whats your favortie retired steam engine from excursion service

bdubtrain

Member
One of my personal favorite retires excursion steam engines is PRR k4 1361
Pennsylvania-Railroad-K4s-4-6-2-1361-.jpg
 
Hi everybody.
When West coast Railways and their driver involved in the Wooton Basset Spad finaly are brought to court, their will most certainly be many old steam locomotives being kicked about especially in the court room. That being in regard to their performance on the UK mainline which played a very large part in the forgoing Spad.

To old and out of date to be allowed to run on the mainline network these days.
Bill
 
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I'm sorry wholbr, but you are wrong. The SPAD had nothing to do with the locomotive and everything to do with WCRC's blazé attitude towards health and safety practices. I respect your opinion, but you just seem ungrateful.
Thankfully yours is a minority opinion and mainline steam will continue many years in to the future, can't wait until we get to see a P2 on the mainline again...:)
 
Hi everybody.
I'm sorry wholbr, but you are wrong. The SPAD had nothing to do with the locomotive and everything to do with WCRC's blazé attitude towards health and safety practices. I respect your opinion, but you just seem ungrateful.
Thankfully yours is a minority opinion and mainline steam will continue many years in to the future, can't wait until we get to see a P2 on the mainline again...:)

Yes West Coast Railways did have a blaze attitude towards H&S. However, as the Rail accident Investigation Board report into the incident demonstrated it was because the footplate crew did not want to have the train come to a stop, they turned of the train protection. They did the foregoing as once brought to a halt steam locomotives take a substantial time to get underway again causing delays to other train operations and their passengers.

Mine is not a minority view on steam locomotives being allowed on the Mainline nnetwork. For if convictions are secured in the forthcoming case a large passenger group are planning a lobby of parliament to have steam traction removed from the network.

That lobby I Will be joining
Bill
 
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Still not the locomotive's fault. Sorry, but it's a weak argument. As the recent high profile launches of Flying Scotsman and Tornado have shown, public appetite for steam is still high, with thousands lining the tracks when they made their first runs. They are as much a part of British heritage as the works of Jane Austen, Concorde, the Royal family and Big Ben. Whatever petition you launch to ban steam from the national network, another petition will almost certainly be launched to counter it, and I guarentee it will gather at least twice the signatures. Another thing you have to consider is the immense distress you would cause to people who have worked long and hard, and those who have given significant financial contributions to projects like Duke of Gloucester, Tornado etc. Yes, they can still run on preserved lines, but they shouldn't have to. They were built for the mainline, and that's were they should stay. Something that also bothers me is the pettiness of the anti-steam people. Your arguement is based on things like "Steam excursions delay and hold up regular services". Well, yes, they might do, but the people in said steam excursions probably paid serious cash to be on them (A seat on 60103's first run cost somewhere in the region of £400) so isn't it right that they be afforded priority. I could go on all day about why this is a terrible idea, but I won't because it will never happen.
If it does, however, you and your lobby should be ashamed of yourself for denying young people the chance to see proper engineering hard at work where it should be, and for defiling the memory of people like Alan Peglar and Geoff Drury who worked hard to ensure steam locomotives would run on the mainline for generations to come.
 
I have to agree with Nathen on this one espically towards the topic of people paying to see this, in the US rail excursions usually bring more good than bad towards the people who are sponsoring and supporting these types of operations. I remember in a article in Trains magazine once where Wick Morrman said that "These steam excursions bring your company new friends and supporters and Steam locomotives are the best way to do this" plus have you consider about all the hard work people go into restoring these steam locomotives back to life in the days where parts are scarce and most have to be fabricated into new parts, so I find it hard that you would at least think about the men and women who volunteered their spend time to keeping the past alive. There is another old saying "with a diesel it's just a train, with a steam locomotive, it's an event".
 
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Hi Everybody.
Mention has been made in this thread of the numbers who turned out to see the Flying Scotsman in recent weeks. However, I feel I have to point out that those "viewers" would be dwarfed on any single day by the numbers of commuters who use the British rail network for their everyday travel. Those users pay very high ticket prices again on a daily or seasonal basis for that travel and are the people who really pay for the upkeep of the network and not those who wish to play choo-choos on the mainline on an irregular basis.
Trackside viewers pay nothing towards the railways, while regular travelers pay everything and without them there would be nothing.

In the above, to state that under performing heritage services should be allowed to delay regular scheduled services is turning reality and good economics on its head and would quickly lead to those regular rail users finding alternatives to train use if sanctioned and carried out, which it will never be. Heritage locomotives cannot have by there very design the performance of modern consists and that is a fault of those heritage vehicles and not the persons who drive those trains. On Britain's overcrowded rail network the forgoing situation does put great pressure on those operating heritage units and it was that pressure which we all know now led to the Wooton Basset Spad, endangering the lives of over seven hundred people.

