Signalling a Siding

[Sukerfish]

Hello,

I am struggling to achieve the correct aspects with JR's signals on a simple passing loop. My current arrangement is 08s on each track at both ends and on the main at each end, because that is how FEC (the railway I'm modeling) does it. However, every time I have the AI routed through the passing loop, I get a limited clear on the south end (which sometimes acts weird, see screenshot) and a clear on the north end. I have tried using 08-1s on each end of the main, but that produces a medium clear. I have each main's path defined with only one junction because of having 08s at each end of the loop (which is ~2 miles long).

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated, this is quite frustrating... Thanks!

This is how "limited clear" gets displayed sometimes:

 

[JCitron]

Sometimes you have to detour from the prototype and use something that works with the AI.

Where I live the local railroad also uses Type 08s and I ran in to the same situation. I found that Type 06s on the point like you have your Typo 08s works. I generally use Type 08s where there is a junction of main lines coming in.

John

 

[JohnnyC1]

Place invisible signals, I use the "L5 Invisible" types they are on the DLS, behind the 08's on each end of the siding.


John

 

[jlp1551]

I've had to experiment with invisible signals myself. Sometimes, when the signals won't work like they should, just add invisible signals. If the desired results are not achieved, just delete it and try something else. You should get things to work the way you want, just trial and error!

 

[Sukerfish]

Ah. Okay. So the game itself is limited... That is what I feared.

I will toy with invisible signal placement, I hadn't thought of that. I'll post back if I discover a solution

Thanks to all!

 

[norfolksouthern37]

simply place the signals and configure the straight path correctly for the junction. do not confuse the operation with invisible signals.

at this point there is not enough information to correct any problems. please show exactly what you are trying to do.

 

[jlp1551]

Don't forget to procrastinate first!

 

[Sukerfish]

Here is a rough diagram of my situation (I haven't expanded on any of the short leads or spurs and left some off for simplicity, but none of them have signals anywhere on them):

All signals except for 7 and 8 are 08s. Signal 7 is an 05 intermediate going north and an 06 intermediate going south. Signal 8 is an 06 intermediate going North and 05 intermediate going south.

Signal 1 is only defined for a single left junction because of the 08 before the next junction on track 1 (signal 4). Signals 4 and 5 have their shortest paths defined through to signal 9.

I am happy to clarify things further and appreciate the assistance!

P.S. I won't forget to procrastinate!

 

[norfolksouthern37]

All signals except for 7 and 8 are 08s. Signal 7 is an 05 intermediate going north and an 06 intermediate going south. Signal 8 is an 06 intermediate going North and 05 intermediate going south.

this seems correct to me.

Signal 1 is only defined for a single left junction because of the 08 before the next junction on track 1 (signal 4).

correct, signal 1 should be a single L

Signals 4 and 5 have their shortest paths defined through to signal 9.

this is unnecessary. defining the path that far will only confuse the situation as the signal cannot and should not read junctions beyond area 7 (it can read directional occupancy to the next 2 absolute signals but not govern junctions, as those should be handled by the local signal). they should only be configured to path the immediate junctions they protect. there is also usually no good reason to tie the spur tracks into it, as they are not a primary route and the signal will not gain any information from this.

aside from this, i am still seeing no issue with the current operation of the signals.

oh and to address the limited aspect being stuck in an off state, this is a catch from the signals changing state too quickly. it can usually resolve itself.

 

[Sukerfish]

Alright, thank you. Glad to know I'm on the right track.

However, this is where I get confused:

this is unnecessary. defining the path that far will only confuse the situation as the signal cannot and should not read junctions beyond area 7 (it can read directional occupancy to the next 2 absolute signals but not govern junctions, as those should be handled by the local signal). they should only be configured to path the immediate junctions they protect. there is also usually no good reason to tie the spur tracks into it, as they are not a primary route and the signal will not gain any information from this.

If I understand correctly, the 08s at 4 and 5 should only be defined through the convergence into the mainline and I should not include L,R,L,etc. beyond this? Also, I am still unsure of what constitutes an "absolute" signal compared to one that is not... Something perhaps worth noting is that there are nearly 10 miles between passing loops.

I seem to have left out one of my main concerns in my original post (no idea how!). If the AI is routed through track 2 of the siding, signal 1 displays a limited clear and it drops the speed limit to 15MPH. The AI is then stuck at this speed unless I place invisible speed signals on the siding... Is this simply what I will have to do?

Your help is greatly appreciated, thank you!

