Those flickering yellow flowers!

Lataxe

Member
A number of routes I have contain some yellow flower groups that look like (but aren't) - Flower Yellow Spots,<kuid:-25:518> - being almost identical but slightly larger. These yellow flowers can't be selected, replaced or erased in Surveyor so I presume the config file has a value that prevents this.

I vaguely remember reading about these accursed things in the forum, long ago; but can't get the forum search facility to turn up any useful post.

The flowers are rather too blocky and primitive for my taste. They also have the highly annoying habit of flickering in & out of the scene, which flickering also seems to change their position - highly unrealistic.

Does anyone have any idea what the kuid is for these rascals? If I could only find it, I could edit the config file to make them selectable in Surveyor then replace them with a better alternative once and for all. I've searched through the scenery and flora categories using "yellow" and "flower" but no joy.

Thanks in anticipation for any advice.

Lataxe
 
Hi Lataxe,

I haven't seen these bloody things in ages, but I do remember them. Lively little buggers they are! :D

You could try to replace the assets in Surveyor. It's a scenery object, which is a good thing. Drag this into the asset to replace, and find something to replace it with.

John
 
Hi Lataxe,

I haven't seen these bloody things in ages, but I do remember them. Lively little buggers they are! :D

You could try to replace the assets in Surveyor. It's a scenery object, which is a good thing. Drag this into the asset to replace, and find something to replace it with.

John

Mr C,

Unfortunately the thing can't be selected or erased in Surveyor. I understand that this is because there'll be a value set in it's config file that prevents this, like there is with the Auran speedtree groups (which I have fixed to be selectable). Changing values in this bit of the config file does the trick:

privileges
{
permit-commit 1
permit-edit 0
permit-listing 1
}

I can't discover the kuid or name of this flickering yellow peril otherwise I'd go into CM to edit the config file so it can be selected/replaced in Surveyor. I needs that kuid number! :-)

Lataxe
 
If you want, edit the asset in Content Manager and ignore the message regarding it being built-in. Do the replacement thing in Surveyor once it appears, and then revert it afterwards if you want.

Mine don't have that privileges container. It's a simple config file and very typical of a 1.3 asset.

username "Flower_Yellow_Spots"
kind "scenery"
kuid <kuid:-25:518>
obsolete-table
{
0 <kuid:-1:589>
}
region "Britain"
type "Foliage"
username-de "Blumen_Gelb_fleckig"
username-pl "kwiaty_żółte_kępy"
username-cn "花_黃_點"
username-fr "Fleur_jaune_touffes"
username-nl "Flower_Yellow_Spots"
username-cz "květina_skvrnitá"
username-es "Flor_Amarilla_Matas"
username-it "Fiori_a gruppi"
asset-filename "flower_yspots"
username-hu "Flower_Yellow_Spots"
username-jp "花_黄_斑点"
kuid-table
{
}
 
Mr C,

Although the flickering yellow pest looks very like Flower Yellow Spots, it isn't that item since I can place and erase Flower Yellow Spots in Surveyor but not the flippin' flickering item. No, it appears to be another item but I'm#*%~#* if I can find it in CM so I can make it selectable and therefore replaceable, via an edit of the config file.

If anyone can recall the name or kuid of this yellow weed, I will be very grateful.

Lataxe
 
You might already have done this but just in case you have not, can you hone in on it by just listing the dependencies of the route including the asset then sorting on type and going through the textures-environmental then scenery.
 
Mr. Lataxe,

There's one more item that also has yellow flowers as you describe them.

This is a texture; a built-in texture which dates back to the early days as well. You can do the replace assets with this and it will remove it. I can' remember the name though; it's been quite some time since I ran across it because I've gone for years avoiding it like the plague. :)

John
 
You might already have done this but just in case you have not, can you hone in on it by just listing the dependencies of the route including the asset then sorting on type and going through the textures-environmental then scenery.

Mr 8 (and Mr C),

Success! I did as you suggested and confined the search to assets that are built-in (built-in = true) on the assumption that these flickering yellow rascals would be supplied by Auran. Using "built-in = true" as an additional search criterion reduced the list of scenery (and later, texture) items to far less than the list of all scenery (or texture) items for the route, which is an enormous amalgam of half a dozen or more British routes that probably has every scenery & texture item going in it! (Well, not quite). :-)

The next step was to examine the config files of those items with likely names. There were only half a dozen that had either the "permit" values set or (another discovery) a "secret" value set. The "secret" value seems to be used in some very early built-in items, judging by their build number.

