Need sage advice about how to drive the C&O H8 2-6-6-6!

[chrispearce]

Hello all,

I have recently bought the Hinton Subdivision New River Mining session. The H8 is superb. However I am having a problem driving it downhill with an awful lot of loaded coal gondolas. The final stretch of track into Thurmond (which starts near to a mine which features another H8 loading up) is an average 2% down grade. The speed limit is 20mph and with zero regulator plus full train and individual brake at 100% application my train just accelerates until I break the speed limit. Even from a stationery start, gravity and the weight of the train propel me relentlessly! I even tried running the loco in reverse to try to slow things up but all I achieved was a derailment.

How do I keep control of the train? I have come to the conclusion that I am an able driver provided the track is flat or going uphill. As for downhill I am something of an accident waiting to happen.

Advice PLEASE!!!!!

 

[nimec]

Hi Chris
It would seem there is something wrong with the brakes on that loco. They are extremely slow to operate. Sure the trains heavy, but they should be quicker than that
I just tried it for you and even when the brake was applied 5-6 mph below a speed limit, the speed still crept up 2-5 mph above it and the emergency stop would cut in. From the mine, its a challenging piece of track and on the section into Thurbold I had the same problem as you. The speed was 19mph, the limit 25mph with the approaching Thurbold yard 20 mph limit 280 yds ahead when I applied the brakes, but even though I applied them as hard and as quickly as I could to anticipate that new slower limit ahead, the speed crept up to 27 mph and the emergency brake cut in. I only tried it once though but noticed that the brakes were very slow to operate on each application on the way form the mine.
Make sure you are using the train brake [A] not the independent [E] Perhaps the only way around it is DCC but that is not a good enough answer. Cheers

Edit" Sorry that was Newlyn yards, Still have to get to Thurmond

2nd Edit: Well I limped into Thurmond at 12 mph after recovering from an emergency stop for speeding. I suffered either 4 or emergency stops on the way between Newlyn and Thurmond. Very frustrating as it was practically impossible to control the speed. If I applied the brakes at 15 mph even thought the brake cylinders had the full 54 psi, the speed increased to 25 mph and the emergency stop cut in so I then tried the brake application at 12 mph and the same thing happened each time. The last time I braked at10 mph and the gradient also levelled out a bit so this is how I got to control it at 12 mph into Thurbold.
I'm not going to try it again tonight but I suspect that in that section where the down gradient is >3% for much of it, then you will have to bring the train to a stop each time with each application, then let it roll quietly away again. Hope this is of some help
Cheers

 

[Bill69]

There is more than one way around this, the simple way is to add a helper at the rear of the train, the additional braking of the helper can often overcome the increase in speed.

A more complicated way is to modify the e-spec, specifically the flow container and the pressure container in the e-spec. But be warned you can stuff up the e-spec if you don't know anything about modifying e-specs, so make a clone of the e-spec first and work on the clone. That way if it gets out of hand you can revert to the original e-spec. I don't have that loco so can't be very helpful with specifics.

Cheers,
Bill69

 

[nimec]

HI Chris, well I got 4/5 th's of the way through the session and gave up. Frustrating low speed limits and the ugly tree colours of shocking pink or lemon was enough to make me throw in the towel. To make it worse there was no environment tab I could use change to change the season of the scenery. It was not good

Because of the slow application of the loco brake I switched to DCC to negotiate Thurmond yard run around and turn the loco but the turntable is to small for that loco and only 3/4 of the loco fits onto it but wonder upon wonder it still turned even though the loco buried its nose in the cliff behind it as it turned!!

From that point on for the rest of the session with the speed limits varying between 15mph and 25 mph occasionally up to 35mph, it became quite unrealistic. In my case if I was distracted for any reason and the speed went 4 mph over the limit, the emergency brake came on each time again, so in my mind its more than the loco that needs fixed The speed limits after Thurmond need raising, or the emergency brake rule removed so that the session is playable.

I still suspect the session may have been made for DCC driving rather than cab driving as any time I held the S button down to long to shut the regulator, instead of the number going back to 0 it would go to something like -69.99, a condition I have only noticed previously on a loco designed for DCC but run in Cab control. Bill69's message above is right on the button about the loco and in my mind it also needs the speed limits increased to make it playable. Cheers

 

[RPearson]

Chris, sorry I just looked at this thread.

