Driving a Subway Train Is Very Difficult

[cascaderailroad]

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2017/02/21/septa-accident-upper-darby/
http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/20...njured-in-septa-train-crash/?e=sOvW0tewWwGQKg
http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/20...es-over-past-several-months/?e=oeDIiaKUKAG5dQ
18 cars involved, 3 train collision, 4 injured, 1 critical condition

Why one train backed out of the closed loop, collided with a waiting second train on the closed loop, and shoved into a third train passing on the loop, that was not to have passengers around the loop

Why trains should have a simple to use gas pedal, and brake pedal, instead of a complex, confusing dashboard throttle/brake control handle

 

[Saieditor]

Well, we have learned from investigations into things like this - that not one thing goes wrong, but often three or four things have gone wrong and led to consequences like this.

It is interesting to learn that NTSB arrived and said, "Don't move anything".

 

[JCitron]

Well, we have learned from investigations into things like this - that not one thing goes wrong, but often three or four things have gone wrong and led to consequences like this.

It is interesting to learn that NTSB arrived and said, "Don't move anything".

The NTSB will do that until the accident site is cleared because they need to determine if this was strictly human or if there was a mechanical issue as well, or both.

Last year there was a rather interesting incident on our (Boston) Red Line subway that was determined to be 100% human error. Luckily no one was killed in the incident, however, the veteran driver was fired. The train took off unmanned and the power needed to be cut in order to stop the train, which caused all kinds of delays on the Red Line.

When the trains exit Braintree yard, they need to use the override for the ATS system. This requires the driver to exit the train, turn a knob to raise up the stopper, drive past the switch, then reengage the ATS again. Mr. Brilliant got tired of climbing in and out of the cab, and stopping and starting the train so he devised a contraption of sorts.

He'd set the train brake, tie off the throttle in gear via the phone cord, jump out flip the lever, release the brake, and roll along then jump back in while the train was in motion.

In this incident, however, he neglected to set his brakes so the train now took off on its own because the throttle was pulled into the forward and power position, and the ATS was disabled. While leaving the yard, he was knocked to the ground and it was reported he went chasing after his train as it raced down the tracks! Five stops later, the train was stopped. The few passengers on this early morning train got an express ride to JFK station. The "T" had to wait until the line ahead was clear enough to stop the trains because there could have been a collision.

The driver tried to excuse his way out of his stupidity and attempted an appeal of the dismissal which of course was not accepted. In the process of shear laziness, he through away a 25 year career and a good pension.

 

[cascaderailroad]

Well fares should go up as this surely cost a billion dollars to repair/scrap 18 subway cars

I think the operators cab controls are a bit confusing, as I crash trainz in cab control

How often does a bus crash ... it has pedals like in a car

A rookie can easily crash a train because of the confusing controls

 

[nicky9499]

If you think subway train - or any train, for that matter - controls are confusing then you've obviously never been in the cockpit of an airliner. Stick with the tonka truck, cascade.

 

[Vern]

Train controls have evolved from the original systems used on steam locos to what we have now. Many modern traction units, including subway and transit type cars, now have a power/brake controller which puts all the function on one handle or lever. Although I've never driven a real train (unless you count on a 7.25" miniature railway) the physics and techniques required are quite different from those required to put a road vehicle in motion and stop it, as is the inertia. A train type throttle and brake allows for a steady graduated application of power or retardation, rather than just stamping your foot on a pedal. In the case of subway/underground trains I believe each notch of power may have a determined top speed which was a useful aid back in the day with EMU's that weren't fitted with speedos (in the case of the UK, as recently as the 4SUB's on the Southern Region believe it or not).

 

[charlie3577]

Practically all subways in the world are automatitzed, the driver only opens, close doors and start a mechanism to be automatically driven to next station. Many people don't know that, you can prove that is true just by realising always the brake point is the same. I have been on multiple subways cabs.

 

[cascaderailroad]

Not on this line ... Driver operating error is ever present

Having positive train control warns the driver of an impending crash, and is supposed to shut down the power if the operator does not respond, but sometimes PTC does not work, and the driver has full control to speed through red signals and to crash into trains, and if enough overspeed and inertia is applied by the driver, trains will collide. It would be safe to say the PTC does not stop a driver from speeding and he can run multiple red signals, with negligence

It would be nice if the world operated on AI, but it doesn't !

