Trains Keep Committing SPAD

[AdvancedApproach]

For whatever reason the trains want to SPAD instead of coming to a complete stop, realigning the switch, then continuing on their way. On the other end of my route this doesn't happen at all. It's getting really annoying that I have to babysit AI because they won't follow basic rules such as coming to a complete stop short of an absolute signal with a red light indication. I don't have to worry about this at any other switch and they only fix is to leave the switch aligned to the crossover otherwise trains will intentionally blow past committing SPAD and then emergency braking will be enacted and then will wait 2 minutes before restarting. I don't know what else I can do to address and solve this problem but @N3VSupport you people need to fix this now.

 

[pware]

I don't know what else I can do to address

The important thing to remember with the "AI" is that the "I" does not stand for "Intelligence". The AI has never been perfect and never will be to everyone's expectations. It is the reason why real railroads still rely on human dispatchers and signallers, however imperfect they are, instead of any of the modern AI systems. The Trainz AI is certainly one aspect of Trainz that has always drawn complaints, many of them genuine, but I have found that it works well enough if you keep things simple and treat it like the "I" stands for "Idiot".

With AI trains I have found that a great deal depends on your placement of signals (both visible and invisible) and speed signs (again both visible and invisible) on your approach to switches.

What was the signal prior to the Absolute Signal at STOP showing? Is it capable of showing CAUTION or is it just a choice between STOP and PROCEED ? That could affect the approach speed of an AI controlled train. How far apart are the signals. The approach to a junction would normally require advance warning (sometimes called Distant signals) placed closer than normal to the switch signal.

What is different between the signals and/or speed signs at both ends of your route?

Why do most of your complaints end with the demand that N3V must fix this now? From my reading of many of your posts and their responses (and I have contributed a fair few) the problem is often with the way you have constructed a route, are using the assets, or have not understood how the tools provided in the program work. Eliminate those possibilities before you start blaming others.

 

[grazlash]

I agree wholeheartedly with pware. If you treat Trainz AI as an Artificial Idiot and hold its hand regularly, you will have fewer problems with it. Always use signals which can display a caution aspect before an absolute signal and keep distances between signals reasonable. Maybe read a bit about signalling practices in the USA and perhaps elsewhere. Personally, I trained as a signalman before transferring to driving trains and that has given me a grounding in building routes with proper signalling. Even then there are differences to be learned, like signal spacing.
Take the time to learn about the finer aspects (pun intended) of the game before arcing up and demanding N3V fix this or that now. If there is a real problem, other experienced users will be suggesting that the problem needs addressing.

 

[Forester1]

Sorry, just starting my morning coffee. What is SPAD other than a WWI biplane?

 

[JCitron]

Sorry, just starting my morning coffee. What is SPAD other than a WWI biplane?

It's a the British and Australian term.

Signal Passed At Danger

 

[JCitron]

Try putting in some advanced/distant signals ahead of your crossovers. The "AI" drivers will see these and slow down and prepare to stop. The alternative is to place the 3-headed (type 08) signals. These will tell the driver to slow down for the crossover.

Using this method, I never have a SPAD on the mainline. I do get them in yards though when signals are placed to closely together.

I forgot to mention before that the placement Type 05 (advance/distant) signals depends upon the speed of your line. If you are running your trains quickly, you are going to need to place the signals a substantial distance from your crossovers or other absolute signals to give the drivers enough time to respond to the upcoming signals.

 

[AdvancedApproach]

The important thing to remember with the "AI" is that the "I" does not stand for "Intelligence". The AI has never been perfect and never will be to everyone's expectations. It is the reason why real railroads still rely on human dispatchers and signallers, however imperfect they are, instead of any of the modern AI systems. The Trainz AI is certainly one aspect of Trainz that has always drawn complaints, many of them genuine, but I have found that it works well enough if you keep things simple and treat it like the "I" stands for "Idiot".

