Terminus Operations with the AI

M

Mick_Berg

New member
Hi.
My humble six-mile branch line route is growing into a monster, with the addition of Kings Cross Terminus. It really is a bigger challenge than I am capable of. I tried to incorporate the Kings Cross from ECML South, but it was based post-1970, when it was all rationalised and cleaned up, as all the new trains had cabs at each end, and all the manoeuvring of locomotives was no longer needed. MSTS Hertford Loop is the same way. I'm trying to do all the uncoupling and shunting that was needed in steam days. I've tried to do just one train, using trackmarks and triggers, but can't even get that to work. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I also have a prototypical question - a slow train comes in on the up slow line, that is on the "left" side of six tracks. When it leaves the station, it has to cross all the lines, including the express up and down lines, to get to the slow down line on the "right" side. Is that really how they did it?
Thanks,
Mick Berg.
 
you need to do a few tricks for steam at a terminus. First your arriving train needs to unload and then uncouple. Place a named trackmark at exit of station track and get second engine to couple at that trackmark. You need to make sure that the second engine has no signals between it and the consist to be coupled. You can use the post message and wait for message and clear commands.

Train A approaching station
drive to station
unload
uncouple
post message (driver, 1)
drive to trackmark spur

Train B waiting at spur trackmark
wait for message and clear (driver, 1)
couple at trackmark station
load
drive to next station
Train A will move a short time after towards the spur use train B commands and it will be ready for the next train
 
Hi Mick,

A starter for 10 on the AI issue (while it's fresh in my mind)..... I have spent untold hours trying to get the AI and signalling for a UK 4 platform terminus with double track approach to work correctly and look prototypical. The problem was that I could get the "Call at" command ("Drive to" command for AJS stations) to work easily enogh and I could get the "Couple" or "Couple at Trackmark" commands to work for shunting OK but not both with the same combination of signals!

*****

The solution, just discovered, was as follows:

... Approach track ...
Theatre Signal (in my case).
... Junction Pointwork ...
>>> and after the final point into each plaform the following (for each platform) <<<
Signal target
Track Mark for use by the "Couple at Trackmark" command.
Invisible signal ("Signal Invisible" - a green board with red S). *** it's this and its position that is the key ***
Platform starter signal (prototypical).
... Start of platform ...
>>> and towards the buffer stop end of the platform on invisible track <<<
Trackmark (used to "draw forward" the uncoupled loco).
Invisible signal

N.B. Buffer stops wll be "Dummys" (i.e. not active end of track markers) on the end of the visible track.

**

Bit difficult to describe without a diagram, if it's as clear as mud just ask!

******

There are some good, general background, tips on AI etc. here:

http://trains.0catch.com/tutorial.html

And a TC3 - TS09 signalling guide here:

http://www.trainzclassics.co.uk/

And for prototype signalling info a couple more sites....

http://www.signalbox.org/signals.shtml

http://www.railsigns.co.uk/

******

Re your prototype question, flat junctions on multiple track are, and always have been, bad news for railway operators. Trouble was that as railways expanded they just happened! If you look at the ECML(S) as an example some flyover junctions were built to try and alleviate the problem. Where this was not possible, or affordable, crossing moves were avoided (especially at peak times) by using platforms on the "right" (i.e. correct side) of the station to avoid crossing moves. This statement is a bit of a generalisation!

**

A question for you - what was the signalling at KX for the period you are building - Colour Lights, Semaphore or mixed?

**

I'll post again if I think of anything else (memory failing - old age), but if you have any specific questions just post and if I have a clue I'll try and answer them.

Cheers

Chris
 
Stagecoach,

You posted while I was writing mine and at first glance we appear to contradict each other but actually I think we are along the same lines, it's the fact that you say:

stagecoach said:
.....no signals between it and the consist to be coupled.....
Click to expand...

If I'm reading you correctly this is exactly the problem I had, in that (in my case) locos are coming off shed through a number of signals before making the coupling moves and I need the signals for prototypical reasons.

stagecoach said:
.....You can use the post message and wait for message and clear commands....
Click to expand...

I have not tried these - will give them a go - thanks.

Could be an entertaining thread!