 

[norfolksouthern37]

If I understand correctly, the 08s at 4 and 5 should only be defined through the convergence into the mainline and I should not include L,R,L,etc.

that will suffice yes.

Also, I am still unsure of what constitutes an "absolute" signal compared to one that is not...

absolute signals can display an absolute STOP indication, where as a permissive signal displays a stop and proceed. this can vary amongst rules but generally the permissive signal has some item affixed to it to specify. a number plate for example.

Something perhaps worth noting is that there are nearly 10 miles between passing loops.

this is fine. iirc max distance before a signal will give up looking (to find a train or another signal) is 26 miles.

I seem to have left out one of my main concerns in my original post (no idea how!). If the AI is routed through track 2 of the siding, signal 1 displays a limited clear and it drops the speed limit to 15MPH. The AI is then stuck at this speed unless I place invisible speed signals on the siding... Is this simply what I will have to do?

limited speed is not 15, so if that is the case there is some error in the asset config, but yes the general idea is that there will be a speedpost after the signal displaying the line speed. this is typical in real life too.

 

[Sukerfish]

Excellent, that makes sense.

limited speed is not 15, so if that is the case there is some error in the asset config, but yes the general idea is that there will be a speedpost after the signal displaying the line speed. this is typical in real life too.

I will try simply reinstalling the signals from JR's website and see if that amends the error.

I appreciate all your help, thanks again!

 

[jordon412]

The signals with '05' in them are 'permissive' signals. They can be identified by the little 'plates' underneath the signal, where you can put the signal's name on it. '06 Intermediate/Distant' signals are, if I'm correct, also permissive signals. On the single-track mainline on my routes, I place the intermediate/distant signals as the last one before a '06 LD' or '06 RD' signal, with the '05' signals being placed along the single track mainline between the intermediate/distant signals at each end of the single-track mainline. I use the '04' signals ONLY at the end of passing sidings, or the end of a double-track mainline. I use the '08' signals in special cases. For example, one route has a branchline diverging off of a double-track mainline, with each track being 'one-way'. I have a crossover located before the switch that the branchline begins at to allow trains from either mainline to access the branchline.

 

[Sukerfish]

Thank you for the clarifications jordon. I just tried using 06 LD/RD signals and got the precise results I wanted... If this is what I have to do, I will, but I was really hoping to be able to use 08s because that is more prototypical here.

I tried both the safetran and searchlight 08s and both throttle limited speed back to 15MPH... I also re-downloaded the pack from JR and installed it and I still get this...

[5 minutes later after trying one more thing...]

But I found the culprit! For this stretch of track going north I had not defined a speed limit for the main. If I started the AI right before the signal like I have been, it defaults to no speed limit, meaning 40MPH. I placed a speed limit sign before the signal and still got my limited clear, just not the 15MPH limit!

Thank you to all for the help!

 

[boleyd]

If a new customer decided to create a route and had this typical layout, they would be at a loss. Another case where a railroad enthusiast needs some organization of assets for their attempts at building a route. As an example, explanations of the signals above showed subtle interactions between signals. Discovering that took several messages. Imagine a new customer getting into this fix.

And I discount anyone who says a new customer should not try this. They should be allowed to do as they choose and have a reasonable chance of success but it will take organized information. This series of messages illustrates that need.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

If a new customer decided to create a route and had this typical layout, they would be at a loss. Another case where a railroad enthusiast needs some organization of assets for their attempts at building a route. As an example, explanations of the signals above showed subtle interactions between signals. Discovering that took several messages. Imagine a new customer getting into this fix.

And I discount anyone who says a new customer should not try this. They should be allowed to do as they choose and have a reasonable chance of success but it will take organized information. This series of messages illustrates that need.

what are you on about?

i created these signals and i would say they are advanced level items. a new 'customer' should learn a thing or two about using the sim before attempting to install a signal system anyhow. nobody but you can be held responsible if you want to start at expert level.

 

[Dap]

If a new customer decided to create a route and had this typical layout, they would be at a loss. Another case where a railroad enthusiast needs some organization of assets for their attempts at building a route. As an example, explanations of the signals above showed subtle interactions between signals. Discovering that took several messages. Imagine a new customer getting into this fix.

And I discount anyone who says a new customer should not try this. They should be allowed to do as they choose and have a reasonable chance of success but it will take organized information. This series of messages illustrates that need.

Dick, may we assume you are creating a tutorial that explains how railroad signals work, thus allowing the next "new customer" to get through this with less work?