Signalling...One for the Signal Boffins!

[Smileyman]

Let me just put this out there first.
I know nothing about signalling, other than the very basics.

In another thread, I posted about the AI driving at half speed for too long because they see the yellow signal way too far ahead.
The solution was to put invisible signals in the block so that AI doesn't see the yellow signal until it's a bit closer.
This works very well, except when the invisible signal is yellow because the signal just after it is red, so you still get the slow trundling AI for the whole block.

I'll explain my situation in Trainz right now before I ask the question(s).

I have a pretty straight run for about 8 miles on the passenger track, which eventually allows the trains to get up to 95mph, if they're capable of that.
Having done a 'tiny' bit of research before signalling this line a few weeks back, it seems that the distance between signals should be around 800 metres depending on the speed of the trains running on the line obviously, but for faster trains, like the HST 125, it was advised that distance between signals are usually around 800-1000-1200-1400 metres (again, obviously there are variables).

On my line, when the trains are allowed to get up to 95mph, I spaced the signals between 1km and 1.3km.
If the AI was to only react to an amber signal when it was within 'sight' of it, it would probably be fine, but we've been over this, as have others in threads I've found in the last few days, and Tony seems to not care how awful the AI is in Trainz.

My questions for the Signal Boffins are:

• In prototypical real-life signalling, what are Stop Signals, Home Signals, Advance or Distant Signals, etc?
• Would they be used in a situation like the one I describe above in real life?
• Is it possible to use any of them to help the situation I described above?
• If so, are there Trainz assets available to use for this (I'm talking UK signals for my personal situation), and how would I use them?

Like I said, my knowledge on Signals is pretty much zero, so any help on this appreciated.
From what I can see, using the basic signal setup that I'm using, the distances that the signals are apart would be fine in the real World, but in Trainz I'm wondering if I should just take out the invisible signals, and add another normal signal about half way between each block.
I would have to keep an eye on the braking distances of the trains that I intend to run on that line I know, but I think it might work.

Or, you signalling Gurus might have a better suggestion.
The fastest train will be the 125, which will run at the 95mph limit, and the average speed of the other trains on that line will probably be between 70 and 80mph.

Thanks in advance for any help!
(See what I did there?)

 

[KotangaGirl]

The first thing I noticed in your description is that you have a red or Home signal after your invisible signal.
The invisible signal should always be followed by a yellow visible Distant signal and then the Home signal.
Without the visible Distant signal between the invisible signal and the Home signal what you've done is create the same problem you started with.

Image courtesy of the IGG Website.

https://signalbox.org/ is a useful website to learn all about British signalling practice. Be aware though that Trainz hasn't read any signalling manuals and sometimes it will frustratingly go its own way.

 

[Smileyman]

Ahh, right.
Having read a bit about signalling from your link, and reading your post, I get it now.

Having trouble finding modern coloured-light distant signals in Trainz or on the DLS.
Plenty of semaphores, but no lights.
They're probably there, but I can't find them.
It's difficult for the uninitiated!

There must be a 2-aspect UK yellow/green signal for Trainz, right?

Proper signalling has always seemed like a dark art to me, so I've avoided it for decades, opting for simplifying everything.
It's time to learn.

 

[Smileyman]

Wait!
I found one.

It's by Nexus, and once I used the term 2ad, it popped up.
Hope it's compatible with EITs.
I read a thread over on British Trainz Forums where they were discussing this, and that thread was dated 2017, and Nexus' uploads are dated 2018, so I hope that means that they are.

Let's find out!

Thanks for all your help KotangaGirl.

 

[KotangaGirl]

Thanks for all your help KotangaGirl.

Not a problem at all, - glad to help.
Unfortunately I know not a thing about modern coloured light signals as for me it's semaphores all the way.

 

[wilts747]

Trainz run on a comprehensive list of rules and conditions, the majority of which are well over 20 years old, and we the users frequently incorrectly refer to as AI. Factors associated with load, acceleration and de-acceleration/braking are all built into Trainz, as are the basic signalling rules for the many countries Trainz enable us to model. Unfortunately Trainz does not always integrate these rules, conditions and features well, resulting in a blanket speed reduction when approaching amber signals unlike a real world driver who would manage speed with an understanding of the route, conditions and the train being driven.

In practice in Trainz ideally two completely free blocks needs to be maintained between trains to enable constant running at full speed while the block needs to be of sufficient length to enable the train to stop before any red signals once the preceding amber signal has been detected.

