The make up of a UK train

[AntonyVW]

Ok so you have your UK loco followed by x number of coaches. I have discovered what the lettering means (ie ck is composite corridor) but I have no idea in which order these coaches would appear for a typical 3+ coach train. My question is what coaches make up a typical train and in what order are the coaches normally put? Can anyone enlighten me please? Thank you.

 

[mezzoprezzo]

I suspect it will depend on the era and the line.

Here are some which ran north of the border.

 

[AntonyVW]

Hey thats great. Time period is fine and the details I suspect would be similar elsewhere.

 

[dnevans8]

Details for the London Midland Region can be found here:

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/mostyn/nwcm1977.pdf

 

[Vern]

Generally on lines going to/from London the first class would be marshalled at the London end (closer to the buffers for the ticket barrier, tube etc) with a dining car separating that and the second class.

However even that wasn't gospel as the 12 coach Mark One set used on the Master Cobbler Northampton - Euston commuter service in the late 70's/early 80's had an FK and CK in the middle, the rest of the train being TSO's with a BSK on the London end.

However things got more complex where trains ran with portions for different destinations or on Cross Country routes where there was less demand for first class, often a single CK or BCK sufficing.

 

[ray_whiley]

The answer is probably, as usual, that there is a prototype for everything! But it would be very unusual to find a dining car, for example, on a three-coach train as this would typically be a local or branch-line consist. I would not expect a dining car or buffet on less than an eight or nine-coach train. Of course, there may have been exceptions.

If I were making a three-coacher, I would personally use a brake-composite at each end (so that the guard can always be at the rear, to protect the train in an emergency) with a composite in the middle for a branch line.


Now I stand open to correction!

Ray

 

[AntonyVW]

Thanks guys. When I came to this game I never dreamt that I would be asking such questions. But Im glad that my interest is growing beyond the game. Thanks guys.

 

[ray_whiley]

Correction! I should have said a brake-third at each end with the guard's compartment outermost, with a composite in the middle. What I suggested (in error) would have made a three-coach train much too heavy on first class accommodation - especially on a branch line.

Another possibility, of course, is a 'push-pull train' (or 'motor train' in GER-speak) with the loco at one end linked mechanically to a driving compartment in a brake-third at the other end. This enabled trains on short runs to reverse without running round. One example with which I was very familiar was the 'push-pull' linking King's Lynn to the M&GN at South Lynn.

I have assumed, of course, that we are talking of the steam era. In the diesel age, short trains on an otherwise loco-hauled system would be two, three or four-car DMUs.

Ray

 

[AntonyVW]

I guess I should have made it clear but yes I was talking steam era. As a young lad I was around when steam was about to disappear and diesel was more and more often seen on the line that passed by my home. But I do remember one in particular that would pass on a Sunday morning. My dad would set his watch by it as until it was taken over by diesel he always said it was more accurate than his watch. Lol - I remember as the steamer stopped the time slot often was all over the place for a while as it was at that time that all the track was relayed in that area on a Sunday morning. It was fascinating watching those big track layers. But I digress. Nowadays my local station is almost exclusively dmu but we do get the odd steamer as it comes down off from the Severn Valley line on a special. But I have never really paid much attention to the make up of a train until now. I wish I had done so as a trainspotter in my youth.

 

[fen_tiger]

I came across this website page which should help novices in knowing the various codes used in UK passenger coaching stock. The full list of codes and what they describe are towards the middle of that page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_coach_designations

 

[ray_whiley]

Another source is 'Rolling Stock Recognition:1 Coaching Stock' by Colin J Marsden, ISBN 0 7110 1273 3, Ian Allan Ltd, 1983. Price £3.95 when purchased (at about that time), may no longer be in print but should be available from S/H railway book dealers. This includes all codes with details of seating etc. and is well illustrated.

Of course, all these codes apply only to BR stock, and if earlier steam era days are envisaged then as far as I know abbreviations such as 'B3rd' for Brake Third were in normal use at least on the lines I am familiar with, which is certainly not all pre-nationalisation areas.

Ray

 

[fen_tiger]

Ray, have you ever travelled the former railway through Wisbech (Wisbech East Station) from March to King's Lynn before 1968 passenger closure and Demolition of Wisbech East (the site is now a new housing estate)? I've only been able to travel along the March - Wisbech section in July 1984 when we had a special excursion laid on by WAMRAC / RDS - a special one-off train to York & Scarborough.

Andy.

 

[nexusdj]

For the make up of steam hauled trains from the 1950's onwards may I suggest joining the BR coaching stock group on Yahoo groups http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/BRCoachingStock/

They have have a section called "Train workings and Formations" which contains a huge selection of official documents (all available to download with permission from the BR board) issued to show the formations of various trains on every region of BR from the 1950's through to the end of BR in the late 90's .

If you're not a member of yahoo groups http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/ then you'll need to join that first (It's free) then apply for membership to the group and acceptance usually takes about 12 to 24 hours depending on how busy the mods are .

Should you wish to go back further into time then there are separate groups covering all the pre nationalisation companies .

 

[itareus]

Some very useful information and links in this thread. Just to add, most official documents show the "idea" formation of stock whereas in practice due to shortages and failures substitutions were often made, an example being the older PMV replacing a CCT as a parcels vehicle, so up to a point anything goes!

