That Health and Safety thing... Hi vis.

[pfx]

Watching many videos online, it's interesting to see H&S regulations becoming all the more obvious in more recent years, especially in UK and European videos. Even working on a heritage line I'm obliged to wear a very minimum of a hi vis vest working on locos and trains, and hi vis overalls or equivalent if I'm working on the line.

I notice that in videos of US operations, hi vis seems almost non-existent beyond the odd vest but perhaps some of our US members could say if this is the case or not? It seems at odds when certain safety critical road vehicles are festooned with all manner of lights and road workers are surrounded by flags, signs, lights and hi vis.

My own opinion is that it's a good thing here, especially in less clement weather and I'm always super aware when working around the track, which can often be quite space restricted. Perhaps the US laws are more lenient in this respect as there is far more space? It's not a criticism at all, simply curiosity.

Apologies if it's been discussed before.

 

[BLACKWATCH]

You do have to remember, our "Heritage" lines are more intensive than those in the US, they have been going
for much longer so are more aware of the dangers, plus we have to "cowtow" to the whims of unelected know
nothing idiots in the European parliament, who think we have no brains of our own.

 

[viesturs]

I don't see the need for the hi-vis jackets..
People get run over by trains because they are not careful or don't hear or see the train
A heavy loaded freight train at any speed wouldn't be able to stop even if the driver sees the rail worker
I can only see use for these jackets in the main yards and on railway construction sites where cranes are used..
Even so I can't recall any incidents with a rail worker getting run over by a train. It's always some regular person.
But upping the safety levels regarding regular persons is hard. In my country at least..
There is one station that had a pedestrian crossing in the middle of the platform. During the station's reconstruction the crossing was removed due to safety concerns. But people still cross there. The only difference is that now it is even more dangerous as people can trip on the rails and fall in front of the oncoming train.
And fences don't work.
We should just educate people. And build some more pedestrian crossings.

 

[mezzoprezzo]

I don't see the need for the hi-vis jackets..
..snip..
A heavy loaded freight train at any speed wouldn't be able to stop even if the driver sees the rail worker
..snip

But the driver can sound his horn, and he'll do that a lot quicker on seeing a hi-vis jacket. They can be seen at a much longer distance than regular clothing.

 

[viesturs]

But the driver can sound his horn, and he'll do that a lot quicker on seeing a hi-vis jacket. They can be seen at a much longer distance than regular clothing.

When approaching a work site the train has to sound the horn anyway because there are special signs placed. In the main yards yes - a vest is needed.
The problem is with regular people - they don't have any hi-vis clothes, there are no "whistle" and "caution" signs to the driver, and the persons might be listening to music and sounding the horn might end up having no effect at all.. sad..
Experienced drivers know where people frequently cross the tracks. New drivers don't..

 

[pfx]

Perhaps I was ambiguous in my first post?

I do not want to know if hi vis is right or wrong. Personally, I think it's a good thing. What I do want to know why it doesn't seem to be worn to any great extent on US railroads unless I'm mistaken.

Thanks.

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.

You do have to remember, our "Heritage" lines are more intensive than those in the US, they have been going for much longer so are more aware of the dangers, plus we have to "cowtow" to the whims of unelected know nothing idiots in the European parliament, who think we have no brains of our own.

Blackwatch, with the greatest of respect I feel you should check more thoroughly regarding the information you have posted their.

With regard to health and safety almost all workplace safety is contained within the “health and safety at work act 1974” that act was passed solely by the British Parliament in the foregoing year and is still the supreme legislation covering the responsibility of employers to their workforce in regard to providing safe working conditions. The act also covers the responsibility of workers to themselves and others who may be placed at risk by their actions while carrying out their duties. A railway is a workplace whether a person working there is doing so on a voluntary basis or as a paid employee.

