Hard drives and Trainz performance - is faster better?

Paulsw2

Ambling on the slow line
I've got one more decision to make about my new PC - do I install Trainz on a standard 7200rpm HD or do I go for a 10000rpm one? It costs an extra £125, so is that worth it for the extra performance? Indeed, is there any extra performance?

Is two 7200rpm discs in RAID 0 array a lower priced compromise? Or not worth it?

The components I've already decided upon include:
CPU - Core i7 860 2.80GHz Processor overclocked to up to 3.6G
GPU - Radeon HD 5870 1024M
RAM - 8GB PC3-12800 DDR3 Memory
PSU - Thermaltake High Performance 750

So I'm anxious that the HD doesn't turn out to be the bottleneck in the system!

Paul
 
OHHHH Yes

It makes quite a difference, I have five hard drives in my machine, three of those are 10,000 WD Raptor/ velociraptor used for the main C drive and the other two for Trainz only. I remember when I first upgraded to them, I was using the then new 06 with one of Angela's high end maps that dragged really bad on the old 7'200, but boy did it fly fast without and stutter on the new Raptors.
So yes it makes a very big difference, well worth the extra money if your serious about your Trainzing. :wave:
 
Thanks. This leads to a question I imagine has been asked before: if you have two drives, should the operating system go on one and Trainz on the other or are they best off on the same disc? (though perhaps in different partitions?)

If on separate discs, which gets the high speed drive, the O/S or Trainz?

I know, questions, questions!:hehe:

Paul
 
I'd go for separate drives then if the o/s goes haywire (or drive) all is not lost. I partiton my drives then defragging isn't such a long winded process. If it makes such a difference I'd put trainz on the faster drive (anything to get the FPS up).
 
There is a utility in Windows called perfmon if you have a search through the forum you may come across the results that were obtained monitoring performance whilst Trainz was running. There were very few disk accesses whilst it was running. This was done some time ago.

I forget which version of trainz it was but essentially once Trainz has read the disk files in the hard disk performance shouldn't matter that much.

Having said that for some large layouts the initial read is a fair chunk of data. Also latency appears to be important.

James_Moody or Bloodnok wrote this 15 months ago in Trainzdev on hardware performance it maybe of interest:

"It's important when discussing this to make a distinction between what works best with "classic" trainz (e.g. 2004, 2006, the Trainz Classics series, etc, etc), and 2009. Experience with 2004 and 2006 is not necessarily valid in 2009, however, some of it will be.

My experience of 2004 and TC3 says RAM is key.

Trainz is memory hungry. The S&C (from TC3) will make trainz use over 1GB all by itself. Bigger route == more RAM. More detail == more RAM. This is unlikely to change for 2009.
Trainz is a 32 bit process, so can use up to 2GB on it's own. The important point here, is that this is in addition to anything the OS is using (e.g. for disk cache). With a 32 bit OS, you'll hit a limit at about 3GB - 3.5GB depending on hardware config. With a 64 bit OS, you can go further (but Trainz will still be limited to 2GB in it's own process).

After system memory, comes dedicated graphics card RAM. The speed of the GPU isn't so important (see later note) - more the amount of memory it comes with. (Oh, and don't, under any circumstances, share RAM. That is a quick way to appalling performance).

After RAM, disk performance is next. Putting a 10000RPM SATA Raptor (150GB version) in my home desktop made a huge difference to Trainz. (Interestingly, setting up two 7200RPM SATA disks in RAID0 didn't. It seems to me to be latency that is the primary issue, not the overall transfer speed - and RAID does very little to improve latency when used by a single program.)

As far as multiple cores goes - Trainz is multithreaded - but there is a lot that runs in the main thread that is not threaded, and can't be easily made threaded. Over time, more threads are added. TRS2004 had threads, but didn't do all that much in them. TRS2006 improved the threading significantly. As of TC3, Trainz will use a dual core processor fairly well, but you're unlikely to get much additional benefit from a quad core. If the choice is between a fast dual core processor, and a quad core which while faster overall has individually slower cores, I'd take the dual. 2009 may well have a bit of additional threading - but it's going to be an evolutionary step, not a revolutionary step. I'd still take the dual for 2009 as well.

It is true that 'classic' versions of Trainz don't benefit all that much from the fastest graphics cards - mid-range cards perform surprisingly well compared to the top of the line versions. This is mainly down to usage, and is expected to change for 2009 - at least when 2009 spec content is in use.