 

[ministerfarrigut]

Even driving diesel locomotives is hard. I saw a video where 2 trains were on the same track going at high speeds towards each other. Driver of on engine applied the brakes but the heavy thing didn't stop. They ended up colliding with each other. Sad stuff.

 

[JCitron]

Not on this line ... Driver operating error is ever present

Having positive train control warns the driver of an impending crash, and is supposed to shut down the power if the operator does not respond, but sometimes PTC does not work, and the driver has full control to speed through red signals and to crash into trains, and if enough overspeed and inertia is applied by the driver, trains will collide. It would be safe to say the PTC does not stop a driver from speeding and he can run multiple red signals, with negligence

It would be nice if the world operated on AI, but it doesn't !

If this is true, then the NTA and NTSB should investigate the way they did the Washington Metro which ended up under FRA oversight due to the major problems they had.

 

[cyberdongreen]

Not on this line ... Driver operating error is ever present

Having positive train control warns the driver of an impending crash, and is supposed to shut down the power if the operator does not respond, but sometimes PTC does not work, and the driver has full control to speed through red signals and to crash into trains, and if enough overspeed and inertia is applied by the driver, trains will collide. It would be safe to say the PTC does not stop a driver from speeding and he can run multiple red signals, with negligence

It would be nice if the world operated on AI, but it doesn't !

As a former Train Driver (Engineer) of 30 years plus experience, I have to say, "Be careful what you wish for."

As anyone who uses a computer can tell you, AI is far from intelligent. It has to be programmed to carry out EVERY single action that a human would think of in a split second and that is a far more tedious process than most of us could imagine. Furthermore, you could almost teach a monkey to drive modern day trains. Most of the hard work is done for the driver and safety systems abound (if they don't in your neck of the woods then somebody's balls ought to be on the chopping board. The technology is there and has been for years.) Having said that, train drivers are not homicidal/suicidal maniacs who need to be restrained at every opportunity.

Believe me, one of the most frightening things to experience at the front of a train is to come round a corner at 70, 80, 90 mph and have a red signal staring staring straight at you. The shock itself is like a punch in the face. Stopping your bowels from emptying is as tough as stopping your train!

Even though most drivers will experience this horror more than once in their career it is rarely their fault. More often than not it is down to a sudden mains power failure (and back up generators don't always kick in when they should.) Nonetheless, it is no less frightening and it sticks with you for life.

Nowadays, thyristors control power levels when opening and closing the throttle on electric trains so it is a simple "click, click, click" through the notches and you can moderate your speed easily according to what notch suits best. On these electric trains, power settings were set manually by the driver (engineer) as part of train control up until the mid to late 1990's requiring much better route knowledge (gradients etc) and levels of concentration. It took time to put power on and get it up to the level you wanted, especially when there were bad rail conditions. By the same token, it took time to run the power off so you had to be much more aware of where you were at every moment. Yes, you could shut off power instantly but that usually resulted in a rather loud bang and a heavy jolt felt throughout your train. It was an "emergency only" procedure. Diesel-electric locos still have that encumbrance to this day.

Also in days gone by, brakes were applied from the front cab and took time to react at the rear, more so with vacuum brakes (hence the use of "exhauster speed up" buttons on vacuum braked locos.) Nowadays it's all electo-pneumatic (EP) braking. The brakes are applied instantaneously on each vehicle. Three and four step braking is almost universal. However, (in Europe at least) even though aeroplane style black boxes abound to monitor every move in the cab all this automation doesn't make life perfect.

The main problem on modern railways is that drivers have nothing to do for most of their day. The train does it all for them. They are bored out of their skulls most of the time and end up looking at the passing scenery as much as the travelling public do. That's where the problems start to arise because they are often not "switched on" at decisive moments and accidents happen. In France, on the TGV, they have "invented" things for their drivers to do so that they follow a sequence at all times - hopefully keeping their attention on their job. It seems to work.

All in all though, AI? Not for me thanks.

Dave

 

[nicky9499]

Metros are basically cut-down versions of "full size" trains and with the advent of electronics most if not all aspects have been super-simplified and dumbed down. There is an automated underground metro line where I live and sometimes drivers take over manually to keep themselves familiarized. For example, I spoke to one (the control stand is not isolated) and apparently there's very little skill involved in docking at a station; you simply enter at a certain speed, put it into the 2nd brake notch, turn your head to the side and once you hit the marker near the end apply another notch of brake which brings you to a neat stop with doors aligned.