The only European Union regulations which directly affect British workers and others within the union are such directives as the “European working time regulations” or the “European drivers hours regulations” with both directives pertaining to the maximum working time for individual groups of workers

Also in the second part of the above posting you referred to members of the European Parliament as “unelected”. All members of the European Parliament are directly elected by the populations of the individual countries making up the European Union and that parliment. I believe that the European Parliament elections are due to be held again next year when doubtless you will receive the ballot publications nearer the date inviting you to vote.

It is the members of the European commission which many see as unelected as these are made up by what are commonly known as “bureaucrats” who normally place forward recommendations to the Council of ministers and then carry out those recommendations if approved by the Council of ministers. As you may well know the European Council(s) of ministers are made up of individual members of the various governments who are all members of the European Union and therefore they have been elected to government by the populations of the individual countries they represent.

With regard to highly visibility vests, they are just one of any number of factors which since 1974 have reduced accidents in British workplaces by over 80% and that figure has been achieved on the back of overall ever increasing national employment. Anyone who has ever driven a forklift in a busy warehouse or has manoeuvred a 40 ton articulated vehicle in a crowded distribution centre will know the value of hi viz jackets.

As someone who with untold numbers of others has worked in workplace safety since the mid-eighties the above facts and figures are something that we are extremely proud of. The foregoing ensures that thousands of workers go to their places of employment and return home safe and uninjured each day than was the case 30 years ago.

Bill

 

[nikos1]

You probably havn't looked too closely. All US class 1 railroads and most shortlines require crews that are working on the ground to wear high vis vests, often the conductor wears theirs in the cab too if they are going to be getting on and off alot.

 

[pfx]

Thanks Nikos, that's the sort of info I'm after. I'm only going on the videos I've seen which is why I wanted to hear from someone with some 'local knowledge'.

Bill, I already know you're the guru of H&S regarding the UK. The boot of my car is full of high vis, head gear and safety boots!

 

[wholbr]

Hi pfx and everybody.

Thanks Nikos, that's the sort of info I'm after. I'm only going on the videos I've seen which is why I wanted to hear from someone with some 'local knowledge'.

Bill, I already know you're the guru of H&S regarding the UK. The boot of my car is full of high vis, head gear and safety boots!

Pfx please accept my sincere apologies for my posting for I had no intention to disrupt or divert this thread away from the advice you were seeking. In the foregoing, it is just that it seems to me that the level of intelligent debate within this forum has sharply decreased in the last few months. Statements and analogies such as “speeding truck drivers with no brakes” and the “unelected European Parliament” really do send me off on one, and on reading the latter of those two last night the old Dragon NaturallySpeaking software Really went into overdrive.

With regard to your enquiry into the wearing of high visibility vests in the United States I am certainly no expert on safety legislation in the US. However, I believe that the individual states have various levels of legislation applicable to that state though I could be wrong in that statement.

I also think there is very much a cultural difference between Britain and the United States based on lengths our industrial histories in the two countries. From what us Europeans see and read in the media it would seem that safety measures such as the wearing high visibility jackets in Collision risk areas of a workplace is steadily gaining ground but as you state pfx the overall level of take-up is difficult to gauge from the side of the pond.

Bill

 

[JCitron]

Bill and everyone,

It's not so much of a cultural difference, it's more I think of the ideas of independence from regulations and sometimes safety concerns are at the bottom end of concern. If it wasn't for our two more recent government agencies, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), and Occupational Health and Safety Administration (OSHA), companies would have full reign on how things are done which push issues. The NTSB is an independent oversight board that investigates accidents and makes recommendations to the various other transportation-related government agencies such as the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA). The FRA now mandates that employees wear high-vis apparel.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=72934

John

 

[JohnnyC1]

Most of the pictures I see of RR workers, they have hi-vis safety vests on. Some of the short lines may be skirting the issue.

John

 

[KingConrail76]

Thanks Nikos, that's the sort of info I'm after. I'm only going on the videos I've seen which is why I wanted to hear from someone with some 'local knowledge'.

