Request for Bendorsey.

[smash]

Ben,
I would like to ask a favor of you. When you get time would you please make a bridge for me and the trainz community. I do NOT need this for any particular reason, just found it and that I would like to see it in trainz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Bridge
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/SteelBridgePano1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/SteelBridgeOpen1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/SteelBridgeHAER.png
http://en.structurae.de/structures/data/photos.cfm?ID=s0005471
http://www.crossmarkdesign.com/photography/uploaded_images
/IMG_0199-copy-716040.jpg
(above two from here:
http://www.crossmarkdesign.com/photography/labels/City.html )
http://www.animonstate.com/Crossing the Steel Bridge.JPG




From Google maps.

I could not find over all specs for the bridge. So I did some "Redneck Ingineering". Aka taking measurements on the pics. I came out with an overall length of about 750 to 800 feet.
I hope this helps.
Thank you for you time.
Kenny.

 

[NIARTcar]

I would like to see this bridge in trainz too, ive always loved this area of portland, the layout of the tracks is very fun, and i think this area really shows what city railroading should look like!:wave:

edit: this is just my two sense...but:
what if we created a double deck bridge system where one could create bridges that have one deck for trains and one for cars/ LRVs
with different structure types and designs......

 

[smash]

Just a friendly bump.
Kenny

 

[bendorsey]

Hi Kenny:

Thanks for the PM. I missed this thread.

I've already made some bridges with both trains and autos on them so this shouldn't be a problem. I've captured the photos and info and saved it to a folder.

In looking at them it would appear there were 2-tracks for normal trains on the lower level and a highway with what appears to be streetcar tracks on the upper level. That can be done (I can eliminate the streetcar tracks if you wish).

What you need to do is make a decision. I can make this bridge in 3 ways:
1. Normally open and close at the approach of a train. This is how I normally make movable RR bridges (but its gonna be hard on the auto traffic, lol).
2. Normally closed and open at the approach of a boat in the water which has been configured like a locomotive running on invisible tracks in the water. The train will stop when the bridge opens. It is possible to also make the automotive traffic too.
3. Not animated at all.

Your choice?

I have one bridge ahead of you so you can think about for a few days.

Ben

 

[smash]

Thanks,
For me I think the streetcar lines can go. As for animation I would like to see #1.
Again thank you for your time.
Kenny

 

[jkinzel]

Ben, this will be greatly appreciated by many of us.
Because it has auto traffic, I would think closed and open only for vessel traffic would be most appropriate.
I would like the street car line, but is not important.
Smash, thank you for requesting this and supplying the information, and Ben, thank you for considering making it.

 

[Pencil42]

In real life, that bridge is normally closed - most large ships don't go past it any more. Note also that the lower deck can be raised independently of the upper deck (wouldn't that be fun to animate? ).

 

[bendorsey]

Hi Guys:

All animated bridges use invisible road and/or track to get cars and trains across the span. The road and rails you see are fake (parts that look like road or track). If I make it as normally open - cars will be flying thru the air (with the greatest of ease, lol).

Making it as normally closed and open at the apprach of a boat solves that problem as does making it non-animated.

I haven't looked at the pics very closely as yet but a lower moveable deck independent of the upper seems decidedly odd (not that it couldn't be doone but why?

Perhaps I'll make 2 versions - with and without streetcar tracks.

Ben

 

[smash]

Ben,if you want go ahead and make open to boat traffic. It may be easier on us who use it in the end.
Kenny

 

[Johnda1237]

Thanks Ben!

Hi Ben,

I just want to say that you creating all those cars that can be renamed via the config file is a great touch of genius. I've been using your TOTC pullman cars for a long while, and just discovered your other cars including freight and MOW cars that have the same ability. What a great idea for those who want to name cars after their own railroad, but are not comfortable with paint programs.

Thanks!

 

[bendorsey]

Hi Johnda:

Your welcome. It seemed like a good way to do it so folks could easily re-name them for thier favorite lines. They were used by many many different ones.The Harriman series works the same way. As for re-skinning - PSP8 hates me, lol.

BTW -I've started on this bridge and Pencil42 is correct. The lower deck could be raised independently from the upper level. Lower level raised by 46 ft - upper by 93 ft. I doubt I can do that without scripting and frankly I don't think its worth the effort so the animation will be for both at the same time which should be interesting since the lower deck has to rise until its even with the upper deck then both continue to the top.

Ben

 

[bendorsey]

Yo Kenny:

Questions:

1. Did the lower tracks curve in the same direction at both ends of the bridge (like a letter "U") or did they curve in opposite directions (like a letter "S")?

2. Any idea as to the radius of the curve. Its obviously quite sharp as seen in the pics.

Its coming along (and driving me crazy, lol). Quite an interesting project.