All other things being equal (and assuming enough system bandwidth to do this without hitting another problem...) if you double performance of the graphics card, and double the polycount of each object on display, it should come out at about the same framerate. i.e. if you had 10 x 50-poly houses before, you now have 10 x 100 poly houses, and with twice the graphics card grunt, you're running at the same framerate.

Extrapolate that out from version 1.0, and you can begin to see what maps "should" look like for high performance in current versions - i.e. very few objects, but each one highly detailed. But that's not what people do. They try to double the number of objects each time. And that's where Trainz doesn't scale. For example - in TC3 and earlier, making a housing estate by placing the same low poly house 50 times in surveyor will be far slower than cloning that house 50 times in 3DSMax and exporting the resultant estate as one object to place in surveyor. The reason for this, is that trainz gives the placed objects to the graphics card one at a time. And if the creator used one texture for the roof, another for the walls, and a third for the windows and doors, Trainz will give each of these pieces to the card separately too. Thus the one 2500 poly housing estate (which is given to the graphics card in only a small number of calls) will render a lot faster than 50 identical 50 poly houses (which will be at least 50 separate calls).

In 2009, for most assets, many instances of the same asset will be drawn with one call. So your 50 identical 50 poly houses should now render a LOT faster than they did before - essentially the same speed as the one 2500 poly housing estate, in fact. Combine this over all the assets you place, (and each segment of a spline, too - those will also be stitched...) and this will make a lot more use of the faster graphics cards. And the biggest speedup can be expected on the higher end hardware, as that's where there is the most to gain.

Now, before everyone jumps up and down saying this is wonderful - there are two caveats here. Firstly, some things can't be done this way. Anything with animation won't get done this way. Neither will things that are alphablended (though alphamasked things are fine). So all them trees on the DLS won't work with it - creators will need to make them alphamasked rather than alphablended for this to work. Secondly, 50 slightly different houses in the estate won't work, as they are different. This technique will only benefit you when you re-use the same asset over and over. Of course, you'll want some variation - but maybe 15-20 each of 3 different types is an acceptable compromise. That's up to layout creators to decide"

Cheerio John
 
Very interesting John, many thanks for this. So, sounds like 10,000rpm drive could be a sound investment. Interesting points too about RAM. Have I read somewhere that TS09/10 might be able to use more than 2GB of RAM?

Looking at what James says about processors, I get the feeling he might not be too excited about [quad] Core i7 though! However, I still want one - I'm hoping it might offer a bit of 'future proofing'.

Paul
 
Good luck getting a 5870, it is on my shopping list too but just about everywhere I look is only taking pre-orders with a minimum of a month's wait.

Mike.
 
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Very interesting John, many thanks for this. So, sounds like 10,000rpm drive could be a sound investment. Interesting points too about RAM. Have I read somewhere that TS09/10 might be able to use more than 2GB of RAM?

Looking at what James says about processors, I get the feeling he might not be too excited about [quad] Core i7 though! However, I still want one - I'm hoping it might offer a bit of 'future proofing'.

Paul

Seen this one?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822145296

there are some others available as well at 15,000 rpm but the Hitachi is reputed to be the best this week.

Cheerio John
 
Be careful with a RAID0. This configuration is very fast, but they are extremely unsafe data wise because the data is spread across two drives without any error checking. If one drive fails, everything is lost. You are better off having individual drives with the OS and programs on one, and backup data on another.

There are alternative RAID levels if you are interested, but then there are speed issues because of the redundancy. This is because one of the drives is then used for parity for fail-safe operation. When the data is written to the drives, a special extra drive has a slice of information on it that represents part of the data on the other drives. Should one of the other drives fail, the parity drive can fill in the blanks, and the RAID can be rebuilt with a new replacement drive. In this scenario, the data is not lost and the system will continue to function. This is a RAID1 configuration. There are others that include mirroring plus parity, etc., but the concept is still the same.

John

John
 
Fair enough John, but what is the failure rate for hdd's, if you are handling important data then do not use Raid0 for that data, use a third drive, but with hdd's being so cheap now raid10 (or 01) is viable :D

Raid10 is both mirrored then striped (or striped then mirrored with 01) giving both speed and security :D but takes four hdd's.

If Linux and Winblows didn't handle raid differently I would use raid0 all the time.