Bill, I already know you're the guru of H&S regarding the UK. The boot of my car is full of high vis, head gear and safety boots!

Many of the videos on YouTube are from many years ago, before current regulations were in affect. Post "9/11", railroad videography has been under much scrutiny here in the states...Many times "9/11" is just used as an excuse to keep people away from the tracks though, and the real reason is due to "liability" issues (personal injury law suits) or the crew just not wanting to be bothered with "kids with cameras" following them around work.

 

[JCitron]

Many of the videos on YouTube are from many years ago, before current regulations were in affect. Post "9/11", railroad videography has been under much scrutiny here in the states...Many times "9/11" is just used as an excuse to keep people away from the tracks though, and the real reason is due to "liability" issues (personal injury law suits) or the crew just not wanting to be bothered with "kids with cameras" following them around work.

It's sad that the rail fans themselves have caused much of the angst amongst the railroad professionals. If you've ever read some of the posts at Railroad.net and Yardlimits.com you'll see what I mean. There are cases where rail fans take it upon themselves to march right on to private property and operate equipment because they are experts on the operations. Many of these 'bad' rail fans I think are a bit on the extreme OCD side and probably never could get a job in the rail industry due to other emotional or even psychological issues. Sadly though because these people do things like this the rest of us casual train watchers are lumped into the same group.

And sure. 9/11 is a good excuse to keep people away. It's a lot easier to use that excuse than it is to explain to some numb-head that he's being a total idiot twit around the railroad.

John

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.

It's sad that the rail fans themselves have caused much of the angst amongst the railroad professionals. If you've ever read some of the posts at Railroad.net and Yardlimits.com you'll see what I mean. There are cases where rail fans take it upon themselves to march right on to private property and operate equipment because they are experts on the operations. Many of these 'bad' rail fans I think are a bit on the extreme OCD side and probably never could get a job in the rail industry due to other emotional or even psychological issues. Sadly though because these people do things like this the rest of us casual train watchers are lumped into the same group.

And sure. 9/11 is a good excuse to keep people away. It's a lot easier to use that excuse than it is to explain to some numb-head that he's being a total idiot twit around the railroad.John

I am afraid it is the same here in the UK where a minority of rail fans have made things bad for everyone. There are several videos on YouTube of British rail fans arguing and abusing station staff when they have been requested to stop photographing signalling equipment etc due to security restrictions.

Since the7/7 bombings of the London underground no one on any railway station can be unaware of the security restrictions on leaving luggage etc unattended and the transport police will hold an on the spot “interview” with anyone they suspect of photographing railway equipment or station layout.

On Paddington station about 18 months ago a member of the British transport police spoke to me when I left my overnight bag on the concourse and moved no more than 4 feet from it to get a cup of coffee. The police officer was very polite and just asked me if it was my bag and when I replied yes, he just reminded me to keep it with me at all times. Of course in those situations you always seem to get someone wants to abuse the police officer and sadly that often seems to be rail fans.

On virtually all large and terminus railway stations you cannot now get onto the platforms unless you have a ticket to travel. The old “platform tickets” which allowed people to go onto the platforms and meet rail passengers from trains or say goodbye are no longer available, so rail fans cannot even enter many stations these days unless they are travelling.

I find all the above rather sad as many years ago in my adolescent teenage days when the whole British rail network was steam powered I always had a fantasy of kissing some gorgeous girl goodbye on a sooty, smokey, steam hissing railway station as they used to do in the old Hollywood films. I look back with great regret that it never happened then and certainly will not happen now even to the sound of a thudding diesel as the platform tickets are gone.

Not to mention the fact that any attractive girl kissing me goodbye on a station at my age would undoubtedly see the departure of me long before the train left


Bill

 

[BLACKWATCH]

On virtually all large and terminus railway stations you cannot now get onto the platforms unless you have a ticket to travel.

