(happily) running TS2010; what happens if I install TS12 ?

CurlSnout

New member
Here's one from an obvious novice with Trainz: I'm running TS2010 (patched to build 49933). Thinking to pledge toward the TS2 Kickstarter at a level that will allow the 'Get-Trainz-Now' option. If I do that and elect to download/install TS12, will TS12 be a stand-alone application? In other words, will I then have two separate/different versions of Trainz (TS2010 and TS12) running independently on the same computer?

If the answer to the above = 'Yes', then will there be two separate/different Content Managers operating side-by-side?

If that answer to the above = 'Yes', and I go into the DLS and choose to download new content, which Content Manager is in control and how do I determine/control which version of Trainz receives the new content?

I'm running multiple, independent versions of Open Rails, but I recently installed my 'old'/original retail version of RailWorks and the Steam system automatically updated it to the most current version of Train Simulator (Train Simulator 2014) - whether I wanted it to or not. So things work differently for different train/railroad simulation programs. Can someone please explain how it works with Trainz?

Thank you, and good morning,

cs
 
will TS12 be a stand-alone application? In other words, will I then have two separate/different versions of Trainz (TS2010 and TS12) running independently on the same computer?
Yes

If the answer to the above = 'Yes', then will there be two separate/different Content Managers operating side-by-side?
Yes

If that answer to the above = 'Yes', and I go into the DLS and choose to download new content, which Content Manager is in control and how do I determine/control which version of Trainz receives the new content?
It will be the same account. You manually download the stuff.
I would personally not go to the website but always use Content Manager.

I'm running multiple, independent versions of Open Rails, but I recently installed my 'old'/original retail version of RailWorks and the Steam system automatically updated it to the most current version of Train Simulator (Train Simulator 2014) - whether I wanted it to or not. So things work differently for different train/railroad simulation programs. Can someone please explain how it works with Trainz?
You will get notified about an available patch some time after it became available and was announced on this forum. It is up to you if you patch and how you do that.
 
You will get notified about an available patch some time after it became available and was announced on this forum. It is up to you if you patch and how you do that.

Thanks for explaining. I suppose my last point was ambiguous or unclear - I was using Open Rails as an example of independent versions of the same application running side by side on the same machine, and Railworks as an example of an application where installing the new version 'upgraded' the previous version.

I think I understand the patching process fairly well (I spent ALOT of time installing/un-installing/re-installing TS2010 and trying to get it patched back up to build 49933).

It may be that I'm not using Content Manager properly or to its full potential. I always start at the DLS site to search and see what's available; when I find something of interest (or need, if I'm missing a dependancy) I use the 'Download Helper' to pull it into Content Manager, highlight it, and hit the 'Start' button.
 
Trainz installations run side-by-side no problem and existing installations can be moved around freely. I have 3 TS12 installations and 2 TS2010 all on the same machine, most which came from old machines. The only caveat is that, if you double-click a CDP/CDP2/CDPA file to add content, your machine will automatically open the CMP for the last version of Trainz installed. Even that can be changed with Shane Turner's Trainz Protocol Changer:

http://trainz.shaneturner.co.uk/tutorials/index.php/trainz-protocol-changer
 
Easy way round the double click to open, just drag and drop the cdp in the main window and it installs, saves messing with which CM is currently the default one.
 
A note regarding the drag and drop method. If you are using Windows Vista or later and you are also running Trainz as administrator, you may find that dragging and dropping does not work for you.

Shane
 
A note regarding the drag and drop method. If you are using Windows Vista or later and you are also running Trainz as administrator, you may find that dragging and dropping does not work for you.

Shane

This makes no sense Shane, please elaborate on when you've seen this... the exact opposite of what would be expected. Dropping any dragged item removes all ambiguity and there is no reason for the Windows Software to try and access the MUIcache or RUNmui record to open the proper application. Especially when the application is already open! The only possible meaning I can give to your text is that the user hasn't registered himself as an administrator with full privileges and so is only running Trainz as an Administrator with the individual settings. THAT mode is particularly foolish on a PERSONAL COMPUTER... as it's a feature of a shared resource computer in a business. You avoid a lot of problems making sure your log-in identity is an Administrator in Windows.

