Suggestions for creators of NSW (well...Australian) routes.

Natvander

New member
There have been some great NSW routes uploaded to the DLS over the years, but I've found that most (with no offence to the creators who obv put in substantial hours of work) have some similar characteristics that, with only a little extra work, could be improved to make the routes even better (and make them far more prototypical).


The first one is track spacing. Unfortunately the in-game level crossings and double track don't help, but most routes uploaded have track spacing far wider than what is prototypical. The NSW standards are approx 3.5m between running lines and loops and 4m between sidings and other tracks. If you look at the following images (thanks to www.nswrail.net) you get a good example of how close the tracks are.

http://www.nswrail.net/locations/photo.php?name=NSW:Cootamundra:20&line=NSW:main_south:0
http://www.nswrail.net/locations/photo.php?name=NSW:Goulburn:15&line=NSW:main_south:0
http://www.nswrail.net/locations/photo.php?name=NSW:Central:27&line=NSW:main_south:0

I have uploaded a tool to help with spacing - [FONT=Verdana, Arial]61119:1080


The second, which is related to the first, is signal location. As the track spacing is narrow, at the end of a loop you cannot have both the signals on the left hand side of the line. Prototypically, the signals should be on either side of the line, as per the following photos...

http://www.nswrail.net/locations/photo.php?name=NSW:Quipolly:1&line=NSW:main_north:0
http://www.nswrail.net/locations/photo.php?name=NSW:Willow+Tree:6&line=NSW:main_north:0
http://www.nswrail.net/locations/photo.php?name=NSW:Wauchope:6&line=NSW:north_coast:0


The third is the construction of points. These do take some care and practice to create, but are well worth the effort. Again I have uploaded several templates to make the job easier (look up "Turnout" with my username). Obviously points for running-line operations need to be a far lesser angle than those for sidings etc.


There are some great resources on line for helping us route builders - two of the best are the ARTC site and nswrail.net


I hope this post may spur us route creators to take a little extra time and effort on our trackwork to give the community even greater routes.
[/FONT]
 
May i ask a ( possibly stupid ) Question.?
What would you do if you have 3 tracks?
Cause then you couldn't have one on either side like you talk about???


Thanks
Anthony
 
Natvander's In-built TRS2006 Gantry/s:
gantry1xv1.png

There are different types (3 Tracks, 1 Track, 4 Tracks etc.)

Tom :)
 
If I may be so bold as to add to Natvander's excellent list of suggestions...

One thing I've seen on a lot of layouts is ridiculously tight curves.
Real standard gauge railways do have limits for curvature yet I've seen Trainz SG layouts with curves and/or points down to a radius of 23 metres (that's only just over 1 chain). These make #4 turnouts look fairly generous! The ARTC site mentioned by Natvander is excellent if you're looking for info on building realistic points. Also, keep your mainline curves over a radius of at least 15 chains and branchlines to over 10 chains or so. There are some exceptions to these (like the Oberon line in NSW and the Noojee line in Victoria) but generally, don't make 'em too tight!

Another thing to watch is how the track is laid. Last century, most Australian railways were surveyed with constant radius curves (instead of transition curves) separated by straight track. Lines just didn't look like model-railway flexible track, yet that's how most people lay track in Trainz. I've studied about fifteen original railway construction surveys with hundreds of curves between them and of them all, one alone had a single left hand curve running directly into a right hand curve (and that was in fairly rugged terrain). I also know of one Australian railway construction survey in the 1880's that was rejected outright by the railway's CCE simply because it had two curves without straight track between them. Stick to curve-straight-curve-straight-curve and ensure your straight track is really straight for a more realistic look.

Happy tracklaying!

Cheers,
Dreadnought1
 
A lot of in-built double track x-ings and bridges are spaced too wide. Also some DLS ones too. Some of Virtualsouthernregion's UK crossings seem OK, and Um xing's for unprotected crossings, there are a lot of those around Queensland.
What's a gantry....Duh!
 
"pgmetcalf" has several UK gated level crossings with 3.5 and 4 metre track centres which will work nicely for some of the older Aussie level crossings.

For simple rural level crossings, I often use "prechod_dreveny" and "prechod_dreveny_2" wooden crossing boards by "stelerp" (built-in for '06 users), "roadsign_unprotected_crossing" by Natvander and some cattle-grids to build the level crossings. I use no-traffic roads in most country areas as that's generally more realistic than a car every 5-10 seconds as it seems with the normal road systems.

