Want to create routes payware, have some questions about copyright

[dorumirel]

First, because this is my first post on trainz forum I want to say HI :wave: to everybody.

I want to create payware routes for trainz 2012. i will make a website were people will find the paid routes and demo and free stuff also. Pretty standard as I seen on some of the websites that I found by searching this forum.

I'm not in creating the locomotives or scenery but I like more to create nice routes for were the so many trains can be used.

But before I start jumping into this what about the copyright?

More precisely, I know I can't include in my payware routes content created by other people free or payware. But what about the content that comes with trainz 2012? The default content that you have when you do a clean install of trainz 2012?

Is it ok to use that content to create a payware route? I'm ok from the copyright point of view in this?

Also, how many people will actually buy my routes? There's a "market" for this?

Thank you for all your answers!

 

[cascaderailroad]

I would think that you would only be able to use Built-In assets.

And that any 3rd party assets you would have to contact each and every creator, and ask them for permission to use their assets, unless their config file explicitly allows use in a payware creation.

Maybe I am wrong on some of this ... IDK

 

[zatovisualworks]

Ciao, dorumirel, benvenuto.

Let's comment on your questions.

But what about the content that comes with trainz 2012? The default content that you have when you do a clean install of trainz 2012?

That content is there; nobody can trade, remove, add, change, hide, hire, lend, or disguise it. It's what stays there all the time and also the core of the game along with the digital code. So, no problem with that. You aren't distributing or trading with it. This what your would-be buyer is self-contributing to your layout. The Company have set no limitation or prohibition on that... but I don't want to supply them with any malevolent idea... :hehe:

Also, how many people will actually buy my routes? There's a "market" for this?

Don't expect to buy a Ferrari on it, or even a Fiat, caro ragazzo.

Just ask your fellow countrypeople at TrainzItalia - dear Pendolino, Jango and Co.- I don't think they can match Mr Berlusconi's fortune. :hehe: Hope it's an extra income that is always welcomed.

Of course, all your luck and success will depend on the quality of your outcome. If your artistry is superb, your sales will be better. But please, bear in your mind that there are many wonderful freeware route creators that will be 'competing' with you at no cost for us all.

Good luck, ragazzo.

Il lado italiano de Alberte :wave:

 

[dorumirel]

thank you for your answers!

Well no I do not want buy a Ferrari with an income from those routes :hehe: but just combine pleasure and business. Maybe use the eventual money to buy some other content from other people That will be really nice.

Well I hope to make some nice routes but I think I can't be the judge in this

So if I go with using the content from the default install + creating scenery by myself (I know a little 3d) then I will be ok? Should I contact auran or nv3 just to be really sure, and if yes where I can find the contacts for this kind of issue.

And is ok to show work in progress on this forum for my payware routes or I will break some rules? I don't want to break them

Sorry about all the question.

 

[cascaderailroad]

You can freely post just about any photo or screenshot and progress of your route (prior to release of your route) and show any screenshot of any asset or Personal reskin, whether it is freeware, or payware.

EDIT: ---> AS TO: Releasing and re-distributing the freeware assets, wherein that their config file explicitly states: "May not be included in any payware creation" used on your route, that may be a legal issue

... and payware re-distribution would be illegal.

 

[zatovisualworks]

:wave: Further info along with CRR's:

And is ok to show work in progress on this forum for my payware routes or I will break some rules? I don't want to break them

You can start your own thread on the Payware Forum. IMO is the most suitable place.

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/forumdisplay.php?f=21

But please, don't start it until you have something tangible to offer. That's a sensible practice there.

So if I go with using the content from the default install + creating scenery by myself (I know a little 3d) then I will be ok? Should I contact auran or nv3 just to be really sure, and if yes where I can find the contacts for this kind of issue.

As a summary:

• For built-in and your own content you don't need to contact anybody but your artistry to place them wisely.

