Starting From Scratch

Iced8383 · Nov 4, 2010

RRSignal · Nov 4, 2010

If you own a retail copy of XP, keep that and scratch Win7. You'll get about the same or better performance with XP, unless you know you will be running DX11 games (and even then...who knows.) Trainz and many if not most other major sims - even X-Plane - are DX9-based, so there's no benefit to getting Win7. Also, that'll free up $100 that you can put towards better hardware, which will make much more of a difference, especially for Trainz. A 300Gb Raptor will run you $180 from Newegg and it's a fast drive.

I think that mobo may be overpriced if you are seriously looking to save money; even the CPU may be. The third generation of Sata (6Gb) really hasn't progressed much yet. I'm not much of an AMD guy so I'll leave that to others but you can get a quad core and and appropriate mobo for about $200 less than what you are planning to spend. AFAIK, Trainz' multi-CPU capabilities are rather limited at the moment.

itareus · Nov 4, 2010

Make sure you can expand the memory to at least 6gb (for a Win 7 64 bit OS) without ditching what you buy now.

Also I think a 640gb HDD might be a bit small given the size of programs and other files we get these days, however you should be able to add another later. 10000 rpm drive would be good. Ooops - I've just bust your budget!

johnwhelan · Nov 5, 2010

Do the sums on the power supply then have a look at http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...29024&cm_re=antec_case-_-11-129-024-_-Product
and see if it fits.

I'd go Win 7 64 bit.

Other than that your system looks fine. I'm running TS2010 with a 5850 and it seems to work.

Typically servers these days cost more in electricity costs than hardware costs over three years. I don't think PCS are much different so your 750 watt power supply could be more expensive than you think.

Cheerio John

djt · Nov 5, 2010

scratch Win7

Nope, not with 4GB of system RAM and 1GB of memory on the video card, Windows 7 64 would be the intelligent choice.

even X-Plane - are DX9-based

Wrong again, X-Plane is written in OpenGL.

RRSignal · Nov 5, 2010

djt said:
Nope, not with 4GB of system RAM and 1GB of memory on the video card, Windows 7 64 would be the intelligent choice.

Nope, he'll do just as well if not better, especially if he's getting 4Gb. If he were buying 6 or 8Gb I'd say go with Win7 64.

Wrong again, X-Plane is written in OpenGL.

Their system requirements specs claim DirectX 9 is required. If X-Plane goes the OpenGL route, then there's even less reason to invest in Win7 (not that there was one to begin with) since it won't take advantage of any of the DirectX enhancements offered in Vista/Win7. Since Trainz offers the choice between DX9 or OGL, there's no benefit to be had by Win7 to anyway, so it's kind of a moot point twice over then.

clam1952 · Nov 5, 2010

Very similar to my new setup here.

Used an existing spare case, M4A88TD-V / EVO motherboard, a 6 core Phenom and 8 GB Patriot DDR3 1600, a 650 Watt Corsair Power supply and a 250GB WD drive, still using an Nvidia GT240 (1GB DDR5) from a previous setup and added a couple of other drives a 200GB and an 80GB and a DVDRW I had lying around.
Previous setup has its original GT8500 back in which does work ok with Trainz.
Running Win7 and it is blowing away performance wise my previous Win7 setup which wasn't sluggish which incidentally was better than XP on the same machine.

Not overclocked anything yet, to be honest it doesn't really need it.

For info the few seconds delay in changing tabs in surveyor in 2010 has virtually vanished and my frame rates are way up, runs very smoothly with no stuttering and far better draw distance.
I stuck with the GT240 for the moment as the card was working fine anyway.

Edit:
Just to add not every one runs just Trainz so 64 bit is an advantage to some of us as well as future proofing.

RRSignal · Nov 5, 2010

clam1952 said:
For info the few seconds delay in changing tabs in surveyor in 2010 has virtually vanished and my frame rates are way up, runs very smoothly with no stuttering and far better draw distance.
I stuck with the GT240 for the moment as the card was working fine anyway.

Strange, I've never had delays in Surveyor or driver and that's with an 8400GS no less, even when running with 1Gb. AA at halfway, all other sliders all the way to the right. Load time is rather slow lately but no biggie. That will change with my new Raptor.

djt · Nov 5, 2010

Nope, he'll do just as well if not better, especially if he's getting 4Gb. If he were buying 6 or 8Gb I'd say go with Win7 64.

Wrong, with 4GB of system RAM and 1GB on the video card he's already exceeded the address space of XP 32-bit.

If X-Plane goes the OpenGL route

X-Plane went the OpenGL route a long time ago, it has always been an OpenGL sim nothing new, X-Plane 10 will also use an OpenGL engine.

then there's even less reason to invest in Win7

That depends on whether he wants to run a dead end street OS (XP) or not. X-Plane runs great on Windows 7 64 also, so does OpenBVE another OpenGL sim.

Iced8383 · Nov 5, 2010

Thanks for the suggestions, I will look into it a bit tomorrow. I will likely bump the PSU down to around a 500W-550W supply. Also, I don't understand motherboards too well so I'm open to suggestions. My current hard drive (500GB) is a little more than half full, however I do plan on getting X-Plane 10, so who knows how big the filesize of that may be if X-Plane 9 takes of 73GB. I'm likely going to search for a new graphics card tomorrow, also open for suggestions there. In response to RRSignal, I do happen to have a copy of Windows XP 32-bit, however I have a computer running Windows 7 that runs very stable compared to my old computer. I'll likely stick with the 4GB of memory for now and upgrade it in the future. I think I may stick with the CPU, however if someone does make a suggestion I'll look into it. I'll post again tomorrow with updated specs and a new price.