The offending "scenery" item turned out to be: shrub,<kuid:-3:589>

It's config file lists as:

username "shrub"
kind "scenery"
kuid <kuid:-3:589>
region "test"
secret 0
type "Foliage"
username-de "Gebüsch"
username-pl "krzak"
username-cn "??"
username-fr "Arbuste"
username-nl "shrub"
username-es "matorral"
username-it "arbusto"
asset-filename "shrub"
username-hu "cserje"
username-cz "ker"
kuid-table
{
}

If I set the "secret" value to 1 instead of 0, this allows the item to be moved and/or deleted in Surveyor. (The value 0 prevents movement and/or deletion). However, the items still can't be found in the Surveyor list by clicking on it with the find tool. I didn't experiment further, but perhaps setting the value to 2 or higher for "secret" might allow the item to be listed in Surveyor as well as moved/deleted.....?

But the easiest solution was just to remove the line "secret 0" from the config file. I could then find and replace the item in Surveyor, as well as move or delete it.

******

A second search on textures eventually found: shrub grnd,<kuid:-25:181>

This too contains the flickering yellow flowers but has no "permit" or "secret" vales set in the config file so it can be found in Surveyor and replaced with another texture without the flippin' flickerin' flowers in it. Huzzah!
Hopefully this info will be of use to others who have been driven mad by these yellow perils.....

Lataxe
 
I can find no mention of the tag "secret" in that rabbit warren we call the Trainz Wiki. Perhaps it was an old tag that has been replaced by the various "permit" tags now used in the Privileges container. However, in AssetX at least, the secret tag behaves as a Boolean variable, meaning it can only have values of 0 or 1. These correspond to "off/on" or "no/yes" according to convention.

It therefore struck me as odd that you could switch it off by changing its value from 0 to 1 because that's the exact opposite of the convention. When I checked my own copy of Shrub <kuid:-3:589>, I found the secret tag in fact had a value of 1, not zero, which explains its behaviour. Asset <kuid:-25:795> which obsoletes <kuid:-3:589>, also has secret set at 1, so I'm pretty sure it's 1 not zero in these assets. Is it possible you could have got the 1 and 0 confused? In any case, deleting a Boolean tag is usually equivalent to giving it a zero value, eliminating its effect, and that's what you found.

As to the flickering, I suspect it's another example of "texture fighting" caused by semi-transparent (blended alpha) textures being used on intersecting planes (classic "billboard" type vegetation asset). Trainz can't decide which plane should be in front of the other, so it flicks between them.

You might be able to reduce the flickering by telling Trainz to treat the texture as a "masked" instead of "blended" alpha;

Open the Shrub asset(s) for edit.
Find and open the file "flowers_yspots-flowers_yspots.texture.txt" in Notepad.
Change the line "AlphaHint=semitransparent" to "AlphaHint=masked".
Save the file and commit the asset(s).

This will change the appearance, but you would need to check how it looks in Surveyor to make sure it's acceptable.

The groundtexture "Shrub_grnd" has no alpha textures of its own, so it cannot cause the flickering, but it does call on the "Shrub" asset as a dependency to make a clutter mesh. If you manage to fix the flickering in the Shrub, it should also fix it in the ground texture/clutter mesh asset.


.
 
Last edited:
I can find no mention of the tag "secret" in that rabbit warren we call the Trainz Wiki. Perhaps it was an old tag that has been replaced by the various "permit" tags now used in the Privileges container. However, in AssetX at least, the secret tag behaves as a Boolean variable, meaning it can only have values of 0 or 1. These correspond to "off/on" or "no/yes" according to convention.

It therefore struck me as odd that you could switch it off by changing its value from 0 to 1 because that's the exact opposite of the convention. When I checked my own copy of Shrub <kuid:-3:589>, I found the secret tag in fact had a value of 1, not zero, which explains its behaviour. Asset <kuid:-25:795> which obsoletes <kuid:-3:589>, also has secret set at 1, so I'm pretty sure it's 1 not zero in these assets. Is it possible you could have got the 1 and 0 confused? In any case, deleting a Boolean tag is usually equivalent to giving it a zero value, eliminating its effect, and that's what you found.

As to the flickering, I suspect it's another example of "texture fighting" caused by semi-transparent (blended alpha) textures being used on intersecting planes (classic "billboard" type vegetation asset). Trainz can't decide which plane should be in front of the other, so it flicks between them.