When driving yourself you can however manage these short comings but even then only when the route creator has taking into account the physics of track conditions and breaking. For example, a BR Class 43 travelling at 100mph, or a BR Class 66, fully loaded, at 50mph, would each require close on 1 mile to stop under emergency braking, with good track conditions, and much further under normal safe operations. Trainz is no different, signals need to be spaced and trains appropriately separated to accommodate the maximum speed for a given track if you wish to create realism. Its a balancing act, speed, block length and track capacity.

The operation of trains in semaphore and light signalled track is different and there are a stack of videos on YouTube which can explain the differences far better than I. The distant signal in semaphore does not define the block, it is there to speed up the flow of traffic. What you seem to be doing by using invisible signal is to create multiple short blocks which in one respect will likely reduce the half speed running solving one issue but could equally result in a number of closely following trains appearing between two visible signals creating another.

As for light equivalents of a distant signal, asset, Sig 2AD BR Post Std LHS (kuid2:45317:102489:1) I believe is a 2 lamp green/amber signal but I don’t know how it performs in use. There is also an invisible and gantry versions of this signal on the DLS but a word of warning, not all Sig 2AD are green/amber, others are green/red.

The link below is to a handy reference which may be of use. Peter

https://staff.ecs-ltd.uk/files/nwr_handbooks/rs521-iss-9.pdf

 

[Smileyman]

Hi Peter.

You make some very good points, and clearly put.

Trainz AI doesn't help matters, as you say, but I've beaten that to death and N3V still seem reluctant to create a decent AI for drivers.
If anything, it wouldn't need to be 'better' AI, in fact they just need to obey the rules of the railway, without being able to turn around or find their own path (thank heavens for pguy and EIT/MCM).
After 20+ years, I'm still baffled by N3V's decision on this.

And of course, you're right.
We should call it 'old-school gaming AI' to distinguish it from our soon-to-be overlords modern AI.

We know that the current Trainz AI calculates the stopping distances it needs when it sees a speed sign down the line, and gets it right every time (pretty much), so it could easily work out 'when' it needed to start slowing down when it sees an amber signal, rather than acting on it the moment it sees it from 1-2 miles away!
That would make HUGE difference to the realism.

Anyway, back to signalling.
Yes, luckily I did see that 2 aspect signal with the red stop colour, so avoided using that one.
I have all the official track speeds for the line, but I couldn't find an official reference for the positioning of signals (which would have been useful).
I do have several videos of cab rides using that line though, in both direction, and I lived about 100 feet away from the line for many years, so I should be able to get a good representation of the signalling by the time I've finished this section.
Again, what Trainz AI will make of it is another thing. (ahem).

I have to say thanks for that PDF link!
What a resource that is for someone trying to get to grips with all the terminology and types of signals.
Anyone reading this who, like me, always planned on bothering to learn about signalling 'one day', just download that PDF.
I opened it to have a quick read, and spent more than half hour before being able to close it!

Thanks for the help.
It's appreciated.

 

[stovepipe]

The Sig 2AD type of signal would typically be used instead of a distant semaphore signal, when the distant needed to be so far away, or in a position such that it could not easily be operated by mechanical means, and then later on as a part-modernisation of a route still using absolute block, or electric token block.

Which line is this? It is possible to get signal locations from old maps if this is a UK route.

 

[Smileyman]

Which line is this? It is possible to get signal locations from old maps if this is a UK route.

It's the South Wales Mainline (SWML), and it's the stretch from Newport Station to Severn Tunnel Junction.
Like I said, using video cab rides I can estimate where the signals are, but it would be useful if there were maps available.

 

[ianrein]

Ahh, right.
Having read a bit about signalling from your link, and reading your post, I get it now.

Having trouble finding modern coloured-light distant signals in Trainz or on the DLS.
Plenty of semaphores, but no lights.
They're probably there, but I can't find them.
It's difficult for the uninitiated!

There must be a 2-aspect UK yellow/green signal for Trainz, right?

Proper signalling has always seemed like a dark art to me, so I've avoided it for decades, opting for simplifying everything.
It's time to learn.

Hi UK 2, 3, 4 aspect should be installed but if not go to Launch Window
Select Manage Content and under Filter
Select Download Station
In Search Bar type UK 2, 3, or 4 Aspect
or all four and wait for download
you should then find them in Signaling tab