Cheers David
 
After RAM, disk performance is next. Putting a 10000RPM SATA Raptor (150GB version) in my home desktop made a huge difference to Trainz. (Interestingly, setting up two 7200RPM SATA disks in RAID0 didn't. It seems to me to be latency that is the primary issue, not the overall transfer speed - and RAID does very little to improve latency when used by a single program.)
Cheerio John
The above is from 1 of John Whelan's posts.
Just a few questions from a computer illiterate. if you have a 7200rpm sata + a 10000rpm sata what raid array do you have them. The 10000 is for trainz only, 7200 has other programs, a small EIDE drive has my o/s (xp 32 bit) on ( I have a spare loaded and ready just in case).
I have my RAM in dual channel mode 3g a channel. Until I upgrade to Win7 is there any benefit from this or am I better off leaving 4g in single channel mode.
CPU is a E8500 3.16 core duo. I have just bought the 10000rpm after following this thread
cheers fran
 
You don't as the 10,000rpm drive would be waiting for the slower drive all the time, effectively making it no faster than the 7,500.

When using raid you should only use drives of the same size and speed, you can use odd drives but the raid array will only be as big as the smallest, and as fast as the slowest.

eg: a 250gig and a 350gig will only give you 500gig in raid0, wasting 100gig.

Cheers David

Edit, get your o/s off that slow ide drive and onto one of the sata drives :D
 
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You don't as the 10,000rpm drive would be waiting for the slower drive all the time, effectively making it no faster than the 7,500.

When using raid you should only use drives of the same size and speed, you can use odd drives but the raid array will only be as big as the smallest, and as fast as the slowest.

eg: a 250gig and a 350gig will only give you 500gig in raid0, wasting 100gig.

Cheers David

Edit, get your o/s off that slow ide drive and onto one of the sata drives :D
That was quick . How do I not use raid. I've seen the sata sockets (4 pairs) and have my 1 sata drive in 1 of the first pair. I knew i'd draw a comment with the ide drive so I'll move it to a partition on the 7200 sata. :'( I'll keep it for posterity.
cheers once again. fran.
 
Sata is the method of getting data to and from the drives, raid is how it is stored on the drives :D
The Sata sockets have nothing to do with Raid, you can plug in up to eight drives on your system and the o/s will see up to eight individual drives, unless you set up Raid, it is not automatic :)

Cheers David
 
Thank you, so therefore just plug the drive in any sata socket no raid selected and the 10000rpm drive will not be slowed down by the 7200rpm.
The only thing i knew about raid before was robbing firewood off someones bonfire.:hehe: :hehe:
fran.
150gig velociraptor 10000rpm £113 from amazon.
 
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RAID0 on fast HHDs

I use two Velociraptors in RAID0, I can feel the difference definitely on my TRS06, I don't consider RAID0 much more dangerous than single drive concerning any fails, I was experiencing fail of single drive as well as one of RAID0 couple and there was no difference in attempts to save data and also in results.
 
i have 2 hard drives

1st-150 velicoraptor (used for o/s and games)
2nd- 600 gig wd caviar 7200 rpm (used for storage)
 
Fair enough John, but what is the failure rate for hdd's, if you are handling important data then do not use Raid0 for that data, use a third drive, but with hdd's being so cheap now raid10 (or 01) is viable :D

Raid10 is both mirrored then striped (or striped then mirrored with 01) giving both speed and security :D but takes four hdd's.

If Linux and Winblows didn't handle raid differently I would use raid0 all the time.

Cheers David

Hi David,

The failure rate is much better than it was for hard drives, but the really cheap SATA drives still have a higher failure rate than the older SCSI drives. I don't know why other than cheaper manufacturing processes. All in all I still wouldn't use a RAID0 even for my personal data since there's still the risk of sending it all to bit heaven.

The fact that the other RAID configurations require more hardware, also makes me shy away from them for personal systems. Why waste the extra power, and hard drives for a RAID, particularly when there's a drop in performance with the mirroring operation and parity checking.

If this was a corporate datacenter, with plenty of money and plenty of backup capabilities, sure I would consider RAIDs. They have the money to replace drives when they fail, and the backup capabilities to handle the large arrays they can become.

John
 
I didn't see any Solid State Drives (SSD) mentioned in this string. If it a fast drive you want, why not? 64G for about $270. I expect that is plenty for Win7 and TS2010.
 
I didn't see any Solid State Drives (SSD) mentioned in this string. If it a fast drive you want, why not? 64G for about $270. I expect that is plenty for Win7 and TS2010.

I wasn't sure how much TS2010 uses. Updating its database for example does it double in size? My TS2009 folder is well in excess of 30 gigs so a 64 gig drive may not cut it, especially when you format first, then keep the content down below 80% to avoid perform degradation.

Cheerio John
 
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