To the OP, on starting a download from the DLS -- this seems to work fine AFTER downloading something into an already open CM. Just look for something obsolete or outdated and do a quick download to prime the internet connection. In other words, it's Safest to launch CM, download, then quit back to Windows desktop. This updates the Windows registry. Then relaunch CM or let the Browser launch CM for you. Then return to the webpage and launch there if you wish, cutting and pasting all those goodies is such a pain. This is my preferred method of searching... I like to see the pics and descriptions or don't usually grab an item (excepting by user or variant batches).

To the OP, the one thing I would suggest avoiding is running two Versions of Trainz at the same time because of TADdaemon; I do not have any sure negative experiences with this, but do think I may have launched once or twice and using the launcher, ended up using the database in the other Trainz version. This is nervous making, and such 'incidents' were relatively minor events, or I'd have a firmer memory of them... Having said that, I have however found myself doing so by accident and count myself lucky I didn't crash something. In sum, You want to avoid anything which might mix data bases.

THIS IS IN STARK contrast with running two CM's and/or Trainz runtime GUI's (i.e. Two CM's of the same version) which according to Jamesmoody is one reason they installed TADdaemon. Since this is designed in, it's safe meaning we can all set up looks at several different filters and even download while building a layout. This is because the Internet pipe is all handled through the local TADdaemon -- which is why things sometimes get slow--a likely unintended consequence. This change was primarily for multiplayer operation, but it does allow for other options. (I've had two CM's open at once, but haven't explored this voluntarily since I read the answer telling me this was a deliberate feature. I'd complained it was possible with just an careless double-click to launch, being a paranoid programmer type myself.) I've also clearly had Two CM's and two TADdaemon's active at once TS2009-SP4 and TS2010-SP2 which are version (3.3 and 3.2 respectively).

You can ensure which CM and database you are using by launching CM directly in the \bin subfolder or by setting up a shortcut to begin in that same folder which launches CM for you. I have a versions of Trainz (by individual Service Pack plateaus) from Trainz 2004-SP4 through TS12-SP1+hf3; actually more, as I keep a 'virgin' or 'clean' copy of major changes. If the upgrade took more than half an hour, you can bet I keep a virgin copy before importing data, and after. I manage which is which by keeping the launcher and CM shortcuts named clearly in a separate Trainz folder in my Start Menu. (Note taking content backwards to older Trainz versions is problematic.)

Further, if you download cdp's to a particular folder, perhaps because a third party site bundled them into a zip... or you got them from a friend or what ever, when you are running a CM for a particular build, it is in control, not the registry cpd file handler on record (You can see and change which Trainz has that by running Regedit, then use FIND to see '.cdp' and '.cdpa'.) so there is no ambiguity therein either, just import using the ALT-F dropdown menu again.

To the OP, TO address a point I didn't see covered... you can just import your already downloaded (or locally built and added content) from TS2010 to TS12 simply by importing the content using the [Alt]-[F] dropdown menu. // Frank
 
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Certainly Frank. Not sure if you are aware, but by default on most consumer (home) editions of Windows Vista or later, the Administrator account, unless you are using the one in Safe Mode, is not a true administrator account and still requires elevation for certain operations, including most registry access and file writing in protected Windows folders.

Regarding the drag-drop feature, this is an issue I have encountered and confirmed as related to the elevated privilege requirements, and it seems that Windows will not allow drag and drop between non-privileged and privileged processes in some cases.

The usual effect is that it simply will not finish the operation and will usually give the mouse cursor icon as if you have dragged onto something that cannot be dropped onto.

Shane
 
Certainly Frank. Not sure if you are aware, but by default on most consumer (home) editions of Windows Vista or later, the Administrator account, unless you are using the one in Safe Mode, is not a true administrator account and still requires elevation for certain operations, including most registry access and file writing in protected Windows folders.

Regarding the drag-drop feature, this is an issue I have encountered and confirmed as related to the elevated privilege requirements, and it seems that Windows will not allow drag and drop between non-privileged and privileged processes in some cases.

The usual effect is that it simply will not finish the operation and will usually give the mouse cursor icon as if you have dragged onto something that cannot be dropped onto.

Shane

Frank,

I can confirm this is the case. The operating system has locked down a lot of 'features' due to security reasons. As I've said before, and as Shane says here, the Administrator account today in Windows is more like a Super User account in Unix/Linux. There are many levels of protection in place that require special file access which are now only available as Safe Mode administrator which is the equivalent of root-level access in Unix/Linux.

