Slowing down / stopping AI trains

realm174

New member
Howdy folks!

I've come across an issue, and I did a few searches in the forums to see what solutions there might be... It has to do with AI consists not slowing down when they should... or should I say, not slowing down fast enough... I have followed some of the tips of moving the speed signs back, using invisible speed signs, etc... still, I have a consist, not carrying any freight, that will take 3km to go from 50 k/h to full stop. Needless to say, makes it tricky to make them load/unload. That being said, I found out also that it doesn't happen with all locos. For instance, if I use the C44-9W-8012 refuelable loco, it just won't stop anywhere near where it should. If I use pretty much any of the "canned" locos that came with TSR2006, I don't have that problem. Any ideas anyone?

thanks!!

realm174
 
Not to sure of an answer to this one, I would have thought the use of speed signs to be the answer.

An interesting problem and thread to watch, especially as built-in locos work :confused: :confused:

Craig
:):):)
 
Well

Remember Trainz is not exactly designed from Prototypical standards, so it will not exactly follow physics of the real world.:D

Built-in locos are not poorly or badly desinged but they never but Proto stuff in their design, only a computer model.

So all i am saying is to expect this to happen. There was soemthing like this before I can't remember the thread but it was about signaling and other things on AI stuff.:confused:
I'll look up the thread and take a look.:)
 
There is a glitch in Trainz whereby trains slowing under AI control stop by applying the loco brake only - they do not use the train brake. Therefore realistically loaded trains on high-speed and/or downgrade track may fail to stop when required. In fact they may fail to stop altogether :(

Whether a given loco stops at the 'right' place or not depends upon settings in the loco's enginespec file. The critical entry is 'max decel'. Locos which do stop probably have an unrealistically high deceleration rate. Locos with a realistic decel rate probably don't stop.

You gotta choose - you can't have it both ways.

To make trains stop open the loco config in either CMP or TrainzObjectz. Find the kuid number of the enginespec file. Open the enginespec folder. Find 'max decel'. Edit the value to 75000. If that won't stop it, change it to 100000. That should stop just about anything.

There is nothing magical about the values I suggest - experiment a bit - find the compromise that works for you...

Anything you change can be changed back, but if you are worried copy/clone the loco asset and it's enginespec file and play with the copies....

Andy :)
 
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If you don't want to alter the enginespec, add more and more locos to the consist until you get sufficient braking power. Steam engines seem to be the worst at braking so, rather than having, say, ten of them heading a train, hide a few diesels among the carriages/wagons.
 
Hi realm174,

This is a fairly well known problem with 2006 and it is caused by the different physics now used as the model for the game.

The majority of content is still written with DCC settings for 2004 and is not direct enough for the AI too cope.

If you alter the relevent dcc settings of the engines concerned too the following, the AI should cope with little difficulty.

Caution, these settings are very direct, so if you drive with dcc, you will have to be gentle with the controller when stopping.

brakeratio 55000
max-accel 6000
max-decel 80000

Alex.
 
thanks guys! I appreciate the help! So I went through cmp, opened the loco in question through explorer, went into config.txt, and didn't find any entry for any of brakeratio, max-accel, or max-decel. So I wasn't too sure where to add it. I tried different places, then commited the loco back to trainz, I even went in surveyor, removed and re-added the loco, and there's no changes that I can see. It's still taking over 1/2 km to go from 50 k/h to 0, depending on which area of the track. So I have a feeling I didn't do this right. Being that I'm quite new to playing with that kind of things, could someone very kindly walk me through it step by step? Mostly appreciated!!

thank you,

realm174
 
Hi realm

the values you are seeking are not in the loco config. In the loco config find the kuid referenced in the 'enginespec' entry. Now open the enginespec and you will find the values there.

Andy :)
 
Hi realm174,

This is a fairly well known problem with 2006 and it is caused by the different physics now used as the model for the game.

The majority of content is still written with DCC settings for 2004 and is not direct enough for the AI too cope.

If you alter the relevent dcc settings of the engines concerned too the following, the AI should cope with little difficulty.

Caution, these settings are very direct, so if you drive with dcc, you will have to be gentle with the controller when stopping.

brakeratio 55000
max-accel 6000
max-decel 80000

Alex.