Heritage rolling stock also has safety deficiencies which it seems cannot be resolved in a modern railway context. Therefore, in my view and it would seem in the view of a growing number, heritage trains should only be run on Britain's preserved railways where those who wish to restore, run and travel on them can do so without interference and endangerment to one of of the UK's main transport and economic infrastructures.

nathemallard, with every respect for and in response to your posting at #8 of this thread where you advise that I should be "ashamed" of my involvement? with the Parliament lobby group which will form if the convictions of West Coast Railways and it's driver are secured (ref the Wooton Basset Spad). I most definatly am not ashamed of that involvement, for what I and others wish to see is a UK rail transport infrastructure that is safe, reliable and forward looking and not one that looks back to days of decline, filth and unreliability that were the days of steam in the 1950s-60s.

My wife and me along with a group of lifelong friends are today to fly out to watch England in the European football championship ( The Euro's) in France. We will also be visiting the battlefield's of the Somme and both world wars international cemetery's to pay our respects. All those that fell in those titanic struggles died fighting for the democratic freedoms we have today which include a Parliament responsive to those who elected it. That response means that members of Parliament must allow lobby groups to meet with them and put forward their case for new legislation or legislation changes and the forgoing has been sanctioned under law for more than two centuries. Therefore, no person should be told or made to feel ashamed for lobbying Parliament for a cause they feel passionately for even if others disagree

As stated, the above is the rights and value's so many have given their lives for through so many struggle's, and anyone peacefully championing a cause should be encouraged to do so and not told to feel ashamed.


Bill
 
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Hi Everybody.
Mention has been made in this thread of the numbers who turned out to see the Flying Scotsman in recent weeks. However, I feel I have to point out that those "viewers" would be dwarfed on any single day by the numbers of commuters who use the British rail network for their everyday travel. Those users pay very high ticket prices again on a daily or seasonal basis for that travel and are the people who really pay for the upkeep of the network and not those who wish to play choo-choos on the mainline on an irregular basis.
Trackside viewers pay nothing towards the railways, while regular travelers pay everything and without them there would be nothing.

Hi Bill,

You appear to be making the presumption that everyday commuters are not happy in general with heritage locomotives using Network Rail. As an everyday commuter, I am perfectly happy to see heritage locomotives on Network Rail.

My train was delayed today, but as usual, it was nothing to do with heritage locomotion.
 
Perhaps 'ashamed' was too strong a word but the point still stands. A new steam ban would render the hard work of thousands of people pointless, and hugely damage the morale of the preservation movement as a whole. No Western country has totally banned steam from their mainlines, there are regular excursions in the US, Australia, Germany and Holland. It would be a massive backwards step. Something I haven't mentioned before is that mainline steam inspires young people to get involved in railway preservation. Yes, they can still go and see steam trains running on preserved lines, but seeing them speeding past on the mainline is far more exciting in their eyes. Mainline steam also creates media interest- the BBC's coverage of Flying Scotsman and Top Gear's 'Race to the North' episode, for example. The latter in particular showed young people steam locomotives in a slightly 'cooler' light, rather than as a old man's hobby. Without more young people becoming enthusiasts, the preservation movement will wither and die. Oh and as for:
to days of decline, filth and unreliability that were the days of steam in the 1950s-60s.
Far more people used trains then than they do now, buffet services were provided on most express services, tickets were affordable to normal people, railwaymen took far more pride in the appearance of their equipment AND if there was a problem, a new locomotive could be sourced very easily. It started going downhill in the late 80's and 90's, as more people began using cars and BR hiked up ticket prices, and as for privatisation, it is the biggest disaster to ever hit Britain's railways since Beeching. It's a race to the bottom as far as I'm concerned, now comfortable, well-maintained and plentiful coaching stock has been replaced with cheap, claustrophobic plastic DMUs with seats like church pews. Because of the TOC's obession with profit, many working and lower middle class people have been priced out of using the railways, with ticket prices for trunk routes now frequently in the hundereds. See for yourself- first go on a tacky Class 170 or something like that, and then go to your nearest preserved railway and take a trip in a Mk1 or Mk2 carriage, hauled by a steam or heritage diesel locomotive. I think we can all agree that the preserved train would offer a more comfortable and enjoyable travelling experience, and this is coming from a college student who wasn't even alive during the 1950s and 60s!
I think more people would use the railways if we did the opposite of what you suggest, and ban tacky modern MU's and let steam take over their duties instead!
EDIT- here's a photo comparison-which would you rather travel on?
A Class 170, circa 2016:
15707575657_496f4d6ec4_b.jpg

Or a Mk1 constructed during the era of 'filth and decline':
British_Railways_Mark_1_RMB_1869_Interior.JPG
 