I have recently bought the Hinton Subdivision New River Mining session. The H8 is superb.

From this I assume the H8 is gawpo50's payware version. I don't have this one. What espec does he use for his H8? I would also check what the mass tags in the loco's config and tender's config. Also a custom loco script and/or cab script can effect how the train handles. I started my own espec for Ben Neal's H8 but didn't test it out at all. If the consist mass is realistic for the prototype loco then you should be able to control it if the espec is correct. And by that I don't mean that all the characticistic parameters must match the actual loco's. My own experience indicates that I can't match real performance characteristics of the loco (in Trainz) unless I make a number of modifications to those values.

@nimec

I still suspect the session may have been made for DCC driving rather than cab driving as any time I held the S button down to long to shut the regulator, instead of the number going back to 0 it would go to something like -69.99, a condition I have only noticed previously on a loco designed for DCC but run in Cab control.

Using the "s" key to close the regulator should have a lower limit of 0. This is controlled by the script file used by the cab. I usually use my own version of the defaultsteamcabin.gs that modifies a number of methods defined in this script. To avoid problems as you describe in all of my versions I have have modifed the key handler, void UserPressKey(string s), from what's in the default script. The problem as you can see below is that the down regulator code permits both + and - vaules for the regulator setting. This is a fundemantal error as far as I'm concerned. And it's been in the scripts for a long time. Steam cabin regulators should only have + values between 0.0f and 1.0f. The problem code is highlited in red below. In my scripts I also explicitly set a lower limit of 0.0f and an upper one of 1.0f.

                else if (s == "steam-regulator-down")
		{
			if (regulator_lever)
			{
				float value = regulator_lever.GetValue();
				
				if (value >= 0.29f  [COLOR="#FF0000"]or  value <= -0.29f[/COLOR])
					value = value - 0.1f;
				else
					value = value - 0.05f;

				regulator_lever.SetValue(value);
				loco.SetEngineSetting("regulator", regulator_lever.GetValue());
			}
		}

		else if (s == "steam-reverser-up")
		{
			if (reverser_lever)
			{
				float value = reverser_lever.GetValue();

				value = value + 0.0666f;

				reverser_lever.SetValue(value);
				loco.SetEngineSetting("reverser", reverser_lever.GetValue());
			}
		}

to something like this:

                else if (s == "steam-regulator-down")
		{
			if (regulator_lever)
			{
				float value = regulator_lever.GetValue();
				if (value >= 0.29f)
					value = value - 0.1f;
				else
					value = value - 0.05f;
                                if (value<0.0f)
                                        value = 0.0f;
				regulator_lever.SetValue(value);
				loco.SetEngineSetting("regulator", regulator_lever.GetValue());
			}
		}

		else if (s == "steam-reverser-up")
		{
			if (reverser_lever)
			{
				float value = reverser_lever.GetValue();
				value = value + 0.0666f;
                                if(value>1.0f)
                                       value = 1.0f;
				reverser_lever.SetValue(value);
				loco.SetEngineSetting("reverser", reverser_lever.GetValue());
			}
		}

This is for a custom script and not necessarily a generic one. By that I mean I know that the regulator control in this cabin's config actually uses a range of 0 to 1.

I don't know why the original key handler code for down regulator allows negative values for the control since no steam requlator control should. For DCC control the game does not use this key handler method so any argument that it's required for that is nonsense.

I do not modify the scripts supplied by the game and no one should IMO. I write my own versions. In this case simply inheriting from the defaultsteamcabine class and overwritting the key handler would work. I do have to edit the configs for the cab assets that I want to use my script.