• For third party contents and assets on the DLS, contact the original creators to ask for a deal. If you get no answer, it doesn't mean a go ahead, just the opposite= 'think about another option'.

• Just the possibility of downloading them from the DLS doesn't mean that you can include others' assets on your payware route without expressed authorization.

• By uploading assets to the DLS we creators accept a non-exclusive deal with The Company for allowing trainzers to download and use them on their routes. If the freeware route is release for public enjoyment these assets can be retrieved automatically via the CM's. The Company is also allowed to use DLS assets on their own commercial releases. A very generous deal from our part, I do think. :hehe:
  

• All the above doesn't apply for payware routes. You have to contact the original creators to get their expressed permission, either for assets on the DLS or for Third Party Site ones.

If not clarified enough, I (we) can be even more accurate, just ask.

The always thinking of other options side of Alberte :wave:

 

[dorumirel]

I've pretty made myself an idea, so again thank you all for the answers. I will use the content that come with the game, maybe create some content myself using 3d models or texture that I create myself.

I still have some doubts on this two phrase:

Releasing and re-distributing the freeware assets used on your route, however, that may be another legal issue, and payware re-distribution would be illegal.

I do not understand this phrase sorry, did you refer on using third party content in my route like scenery created by other people? If so, then yes I believe I can't do that as is other people work.

The DLS

did the content that install with trainz 2012 includes third party content from DLS by default? Or if I do not use the DLS then I'm ok? Like to be sure to not accidentally include some content that I forget I've got with DLS.

But if such third party content is present in the trainz default how do I know if a particular resource, let's say a house is actually a third party resource. Don't know if I was clear.

I will post then some work in progress off course when there's something consistent to show else I think it will be just like spaming the forum.

 

[zatovisualworks]

did the content that install with trainz 2012 includes third party content from DLS by default? Or if I do not use the DLS then I'm ok? Like to be sure to not accidentally include some content that I forget I've got with DLS.

But if such third party content is present in the trainz default how do I know if a particular resource, let's say a house is actually a third party resource. Don't know if I was clear.

Do not worry about built-in contents -either DLS-origin or Third Party-origin-. They belong to the core build of every version of Trainz.

Currently there's is a problem with T10 and T12 because the former contains much more built-in contents than the latter. And different ones.

The Company has promised to put all the built-in contents which aren't already on the DLS there.

The unworried side of Alberte :wave:

 

[cascaderailroad]

You would have to look in each and every config file of assets you use, to see if the creator prohibited the use of his asset from being included in any payware creation or payware route.

Example(s):

"For use in Trainz by Auan. Contact author for reskinning authorization. Not to be used in payware routes or content."

===============================================

kuid-table {The progressive mesh file(s), textures, associated files contained in this distribution are copyright 2007 under universal copyright law. Any distribution or alteration of these files other than by the original author (Rene N. Steinkamp) are prohibited excepting the distribution from Auran's servers. If you wish to have these units re-skinned, please transmit the skin as a paint shop pro or targa 24bit graphics file as an attachment to your e-mail to admin@worldoftrainz.com. I will post distributions including those skins under my KUID covered by this EULA giving full credit to the author of the new textures. If for any reason you had to dispense money or services in order to gain access to these files, with the exception of having purchased Trainz from Auran or purchased Trainz from an Auran authorised distributor (*including purchase from a store or reception as a gift expressly given by a person who had legitimate authority to give Trainz as such), please notify me at in@worldoftrainz.com immediately as these files are ONLY for distribution from Auran or Auran authorised services and are ONLY to be distributed as free items as described in the above terms. If you are in posession of these files and are using them in an illegal copy of Auran's Trainz, you are in violation of this EULA and as such, even without reading this file, have given full expressed permission for your local or national law enforcement agencies to sieze said computer equipment that may be used in the storage or distribution of these products for the express purpose of protecting these products' copyrights. This document is permission to sieze and detain any materials used for the illegitimate operation and/or distribution of these products. These contained files are provided 'as-is' with no garuntee either expressed or implied as to their fitness for use with Auran Trainz or any other product on your machine. Neither Auran, nor I are responsible for anything that may happen to your computer or information on your computer, or through those items to any of your or anyone else's posessions. Distribution of replacement TARGA texture and BMP opacity files for these units IS allowed as long as they are not named the same as they should be in the operational directory. Black Line detailed masks of the contained texture files ARE available through e-mail from fordtruc@norex.com.au and will be distributed based on available bandwidth and time to those who request them, HOWEVER copyright IS intained on these specified black line detail masks. The exclusion of other articles of GNU international freeware copyright law is NOT an indication of inapplicability of those laws. NO OTHER STATEMENTS EXCLUDING AURAN EULA APPLY!"