With AI trains I have found that a great deal depends on your placement of signals (both visible and invisible) and speed signs (again both visible and invisible) on your approach to switches.

What was the signal prior to the Absolute Signal at STOP showing? Is it capable of showing CAUTION or is it just a choice between STOP and PROCEED ? That could affect the approach speed of an AI controlled train. How far apart are the signals. The approach to a junction would normally require advance warning (sometimes called Distant signals) placed closer than normal to the switch signal.

What is different between the signals and/or speed signs at both ends of your route?

Why do most of your complaints end with the demand that N3V must fix this now? From my reading of many of your posts and their responses (and I have contributed a fair few) the problem is often with the way you have constructed a route, are using the assets, or have not understood how the tools provided in the program work. Eliminate those possibilities before you start blaming others.

I agree wholeheartedly with pware. If you treat Trainz AI as an Artificial Idiot and hold its hand regularly, you will have fewer problems with it. Always use signals which can display a caution aspect before an absolute signal and keep distances between signals reasonable. Maybe read a bit about signalling practices in the USA and perhaps elsewhere. Personally, I trained as a signalman before transferring to driving trains and that has given me a grounding in building routes with proper signalling. Even then there are differences to be learned, like signal spacing.
Take the time to learn about the finer aspects (pun intended) of the game before arcing up and demanding N3V fix this or that now. If there is a real problem, other experienced users will be suggesting that the problem needs addressing.

Sorry, just starting my morning coffee. What is SPAD other than a WWI biplane?

Try putting in some advanced/distant signals ahead of your crossovers. The "AI" drivers will see these and slow down and prepare to stop. The alternative is to place the 3-headed (type 08) signals. These will tell the driver to slow down for the crossover.

Using this method, I never have a SPAD on the mainline. I do get them in yards though when signals are placed to closely together.

I forgot to mention before that the placement Type 05 (advance/distant) signals depends upon the speed of your line. If you are running your trains quickly, you are going to need to place the signals a substantial distance from your crossovers or other absolute signals to give the drivers enough time to respond to the upcoming signals.

Look at this video. The train was approaching an approach signal and then AI decided to inexplicably throw that switch causing it to run a red light. That's just plain stupid. There's no excuse for that whatsoever. I didn't do anything to cause that major malfunction.

https://imgur.com/DCLMegR

 

[OddRails]

Sorry, just starting my morning coffee. What is SPAD other than a WWI biplane?

I had to look it up. Somehow "single-photon avalanche diode" didn't fit the discussion. Eventually found the proper info a few entries later.

 

[JCitron]

Look at this video. The train was approaching an approach signal and then AI decided to inexplicably throw that switch causing it to run a red light. That's just plain stupid. There's no excuse for that whatsoever. I didn't do anything to cause that major malfunction.

Put a direction marker facing towards you on the opposite track to prevent the AI from crossing over.

There could also be something wrong with your track there causing the AI to want to switch tracks.

 

[AdvancedApproach]

Put a direction marker facing towards you on the opposite track to prevent the AI from crossing over.

There could also be something wrong with your track there causing the AI to want to switch tracks.

Not gonna happen as the train NEEDS to cross over in order to reach the destination. This doesn't occur on the other end of my route.

 

[pware]

Look at this video.

The video does not answer any of the questions I asked.

 

[JCitron]

Not gonna happen as the train NEEDS to cross over in order to reach the destination. This doesn't occur on the other end of my route

I've made a suggestion that works 100% of the time and the only other possibility is crappy track laying since this only occurs at this location and not the other.

I don't know what fear or adversion to track marks and direction markers but they are extremely helpful in situations such as this. The thing is you don't have to use them liberally but the do help in situations where the AI drivers do stupid thing.

 

[AdvancedApproach]

The video does not answer any of the questions I asked.

Except it does answer your questions. The signal clearly shows an approach (CAUTION) aspect before AI decided to throw the switch when it was aligned for it to crossover as clearly indicated in the video. We all know the end result was the signal going from approach (caution) to stop, triggering SPADD and an emergency brake application requiring a two minute timeout period before restarting schedule.

