy when I seen the thread title and thought "Oh my Heavens they are apologising for the Boston tea throwing and want back!" More seriously though the fact that so many States are interested in rail projects is a welcome one in a land where passenger trains have appeared to be more of an endangered species unlike in more progressive areas in the rest of the Western world. It's a clued item on energy matters and mass transportation. Rather sad that politicos in particular States got sniffy about rail.

 

[steamboateng]

First off, let's get sumthin' straight.........There will be no apologisin' for the 'tea throwin'; what's over 'n done is done!
However, we could use a dictionary or two, so's we know what the hell your talkin' about!
High speed rail is on its way here. It doesn't matter that Valley Girls were behind the legislation........it's gonna happen.
We have a problem here, we're very spread out over a large area. That rail system, or any rail system is gonna cost a lot of $$.
And I agree, a country as rich and as progressive as the US, should be ashamed it has not provided the basic transportation infrastructure it requires.
Note: State polititions are like farts in a sweet summer breeze..............

 

[JCitron]

I got a tizzy when I seen the thread title and thought "Oh my Heavens they are apologising for the Boston tea throwing and want back!" More seriously though the fact that so many States are interested in rail projects is a welcome one in a land where passenger trains have appeared to be more of an endangered species unlike in more progressive areas in the rest of the Western world. It's a clued item on energy matters and mass transportation. Rather sad that politicos in particular States got sniffy about rail.

As usual, Bob you summed this up on a simple paragraph.

John

 

[rjhowie]

Don't know why you should need a dictionary after all it is our language and you do use it to a varying degree steamboateng! You may have a problem with the locals but the wind is in the Beltway often enough too. However we in the world elsewhere have worked out that America IS a big place and you actually did once have a proper national passenger rail system and unlike Great Britain and Europe we still have a wide one. Most of our rail here is passenger and longer distance routes such as 400 miles and above often have several trains a day rather than one or so. You do agree that it would be basically good to see a wider situation in your country and that there are States over the pond which are interested shows they are not all farting but being progressive. However being so big a nation with so many politicians, you might be making more of a world green issue than the cows with the excess wind. factor - tut, tut (!).

Glad you instantly recognised what I said JCitron, so not is all lost in language over there, ha, ha!

Bobby
From Glasgow, centre of the Universe.......

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody.
In several European countries they have experienced four years of recession brought about by government overspending and the banking sector financial collapse in 2008. The remedy within the European Union has been "austerity" which means cutting government spending and in doing reduce government deficit.

When the above policy was first introduced there was widespread support for it right across Europe. However, as time has gone on it is shown to be a failure. Cutting government spending only puts people out of work which then have to be supported by the very governments which put them out of work in the first place.

The foregoing then increases government spending (or at least stops the reduction in the deficit) and so the spiral of unemployment followed by further cutting of spending is set in motion as countries like Greece, Spain and Italy have found out.

I believe that it has at last dawned on many throughout Europe that the only way forward is for governments to place large sums of money into infrastructure projects such as high-speed rail which will put people back into employment therefore contributing to society through their spending and taxes which then sets the whole economy back on the road of expansion. Employment will have to be taken up by private companies rather than the public sector in the future. But private companies will not expand employment while there is no demand in the economy.

Four years of trying other remedies such as austerity has been shown as a failure throughout Europe, therefore there is little else but the above to try before we all topple over the precipice.

Bill

 

[Euphod]

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/bu...uying-house-while-slashing-bills-bullet-train

There's a big difference between maintaining existing infrastructure and building a redundant system.

FDR's policies did not work, as stated by his own secretary of the treasury. I would even ignore that fact, given that the highway system in the US implemented at that time did open up commerce that wouldn't have been able to without the highway system, so in that light allowed private business to soar, which in turn lifted this nation.