 

[zatovisualworks]

You would have to look in each and every config file of assets you use, to see if the creator prohibited the use of his asset from being included in any payware creation or payware route.

Very true and sensible.

The shortest side of Alberte :wave:

 

[RRSignal]

Not to muddy the waters, but I've long been under the impression that, unless there's a specific statement against using content in payware products - and lots of content creators do flat-out say their content may not be used in payware - that it's otherwise legal. Put another way, unless there's a statement to the contrary, it seems it would be perfectly legal to use freeware in a payware project. It's done all the time outside Trainz e.g. anyone here use Firefox, Chrome, or freeware software, etc. at work?

But, yeah, regardless, I'd still try to contact CCs anyway. If nothing else, it's good manners.

 

[paulzmay]

Not to muddy the waters, but I've long been under the impression that, unless there's a specific statement against using content in payware products - and lots of content creators do flat-out say their content may not be used in payware - that it's otherwise legal. Put another way, unless there's a statement to the contrary, it seems it would be perfectly legal to use freeware in a payware project. It's done all the time outside Trainz e.g. anyone here use Firefox, Chrome, or freeware software, etc. at work?

But, yeah, regardless, I'd still try to contact CCs anyway. If nothing else, it's good manners.

It would be illegal to re-distribute ANY content without the creator's express permission (which may be noted in the config file). Whether it is acceptable to reference (but not re-distribute) an asset from the DLS in a payware route, where the creator has not made his/her wishes clear, is at best a grey area. I would strongly suggest getting permission in any case.

The free browser anaolgy is a total red herring - the EULA of such software permits commercial use. Much free software is free to domestic users and students, but requires payment for commercial use. Unless a Trainz creator has already given a clear EULA, any use outside what is agreed to, by uploading to the DLS requires explicit permission.

Paul

 

[RRSignal]

It would be illegal to re-distribute ANY content without the creator's express permission (which may be noted in the config file). Whether it is acceptable to reference (but not re-distribute) an asset from the DLS in a payware route, where the creator has not made his/her wishes clear, is at best a grey area. I would strongly suggest getting permission in any case.

The free browser anaolgy is a total red herring - the EULA of such software permits commercial use. Much free software is free to domestic users and students, but requires payment for commercial use. Unless a Trainz creator has already given a clear EULA, any use outside what is agreed to, by uploading to the DLS requires explicit permission.

Paul

Is using an asset in route considered "redistribution"?

 

[cascaderailroad]

Good queston: As Leefers assets are on the DLS, but they are not built-in content, users must: "go get it themselves" and download the assets from the DLS, or elsewhere.

Leefers config file states: "For use in Trainz by Auan. Contact author for reskinning authorization. Not to be used in payware routes or content."
==============================
But if an asset is on the DLS, or on a third party site, and it has no "Exclusion from payware route" stipulation ... is it re-distribution of the asset, if is included on your payware route as a dependency ? ? ?

 

[zatovisualworks]

C'mon, guys, not another 'more-of-the-same' debate on copyright.

IO(our -IBTZ's)HO, the best license:

license                            "Contact us"

:hehe: But of late I've encountered another one, on an asset I quoted today, which I do love...

license                            "Give hoot, don't pollute."