In this picture, a westbound train is coming down off the hill.

This picture indicates the trains in question are helpers I personally decoupled from the consist.

Prior to the type 6 signal, a type 4 15ft searchlight signal was indicating a clear block for the westbound coal train. The speed limits on this route are 50 mph for the grades and hills. In the towns are 60 mph.

 

[AdvancedApproach]

I've made a suggestion that works 100% of the time and the only other possibility is crappy track laying since this only occurs at this location and not the other.

I don't know what fear or adversion to track marks and direction markers but they are extremely helpful in situations such as this. The thing is you don't have to use them liberally but the do help in situations where the AI drivers do stupid thing.

I use direction and track markers all the time. My problem is it shouldn't take that for trains to function properly at said location. I've dumbed the rules down enough to where the idiots should be smart enough to do their job without screwing up.

 

[AdvancedApproach]

I've made a suggestion that works 100% of the time and the only other possibility is crappy track laying since this only occurs at this location and not the other.

I don't know what fear or adversion to track marks and direction markers but they are extremely helpful in situations such as this. The thing is you don't have to use them liberally but the do help in situations where the AI drivers do stupid thing.

Notice how AI properly brought the train to a stop and then realigned the junction before continuing on its journey.

https://imgur.com/iOlRZyh

 

[AdvancedApproach]

@JCitron on the other end of my route without track markers.

 

[pware]

The signal clearly shows an approach (CAUTION) aspect

Not clearly. You assume that everyone else in the world uses and understand the US signal system - they do not. That particular signal display means nothing to me. It does not match any configuration in use here..

I use direction and track markers all the time. My problem is it shouldn't take that for trains to function properly at said location.

Many users assume that the AI is equivalent to a normal human driver with years of road knowledge of that section of track - again that is not the case. The AI only looks ahead to the approaching signal, not to those beyond it. Track markers (with Drive To Trackmark ... and Drive Via Trackmark ... commands) along with track direction and sometimes track priority markers are essential tools in running AI controlled trains - so yes, it does take that for (AI) trains to function properly at any location.

Notice how AI properly brought the train to a stop and then realigned the junction before continuing on its journey.

So something is clearly causing the junction to switch. One possibility here is poor track laying (been there done that myself). The junction looks like it is diverging left but in fact the track is diverging right before swinging back to the left. So the junction is set to the right for a left diverging track,

 

[bolivar]

"You assume that everyone else in the world uses and understand the US signal system"
Happens using UK signals too. Without rhyme or reason. Scratching my head when it does happen. All signals, track direction markers and red markers correctly placed, after inspection.
Trainz AI = Artificial Imbecility.

 

[AdvancedApproach]

Not clearly. You assume that everyone else in the world uses and understand the US signal system - they do not. That particular signal display means nothing to me. It does not match any configuration in use here..

Many users assume that the AI is equivalent to a normal human driver with years of road knowledge of that section of track - again that is not the case. The AI only looks ahead to the approaching signal, not to those beyond it. Track markers (with Drive To Trackmark ... and Drive Via Trackmark ... commands) along with track direction and sometimes track priority markers are essential tools in running AI controlled trains - so yes, it does take that for (AI) trains to function properly at any location.


So something is clearly causing the junction to switch. One possibility here is poor track laying (been there done that myself). The junction looks like it is diverging left but in fact the track is diverging right before swinging back to the left. So the junction is set to the right for a left diverging track,

If it was caused by poor track laying, then this would be a problem at both ends of the route. The approaching signal in my video was approach, which means proceed at a speed not exceeding 30 mph and be prepared to stop short of the next signal.

 

[AdvancedApproach]

@pware also, that's a crossover. I spaced the right to left and left to right crossover tracks 40m apart. It's from left to right and then right to left as shown in the pictures.