Chris
 
Thanks guys, there's a lot of info to digest here. The signalling will be semaphore, as I'm not being too strict about anachronisms and I like the semaphores.
Re your prototype question, flat junctions on multiple track are, and always have been, bad news for railway operators. Trouble was that as railways expanded they just happened! If you look at the ECML(S) as an example some flyover junctions were built to try and alleviate the problem. Where this was not possible, or affordable, crossing moves were avoided (especially at peak times) by using platforms on the "right" (i.e. correct side) of the station to avoid crossing moves. This statement is a bit of a generalisation!
Click to expand...
This was certainly done in some cases, but I think crossing all the lines would be unavoidable in others. The only flyover in the period that I am looking at was a few miles down the track and served to get "up" goods trains into the goods depot on the other side of the tracks.

I have two challenges here, knowing how things were done, and then getting Trainz to do those things!
Could be an entertaining thread!
Click to expand...
Absolutely, keep those answers coming!

Help so far much appreciated,
Mick Berg.
 
Last edited:
Mick,

I omitted an important point from my initial post (it was late at night here). In my view getting the signalling right is key to getting the AI to work. So it's either "no signalling" and let the AI sort itself out on a junction to junction basis or it's prototype signalling (maybe with some compromises) plus added invisible signals to tweak the AI. This should explain all the references to signalling in my post!

With regard to semaphore signalling. You may have a problem getting prototypical (Ex LNER) signals, as far as I know there are few (if any) in Trainz. There are a good number of ex LMS signals and this range is currently being extended - these are upper quadrant so would be OK at a pinch (although the purists will make noises). The other large range of semaphore signals for Trainz are BR(W) and follow GWR practice i.e. lower quadrant - signalling purist would scream the house down if these appeared at Kings Cross!

Flat junctions - yes in some circumstances crossing all lines on a flat junction is unavoidable but civil engineers, train planners and "on the day" operators will try and avoid this where possible as they inevitable restrict capacity and lead to delays. One, simple to explain, example of how this can be avoided is London Liverpool St station (6 track approach) . This is in effect 3 stations, the west side platforms serves suburban trains to the west of Anglia - in the general direction of Cambridge, the middle platforms are for all main line trains and the east side platforms are for suburban services to the east of Anglia - in the general direction of Norwich. This might not be the most convenient arrangement for commuters (some of the west side and east side routes are "interchangeable" for journey purposes) but the station would not function without this arrangement. Again this is a generalisation to keep it brief.

A further question for you: Are you using the AI to operate "fixed" scenarios (i.e. following a rigid plan) which runs with little or no intervention or just to do part of the driving work while you control the station and approaches?

Cheers

Chris
 
The reason i said no signals is that the commands to couple dont seem to have the ability to ignore the red signal that shows a consist ahead of it unlike the run around command which will allow the train to pass one red signal before it recouples. It could be possible to use the path rule if given to the arriving train set from the station to the spur and select the last signal approaching the station to show caution. This would allow the new engine to pass it and couple.
 
Hi Mick

If all the advice given above fails to do what you want it to do could I suggest the SCS2006 rule. I create scenarios for AI only using the above rule and have no problems operating steam era terminii. There is a command in SCS2006 which allows you to set a signal state so I can force the signal guarding the platform approach to amber or green and then issue an AI couple command and the loco will pass the signal and couple to the rear of the train. I then set the signal back to automatic using the same set signal command.

Using this rule along with aditional trackmarks and invisible signals has been the only way that I have been able to consistently operate to a timetable around Carlisle on the S&C route in TC3. The ordinary AI often gets confused and this can play havoc with the many interacting train movements.

The downside of SCS2006 is the learning curve but I made myself persevere with it as it seemed to be the only way to get the repeatable AI behaviour that I needed. It works with TC3 and TS2009 as well as TRS2006.

Regards

Brian
 
Path rule wont work, just checked it out. What i have found that will work is to place a trigger just before the last signal into the platform and use the switch signal rule as a child. You need to name the signal and set it to caution in the rule and you also need to select the nearest junction to the station to read the direction set into the platform. This will allow the new engine to pass the last signal into the platform and couple.
 