You might be able to reduce the flickering by telling Trainz to treat the texture as a "masked" instead of "blended" alpha;

Open the Shrub asset(s) for edit.
Find and open the file "flowers_yspots-flowers_yspots.texture.txt" in Notepad.
Change the line "AlphaHint=semitransparent" to "AlphaHint=masked".
Save the file and commit the asset(s).

This will change the appearance, but you would need to check how it looks in Surveyor to make sure it's acceptable.

The groundtexture "Shrub_grnd" has no alpha textures of its own, so it cannot cause the flickering, but it does call on the "Shrub" asset as a dependency to make a clutter mesh. If you manage to fix the flickering in the Shrub, it should also fix it in the ground texture/clutter mesh asset.


.

Mr R,

I'll check that Boolean value for "secret" in die course. It's entirely possible I've got the effects of the 0 & 1 mixed up after playing about with the config file then the item in Surveyor.

I'll also try your suggested technique for preventing the flicker. I still wouldn't use the yellow flower as I don't really like obvious billboard items of flora; but I'm now wondering if I can somehow get a better-looking 3D item, such as a grass, into the texture file. I've often thought that texture files containing 3D grass would be a very useful thing - if the 3D item will conform to a bumpy landscape rather than hovering the 3D bits in the air or otherwise forcing them into a flat plane.

It's collie-walk time just now so I'll report back later.

Lataxe
 
I can find no mention of the tag "secret" in that rabbit warren we call the Trainz Wiki. Perhaps it was an old tag that has been replaced by the various "permit" tags now used in the Privileges container. However, in AssetX at least, the secret tag behaves as a Boolean variable, meaning it can only have values of 0 or 1. These correspond to "off/on" or "no/yes" according to convention.

It therefore struck me as odd that you could switch it off by changing its value from 0 to 1 because that's the exact opposite of the convention. When I checked my own copy of Shrub <kuid:-3:589>, I found the secret tag in fact had a value of 1, not zero, which explains its behaviour. Asset <kuid:-25:795> which obsoletes <kuid:-3:589>, also has secret set at 1, so I'm pretty sure it's 1 not zero in these assets. Is it possible you could have got the 1 and 0 confused? In any case, deleting a Boolean tag is usually equivalent to giving it a zero value, eliminating its effect, and that's what you found.

As to the flickering, I suspect it's another example of "texture fighting" caused by semi-transparent (blended alpha) textures being used on intersecting planes (classic "billboard" type vegetation asset). Trainz can't decide which plane should be in front of the other, so it flicks between them.

You might be able to reduce the flickering by telling Trainz to treat the texture as a "masked" instead of "blended" alpha;

Open the Shrub asset(s) for edit.
Find and open the file "flowers_yspots-flowers_yspots.texture.txt" in Notepad.
Change the line "AlphaHint=semitransparent" to "AlphaHint=masked".
Save the file and commit the asset(s).

This will change the appearance, but you would need to check how it looks in Surveyor to make sure it's acceptable.

The groundtexture "Shrub_grnd" has no alpha textures of its own, so it cannot cause the flickering, but it does call on the "Shrub" asset as a dependency to make a clutter mesh. If you manage to fix the flickering in the Shrub, it should also fix it in the ground texture/clutter mesh asset.


.

Mr R,

You were right about the "secret" value. 0 allows the item to be moved & deleted whilst 1 prevents those actions. Removing the "secret" line altogether from the config file allows the item to be moved, deleted or replaced.

The ground texture (shrub grnd,<kuid:-25:181>) containing the same yellow flower (which appears to be Flower Yellow Spots,<kuid:-25:518 albeit referenced via the scenery item shrub,<kuid:-3:589>) doesn't have the values you mention, in the "flowers_yspots-flowers_yspots.texture.txt" file. This txt file contains only the lines:

Primary=flowers_yspots.tga
Alpha=flowers_yspots.bmp
Tile=st

(Those referenced image files are contained in the folder with the config file).

I cloned the "shrub, grnd" groundtexture item and substituted a JVC grass scenery item for the flower-yellow-spots item, so see if this would work. It does - painting the texture on a bumpy landscape in Surveyor gives the texture with 3D grasses, instead of yellow flowers, scattered throughout and conformant to the bumps of the landscape. However, the same flickering problem persists.

The 3D items painted when the texture is painted will disappear altogether as you pull the viewpoint back, away from the area in which the texture is painted. You don't have to pull back very far for the 3D items to disappear (and re-appear when the viewpoint is once more moved closer).

