Spline Bug At Fixed Objects - When Did It Start

V

Vern

Trainz Maverick
Immense frustration this afternoon. Having spent the last three or four days laying track for the Hill Of Howth tramway and making a start on scenery, on opening the route this afternoon I discovered once again track splines had managed to detach themselves at fixed objects and become immovable until you insert a further spline point and delete the tail end to re-attach. As the route had many waygauges and interactive stations it would become impossible to keep track of where this has occurred and I was not prepared to risk releasing a bugged route, so it's gone.

Anyhow back to my question, does anyone have an idea which version of Trainz this started with? I have a mind it was TRS2009 as I don't recall it ever being a problem in TRS2006 or earlier. If someone can confirm that, I may think about reinstalling TRS2006 and tackling the route in that. Old and out of warranty/lifecycle support but at least it works and if N3V don't want routes from that version on the DLS, that's what Trainsim.com is for. If not, then I'm afraid my route building days in Trainz are probably at an end. I'm sure I reported this bug to N3V some time ago but given it seems to have infested at least the last three versions is presumably not one the programmer can chase down.
 
Good Morning Vern
Just to clarify... Which version are you currently seeing this issue with? TS2009, TS2010, or TS12? And which build number of that version?

Do you see this issue with all/any 'fixed track' object, and track spline?

Regards
 
TS12 latest patched version though I have also encountered it previously in TS2010 also latest patched version. I'm sure I have related the circumstances on raising the issue previously but it essentially occurs at any fixed object and with any type of track, it is not KUID related. I have encountered at stations and level crossings previously, now also at waygauges.
 
I've had it in TS2010 and TS12, any build version. Scuttlebutt says it's always been a problem, but nobody seems to know exactly which static "fixed track" objects are the culprits, or what about these objects triggers the bug.

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?73563-Track-turns-into-fixed-track

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?75914-undeletable-track

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?74609-297-turntable-bugs

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?85960-Track-Displacement-At-Interactive-Objects-(TS12)

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?80401-Undeletable-Splines

Picture of one problem asset;

52665956.jpg


What I need to know is which objects do this - seems to be any kind of static object which has vertex points for attaching splines to it, industry, fuel track, bridge, whatever. If we knew exactly what the trigger is we could fix it, right now it's a crapshoot because some objects do it, others don't, and the ones that do don't always do it.
 
If I recall this happened in early versions of trainz aswell with some crossings. From what I can remember it was solved by placing the track but not connected. Then get the vertex height of the objects track connection point and apply it to the track and then connect the track to the object.
 
Just checked my email records and I faulted this with the Helpdesk back in April - ref #SEV-633484. Kris Deagle was dealing with it but despite sending the requested information to him, I never got any further response on the issue. As he has now left the company, I guess he took details of whatever he did or didn't do about the issue, with him. I have now uninstalled TS2010 and TS12 for the time being as it is simply too big a problem to make it worthwhile attempting any further routes while this persists. Although I don't recollect it being a problem in 04/06 if Stagecoach's recollections are correct I won't get much joy in those versions either. Based on Stagecoach's workaround it appears there is a coding issue whereby if you place a spline directly on to a fixed object at some point the programme thinks the spline is 0.2m different in height and reverts it to that, twisting and freezing the spline end in the process.
 
Vern, You're not by chance using the "ctrl z undo" function are you? I know that caused a problem clear back in 06 with the track going wild extending itself clear across the board. I know that's not the same problem you're having here but I thought maybe it's manifested itself in a different way now.
 
I did use the Undo button a couple of times but not when spline or track editing and not every time the corruption has occurred, which is seen after you re-enter the route on re-starting the programme. I had even got to the point of checking Task Manager that TAD Daemon had shut down before turning off the PC, in case that was responsible. It may be a factor but ultimately it's a bug N3V need to get their programmer(s) working on and hopefully fixing.

Going back into TRS2006 didn't really offer a viable alternative. The original CMP is quite hopeless, freezing on asset database refresh and checking user id and performance in Surveyor was abysmal even without applying Trainz Tuner to increase the draw distance.

So I have taken the decision to let Trainz rest a while, a bit of a shame as I would have liked to contribute a couple of tram routes, who knows maybe at some future stage I'll dust it all off and try again.
 
Alpha Tango Foxtrot Quebec

Be nice to know so we could avoid it and possibly analyze, got a name and KUID number for the suspect or suspects that might be the triggers?
 
NOW he tells me! :hehe: IIRC I replaced with the original 120 foot turntable in the latest Chicago Metro, since it was such a random thing I never did pin down whether the reskinned turntable was the trigger or the victim of some other trigger. Someone mentioned the MB single plate girder bridge, I thought it was the MB quad plate girder bridge, is this possibly something to do with updating fixed track objects for newer builds? Incompatibility between the new stitched track mesh thingamy and the older format for vertex points on the fixed track objects?
 
I don't think there are any particular suspects Jim. As I mentioned route binned and TS12 consigned to the virtual ether so unable to quote specific KUID's, but the objects concerned were the 3.5m tram waygauges, AJS compact tram stops and UK bullhead rail, grey ballast. However I would not point the finger at any of those, as I've had it previously with XING brand level crossings and the CN stations. In fact, if you download my Raquette Lake route from the DLS, you'll see most of the interactives at the terminus have detached the splines. So IMHO diverting the blame to individual objects is not what should be happening here, it's shonky code or some process/checksum going wrong which is causing this. Problem rests fairly and squarely at N3V's feet to take a break from converting the latest gadget or tablet version and fix the PC code. In the meantime only workaround is to either avoid fixed objects altogether (not easy), see if resetting the spline height before connecting as suggested earllier works, or be prepared to spend a large amount of time each time you load a route checking for detached splines.