Ben

 

[themnax]

i lived in portland for a while in the 1980's and remember the steel bridge, both before and after they added the max light rail to the upper, street deck.

if i recall correctly, it was normally in the all down, rail and highway traffic position and only raised to allow water traffic.

also the lower rail deck could be, and often was, raised independently, up to below the highway deck, of course, without the highway deck having to be raised. only when more clearance was needed were they both raised.

unless of course my memory is mixing this one up with another one that did that somewhere.

i can answer 1, and 2 for sure though:


1. Did the lower tracks curve in the same direction at both ends of the bridge (like a letter "U") or did they curve in opposite directions (like a letter "S")?

definitely an "s". (only a few degrees of arc at the station end, almost a full 90 past the bridge on the opposite shore)

2. Any idea as to the radius of the curve. Its obviously quite sharp as seen in the pics.

the bridge is right at the end of the union station throat on the town side of the river, and the radius there is MUCH broader then it would look foreshortened in a telephoto lens. the other end is still broad enough to be reasonable for mainline freight and amtrak, though perhaps sharp enough to require some speed restriction, beyond that imposed by its environment.

 

[bendorsey]

I intend to make it normally closed and to open at the approach of a boat in the water that has been configured as an engine running on invisible track in the water. I've made several like this before so its not a problem. When the bridge starts to open it will automatically stop the automotive traffic but not the railroad and streetcar traffic. However - rail traffic can be stopped by adding some stuff in surveyor. I will put that info in a README file in the folder.

I'd think the lower deck was normally up so small boats could pass without the operator having to raise and lower it all the time. It would only close at the approach of a train. When a large boat approached the operator would raise the lower and upper decks to the topmost position. To me this seems the most efficient way to do it but it also depends on the level of water bourne traffic (which might be small nowdays).

OK on the tracks as an "S". Thanks.

I've made a few dual use bridges and separating the road and rails can be a problem. Obviously the road can make a sharper curve but in most cases it seems to be the rails that diverge. In this case it depends on what kind of structure is used to support the upper deck (looks like a deck plate girder from the photos). They are rarely longer then 100ft but if the depth is increased they can be longer. There is a "rule-of-thumb" in bridge engineering that says "the length of the truss should not be longer then 11 times its depth otherwise the tension and compression values get out of whack and things come tumbling down. The radius of the tracks will determine the length of the dpg. I'll play with a few different ones as I have quite a library of re-usable parts (saves me a lot of time not having to re-invent the wheel everytime I start a new bridge, lol).

Working on the towers at the moment. Center and approach spans are done.

Ben

 

[NIARTcar]

If I may suggest, to stop and start traffic on the bridge you may employ tha ATLS system with inverse slaves, so that when trainz approach it activates the bridge and the invisable crossings which (in this case) allow the traffic to move...

 

[bendorsey]

I'm not familiar with that method and frankly have never even used the method I'll put in the README file as I almost never run Trainz to actually run a train on a route. I just keep a single blank baseboard to test items I make. The method I will mention does work. It was generated by other folks some time ago and sent to me to put in the README files of the other bridges I've made that trigger at the approach of a boat in the water. Yours might be better - I just don't know. Give you and others something to try (might be an interesting experiment).

Ben

 

[NIARTcar]

If you would like, I could take a screenshot and mark it up to show you the thought process more clearly, just give me a shout if you need it.

good day, Nick

 

[bendorsey]

The method used on my bridges doesn't require anything extra in the mesh. Its all done with track markers and stuff like that (which I know zero, zilch, and nothing about).

On the other hand I can put extra stuff in so folks can also make it work by your method. I wouldn't think it would have any effect on the other method so go ahead and send me a screenie.

Ben

 

[Pencil42]

Hi Ben,

The bridge is definately normally down (of course, your model could be whichever way you choose.)
Another side elevation (to scale, with the main span lengths dimensioned): http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/or/or0300/or0316/sheet/00003r.tif
There's another section on HABS - http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/hhh.or0291
Also, the 'bird's eye view' feature of Microsoft's Bing maps can show some details (as a bonus, it appears that at least one of the angles was shot during 'Fleet Week', with a number of Navy ships visiting
http://www.bing.com/maps/default.as...0&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=5570599&encType=1

Hope that helps?
Curtis

 

[bendorsey]

Hi Curtis:

More pics and info always help tho one of the things I already had was a plan with dimensions. I'm not certain how to treat the ends. Both look quite complex with all the diverging routes, etc. Might be difficult to do in Trainz.

Most of it is made. Working on the animation and thats driving me nuts. Moveable bridges are done as mocrossings to take advantage of code buiilt into Trainz to automatically trigger the animation at the approach of a train (at around 80 meters). All the animated parts must be in the same image file and it must be 18,000 polys or less. So far I've got it down to 22,750 polys. The cause is 20 large diameter spoked wheels which will look great animated. Been deleting unseen faces, etc all day yesterday. Might have to change the wheels themselves (less sides).

I'm going to make it normally closed. The lower deck and associated pulleys and counter weights start moving as required. When its in position at the bottom of the upper deck, it and its associated pulleys and counter weights start moving as required too. All together 26 animated items (gonna be a nightmare, lol).

BTW - I like the Broadway and Burnside bridges. If your interested in them all it takes is pics and info.

Ben