CSX in Michigan: Good Bye?

[chrisracer8903]

Well as we all know the economy with the "Big 3" has impacted us greatly up here in Detroit. All the CP, CN, NS, and CSX lines have been greatly effected. CSX lately on the real Saginaw Sub (Not my Trainz Version) has been in trouble. In the last month alone, over 12 both schedueled and extra board trains have been cut due to the manufacturing industries going "South" and the auto production going to a hault means to productions at US Steel down in Ecorse (South side of the city) have been shutting down many of their coke ovens. Strong speculations from CSX management last year has been showing the CSX plans to sell the Saginaw Sub from Plymouth to Flint as an expansion to the Lake State Railway Company that currently owns CSX trackage they took over in 2005 from Flint to Bay City. If that doesn't get any different than that, west of Plymouth to Grand Rapids might be bought over by shortline that has been around for 3 years called Marquette Rail that took over the CSX Ludington and Baldwin Subs on the west side of the state. IF these sales go through, they will also cut more CSX trains that currently run on these lines and includes the the daily CP train that if removed will completely be-rid of the SOO traffic that ran through here from 1985-1994 (Then CP bought, then moved onto NS, but kept one CP train on CSX that was the first SOO train). Honestly, this has been coming ever since the recession happend, Q326 and Q327 (Daily Detroit-Grand Rapids-Chicago Trains) have been between 20 to 0 cars and back during the time the SOO's haulage through here was bought by CP, these trains were well over 100 cars long. The Saginaw Sub doesn't even see daily trains between Toledo and Detroit, now it's just whenever needed, so some days CSX during daylight may not run any trains for a day or two. Hopefully these shortlines if they do take over will bring back more business and more trains into the area. Lake State would bumped-up to a Regional Railroad than a Shortline if the sale goes through. CSX would still run from Toledo to Detroit, and Plymouth will be just be an interchanging point between the 3 railroads. Again, this isn't official, but it's sad to see this being considered.

 

[trainzbroken]

Well as we all know the economy with the "Big 3" has impacted us greatly up here in Detroit. All the CP, CN, NS, and CSX lines have been greatly effected. CSX lately on the real Saginaw Sub (Not my Trainz Version) has been in trouble. In the last month alone, over 12 both schedueled and extra board trains have been cut due to the manufacturing industries going "South" and the auto production going to a hault means to productions at US Steel down in Ecorse (South side of the city) have been shutting down many of their coke ovens. Strong speculations from CSX management last year has been showing the CSX plans to sell the Saginaw Sub from Plymouth to Flint as an expansion to the Lake State Railway Company that currently owns CSX trackage they took over in 2005 from Flint to Bay City. If that doesn't get any different than that, west of Plymouth to Grand Rapids might be bought over by shortline that has been around for 3 years called Marquette Rail that took over the CSX Ludington and Baldwin Subs on the west side of the state. IF these sales go through, they will also cut more CSX trains that currently run on these lines and includes the the daily CP train that if removed will completely be-rid of the SOO traffic that ran through here from 1985-1994 (Then CP bought, then moved onto NS, but kept one CP train on CSX that was the first SOO train). Honestly, this has been coming ever since the recession happend, Q326 and Q327 (Daily Detroit-Grand Rapids-Chicago Trains) have been between 20 to 0 cars and back during the time the SOO's haulage through here was bought by CP, these trains were well over 100 cars long. The Saginaw Sub doesn't even see daily trains between Toledo and Detroit, now it's just whenever needed, so some days CSX during daylight may not run any trains for a day or two. Hopefully these shortlines if they do take over will bring back more business and more trains into the area. Lake State would bumped-up to a Regional Railroad than a Shortline if the sale goes through. CSX would still run from Toledo to Detroit, and Plymouth will be just be an interchanging point between the 3 railroads. Again, this isn't official, but it's sad to see this being considered.

well it means amtrak will run more ontime now with no trains to compeat with.

 

[chrisracer8903]

Amtrak does not run on this line, but it does cross Amtrak in Wayne where NS dispatchers always stop CSX to let Amtrak pass.