Cheers,
Dreadnought1
 
Track spacing and curvature issues

I would like to extend the topic of track spacing and curvature to include modern European standards and recommendation which I believe apply to any other continent. My comments are based on handbook "Linie Kolejowe" ("Railroads") published in 2002 by Warsaw Polytechnic, Poland for students of faculty of Railway Transport Technology, year 3 and 4. As Poland is now part of European Union, it uses very similar if not exact criteria in designing rail roads what other European countries, such as Germany, Austria, Italy and some non-European countries like Japan. I believe these standards are not too far away from standards used nowadays in USA and Australia. This book proves that almost every route I got with TRS2006 or TC or from DS is NON-prototypical in general, not too mention in detail. Unfortunately I don't know if this book was translated into other languages and cannot refer an English version of it.


- Track spacing

It is not just so simple to state that the track spacing should be 3.5 m or 6 m or some other value. In a straight track the distance may be 3.5 m, but you need to add to it an extra length on curves; the smaller radius, the bigger distance between the tracks. One of the advantages of laying double track close to each other is that you save space when adding turnouts. If you plan to run trains with speed of 100 km/h in each direction, then you should use turnouts of angle of at least 1:18.5. The angle and the space between the track determines the minimum distance between two adjacent turnouts. If the distance between the tracks is 3.5 m then distance between two adjacent turnouts is 3.5 x 18.5 = 64.75 m. But if the distance between the tracks is 5.7 m (as required by some of TRAINZ bridges or other objects), then distance between two adjacent turnouts should be at least 105.5 m. So you need an extra 40 m just to add one turnout. The good news is that you need to do it only for the main track. For additional tracks you can lower speed to 60 or 40 km/h and increase turnout angle to 1:12 and 1:9 respectively. Then the distance will drop to 42 m and 68.4 m for 1:12 turnout and 31.5 m and 51.3 m for 1:9 turnout. Of course, if you want your route to emulate a real railway you should space additional tracks at least 6 m (for newly built lines recommendation is 6.5 m) and increase the gap between the turnouts accordingly. Similar principles apply to adding track side objects, platforms, etc. For simplicity I space tracks at around 5.7 m regardless whether it is the main line track or additional tracks on a station. This simplifies route design, speeds up implementation and eliminates the need for gantry which I found quite inflexible in terms of placing it over a track.

- Track curvature
In my opinion even the most spectacular and breath taking routes suffers from three major problems when considering realism and accuracy of track curvature:
1/ Imbalanced curves
2/ Spline spacing
3/ Insufficient (too small) curve radius to run trains within the speed limit.
Perhaps these problems are not a fault of route designer, but a general trend that TRAINZ emulate a model (carpet) railway like HO, TT, N, etc, rather than a real railway.

1/ Imbalance curves.
I use this term to describe the curves in which a singe spline shows completely different reading on each side. Say on left side I get reading of 500 m and on right side I get 50 m. This problem can by largely minimised by moving splines along the track until the reading is within 5-10% on both sides of the spline. More accurate spline positioning is not possible in TRAINZ without using some third-party tools, of which I would like to hear, if they exist. This makes difficult to design track for trains travelling with speed 400 km/h or higher where radius must be at least 8000 m, but slight touching of a spline changes the radius beyond acceptable error.

2/ Spline spacing.
I found that for some unknown reason if two adjacent splines on a curve are spaced too far away they are likely to cause a train to jitter, i.e.to move with an excessive and visible friction sideways. I think that the friction is caused, because the driver is not able to accurately plot direction of a train moving on a curve where nearby splines are too far away. This can be fixed by separating splines by no more than say 100 m (an exact value seems impossible to calculate). But it requires lots of extra work, so in my own routes I space splines at around 190 m. At this length there is no visible friction, unless you zoom in on undercarriage of cars or trucks.

3/ Curves radius.
A TT scale model train can run on a kitchen table with speed of 400 km/h on a curve of 50 m, which is hardly suitable for even roughest tram lines. So do TRAINZ! Isn't it wonderful? If you not happy with it, you can stick to the standards of European Union and calculate minimum radius of the curve from the formula:
R >= (Vmax / k) ^ 2
where R is the minimum radius of the curve in meters;
Vmax is the maximum speed of train;
k is a "magic number", equal to 4.6 or to 4.5 on some railways (Japan, Poland). The number is calculated from rather complex formula taking into account width of the track, track profile, earth gravity at the very point the track is laid and maximum centrifugal acceleration allowed, so I stop here. It is good enough to remember that the lover the number the less comfortable drive for passengers and safe carriage of the goods. If the number is too low, train will leave the track and become airborne.