As far as job creation; I remember this, attributed to real economist Milton Friedman:

The story goes that Milton Friedman was once taken to see a massive government project somewhere in Asia. Thousands of workers using shovels were building a canal. Friedman was puzzled. Why weren’t there any excavators or any mechanized earth-moving equipment? A government official explained that using shovels created more jobs. Friedman’s response: “Then why not use spoons instead of shovels?”

 

[bl4882]

My problem is that I actually live in California and would like to continue to do so. Euphod, all I have to say is that if we continue with this kind of spending Mr. Brown better budget for the purchase of a lot of spoons, because that is the only grading tool we will be able to afford.

Bernie

 

[RRSignal]

When the above policy was first introduced there was widespread support for it right across Europe. However, as time has gone on it is shown to be a failure. Cutting government spending only puts people out of work which then have to be supported by the very governments which put them out of work in the first place.

The takeaway from that is that Europeans, like Americans, expect to fix 40+ years of insane government growth in 4 years. That isn't going to happen. I know we all live in a quick-fix, gotta-have-it-now culture. It may well take 40 years to fix, and that's even if Europe or the U.S. cut things to the bone and perhaps default on at least some of their obligations. In the U.S., the public employee pension system alone is sinking a lot of states; add in healthcare and forget it. It's beyond unsustainable even with 97% of the people paying for the luxuries of 3% who work for the government.

 

[Euphod]

Bernie, I used in live in California, in several areas from San Leandro down to San Diego. I loved being there, I loved the state! Think of all the assets the state has going for it, and how they've been squandered! I am dismayed and saddened at the news coming from this great state over the past few years! Why can't they realistically assess these projects? I understand the zeal and passion for preserving the natural attributes of the state....it's a gorgeous state! For those that don't understand, California consists of ecosystems ranging from temperate rain forest to arid desert, it's a true gem in the crown of the United States of America.

Unfortunately the great state has taken the ideas of "progressive futurism" a bit too far. It's one thing to embrace utopia as a goal for the future, quite another to do so in a fashion that retains jobs, industry and commerce along with the grand plan. When it comes down to it, what good is it to lavish regulations, infrastructure planning and restrictions to the point where industry and residents must move to Texas in order to achieve the goal of paradise?

Perhaps California is destined to become nothing more than a nature preserve?

It's so sad to see what has happened here. Perhaps the recent voting from San Diego to San Jose provides some hope. I hope you will be able to remain there, and flourish, although I have my personal doubts.

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody.

(snip) The takeaway from that is that Europeans, like Americans, expect to fix 40+ years of insane government growth in 4 years. That isn't going to happen. I know we all live in a quick-fix, gotta-have-it-now culture. It may well take 40 years to fix, and that's even if Europe or the U.S. cut things to the bone and perhaps default on at least some of their obligations. (snip)

RRSiignal do you genuinely believe that any democracy or even a Democratic party could survive 40 years of austerity. Rather timely for this thread the Spanish government have tonight requested a "bailout" for their banks after implementing three years of austerity policy as requested by the European Central bank.

The results of that, Spain now has over 20% adult unemployment and over 50% youth unemployment (persons under 25). That has brought about another crisis in the Spanish banks as the unemployed cannot pay their mortgages or rents and there is almost a complete collapse in the housing market.

Youth unemployment must be tackled immediately and the only way you are going to get those young persons employed is through expansion in the Spanish economy. As was shown in the early 30s young unemployed people can be easily influenced by extremist views. The Nazis recognised that and easily recruited those young idle hands to become their brown shirts who organised the intimidation of anyone who criticised the party or recognised the evil that was about to engulf Germany. History has a nasty habit of repeating itself.

The way forward for Europe and American in my view is the re-industrialisation of their economies and the development of an export lead revival. Getting that revival underway will need spending by governments on National infrastructure projects such as high-speed rail and to make sure that it is re-invigorated industrial production in Europe and America that feeds the requirements of the infrastructure programme. Those industries will then go on to sell its products to the world.

Maggie Thatcher once said "we no longer need the old metal bashing industries" all I can say is China, India and other nations have done very well out of our old metal bashing industries.
Bill