You don't need to change the brake ratio line at all as that controls the cab mode braking system's brake force. The lower two lines are the crucial DCC ones.

regards

Harry

Ps. Those brake values look oddly familiar... :p
 
Like i've said in the past, you have to design a route so an idiot can drive on it. Only then will the AI be truely happy..

regards

Harry

LOL Harry! I am currently working on a prototypical route - over thirty miles downgrade all the way west at about 1%. Add 8000 foot trains and stir in a generous 70mph speed limit.....

Never mind driving on it - you'd have to be an idiot to build it!

I have a trick or two up my sleve though to keep the AI happy - or at least I hope I have :confused:

Andy :)
 
You don't need to change the brake ratio line at all as that controls the cab mode braking system's brake force. The lower two lines are the crucial DCC ones.

regards

Harry

Ps. Those brake values look oddly familiar... :p


Harry,

Could you expand on this please.

I was unaware that any settings in the dcc "motor" made any difference too the "Cab mode" physics. I have not been able to find anything in the ccg regarding this.

Alex
 
Harry,

Could you expand on this please.

I was unaware that any settings in the dcc "motor" made any difference too the "Cab mode" physics. I have not been able to find anything in the ccg regarding this.

Alex

Off the top of my head, there is a mixture of DCC stuff and Cab mode stuff in that particular section. The motor section is neither exclusively DCC or exclusively cab.

Brake Force is, as far as I can ascertain, a Cab thing whereas Max Speed is a DCC thing as is the max-accel and max-decel lines.

And no... you won't find any of that in the CCG. I discovered it by accident during the original beta-testing of Service Pack 3 for Trainz Community Edition.

regards

Harry
 
Harry,

Could you expand on this please.

I was unaware that any settings in the dcc "motor" made any difference too the "Cab mode" physics. I have not been able to find anything in the ccg regarding this.

Alex
Alex, unfortunately the motor container is a mixed bag. Here's what the technical manual that came with TRS2004 has to say about it. I've posted this a few times in the past:
Code:
motor resistance    A power setting for DCC more resistance = less power. 
                    A fractional change makes a considerable difference. 
axle-count          (self explanatory) 
surface-area        expressed in sq.ft 
moving-friction-coefficient   locomotives 0.03 
                              freight cars 0.045 
air-drag-coefficient    streamlined locos 0.0017 
                        locos 0.0025 
                        freight cars 0.0005 
                        pass. cars 0.00034 
adhesion           Higher = less wheelslip 
maxvoltage         Generally leave these settings 
maxspeed           In meters per second (divide km/h by 3.6) 
brakeratio         Brake force per brake pipe pressure reduction. 
                   Higher = better braking 
 
It doesn't mention "throttle-notches" which sets the maximum number of
notch settings the dcc throttle will have. Number of throttle-power curves
or sound files doesn't change to match this however. The curves get 
interpolated.
 
further on it mentions:
 
There are a couple of new parameters which can be used to achieve more
prototypical performance when running in DCC mode. These settings can
also be found in the 'motor' section of the enginespec.... 
max-accel 3500 
max-decel 9000 
These parameters result in more realistic looking performance under DCC. If
you would like your DCC trains to run as if controlled by an older style train
transformer, set the parameters as follows... 
max-accel 35000 
max-decel 90000
So I know the axle-count, surface-area, moving-friction-coefficient and air-drag-coefficient are used in cab mode for calculating railcar resistance and I'm fairly certain the brakeratio is also used and they are only used in Cab mode. All the rest are only used for AI/DCC control.

Bob Pearson
PS How motor-resistance, max-voltage, max-accel and max-decel all work together I don't really know. I gave up on DCC mode control many years ago. I wish Auran will someday revise the game and let the AI use the more realistic physics when you select that mode.
 
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Harry and Rob,

Oh my, how could I have missed this.:o

This is something I'll have too spend a little time getting my head around.

Rob, I've pasted your reply too notepad and will work my way thru it on the weekend.

As I said in our Enginespec thread. This technical information has to be preserved somewhere, we can't afford too loose it again.

Thankyou Harry and Rob,

Good luck whitepass, can you keep us appraised?

Alex
 
So far it works on slow down grade and high speed to coal unloading.
Test one had 1 RS-18 and a 2000 ton train on a 2.75% down grade with a red light at the bottom. With 1 RS-18, no stop, runs the red at 1 mph. With 6 RS-18 it stops. With 1 RS-18 and my fix it also stops.
Test two was one loco and some loaded coal car going to a power plant, speed limit was 99mph. With out fix first car did not unload, it did when the fix was used. All test done in TRS6+SP1.

Update: this is done see Freeware
 
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