I wonder if my Grandchildren...
- Thread starter Euphod
- Start date
Meh, its a step in the right direction. This country needs to invest in rail if it wants to be a modern country. Europe figured this out, granted the distances are far smaller. But There should be three primary modes of transportation. Car, Air, AND Rail, all with their own advantages. Rail cannot compete right now, and it needs to
Now....if his plan is going to work or not, or if its even the right course, only time will tell. But at least America's rail infrastructure is getting some needed attention
Now....if his plan is going to work or not, or if its even the right course, only time will tell. But at least America's rail infrastructure is getting some needed attention
Thanks Mr. Logistics Manager...
The speed of 150mph suggests that they plan to use steel-wheel on steel-rail...
It's definantly a start, definantly needed...
Just think what Tampa to LA would be like at 250mph on a maglev...Were talking 12hours running time!
An yes, the world record is 315mph on s/w-s/r.
I hope that national rail mass-transit kicks the airlines butts!
The speed of 150mph suggests that they plan to use steel-wheel on steel-rail...It's definantly a start, definantly needed...
Just think what Tampa to LA would be like at 250mph on a maglev...Were talking 12hours running time!
An yes, the world record is 315mph on s/w-s/r.
I hope that national rail mass-transit kicks the airlines butts!
Yeah me too! The last time I flew anyway they said I was too fat, and that I would have to buy two seats. So I did, and when I boarded, I found out they weren't even NEXT TO EACH OTHER!
Wow Ed,Yeah me too! The last time I flew anyway they said I was too fat, and that I would have to buy two seats. So I did, and when I boarded, I found out they weren't even NEXT TO EACH OTHER!
Have you got a split personality and they can't stand to be near each other??
Nathan
magickmaker
New member
heh. I actually have a card that I got from my grandmother on my father's side while she was still alive. This card, originally issued as part of the L&N, then renewed by SCL, and actually recognized by Amtrak, lets me ride for free. It was part of my Great Grandfather's pension, and not something they do anymore, but basically direct descendants of his (I think even my kids, though I may be the last in the line) could ride for free so long as they had this voucher. I've used it a couple times, though once the conductor had to call a supervisor to see if they still accepted them.
It's already been proved that it's possible for rail to be very competitive with air for journeys of up to about 3 hours in Europe, Japan and elsewhere. That's around 600 miles or a little more with the latest 360kmh trains http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotrice_à_grande_vitesse . Above that, air is likely to keep much of the traffic unless rail is substantially cheaper. There are plenty of pairs of large cities in the USA under 600 miles apart, so I think there is a lot of potential, so long as it can be done competitively and economically. In most of the world, government has invested heavily in the infrastructure (like it has with highways and airports), and the operations have generally returned an operating profit for either state owned or private operators.
Steel wheel on steel rail makes sense in many ways as it allows services to run partially on existing infrastructure (many French TGV services run 2/3 of their length on conventional routes).
And £15 for 200 miles is a bargain! If that's a return trip, I make the petrol cost alone a minimum of £36 (in a 1.8 Vectra @£1/ltr) if the driving is all extra-urban. I'm more concerned about the £132 standard open return from Birmingham to London (a little over 100 miles) - but they still fill a train every 20/30 minutes in the peaks...
Just my thoughts...
Paul
Steel wheel on steel rail makes sense in many ways as it allows services to run partially on existing infrastructure (many French TGV services run 2/3 of their length on conventional routes).
And £15 for 200 miles is a bargain! If that's a return trip, I make the petrol cost alone a minimum of £36 (in a 1.8 Vectra @£1/ltr) if the driving is all extra-urban. I'm more concerned about the £132 standard open return from Birmingham to London (a little over 100 miles) - but they still fill a train every 20/30 minutes in the peaks...
Just my thoughts...
Paul
WileeCoyote
Eatibus Almost Anythingus
Well... high-speed rail may certainly be an excellent way to travel in an "earth friendly" way, but I honestly think this is more of a want than a need. Out here in Germany there already exists something of a high-speed rail network, one that has taken about two decades to build and still isn't finished. One other thing which I'm not really seeing being taken into consideration is the end cost of it all. The high-speed line connecting the two metropols of Cologne and Frankfurt am Main (exactly 173.6 kilometers in length) took seven years to complete at the cost of six billion Euros and the lives of fourteen workers. Mind you, this is just one of several lines in Germany built for the express purpose and sole use of the trains built to run on them (those of the ICE family for those of you who didn't know).
This is of course one coyote's opinion, but I think it would be wiser to improve the already existing infrastructure before taking on such a massive venture as this. I know it's not government owned or operated, but I believe the best way to start is with what we have, not what we don't have.
WileeCoyote
This is of course one coyote's opinion, but I think it would be wiser to improve the already existing infrastructure before taking on such a massive venture as this. I know it's not government owned or operated, but I believe the best way to start is with what we have, not what we don't have.