So, if you want your train to travel with maximum speed of 160 km/h, calculated minimum radius of the track is (160 / 4.6) ^ 2 = 1210 m. If you already laid track in which the sharpest curve has only 150 m and you wonder at what speed trains should negotiate this curve, you can reverse the above formula
Vmax <= k * SQRT(R)
where SQRT is sqare root function of the argumet inside ()
and calculate max. speed as 4.6 * SQR(150) = 56 km/h.

Apart of it, there are two major concerns when laying curved track on a real railway:
- Curve with radius smaller than 1500 m result in significantly faster wear of rails and rolling stock
- Curve with radius less than 600 m make impossible to weld separate rails into longer section or they will break after a short time.

As to transitional curves - they are not needed in TRAINZ, but necessary on a real railway in order to minimise the impact of CF (Centrifugal Force) on the rolling stock, track and passengers or load. It is actually not the magnitude of CF that is so damaging, but the rate with which this force grows when a train moves from a straight track into a curve. Theoretically, on a straight track CF is zero. As soon as train enters even most gentle curve, CF grows to some value and we know that if something grows from nothing in an instant, it grows with infinite rate. If trains were 100% rigid they would break up on any curve, at any speed. But in reality some of CF is absorbed by couplers, boogies, wheels and undercarriage. Despite TRAINZ are totally CF resistant (they do not have mass, they exist only in computer memory), I believe you can still notice that a train runs a little smoother if you add transitional curves. There is no tool to build transitional curve in TRAINZ and if you connect two sections of a straight track using curve track, Surveyor tends to do exactly the opposite - it makes curve near the straight sections sharp and the one in the centre of the curve smooth. On a real railway this method would be disastrous! People would fly out of the windows and coal hoppers would arrive empty if arrive at all. It can be fixed by pulling the inner splines (i.e. splines not adjacent to the straight section) slightly away, i.e. in the direction opposite to the centre of the curve. What I do is to make sure the inner splines hold the minimum radius and I allow the splines connecting straight track to have radius 50% or even 100% bigger. In this method, when you run a train you will notice that it engages the curve in a very smooth motion. Of course the longer the transitional curve the less space you have for the remaining track, so you need to balance your design.

This is all for now, I leave more for later on. Sorry for this longish reply, but for me writing about TRAINZ is almost as much fun as building or driving them.

I wish you all good luck in never ending TRAINZ struggle,
Legia
 
Last edited:
Hi Legia

While some of your suggestions are correct for Europe, I thought I should point out that the Australian standards are in many ways vastly different. Furthermore, it is near impossible, given the limitations of Trainz and the behaviour of splines, to exactly copy the prototype.

There are very few lines that have a 6m spacing, especially lines that have been in existence for several decades or more. On the majority of lines in NSW, you cannot fit a man standing in the "six foot" if two trains travel past at the same time. The widening on curves can be worked out using the following formula, but it is VERY hard to implement (I've tried...).

(60"/R)+(60"/R1)+2.5e

R = radius of outer track in chains
R1 = radius of inner track in chains
e = difference in superelevation (if outer track radius is greater)

There are few turnouts that are rated to a higher speed than 60km/h. The current NSW standards are 1:9 for sidings (20km/h) and 1:9 (20km/h), 1:10.5 (30km/h) and 1:15 (50km/h) for main lines.

The geography of Australia (especially the east coast and the lines crossing the Great Divide) and the lesser number of passengers does not allow for the same standards as used in Europe. Main lines have gradients as steep as 1:33 and curve radius down to 220m. These are lines that see heavy traffic, both freight and passenger. The fastest timetabled train in Australia has a maximum allowed speed of 165km/h, which it seldom achieves.

This post isn't meant to be critical of your post, but to point out the differences in standards in use throughout the world.
 
Hi Natvander,

I am glad that you read my post. I've been living in Australia for 14 years, but I never had a chance to have a serious discussion about trains. My only train experience down under is to use city rail trains in Sydney to get to work. So, it was very interesting to read about some facts on that matter.

I think you made your point that we can't get too prototypical with trainz. I always believed that trainz are very good in emulating model railway, but not real railway. Which is a pity, because with advance of software you could have best from both of worlds.

I hope we will have another chance to discuss more about this and other subjects.