RRSignal · Nov 5, 2010

djt said:
That depends on whether he wants to run a dead end street OS (XP) or not. X-Plane runs great on Windows 7 64 also, so does OpenBVE another OpenGL sim.

It makes more sense to spend the money on better hardware then an OS with "features" he can't use. I think the Raptor would help a lot.

Iced8383 · Nov 5, 2010

RRSignal said:
It makes more sense to spend the money on better hardware then an OS with "features" he can't use. I think the Raptor would help a lot.

I'm sticking with Windows 7. Also, copies of Windows XP Home Edition go for more than the OS I linked to.

djt · Nov 5, 2010

I will likely bump the PSU down to around a 500W-550W supply.

Whether this new system configuration is going to use it or not, I wouldn't go below 750Watt with a new setup. If you want a second opinion on it I would do some research in a good PSU forum -

http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3

I do plan on getting X-Plane 10

With X-Plane 10 just like previous X-Plane releases using OpenGL and ATI not having the best track record with OpenGL support in Windows I'd go with something from Nvidia.

Something else to take into consideration is OpenGL 4.1. If X-Plane 10 starts to use OpenGL 4.1 and GLSL 4.10 functionality you will need to be running one of Nvidia's Fermi GPU's to access that functionality, it's not supported on previous hardware. In this case Windows XP is not going to cut it either because of the issues with Fermi and that OS.

ATI is supporting these OpenGL features with a dedicated driver that works on all of their hardware, not just the latest GPU's, but I've heard that it is less than a stellar solution and future OpenGL support in Windows is still questionable AMD/ATI.

big_b · Nov 5, 2010

You should also consider this case which includes all the fans.i have one of these & couldn't be happier with it.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146062

Dave

djt · Nov 5, 2010

It makes more sense to spend the money on better hardware then an OS with "features" he can't use. I think the Raptor would help a lot.

Better memory management and multi-core support are just two features in Windows 7 that he can and will be using.

As far as the Raptor is concerned, if the budget doesn't allow for SSD's then yes the Raptor would be a good second choice. Down the road an upgrade to SSD's is bound to happen and here again Windows 7 supports SSD's far better than XP ever dreamed of.

RRSignal · Nov 5, 2010

djt said:
Better memory management and multi-core support are just two features in Windows 7 that he can and will be using.

Problem is, programming techniques often don't keep up with the hardware. I'm sure it will be making use of those better techniques in five years but absent specifics from software manufacturers it's all speculation. A lot of software didn't take advantage of >1Gb or LargeAddress, for instance. I just hope for the OP's sake he's buying a computer that he's planning to keep for 5, 6 or 7 years.

ETA: Sort of a non-issue for me as I own a couple unused XP Pro 64 licenses, and intend to use them!

As far as the Raptor is concerned, if the budget doesn't allow for SSD's then yes the Raptor would be a good second choice. Down the road an upgrade to SSD's is bound to happen and here again Windows 7 supports SSD's far better than XP ever dreamed of.[/quote]

I thought "currently SSD's offer little to no improvement over the WD Raptor's as far as “in game” improvements are concerned." Assuming the technology matures, as it probably will, they're still extremely expensive. And WD is going to fight tooth and nail to keep the Raptor competitive pricewise - they already are - so the SSD isn't going to obsolete the Raptor anytime soon.

djt · Nov 5, 2010

I'm sure it will be making use of those better techniques in five years but absent specifics from software manufacturers it's all speculation.

I've already been running plenty of sims/games that use multi-core CPU's with more right around the corner. X-Plane 10 will use up to 20 cores and OpenRails has been setup to use 4 cores and even in it's development stage is using 3.

I just hope for the OP's sake he's buying a computer that he's planning to keep for 5, 6 or 7 years.

Maybe for office chores and surfing the net you can get away with keeping the same computer for 5, 6 or 7 years but for gaming forget it. Lol, I'm lucky if I get six-nine months out of a hardware upgrade.

I thought "currently SSD's offer little to no improvement over the WD Raptor's as far as “in game” improvements are concerned." Assuming the technology matures, as it probably will, they're still extremely expensive. And WD is going to fight tooth and nail to keep the Raptor competitive pricewise - they already are - so the SSD isn't going to obsolete the Raptor anytime soon.

In game performance no, boot up and program loading yes and that's where the big difference is. The prices of SSD's are plummeting and their performance is only getting better and better so getting rid of mechanical drives is a no-brainer. I've used Raptor hard drives in all of my systems since 2003 with no issues but at the same time I'll be happy to get rid of them for solid sate storage.

johnwhelan · Nov 5, 2010

djt said:
"It makes more sense to spend the money on better hardware then an OS with "features" he can't use. I think the Raptor would help a lot."

Better memory management and multi-core support are just two features in Windows 7 that he can and will be using.

As far as the Raptor is concerned, if the budget doesn't allow for SSD's then yes the Raptor would be a good second choice. Down the road an upgrade to SSD's is bound to happen and here again Windows 7 supports SSD's far better than XP ever dreamed of.

The constraint here is cash, although I think either a Raptor or an SSD would make a lot of sense it wouldn't lower the price.

Perhaps if we know what the existing box is it maybe possible to upgrade it to acceptable Trainz performance for under $1,000?

Cheerio John

Iced8383 · Nov 6, 2010

John-I'm currently using a laptop to run Trainz. There's no way I can get better performance out of it than I already have. If anyone can recommend a Nvidia graphics card that can run Trainz I'll gladly accept it. I found a GTX 460 on newegg, however it is now out of stock. I will post up a new configuration soon, and I will be keeping the current PSU.

Iced8383 · Nov 7, 2010

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