WileeCoyote
The only problem with this answer is that whilst incremental improvements will attract passengers over short distances, it will do little to reduce the need for all but the shortest haul flights. Many US railways seem to be very congested with freight traffic (at least until the current downturn), and as they are owned by the freight railroads, it seems that it will be hard to run an even moderately fast and regular service on the busier sections.
Building new capacity on those sections with most passenger potential, and upgrading freight lines where capacity is available will probably be the best answer. It's also one of the reasons why maglev probably isn't the best answer, as the whole system would have to be built from scratch.
The cost you quote for that German high speed line is very high (€34.56m/km). I've seen the French LGV Est quoted at €10m/km, and that compares reasonably well with road infrastructure. Costs in the more sparsely populated parts of the USA should not be any higher.
Paul
Building new capacity on those sections with most passenger potential, and upgrading freight lines where capacity is available will probably be the best answer. It's also one of the reasons why maglev probably isn't the best answer, as the whole system would have to be built from scratch.
The cost you quote for that German high speed line is very high (€34.56m/km). I've seen the French LGV Est quoted at €10m/km, and that compares reasonably well with road infrastructure. Costs in the more sparsely populated parts of the USA should not be any higher.
Paul
WileeCoyote
Eatibus Almost Anythingus
One thing that could be done is to do something like what has also been done here in some places, for instance between München and Ingolstadt. The part of the high-speed line there that connects München and Nürnberg runs right alongside the already existing infrastructure that has been there - at least in how the line itself was originally routed - since well before the first World War.
I am not completely sure if this would be possible in some places, but to me it makes a bit more sense to build a completely new line right next to one that already exists. In that case the freight trains can continue to run undisturbed and the passenger trains won't have to spend hours waiting for higher priority freights to pass. Another benefit is that the towns and cities reached by the already existing infrastructure will become connected to the passenger line. One downside to this however (and I'm sure there are many) is that there are no doubt some places where building a completely new line next to an already existing one would be unfeasable on account of geological factors or buildings in the way etc.
Nonetheless, whether we like it or not, I believe the king of Obamaland shall carry out his current plans for a high-speed rail network. It only remains to be seen whether he will accomplish it while he's in office, in which case I must congratulate him.
WileeCoyote
I am not completely sure if this would be possible in some places, but to me it makes a bit more sense to build a completely new line right next to one that already exists. In that case the freight trains can continue to run undisturbed and the passenger trains won't have to spend hours waiting for higher priority freights to pass. Another benefit is that the towns and cities reached by the already existing infrastructure will become connected to the passenger line. One downside to this however (and I'm sure there are many) is that there are no doubt some places where building a completely new line next to an already existing one would be unfeasable on account of geological factors or buildings in the way etc.
Nonetheless, whether we like it or not, I believe the king of Obamaland shall carry out his current plans for a high-speed rail network. It only remains to be seen whether he will accomplish it while he's in office, in which case I must congratulate him.
WileeCoyote
Though I'm not liberal in my leanings(GASP). I'm fairly juiced up about it.
My Governor endorses the Florida project from my city here in the Tampa Metro to Orlando Metro. It's shovel ready, at the top of the HSR list, and all it needs is funding from the Feds.
Here's the PDF on the latest workshop they had up in the Florida Capitol, in Talahassee: http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/uploaddocuments/FHSRA WRKSHP SLIDES 4-1-09.pdf
My Governor endorses the Florida project from my city here in the Tampa Metro to Orlando Metro. It's shovel ready, at the top of the HSR list, and all it needs is funding from the Feds.
Here's the PDF on the latest workshop they had up in the Florida Capitol, in Talahassee: http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/uploaddocuments/FHSRA WRKSHP SLIDES 4-1-09.pdf
illinoiscentral
SARM Volunteer
I support rail 100%.
We honestly need to get rid of Amtrak and begin a new system. No I'm not talking about state funded trains. That would be a :hehe: joke. Have you ever crossed over from Indiana to Illinois on a highway? THUD THUMP. Illinois' highway system sucks. If they were to make states fund rail systems, it would be a disaster.
However, a new government supported system with smart folks at the top would be ideal.
Isaac;
Florida has needed high speed rail for a long time. I hope your state gets what it deserves!
Euphod;
That was very well said. As I heard, Delta won't even give you a bag of peanuts!
Woody
We honestly need to get rid of Amtrak and begin a new system. No I'm not talking about state funded trains. That would be a :hehe: joke. Have you ever crossed over from Indiana to Illinois on a highway? THUD THUMP. Illinois' highway system sucks. If they were to make states fund rail systems, it would be a disaster.
However, a new government supported system with smart folks at the top would be ideal.
Isaac;
Florida has needed high speed rail for a long time. I hope your state gets what it deserves!
Euphod;
That was very well said. As I heard, Delta won't even give you a bag of peanuts!
Woody
I have ridden the rails several times in the past few years , taking my grandsons on trips to Sacremento , etc . It has given me a chance to talk to Amtrack personel , the major problem with passenger service , is that it returns very little revenue to the company . Freight has priority over passenger (as it is the money maker ) , thus delaying passenger service , therefore upsetting the passengers , thereby reducing passenger revenue even more , it is a catch 22 !