This came about during the development and release of Vista. Prior to that time, all users had full administrator access to the operating system and file system. this caused major security issues because malware also had full access to the operating system. With Vista and above, these rights were removed and the operating system its self was put behind another layer of protection. This is called rings and very few programs have access to ring 0 in Windows today outside of device drivers and the operating-system its self, and drivers have access through HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) which acts as a go between. All applications go through AAL or Application Abstraction Layer which then has only specific rights to specific areas in Windows.

Older applications do not take this into account and can have problems running, however, many can be made to operate fairly well by using software shims such as those found in compatibility mode.

Typing this from the hotel in snowy and icy Hancock, MA

John
 
Certainly Frank. Not sure if you are aware, but by default on most consumer (home) editions of Windows Vista or later, the Administrator account, unless you are using the one in Safe Mode, is not a true administrator account and still requires elevation for certain operations, including most registry access and file writing in protected Windows folders.

Regarding the drag-drop feature, this is an issue I have encountered and confirmed as related to the elevated privilege requirements, and it seems that Windows will not allow drag and drop between non-privileged and privileged processes in some cases.

The usual effect is that it simply will not finish the operation and will usually give the mouse cursor icon as if you have dragged onto something that cannot be dropped onto.

Shane
Right you are, perhaps I should have been clearer in writing this:
The only possible meaning I can give to your text is that the user hasn't registered himself as an administrator with full privileges and so is only running Trainz as an Administrator with the individual settings. THAT mode is particularly foolish on a PERSONAL COMPUTER... as it's a feature of a shared resource computer in a business. You avoid a lot of problems making sure your log-in identity is an Administrator in Windows. SNIP, SNIP // Frank
which had in mind precisely the case @Shane: "... it seems that Windows will not allow drag and drop between non-privileged and privileged processes in some cases."

Which I had foolishly thought I'd covered with "full privileges" and "particularly foolish on a PERSONAL COMPUTER" and "making sure your log-in identity is an Administrator in Windows". Apologies, I'd forgotten that as a superuser I'd pretty much configured my newly installed Windoze from the outset to ensure I was logging in as the Administrator. Also had immediately configured file properties and folder behaviors and such to my normal practices... And that having taken those actions, as John observed when sometimes sharing the keyboard, the privileges were automatically elevated for the Trainz EXEs. As he also knows, I don't let Windows push me around much.


  • Further, you might also be more targeted than I with your: "most consumer (home) editions"... which distinction I I hadn't considered at all. Don't buy the OS on the cheap anymore. Last Home versions we bought were back around y2k and Windows ME machines for the kids!
  • Maybe I should make a football cheer: "Go PRO or stay home! or how about a rah-rah chant: "Go Pro, ...Go Pro, ...Go Pro!" <lol>


@John -- that's the best explanation you've given me yet about why those 'default windows' folders won't allow me to customize them the way I want, but I'm figuring there is a work around I'll find someday. Maybe with Bill, Jan, and Will's help?

I do however wonder at whether that spot of bother I had last month running some of those TS10-SPx 'tech plateau' runtime GUI's is directly related to this permissions issue... which I've been viewing from inside the registry in hkeys I know about... but there is a lot of new evident abstraction in the registry... which I'd also seen in passing--this ring & isolation attempt you describe is likely that increased use of CSIDs I'm seeing therein. There are a couple of those TS10 plateau's that still that won't let me load the software into the main menu and operate the run time GUI's -- but do let me port and evolve installed content, fix warns and errors and such work and so seem to work perfectly fine in CM... since I've neither resumed building a route yet nor drive much (outside my own sessions testing), I've delayed chasing down why that happened. The question got lost further when we moved my computers downstairs in mid-November preparatory for Thanksgiving company. (I'm IN TRAINZ rather less as a result of the differential geography--TS12 would kill this laptop, and both the tower computer's in their temporary new pre-man-cave site in the basement are rather chilly to run at this time of year. My inclination to run Trainz is way down, as is Skype conferencing about same.)

@John, thanks for the weather out west. We had our share this end of the state. When you get home, want to help frame some of the basement? Unlike Kenny, I'll let you use a hammer! // Frank
 
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