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Perhaps 'ashamed' was too strong a word but the point still stands. A new steam ban would render the hard work of thousands of people pointless, and hugely damage the morale of the preservation movement as a whole. No Western country has totally banned steam from their mainlines, there are regular excursions in the US, Australia, Germany and Holland. It would be a massive backwards step. Something I haven't mentioned before is that mainline steam inspires young people to get involved in railway preservation. Yes, they can still go and see steam trains running on preserved lines, but seeing them speeding past on the mainline is far more exciting in their eyes. Mainline steam also creates media interest- the BBC's coverage of Flying Scotsman and Top Gear's 'Race to the North' episode, for example. The latter in particular showed young people steam locomotives in a slightly 'cooler' light, rather than as a old man's hobby. Without more young people becoming enthusiasts, the preservation movement will wither and die. Oh and as for:

Far more people used trains then than they do now, buffet services were provided on most express services, tickets were affordable to normal people, railwaymen took far more pride in the appearance of their equipment AND if there was a problem, a new locomotive could be sourced very easily. It started going downhill in the late 80's and 90's, as more people began using cars and BR hiked up ticket prices, and as for privatisation, it is the biggest disaster to ever hit Britain's railways since Beeching. It's a race to the bottom as far as I'm concerned, now comfortable, well-maintained and plentiful coaching stock has been replaced with cheap, claustrophobic plastic DMUs with seats like church pews. Because of the TOC's obession with profit, many working and lower middle class people have been priced out of using the railways, with ticket prices for trunk routes now frequently in the hundereds. See for yourself- first go on a tacky Class 170 or something like that, and then go to your nearest preserved railway and take a trip in a Mk1 or Mk2 carriage, hauled by a steam or heritage diesel locomotive. I think we can all agree that the preserved train would offer a more comfortable and enjoyable travelling experience, and this is coming from a college student who wasn't even alive during the 1950s and 60s!
I think more people would use the railways if we did the opposite of what you suggest, and ban tacky modern MU's and let steam take over their duties instead!
EDIT- here's a photo comparison-which would you rather travel on?
A Class 170, circa 2016:
15707575657_496f4d6ec4_b.jpg

Or a Mk1 constructed during the era of 'filth and decline':
British_Railways_Mark_1_RMB_1869_Interior.JPG


wow very nice passenger cars
 
[Quote;] No Western country has totally banned steam from their mainlines, there are regular excursions in the US, Australia, Germany and Holland. It would be a massive backwards step. Something I haven't mentioned before is that mainline steam inspires young people to get involved in railway preservation. [unquote]

And in New Zealand.

Very expensive but well supported here.

Cheers,
Bill69
 
Hi everybody.
Nathem with every respect to your posting a #12 of this thread,but the information you present their is entirely inaccurate. You state that more people used the Uk railways in the 1950s-60s than at present, when in truth passenger numbers declined dramaticly in that period due to people buying there first car to get away from using the dirty unreliable railways. Many of us can vouch to that as a fact as we where around at that time and purchased our first cars for the above reasons.

In regard to British Rail taking pride in their equipment, ALL of the locomotives and coaches where covered in soot and grime to the state that you could not honestly see the names and numbers on their sides. Along with the forgoing the insides of the coaches where dirty and unkept, looking nothing like the preserved examples in your photographs.

By the early 1960s the railways where costing the British taxpayers like myself a fortune to keep running with few people using them and therefore Dr Beaching was brought in with his axe. Dr Beaching actually did the railways a great service in creating a manageable sized rail network that was sustanable and acseptible in terms of taxpayer subsidy. In that he saved the network as many right wing MPs wished to see the railways completely closed down and many of the lines turned into roads for the new cars.

It was in the mid 1980s that the railways really began to recover with class 42s intercity services being introduced. Railway passenger numbers have never been higher than they are now, but that is now under threat from passenger dissatisfaction due to overcrowding on a great many services.

Britain is one of the most densely populated countries in the world and it's railways one of the most overcrowded. Therefore, there is no room for under performing and unsafe heritage consists on the mainline network as that causes further delays (as if there where already not enough) with further ever growing passenger dissatisfaction.

Nathem, please believe what I have stated in regards to the UK railway's in the 1960s as I and many others (some of which I am at the airport now with) all have recollections of the same in regard to the state British rail pre Beaching and the closing days of steam.

I probably will not be responding further to posting on this tread as we are all off on the holiday of a lifetime (French industrial relations willing) returning in almost a months time having seen the battlefields and war cemeteries of Europe and then returning with European football championship trophy without one thread of a doubt.

Debate with you then again Nathem and all, but until then all the best. Just been called for the flight “we are off at last”.

Bill
 
Well enjoy your holiday, and actually, I get your point about Beeching, from a pure financial perspective. However, many lines were closed down unnecessarily, such as the GCR. And the InterCity 125 is a great train, much better than the Voyagers that have replaced them on some routes. The APT would be just as legendary, too, has it been successful.
 
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Britain is one of the most densely populated countries in the world and it's railways one of the most overcrowded. Therefore, there is no room for under performing and unsafe heritage consists on the mainline network as that causes further delays (as if there where already not enough) with further ever growing passenger dissatisfaction.

Bill, I'm afraid you're making it up. Satisfaction is on the up, not dissatisfaction.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35420125
 
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