Excuse the slightly off topic question to Andy (fen_tiger) but are you one of the group trying to get the Wisbech line reopened? I live in Doddington (where the March bypass is built on the site of the former railway line).

Chris

 

[fen_tiger]

Hi Chris. Yes, until April this year actually i was one of the members of the Bramleyline Railway Trust trying to restore & re-open the old, disused railway line here in my town Wisbech. Not currently a member of the group but could be re-joining in the near future. the track itself still connected to the main line at Whitemoor Junction, March is now a 7.8 mile single branch (originally double track until 1972 four years after passenger closure and the loss of Wisbech East Station) last saw freight - Spillers Pet foods trains - in summer 2000, but the last 12 years since closure the track has become severly overgrown.

Wisbech has been mentioned in the 2009 ATOC report as one possible new station and refurbished railway line, but nothing more as yet. Wisbech Town Council are talking of buying the lease of the track from Network Rail - who have been asking £20,000. from July 2007 to 2009 I was involved as one of the team working on the railway doing vegetation clearance with hand tools as Network Rail refused us in using power tools or even weed killer spray. Most sundays weather permitting, there's been a small team working on the track at Waldersea (site of the old goods yard there, never was any station there). Waldersea about 3 miles south of Wisbech. I don't know the latest news from the Trust on what is happening track wise or financial until i decide to rejoin again as a member.

www.bramleyline.org.uk

 

[itareus]

fen_tiger,

Thanks for the information, about the most up to date I get these days is reading the "Fenland Citizen" !

...Network Rail refused us in using power tools or even weed killer spray...

Unbelievable, or perhaps not, I should know better after 30 years in the industry dealing with ***** like that !

I vaguely remember allocating locos to the Wisbech trip when I was a locomotive controller at York back in the 1970's, it was never a high priority but if I recall correctly I never had to cancel one !

Cheers

Chris

P.S. Apologies to the OP for wandering off topic again !

 

[ray_whiley]

Andy (fen_tiger) - yes, I have travelled that line, well before 1958! My boyhood family home was in King's Lynn and I recall going along that route to visit relatives at about the age of six. In the 1950's my wife and I lived for a couple of years in Peterborough and I remember waiting for connections on March station. However, this is many years ago and I really couldn't offer any information on Wisbech East as we merely pased through it. Sorry!

To add to my earlier notes, I should have said that it was perhaps more usual in steam days to write the coach classification in full, eg. 'Brake Third.' I know that the Great Western had codes for its goods stock, but not being a GW enthusiast I don't know whether this applied to passenger stock as well. Someone will know!

Best wishes.

Ray

 

[AntonyVW]

Thanks guys for all the useful information. I can see I've got a lot of reading ahead of me. I got sidetracked yesterday while looking at old photos of our local station. I came across some of the workhouse that stood opposite the station. Interesting stuff. Anyway, I know this is off topic, but are there such resources available which would give track elevations for given areas? I was looking at some old maps yesterday which showed the land that had been acquired for the railway but none of them showed the elevations at all.

 

[fen_tiger]

I last walked down part of the Wisbech line a few weeks ago between Weasenham Lane (ex level crossing - as the track across the road was lifted a few years back) and Redmoor Lane LC, near Elm. Near enough impassable near with the dense scrub and trees. Most of the rail chairs have one or two bolts missing, that is, the ones I could see. The A47 LC (only has lights, never had any barriers) is nigh on difficult to cross over with all that heavy traffic to & from Peterborough. Was tempted to trigger the LC lights but rembered that the track circuit that starts near Newbridge Lane, Wisbech (the second LC) to just beyond Redmoor lane LC, (nr Elm) has been ripped out by vandals. Both track circuit power boxes (for the A47 & Redmoor Lane LC's) are intact apart from vandals ripping out the relay switches & battery banks 12 x 12v car batteries used as back up on the mains power supply. Redmoor lane LC used to have half barriers until these was bent & damaged beyond repair a few years ago by a wayward tractor or lorry driver and was taken down.

Waldersea (near the old goods yard), most of the track has been lifted & vandalised by metal theives nicking the rail chairs to make some money for themselves, something that the british transport police know about and are keeping a close eye on. Originally double track from March to Wisbech, the line was singled in 1972 following 1968 passenger closure with the up line into wisbech lifted, the double track formation is still usable even only if for a new passing loop at Coldham (where the old station was there for that village), if a new station was to be built on its predecessor. * Coldham midwat b.tween wisbech & march lost its station in 1966 along with its two-road goods yard.

 

[fen_tiger]

Oh, this is my proposed trainz layout - the route of which will hopefully recreate the real life remaining 7.8 mile line from March to Wisbech and maybe further onto Watlington Jnc (long since vanished since 1969). so far March station is slowing coming together, most of the Whitemoor Jnc and station trackwork is in place, after a few niggles and adjustments due to the colour light sigalling not working properly on the wisbech bay platforms)

Coaching stock is with MK1, Mk2, using these formations on my layout - MK2c stock follows: BSO - TSO - TSOT - TSO - BSO. MK1 stock: BSO - TSO - RFB - TSO - BSO. in real life until 1968 the Wisbech branch saw DMU class 105 in two or four formations, in either BR two-tone green or the newly introduced BR Blue.

Oh, I have a DVD - 'Branches across East Anglia', and one of the short colour films on it, is a train journey from March to Watlington in 1968 aboard a DMU class 105, one of the last trains before the line was closed in september 1968.