In addition, moving the viewpoint about with the 3D items still visible causes them to jump about - as though they had been suddenly pulled into the ground only to instantaneously pop up again in different positions.

If I paint the 3D item as a single item from the scenery menu, rather than en-masse with the texture, from the texture menu, moving the viewpoint doesn't cause the 3D item to flicker in and out of existence, not change it's position. Therefore I conclude that the flickering is something to do with the way the texture references the 3D item, causing some sort of re-drawing of the 3D items as the viewpoint alters.

The shrub,grnd config file looks like this:

kind "groundtexture"
region "Australia"
obsolete-table
{
0 <kuid:-3:100310>
}
clutter-mesh <kuid:-3:589>
asset-filename "shrub_grnd"
username-cz "ker_zemní"
username-hu "shrub_grnd"
username-pl "krzew_podloze"
username-it "arbusti_terreno"
username-nl "shrub_grnd"
username-es "arbusto_suelo"
username-fr "Terre_buissoneuse"
username-jp "??_grnd"
username-de "shrub_grnd"
kuid-table
{
0 <kuid:-3:589>
}
kuid <kuid:-25:181>


Altering the referenced kuid for "clutter mesh" (in the original file or in a clone of it) allows different 3D items such as that JVC grass to be substituted for the yellow flower. But I presume something about the way the clutter mesh works is the cause of the above-described flickering ......................?

Any further suggestions for stopping the flickering will be gratefully received! :-) I would like to make textures containing landscape-conforming grasses and other 3D items. But not with the flicker in and out of the scene, as though they were holograms rendered by a faulty projector.

Lataxe
 
We might be talking about 2 different types of "flickering".

One is the texture fighting effect I mentioned before and it can happen whenever 2 planes with semi-transparent texture are in close proximity with one plane standing in front of the other. If you see this with the Kind scenery shrub or grass then texture fighting is probably the cause. Adding the line "AlphaHint=masked" to the .texture.txt file (if it's not there already) may help reduce texture fighting.

Better still would be to convert the alpha part of the texture from blended to masked. You can do that by repeatedly maximizing the contrast of the alpha image until it only has pure black and pure white pixels, and absolutely no gray pixels. For our beloved Shrub asset, the alpha image is flowers_yspots.bmp

The other type of flickering that you might be seeing is just the normal behaviour of clutter mesh groundtextures. They are deliberately programmed to display or cull the clutter (in this case, shrubs or grass) at a certain radius from the view point. So as you move about in the scene, a circle of clutter mesh appears to follow you around like paparazzi around a movie star. I don't think there's any way to adjust that radius or to make it gradually reduce the density of visible clutter with distance. It's quite unrealistic and I hate clutter mesh groundtextures for that reason.

I guess the worst case would be if a texture-fighting shrub was used as the mesh object in a clutter mesh texture, where you get both types of flickering.

~ Deane
 
The [] type of flickering that you might be seeing is just the normal behaviour of clutter mesh groundtextures. They are deliberately programmed to display or cull the clutter (in this case, shrubs or grass) at a certain radius from the view point. So as you move about in the scene, a circle of clutter mesh appears to follow you around like paparazzi around a movie star. I don't think there's any way to adjust that radius or to make it gradually reduce the density of visible clutter with distance. It's quite unrealistic and I hate clutter mesh groundtextures for that reason.

~ Deane

Mr R,

Yes, the flickering in these ground textures with 3D parts such as flowers, rocks, trees and grass-tufts seems to be due to the inherent nature of the clutter-mesh mechanism. It seems to be an early Trainz feature that's not been developed - although perhaps T:ANE will have something similar without the flicker.......? It does seem a very useful idea, especially for trackside/trackbed textures where the presence of rocks, gravel, grasses, weeds or even shrubs that are 3D makes a big difference to the real-feel of a route as one drives about.

I went digging and found a number of ground textures (environmental) with clutter-mesh by author dmdrake. They all have the same flicker problem though; and some also use groups of 3D items for the clutter, which fail to conform well to anything but a flat landscape. Some of the 3D items are also rather old-fashioned too - not surprising given their era. We've been spoilt a bit by more modern stuff, especially the speedtreez (although some seem to dislike them too).

Anyway, I'll be doing a search for routes dependent on any clutter-mesh ground textures then swapping them out for something similar without a clutter-mesh. The flicker drives me mad! I suppose the clutter-mesh is just a buried bit of Trainz code inaccessible to we tinkerers. I would dearly like to have such a mechanism without the limitations.

Lataxe
 
Back
Top