Bob Pearson

 

[pitmilly]

Hello all,
I have been following "Steam Locomotive Operating Tips" and have just picked up on this thread. The only comment I can offer is that I have driven both the "New River Mining Run" and the "Quinnamont Coal Drag" using "Realistic Mode" throughout,. These two programmes present quite different problems but with the former I found it necessary to keep the speed very low at the start of the descent and never let it exceed 10-12 mph all the way down to Thurmond. I cannot say whether my success was attributable to the level of control offered by "Realistic Mode", only that it can be done. However the various responses to your question prompt a few of my own.
1. For say TANE, build 88364, what is the accepted/preferred method for driving All steam locomotives that are available with this software in either "PayWare", "Built-In Content" or available for download on the DLS? Is the standard"Easy or Realistic Mode" the norm, or do the professionals stand by the use of the Keyboard/Shift/Spacebar for optimum results?
2. Can "Realistic Mode" and the numeric keypad etc be used interchangeably and in combination with each other to achieve a good driving experience, e.g. general driving plus switching the blower on/off.
3. Having loaded TANE, selected my "Session", then selected "Realistic Mode", according to my "QuickDrive" Main Menu Screens, I can then select: a.) Cab Interior View; b.) Chase View; c.) Lineside View; d.) Free Roaming View: or e.) Map View. As such, what are "Cab" "DCC" and/or "Advanced" modes of driving? While they are used by your correspondents, I have not seen any of these terms used in the Menu Screens for TANE, TS12 or TS2(Mac). Is this terminology a holdover from earlier versions of Trainz or other programmes? How does it relate to the current terminology?
Regards
Pitmilly

 

[jjanmarine3]

Hi guys. I use the reversor to help with braking which works very well. Just don't go into the opposite direction suddenly and watch the incline or decline all the time for full marks .

 

[pitmilly]

I agree totally with janmarine about using the cut-off/reverser to control speed on a descent - also very useful when controlling movement at a coal tipple.
regards
Pitmilly

 

[Bill69]

Hello all,
I have been following "Steam Locomotive Operating Tips" and have just picked up on this thread. The only comment I can offer is that I have driven both the "New River Mining Run" and the "Quinnamont Coal Drag" using "Realistic Mode" throughout,. These two programmes present quite different problems but with the former I found it necessary to keep the speed very low at the start of the descent and never let it exceed 10-12 mph all the way down to Thurmond. I cannot say whether my success was attributable to the level of control offered by "Realistic Mode", only that it can be done. However the various responses to your question prompt a few of my own.
1. For say TANE, build 88364, what is the accepted/preferred method for driving All steam locomotives that are available with this software in either "PayWare", "Built-In Content" or available for download on the DLS? Is the standard"Easy or Realistic Mode" the norm, or do the professionals stand by the use of the Keyboard/Shift/Spacebar for optimum results?
2. Can "Realistic Mode" and the numeric keypad etc be used interchangeably and in combination with each other to achieve a good driving experience, e.g. general driving plus switching the blower on/off.
3. Having loaded TANE, selected my "Session", then selected "Realistic Mode", according to my "QuickDrive" Main Menu Screens, I can then select: a.) Cab Interior View; b.) Chase View; c.) Lineside View; d.) Free Roaming View: or e.) Map View. As such, what are "Cab" "DCC" and/or "Advanced" modes of driving? While they are used by your correspondents, I have not seen any of these terms used in the Menu Screens for TANE, TS12 or TS2(Mac). Is this terminology a holdover from earlier versions of Trainz or other programmes? How does it relate to the current terminology?
Regards
Pitmilly

Hi Pitmilly,

To answer your question about the views. Cab interior view puts you inside the cab, you can then move around the cab using the [ and ] keys on the keyboard.
Chase view puts you outside the cab but following the loco or which ever item of rolling stock you click on. Free roaming view puts you on the terrain allowing you to move any where on the route. Map view brings up the map of the route initially following the train but able to move anywhere on the route by using the Ctrl + arrow keys. Lineside view is a bit different, if there is a camera placed near where you go to lineside view you will get a view as though you are looking through a camera, however if there is no camera you will get the same view as in chase view.

To answer your question about the driving modes. Advanced mode is the same as CAB mode, in T;ANE you get a display of cab controls at the bottom right of your screen, you can use these to control the loco if you are in chase view, other wise you can control the loco with the mouse if you are in cab interior view.
In CAB mode you can also control the loco by using the key pad, "*" to increase the cutoff "/" to decrease the cutoff, "8" to open the regulator (throttle) "2" to decrease the regulator, "3" to apply the brakes "9" to release the brakes "6" for brake lap, "1" to toggle the fire door open/close. you still have to use the keyboard for other controls such as blower, sanding, shovel coal, injectors, and the whistle.

Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Bill69