A further question for you: Are you using the AI to operate "fixed" scenarios (i.e. following a rigid plan) which runs with little or no intervention or just to do part of the driving work while you control the station and approaches?
Cheers
Chris
Click to expand...
My goal is a completely "hands off" operation. Although that seems impossible, as the AI can never handle every situation, it seems.
Hi Mick
If all the advice given above fails to do what you want it to do could I suggest the SCS2006 rule. I create scenarios for AI only using the above rule and have no problems operating steam era terminii
Click to expand...
I've thought about investigating SCS but it is a bit daunting. But I might well give it a go.
With regard to semaphore signalling. You may have a problem getting prototypical (Ex LNER) signals, as far as I know there are few (if any) in Trainz.
Click to expand...
I'm happy to use Bloodnok's TC3 signals.
One, simple to explain, example of how this can be avoided is London Liverpool St station (6 track approach) . This is in effect 3 stations, the west side platforms serves suburban trains to the west of Anglia - in the general direction of Cambridge, the middle platforms are for all main line trains and the east side platforms are for suburban services to the east of Anglia - in the general direction of Norwich.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure that the 6 approaching tracks at Kings Cross were arranged as two slow lines up, one fast up, one fast down, two slow down. That's pre-1970. If I'm wrong, someone please let me know now!!:eek:
Thanks everyone,
Mick Berg.
 
Hi Mick,

Mick_Berg said:
....My goal is a completely "hands off" operation....
....I've thought about investigating SCS but it is a bit daunting....
Click to expand...

I think SCS might well be the way for you to go. I't does not suit my purposes because I want "mixed" operations with the AI performing specific tasks that I assign (mostly during the running of a session) so I have not looked into it. At the end of the day you will either have to use a lot of different rules/comands to achive what you aspire to, or use something more "integrated" like SCS, in either case there is a steep learning curve.

Mick_Berg said:
I'm happy to use Bloodnok's TC3 signals.
Click to expand...

Fine - The TC3 signal range is being extended by a guy who goes under the handle of "francelinetony". You may already be aware of the this thread on the UK Trainz Forum:

http://forum.uktrainz.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=119&t=6261&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=50

These new signals are not on the DLS, they are being released via the Trainz Classics website.

Chris
 
Last edited:
Mick_Berg said:
I'm pretty sure that the 6 approaching tracks at Kings Cross were arranged as two slow lines up, one fast up, one fast down, two slow down. That's pre-1970. If I'm wrong, someone please let me know now!!:eek:
Thanks everyone,
Mick Berg.
Click to expand...

Hi,

Sounds like a great project, would love to see it if/when completed and working.

To the end of 1976 when the layout was remodelled, there were 6 tracks through Gasworks tunnel - from East to West they were Up Slow, Up Fast, Up Relief, Down Fast 1, Down Fast 2, Down Slow.

I have a scan of an article of the KX remodelling which has before and after trackplans, I can send you. Send me a PM with your email if interested.

cheers
Stovepipe
 
stovepipe said:
Hi,

Sounds like a great project, would love to see it if/when completed and working.

To the end of 1976 when the layout was remodelled, there were 6 tracks through Gasworks tunnel - from East to West they were Up Slow, Up Fast, Up Relief, Down Fast 1, Down Fast 2, Down Slow.

I have a scan of an article of the KX remodelling which has before and after trackplans, I can send you. Send me a PM with your email if interested.

cheers
Stovepipe
Click to expand...

That is very useful info, Stovepipe, and you have a PM with my email.
Many thanks,
Mick Berg.
 
stovepipe said:
No problem, sending article now.
Click to expand...
That's great, it's the first clear diagram of the track layout I've seen. Now I will have to get my distances right, it's such a tight squeeze. I've ordered an Alan Godfrey OS map from 1914 to help with this.
Thanks,
Mick Berg.
EDIT - No fault of Alan Godfrey, but this map was not useful. Oh well.:(
 
Last edited:
Progress on Terminus Operations - AI Messing About

Well, the AI is messing with me again.
I have one train behaving very well, it pulls into the platform, decouples, sends message, another loco comes in and takes the train away, the original loco goes to the stabling point. This process repeats for ever.
Then I added a second train, everything is the same, except that it uses a different platform, of course. Now this train gets stuck when it should leave the platform. And I can't move it, even in DCC mode. (It isn't the "station at 90 degrees" bug.) Would anyone by any miracle have a suggestion as to why this is happening? The HUD doesn't give any useful clues.
Mick Berg.:(
 
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