 

[brickbuilder711]

These are very unfortunate news. The auto yard in Miami on the FEC has been pretty vacant lately, probably with the shape of the economy. CSX shouldn't sell the line until business completely diminishes and they really do not need the sub. We'll wait and see how the latest grant holds up, because I would give some time until mid 2009 and there is a possibility that business could come back to normal, with an expected profit from the big 3. If otherwise, hopefully the LSRC can attract some business.

 

[chrisracer8903]

Well as far as traffic through here, the grain and coal traffic has been steady, but as far as manifest traffic, North of Plymouth to Flint where the LSRC is planned to take over only sees 2 scheduled manifests daily ( Q321 and Q322 ) and two nights ago Q321 had NO CARS, just light engines down to Toledo that is needed for next day's Q508 to Chicago. Then you have the local to Wixom that only runs whenever needed and hasn't ran in 4 days. This line has been in trouble ever since Buick City in Flint and the Wixom Plant closed in 1999 therefore wiping-out 10 trains on the line. Majority of all the passing sidings on the real Saginaw Sub have been storing cars and also on the Plymouth Sub where Marquette Rail may buy. Right now there is 60 empty autoracks on the yard lead into the yard here in Plymouth so nothing is even using the yard. South of Plymouth is another story, CSX be-rid of all their locals out of Ford in Wayne and stopped operation to this large suburban town and gave all of it to it's next door neighbor NS ( Former Conrail). Now there is only 2 locals out of town here insted of the 5 there originally was. There is no longer any steel trains such as Q304 or Q305, and now Q216 no longer runs (Daylight train from Detroit to Toledo) and it's cars are now on the night train aka Q399, and Q272 only runs as needed, if not, puts the cars onto Q392 later that night. Q334 and Q335 are the only monster trains on the system here (Maybe cut if Marquette Buys), and CP/ SOO X500 can be, too, but it's not Detroit traffic, it's all St. Paul, MN-Montreal, Canada traffic. Also, GM is closing it's doors late 2009 to GM Fisher Body in Grand Rapids which SOO/ CP X500 picks-up loaded cars and takes them to Detroit on a locked contract (That's why SOO still runs a train on here), when GM closes, there's no reason to run it anymore! In addition to that, the cars at that GM plant come from NS and NS in result plans in 60 days to sell their trackage from Grand Rapids, MI to Elkhart, IN to a new shortline from WATCO corp. called the Grand Elk Railroad.

As you can see here, living and railfanning here in Michigan is such a stressful situation and I am and yet not looking forward to 2009 here due to the changes coming. Even Conrail Shared Assets in Detroit has been cutting traffic (Yes, in Detroit we have Conrail, that still owns track, trains, crews, and maintainer trucks) and I don't want to get started with that!

 

[traincrazy0918]

Thats so sad, To see lines just change ownership,andsomtime lose all or most of their traffic. Up here in Canada a line is very vacant,and ive been told the only train runs at midnight. Other than that, all you see is a couple hopper cars sitting on the siding near the station that is now a museum,which closed down too.

Hope this does not happen to your line, and hope CSX and the auto industry and econemy make a comeback.

 

[brickbuilder711]

They will come back. Even if it takes some time. Maybe GM will either delay or cancel it's closure if business revives...

 

[illinoiscentral]

I really wish I could say what I feel, but CoC prevents the talk of P*****CS!

 

[Isaacg]

I say abolish the big three... I never liked em in the first place. They took the railway passengers away. Its a bit of a Bulgy story when it comes to this. Anyone who likes CSX has completely lost it. Unless CSX operates differently up north, theyve really got something going for them down here in Florida. I knew CSX in some areas would go bust. It doesn't surprise me. It serves them right for not maintaining their crossings and having friendly service when people call. They don't realise how horrible they are until they've lost service. I could care less about Ford, Chrysler, and GM, I never fancied their cars in the first place. If the auto industry and airline industry makes a comeback its doom for the railways. It seems a very extreme attitude, but I can't stand the dwelling on cars and airlines. Its really annoying. This is an opportunity for Amtrak to start service here. Just because the good God of freight lines, CSX is gone, it doesn't mean we can appeal to the greater common sense and purpose of railways.... right? If not freight, there are always passengers. If these freight lines would work passenger runs too, they'll realise they are just as important. The more we dwell on cars, airlines, the preservation of the sanctity of the Good Ford father, the more we'll end up looking sillier and sillier. Haha, I was able to say that witout putting one swear word in there. I wish I would have now though,