Simply my observations --- ,DLR
Simply my observations --- ,DLR
Studies seem to indicate that rail travel is competitive with air travel in times up to two hours. After that, air travel has the advantage. The two hour figure includes all check-in and waiting and boarding times. Time spent after the journey does not apply. It is a small window of opportunity, but this is where high speed rail can make in-roads to the air travel market.
Most of the studies and articles I've read seem to indicate that rail can take the lion's share of the Air / Rail market up to (and perhaps a little beyond) 3 hours (even not including a short check-in). Eurostar managed 60% of the London - Paris market even before the British high speed line was opened, giving a journey time of almost exactly 3 hours. The share is now more like 70%, and journey time is down to 2:15. Much longer services for Brits to go skiing in the French Alps are also now a regular part of the winter timetable, with journey times exceeding 7 hours. These can be fairly competitive because many of the resorts are not well linked to airports.
Paul
Paul, that's probably the difference between a study of impatient Americans, and more patient Brits...
Still 2 hours or 3 hours, all told just makes in -roads to air travel's market share, and once travelers realize they can use rail for their travel needs, it's a foot in the door!
Still 2 hours or 3 hours, all told just makes in -roads to air travel's market share, and once travelers realize they can use rail for their travel needs, it's a foot in the door!
I would be willing to accept much longer times to avoid the miserable terminal experience and tiny seats. Not that I despise airlines, I just hate being in them.
Trains have less fuss to get in and out and more comfortable seats. People will like that.
If the stations are made to be revenue generating centers like the stations in Japan, this could be wildly profitable. Trains rarely recover their costs from fares, and the economic benefits they generate in efficiency and economic development goes directly into the government's general fund without being marked as per the source, so trains get squeezed at budget times. They need a clear source of revenue that goes directly to the railroad.
Its like a farmer finding a golden egg lying on the floor every morning and complaining that the goose is too expensive to feed. Who would guess that the eggs would stop when the goose gets cooked?
Still, if he's talking about top speeds of 150mph, a coast to coast run would take close to 2 days, including all station stops and transfers. It's a big country; we need high speed trains, not medium speed.
Claude
Trains have less fuss to get in and out and more comfortable seats. People will like that.
If the stations are made to be revenue generating centers like the stations in Japan, this could be wildly profitable. Trains rarely recover their costs from fares, and the economic benefits they generate in efficiency and economic development goes directly into the government's general fund without being marked as per the source, so trains get squeezed at budget times. They need a clear source of revenue that goes directly to the railroad.
Its like a farmer finding a golden egg lying on the floor every morning and complaining that the goose is too expensive to feed. Who would guess that the eggs would stop when the goose gets cooked?
Still, if he's talking about top speeds of 150mph, a coast to coast run would take close to 2 days, including all station stops and transfers. It's a big country; we need high speed trains, not medium speed.
ClaudeDelta was dog waste on my flight to Europe. That's the last time I go on a gov't funded educational trip like that. 5K USD it cost me. Mind you, If I go again, it's not going to be Delta, and it's going to be a private trip.
Florida has HSR on the books for some time. It's the most convenient, most affordable, shovel ready plan that's out there yet. They've got the final plans under way(around late spring, early summer) and should be ready to get the first dash of funds which is going to be around mid summer.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/fe...lan-bring-high-speed-rail-tampa/c_2/#comments
Chairman Lee Chira said that construction could start within a year or so when/if they get the stimulus money. It's only a 2 Billion Dollar project(TAM-ORL), which leaves the leftover monies for phase II. They really need to connect the Florida Mainline with the Southeast Corridor(SEC anyone?)
Cheers!
Isaac
EDIT: One time, I read in a SP Times article at tampabay.com that some State and DOT officials had a little word to Sir Richard Branson(Virgin Company) to see if he had any interest in the venture here. It was going great until anti-Rail fmr. Gov. Jeb Bush used a propaganda campaign to derail the project. Hopefully Sir Richard Branson is still up for the service(I suppose that the operator would change from time to time, similar to the UK's)
Florida has HSR on the books for some time. It's the most convenient, most affordable, shovel ready plan that's out there yet. They've got the final plans under way(around late spring, early summer) and should be ready to get the first dash of funds which is going to be around mid summer.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/fe...lan-bring-high-speed-rail-tampa/c_2/#comments
Chairman Lee Chira said that construction could start within a year or so when/if they get the stimulus money. It's only a 2 Billion Dollar project(TAM-ORL), which leaves the leftover monies for phase II. They really need to connect the Florida Mainline with the Southeast Corridor(SEC anyone?)
Cheers!
Isaac
EDIT: One time, I read in a SP Times article at tampabay.com that some State and DOT officials had a little word to Sir Richard Branson(Virgin Company) to see if he had any interest in the venture here. It was going great until anti-Rail fmr. Gov. Jeb Bush used a propaganda campaign to derail the project. Hopefully Sir Richard Branson is still up for the service(I suppose that the operator would change from time to time, similar to the UK's)
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