I apologise for the slight rant but it is frustrating, a. To have the programme keep trashing your work and, b. Being driven back into the arms of Railworks as the only viable programme to build the types of route I want to see.
 
Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here

I don't think going back to Don'tWorks is the answer, what would you do with the finished route besides take screenshots?

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=367&t=128130

Poor guy is trying to set up ONE lousy prescripted overtaking meet, and the only real answer is to dump the birdwatching simulator and get Trainz since Don'tWorks AI dispatcher can't handle even that simple task.

Anyway I think the main problem here is nobody can duplicate the gripe consistently enough to pinpoint an actual object that does it 50% of the time, all my problems with Chicago Metro happened over THERE when I was working over HERE so I could never figure out when it happened let alone the cause. I don't think the developers ever duplicated in house, if they did then SOMEBODY would know what it is about some objects that causes the glitch, near as I can tell nobody knows the cause at present. Or even has a likely suspect.
 
I experience this problem of track becoming detached from fixed objects such as level crossings, passenger active stations and industries quite frequently. I have a suspicion that it is caused when the ground level under the object is adjusted using the terrain tools to level out the track. Frequently the track becomes detached from the fixed object after this process and yet it is not obvious when looking at the spline points. It only becomes apparent when AI stops the consist and the HUD appears (there is no message reporting why AI cannot find the next trackmark in the sequence). Driving forward with the HUD gives a derailment at the broken joint.

Like Vern, I have found that the offending spline point behaves as if it was still attached to the fixed object when trying to use either the 'move spline point' tool or 'separate spline' tool and that the only way to correct the problem is to insert a new track spline point near the fixed asset and delete the short section of track leading to the fixed object. Then put in a new piece of track or use the 'move spline point' tool to extend the track to the fixed asset spline point.

This problem is not specific to any particular fixed asset since it affects a number of them, and it it not specific to a particular track since it also can be found when different tracks are used. I have also found that when the route is saved after making the correction, when it is re-opened the problem often comes back.

Although I noticed the problem occasionally in TS2010, it happens much more frequently in TS12 (build 49922).

Examples of the fixed assets upon which I have had the problem are Tside Crossing1 kuid:-1:100735, and Bloodnok's new Station Platforms such as kuid2:60850:22024:1.

These fixed track objects are scenery items and are usually not capable of having their height adjusted using the scenery height adjustment tool. Therefore to level the track it is usually necessary to use something like the terrain plateau tool to adjust the ground under the object so that the track through the fixed asset is at the correct height. This is when the problem usually occurs because the track becomes detached but does not look like it until you try to run a consist over it. Sometimes in Surveyor you can just see two spline circles, one above the other, if you can get the line of sight low enough.

I believe that the problem is not asset related but is in the program.

Scottish
 
Maybe. Believe me I do a lot of hollering about what N3V should be fixing instead of blaming it on user error, but having spent most of my life in electrical, electronic, and mechanical repair I can tell you that before you can fix a gripe you have to be able to duplicate it so you can analyze WHY it's screwing up. If I can't see the failure I can't troubleshoot it, no trouble no shoot. Somehow we need to find something we can consistently duplicate the gripe with to at least give them a starting point to figure out what's wrong.
 
I don't think going back to Don'tWorks is the answer, what would you do with the finished route besides take screenshots?
Click to expand...

I rather suspect TS12 will be reinstalled by the end of the week... Guess I will just have to either use the workaround or avoid fixed objects until/if some sort of patch is forthcoming, assuming that doesn't break it more. I'll save comments for the current state of RW route building for a suitable thread at TS.com, let's just say it is as suspected a confused mess with duplicated/moved asset providers and missing content. At least TS12 you always have what's on the DVD to fall back on as a base.

In fact I suspect TS12 will be back on the laptop tomorrow morning!
 
@ sniper297 and vern

I am 90% certain that the partial detachment of the track spline point to the spline point on the fixed asset arises from altering the height of the fixed asset after attaching the track to the asset. Most times you get away with it but sometimes you don't.

The proceedure I use now seems to solve the problem. First place the fixed asset and adjust it for position, rotation and height. Check the track spline point height on the fixed item and adjust the ground level to give you the desired height for this spline point. Now attach the track to the fixed asset. I have found that final minor adjustment for position and rotation of the fixed asset seems to be OK, it is changing it's height after you have attached the track which can cause the problem.

Scottish
 
All I can say is I feel your pain, if the railworks world editor could make coffee I'd marry it, it's easily one of the best game editors I ever worked with. Problem is what comes next, even trying to get one AI train running takes weeks of configuring and debugging, add a second AI train or any kind of crossing interaction and you're looking at several more months of debugging to get it to run with less than a 50% failure rate. How they can think of that whole interface as acceptable is beyond my comprehension.
 
A theory worth checking Scottish, but I'm 99% certain that my detachments have still occurred when I've pre-levelled the terrain to the desired height then placed the object and not touched it after attaching the spline. Things are not helped by the fact that "normal" spline points sit 0.20m above the terrain by default anyway, whereas the fixed objects lay flush. That's probably an aside, but there are complex algorithms at work and any factor that could point the programmer in the right direction is worth a shot. To summarise so far then...

The detachment occurs at random having saved your work and exiting the programme then restarting.
It occurs regardless of whether you shut down the PC before TAD Daemon has finished running.
It affects virtually all types of fixed object and track systems.
Matching the spline point height on the track to that of the fixed object before attaching may offer a workround.
Changing the height or otherwise moving the fixed asset after attaching the spline may be causing the corruption to occur.

One other idea to throw in the mix - I have only observed this to occur with the track system, not roads attached to fixed objects.
 
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