Cheers,
Legia
 
NSW signals

Hi Natvander,

I think I own your another reply. Some time ago I downloaded your asset NSW_2asp_RD <kuid2:61119:24058:1>, only then I didn't know you. I downloaded it, because this signal does not come with the original TRS2006 distribution.

Now that I moved to Trainz Classics I can't download NSW signals, because they are not part of TC. Is there any way to use them in TC?

Are there any plans to make an update of these signals? The reason I am asking is that I would like to change 2 things about them:
1/ Signal set up should be saved as part of the route not session. I often have problems with overwriting or copying sessions and have to set up these signals over and over. On a large board this could be quite a chore.
2/ For right diverse signals, the default direction of turnout should be right.

Are there any instructions on how to re-configure assets like signals? Maybe I could be of some help.

legia
 
I will look into the signals. As for saving their settings, the only way we could get the script to work was to have them saved to a session. The best way to overcome this is to create a 'base' session and create sessions off that. The speed signs have the same limitation.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by point 2.
 
Hi Natvander,

when you edit properties of a NSW 3asp signal, there is a list of turnouts in which you can add or remove turnouts affecting this signal. Next to each turnout you have an arrow indicating direction of turnout (left or right). What I meant is that for right diverged signals the initial direction of the arrow should be right not left. I can't imagine signals they list more than 2 turnouts, set in opposite direction. I tried it, but it never worked and I always got red light. But this is a minor point.

There are also two other issues
1/ When I set signal incorrectly, or remove turnouts listed in signal properties or do something silly, but unavoidable, I sometimes get a null pointer exception in driver. This isn't fatal and I can continue driving, but it may indicate that underlying script/program does not check for unusual, so called border conditions, such like no name, label, missing components etc. Is there any documentation on how to program Trainz assets? Being programmer myself maybe I could help.

2/ Trainz drivers are smart and can work around speed limit set by NSW 3 asp signals. They approach signal when the turnout is set in straight direction and pass the signal while it shows green light, so no speed limit apply. Just after signal is passed they change turnout direction to left or right and go through it with full speed. I am not sure if it is possible to get rid of this behaviour. I think this is because in Trainz drivers run from one turnout to another and set them individually, not as a part of a block that must be entirely secured before signal can change to green or orange

But the biggest problem I have is how to transfer assets from TRS2006 to TC?

Cheers,
Stan
 
Problem with NSW signals

Hi Natvander,

when you edit properties of a NSW 3asp signal, there is a list of turnouts in which you can add or remove turnouts affecting this signal. Next to each turnout you have an arrow indicating direction of turnout (left or right). What I meant is that for right diverged signals the initial direction of the arrow should be right not left. I can't imagine signals they list more than 2 turnouts, set in opposite direction. I tried it, but it never worked and I always got red light. But this is a minor point.

There are also two other issues
1/ When I set signal incorrectly, or remove turnouts listed in signal properties or do something silly, but unavoidable, I sometimes get a null pointer exception in driver. This isn't fatal and I can continue driving, but it may indicate that underlying script/program does not check for unusual, so called border conditions, such like no name, label, missing components etc. Is there any documentation on how to program Trainz assets? Being programmer myself maybe I could help.

2/ Trainz drivers are smart and can work around speed limit set by NSW 3 asp signals. They approach signal when the turnout is set in straight direction and pass the signal while it shows green light, so no speed limit apply. Just after signal is passed they change turnout direction to left or right and go through it with full speed. I am not sure if it is possible to get rid of this behaviour. I think this is because in Trainz drivers run from one turnout to another and set them individually, not as a part of a block that must be entirely secured before signal can change to green or orange

But the biggest problem I have is how to transfer assets from TRS2006 to TC?

Cheers,
Stan
 
Hi Stan

lets see if we can resolve some of these issues...

We tried to remove the null error but in the end we had a time limit and found no solution. We decided the vast majority would not have the issue and as it's not fatal, those that do can simply fix it by adding/naming the points etc. We had to decide what was essential to fix and what was 'nice' to fix.

For complete flexibility we allowed the points to be set in either direction and there are infact situations where the main points need to be set in the 'opposite' direction to the direction of the signal. By fixing the main point to either direction removes this flexibility. There are also many situations where there may be more than 2 points that need to be set in a specific direction for the signal to display clear, and it also gives us a platform for future signals.

The speed limit issue is something we cannot fix, but can be resolved in the creation of the session (taking the control of points away from the AI train and instead controlled by rules).

I am considering re-releasing the signals with slightly lower polys on the DLS, but that will depend on other priorities.
 
Back
Top