:hehe:


And in the past I found one which genuinely said: :hehe::hehe:

license                            "Ask my wife"

I think I'm going to start an investigation on license texts... a funny way to spend some time... which I usually don't spare.

The licensing side of Alberte :wave:

 

[johnwhelan]

Some of my content contains textures that I have permission to use but only if no charge is made ie. freeware.

I note that some of this DLS content has been included in the built-ins.

My understanding and the undertakings I gave when permission to use it was granted was that it should not be used in payware.

I suspect a number of other content creators have similar agreements.

Legally the position will vary from country to country. I would strongly advise you to obtain permission before using content in a payware route. Scenery objects are fairly easy to make and there are people around who will create scenery objects for you for a contribution.

One way out is the method used by SirGibby, the route is free but he sells a payware pack that contains various scenery objects. This method works and is quite acceptable.

Cheerio John

 

[StorkNest]

Do not worry about built-in contents -either DLS-origin or Third Party-origin-. They belong to the core build of every version of Trainz.

Curious, is this a change? Last I knew, if Builtin content did not belong to Auran, you had to ask for use in routes or reskinning/modifying (like changing track on a bridge, not monkeying with the mesh).

Permission got so fussed over the past few years, I even lost track on Auran's permission on their content, I have an open question at HelpDesk about it. Not kidding.

I also have one about permissions and the Wiki I hope the answer would end a bunch of speculation.


dorumirel,
Just my view.
Step 1 - Check the config file of any asset you use, either the license or description field should have something to answer your question.
Step 2 - Contact any creator whose assets you use so they know at least in addition to permissions/approval.
Step 3 - Figure out some way to test the route before sale. This helps note issues such as assets people cannot find and things you may have missed.
Step 4 - If you get permission to use assets outside DLS, make sure to let people know where to find them.

 

[leeferr]

Good queston: As Leefers assets are on the DLS, but they are not built-in content, users must: "go get it themselves" and download the assets from the DLS, or elsewhere.

Leefers config file states: "For use in Trainz by Auan. Contact author for reskinning authorization. Not to be used in payware routes or content."
==============================
But if an asset is on the DLS, or on a third party site, and it has no "Exclusion from payware route" stipulation ... is it re-distribution of the asset, if is included on your payware route as a dependency ? ? ?

Thanks for reminding me that my freeware content on the DLS has that statement in the license in some (if not all) cases. I put that in the license before I really understood that the routes were only referencing the content and were not actually re-distributing them. In light of our inability to upload a trainz-build 2.4 asset update to the DLS, I am giving permission for my content on the DLS to be used in freeware and payware routes as long as the content is not redistributed with the routes and is obtained solely from the DLS or from myself.

Thanks
Mike

 

[zatovisualworks]

...text here...

My apologies, Storkie, if this sounds unkind to you (not my intention, you know) but I'm not debating sterile discussions about copyright, rentright, giftright, givingawayright or similar iterated matters which have created everlasting going nowhere but circling threads all over this sacred site.

Just telling our new would-be payware creator not to worry about built-in assets. They're carved in there in the core of every Trainz version and nobody can change that.

And just telling [let me be iterative once more, Storkie ] that...

IO(our -IBTZ's)HO, the best license:

license                                                           "Contact us"

​

Nothing has changed since the inception of Trainz about this. Trainzetiquette (a sweet

stuff made mainly of honesty, respect, decency and communication) -which is what really matters- remains the same.

Have a nice Good Thursday and Friday days, dear Storkie.

The no any longer copyright debating side of Alberte :wave:

 

[dorumirel]

Now I'm more confused that before

So what I've understood is that most of the content that comes by default with the game is actually created by user in the past and they granted permission to the creator of the games to use that content. Please corect me if I'm wrong.

But, technically, If I create a route using the content that comes with the game those assets will be referenced inside the route files and not actually packed with it. Or no? So if someone download it and install it will automatically have all those assets. They do not come with the routes files.