 

[whitepass]

If the big three go under we will have a world wide depression. It goes like this the big three go down then all the part suppliers next the foreign car makers go down in US fallowed by world wide collapse.

 

[StorkNest]

Anyone who wants the demise of the auto/trucking industry hasn't researched the subject enough.
First part of Intermodal service is trucks and railroads working together, rail does the long haul, trucks the short. Kill trucks, you kill Intermodal which is BIG busiiness.
Second, there is a article in the recent Trains magazine about how autos helped railfans access areas they couldn't, some of those pictures we all like to see can only be taken by access with autos. Kill autos, you kill railfanning (not to mention other things). Your only choice left to get some of those great shots would be to ride railroads out there and either demand they stop for you (yeah, right) or jump off (and be branded a lunatic who must be saved from himself). I HIGHLY doubt a lot of people will walk or biike to those locations. And passenger trains don't go on some of those Subdivisions some railfans want to see part of.
Love it or not, autos and trucking are in some ways neccessary to railroading. Wanting to see the industries go under is madness.

Now regarding the TOPIC, what about the Saginaw Sub besides auto traffic makes it work? And thus how could it be continued? What about getting other business there? In my area, there used to be coal shipments to the ConEdison plant. The rails were reactivated but the plant still doesn't receive coal. That's because they extended the line for a new solid waste facility where part of a landfill was, the flatcars for this facility sometimes get backed up on the line that it is clear they block access to the plant by rail (they do have to leave spaces clear for vehicular access to the plant and another industry next door). Recycling and "green" industry seems to be growing. Could facilities be put in for this? Etc., etc.

 

[JCitron]

If the Big 3 go under, this will impact more than just the automobile industry, which can be seen already in the drop in traffic for other goods. The autmobile industry not only hires workers at their plants, they also supprt many smaller parts and materials suppliers. These small companies then get materials and parts from other manufacturers both locally and globally, so this isn't just a US thing anymore.

Let's look at a simple example. The steel mills are shutting down because the steel isn't needed right now to make the cars. This displaces workers, costs the company money that they could use to survive, and hurts the local community where the mill is. The local community had restaurants and other businesses that relied on the earnings from the workers at the steel mill.

Now taking this same mill and connecting it to the outside world and we have a bigger picture. The coal mines will reduce their output because of uneeded coal by the steel mills. This causes the mills to lay-off or reduce hours, thus causing a problem in that region of the country. Add to this, the iron ore that comes in and the towns around that industry, or the importing of scrap metal from anywhere in the country or the world.

This is only part of it, this will also affect the trucking industry, which it already has with a good number of companies either laying off workers or closing terminals. Conway is shutting 40 terminals in the US, and there are possibilities of company closure by many smaller companies in the region.

How do the railroads fit in?
They support both the incoming of materials on the supply-side as well as the finished-goods on the delivery-side. Now like the trucking companies, the railroads will now spread the unemployment across wider areas of the country because terminal located in outlying regions will have no reason to be open if they're not receiving any goods. This means that rail workers will end up being furloughed and lines abandoned or sold.

I could go on, but as Whitepass says, this would have a devastating blow on the US and force the country into a depression.

Chris --- I know what you mean about the drop off in traffic. I live up on the mainline to Maine, and now there is little freight if any coming in and out. Guilford (PanAM) has furloughed about 50 employess plus some managers. These are tough times and hopefully we can get out of them.

John

 

[chrisracer8903]

Another week has passed with some fairly good news. CSX has decided to keep the Saginaw Sub from Plymouth to Flint due to whenever they run small, but very profitable coal, grain, and chemical trains, they bring them alot of money, and due to LSRC takes 90% of these cars, CSX doesn't have to switch. They just do direct road service and just cut the power (Sometimes).