I recently visited London for a few days & had no problems accessing the platforms at Victoria, Paddington & Euston.
This was without travel tickets, all I did was visit the Railtrack office at each station & ask for permission. I was asked for
what purpose, when I explained that Photographing the railway and trains was a hobby, they granted me access, at
Euston, they took my photo & gave me a photo pass, the staff treated me like royalty, all I had to do was show the
pass to the staff on the barriers & they opened them with a smile.

It seems that as long as you ask permission & behave, you will still be welcome.

 

[JohnnyC1]

You will be surprised how many doors will open for you if you ask for permission on don't assume that you have the right just because. Do the right thing!

John

 

[mezzoprezzo]

~snip~ at Euston, they took my photo & gave me a photo pass, the staff treated me like royalty, all I had to do was show the pass to the staff on the barriers & they opened them with a smile. ~snip~

I bet they did.

As a Yorkshireman you’ll know that, “You don’t get owt fer nowt”.

I reckon before you left their office your image had been scanned and vetted by GCHQ and the NSA, probably checked against your internet browsing habits and telephone records, and every CCTV camera you passed was possibly also doing the same.

Smile please!

 

[viesturs]

I'm starting to appreciate our stations... With 3 exceptions, everybody can get on the platforms, usually no CCTV and fences.

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.

I recently visited London for a few days & had no problems accessing the platforms at Victoria, Paddington & Euston.
This was without travel tickets, all I did was visit the Railtrack office at each station & ask for permission. I was asked for what purpose, when I explained that Photographing the railway and trains was a hobby, they granted me access, at Euston, they took my photo & gave me a photo pass, the staff treated me like royalty, all I had to do was show the pass to the staff on the barriers & they opened them with a smile.
It seems that as long as you ask permission & behave, you will still be welcome.

I have been doing a bit of investigation into this one following what blackwatch posted regarding his experiences in the London terminus stations. Network Rail are the government agency that took over from Railtrack in 2001 following the bankruptcy of the former (effectively re-nationalising the whole track network). They advise on their website that platform tickets are still available from ticket booths at large stations.

The problem for network rail in making that statement would be that they do not actually own or operate any of the stations they are referring to. The stations are operated by the predominant train operating company on any route or line. As an example, first great Western operate all the stations on the great Western main line which runs throughout the south-west of England. It therefore falls to the train operating companies such as first great Western whether they wish to allow platform tickets or any other passes to be issued at their stations.

I then visited a British passenger rail forum website I sometimes post on and searched for “availability of platform tickets” it seems it is a very mixed picture regarding the availability of these tickets dependent upon the station and operator. In general the train operators do not wish to issue platform tickets because they are aware that some individuals will then board trains without paying the full travelling fare.

That stated, at other stations the operators have come under pressure from retailers who have outlets in the stations to allow non-travelling members of the public onto the platforms and thereby purchase from their outlets. From all I could gather (and as a general rule of thumb) whether you are able to buy a platform ticket or not relies very much on the layout of the station. If all the retail outlets are on a concourse prior to reaching the actual platforms then platform tickets are not generally available. If however there are a substantial number of retail outlets actually on the platforms then very often platform tickets are available. However, it must be said there was much debate on the passenger website I visited and there seems to be no one size fits all.

When it came to rail fans taking photographs at stations the subject seems to be even more complicated. Network rail on their website, state that they welcome rail enthusiasts to stations, but they must not photograph equipment that would have a sensitive security status such as (believe it or not) CCTV cameras, LOL. The problem for Network Rail in making that statement would be once again the fact that they do not actually operate the stations. Therefore what individual station operators or the British transport police view as sensitive to security would be very much in the eye of the beholder. So there is one for debate.

I would not class myself as a railfan or rail photographer but rather as an extensive rail traveller over the last decade or so, but I thought the above information could be of benefit to British rail fans and the growing army of overseas rail fans who visit Britain to see and travel on the rail network.

Bill