Although, CSX still wants to sell Plymouth to Grand Rapids, and even Rail America is interested on this line, too.

Another route not too far away that you all may have play of mine for Trainz was the CN Holly Sub, well they are having troubles, too. Their branch line in Pontiac to Lake Orion for GM Assemblies has lost the contract with GM therefore cutting E250 and E251 from the Holly Sub and now relocated out of Flint on the CN Flint Sub. That sucked because now only M390, M391, and C766 are the only trains you can see on the North-end of the Holly Sub, but this was CN's fault to raise prices when the "Big 3" is having problems itself. CN here is very bad when they come to customer service, although it's great to railfan because their trains have tons of GTW GP38s for power. Although us railfans of Michigan don't have much respect for CN for taking over the GTW. But anyways, rumor has it that CN may in the future let GLC/ TSBY run on the Holly Sub from Durand to Pontiac and allow the current 2-4 trains a day run on the Holly Sub with the GLC train (Making it 6 a day). Most of us though are concerned with the Lake Orion branch because now it's just a large storage locker for cars.

 

[illinoiscentral]

I've got to say it! The US government basicly bailed GM out, just like they did Chrysler way back when, who remebers the "K Car"? Cheers.

 

[Martynas]

Overall, almost all the industrial districts Detroito is abandoned ... I see Arial photos and saw a lot of abandoned factories, residential areas, railway yards and more.

I find it interesting that the Zug Island steel still running...

But the Michigan Central Station is abandoned for many years ...

and this is very sad...​

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[chrisracer8903]

Overall, almost all the industrial districts Detroito is abandoned ... I see Arial photos and saw a lot of abandoned factories, residential areas, railway yards and more.


I find it interesting that the Zug Island steel still running...

But the Michigan Central Station is abandoned for many years ...

and this is very sad...


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Zug Island has been doing well until the auto industries went in trouble and left the US Steel to cut down on steel production. That's why CSX has cut-down to 2 coke trains insted of 6 coke trains to Zug Island. As far as Michigan Central Station, majority of the station's lot down in Corktown is still in tact, but covered in weeds. The 2 mainline tracks past the station are still used for CP and CSX's trains into the tunnel to Canada, but not a good place to railfan because Corktown's crime rate and heavy watch from the boarder patrol and U.S. Customs.

 

[chrisracer8903]

It just gets worse, CSX today has announced that next month they will be shutting down both yards and the terminal here in Plymouth. :'( This includes cutting the D717 transfer train from Detroit, no more yard switching/ locals, and all locals south of here will be based out of Detroit. They are also removing the local out of Wixom giving no service to customers in Wixom including interchanging with the Michigan Air-Line Railway. They are also cutting the local from Lansing to Howell to 3 days a week by another train which is impossible to keep everything (as far as customers) running when most of us Michigan Railfans think they should of fired the incompedent crew of that train, not get rid of the train itself. Also, CP Rail/ SOO has been only running X500 when the train builds-up 50 cars or more (Which means it doesn't run every 2-3 days), and are even talking about "Buying-out" the contract and be-riding of the last train of SOO's exhistance here on CSX. Now all these trains arn't running everyday anymore, and CSX is distroying all these businesses when they should of been cutting-back on all these short/ uneconomical trains last year insted of leaving it until now where they are having problems cutting-back left-and-right and telling customers to "Get lost" and go to trucking. If CSX cuts out of Wixom (Which is from Plymouth being shut-down) it is 99% certain that the Michigan Air Line Railway will need to shut down and be torn-up like it has been speculated. Now there is only 2-4 trains a day that run daylight through Plymouth, the rest is all night/ early morning and can only hope these trains run late the night before out of Detroit, Toledo, Grand Rapids, or Flint to see them during the day. To think there was 25-30 trains (12-15 during daylight) last summer through here. I was optimistic before the fact we had a good amount of locals and yard jobs around here to see in compensation for the cut on road trains, but not anymore.