Crossrail on time on Budget…But

[amigacooke]

South East London? The Jubilee Line extension dips into southern riverbank, DLR doesn't even really count and, as you say it's 'crept' south of the river and the ELL goes off to the west beyond New Cross to connect to Clapham Junc. Meanwhile, there's a whole city out there in Southwark, Lewisham, Greenwich, Bexley, plus the outer boroughs of Croydon and Bromley - we're talking about a couple of million people without a decent tube line between them!

Now, to add insult to injury, there's a proposal for a new Crossrail - the first connected Buckinghamshire to the City, Crossrail II will connect Surrey to the City (south-west to north-east). You couldn't make it up!

Paul

I can't really see your point Paul, you seem to be determined to be annoyed even to the point of dismissing infrastructure projects because they don't suit your argument. Croydon, has the captal's only tram system, works well and runs in part along the course of former lines stretching out to Wimbledon, New Addington, Elmer's End etc.

Not sure why the DLR doesn't count, perhaps you could suggest a reason. London Bridge is being rebuilt to allow a higher volume of trains to pass through,

Thameslink has created a new station over the Thames at Blackfriers, the only one in London to have an entrance both north and south of the Thames.

There has been a massive programme to install lifts into stations to allow better accessibility. Sure vast swathes of London have no tube lines, but they have an extensive overground system to carry passengers into London.

Travelling into London is a journey I make most weekdays, and the modern stock is a vast improvement over the old slam door trains that I use to travel in.

Sure, it could be inproved, but as we know, there are some that think London gets too big a cut of the pie already.

 

[amigacooke]

Cornwall of the early 1970s was thriving place with fishing, mining, farming and tourism bringing a good standard of living to the Cornish people. With the exception of tourism the above industries are either now non-existent or very much diminished and with it that standard of living. However, it can be argued that many counties and cities all faced similar problems by the late 1970s and early 80s but many of them have recovered to greater or lesser extent, but not Cornwall along with several other quite large areas of the United Kingdom.

Again the reason for the above is quite straight forward and can be stated in one word, transport. Road links into Cornwall are somewhat “strenuous” especially in winter with Exmoor and Dartmoor being natural obstacles. Rail links from the Midlands, London and the North of England are reasonable as far as Plymouth but very poor beyond that.

Cornish industries disappeared because the railway infrastructure was insufficient? Do you really think it was that simple?

Fishing - I believe suffered badly after the UK's entry into the EEC, which allowed other European countries to deplete the stocks around Britain's coast.

Mining - simply became uneconomic, the cost of extracting tin was too high compared to other locations around the world. China clay still continues I believe, but I think the traffic has switched to road.

Farming - no idea on this topic, but I bet most farm produce is shifted out of Cornwall by road.

Tourism - cheap foreign holidays knocked Cornish tourism for six, cheaper to stay in Europe for a fortnight than to stay in Cornwall.

Road links - when the line to Cornwall was cut last winter, the reason Cornwall didn't starve was because the goods it needs are supplied by road. I belive they even have roads that don't go over Dartmoor and Exemoor.

 

[wholbr]

Hi Paul,amigacooke and everybody.
Amigacooke, with the greatest of respect I have to point out that you did not read my posting at #39 in this thread correctly. In that posting I in no way indicated that I felt that the Cornish traditional industries declined because of insufficient rail infrastructure. What I did state was that Cornwall has not recovered (along with other regions) from the decline of the late seventies and early eighties because of poor transport infrastructure (very different).

With regard to the industries of fishing and mining you are perfectly correct in what you advised on their decline. Dairy farming has also declined by way of European imports and arable farming is now highly mechanised. When manual labour is needed on a seasonal basis for the forgoing farms, it is supplied by employment agency companies normally using European Union migrant labour.

Tourism has expanded in the last few years with towns like Newquay and St Ives proving that you can make British destinations an all year round attraction through activities such as surfing, walking and themed holidays such as Atlantic storm watching in winter. (I have been those breaks and there is nothing like watching the huge Atlantic rollers crashing against the rocks at Cape Cornwall or other such places). Although employment in tourism is up it is often part-time and minimum wage for those employed.

Again respectfully with reference to your earlier posting, I have to point out that when the rail links to Cornwall and West Devon were cut last winter by the storms for nearly 8 weeks Cornwall certainly did run short of essential supplies due to the road infrastructure. I think it was on the night and following day of 14 - 15 March that the A38 the south of Dartmoor became impassable because of flooding along with the A30 to the North of Dartmoor also due to the same problem. The only major trunk road open into Cornwall for nearly 30 hours was the A39 (Atlantic Highway) through North Devon and North Cornwall where council employees worked up to 16 hour shifts to keep that road open. Throughout that week supermarkets in the county ran very short of supplies because of the breakdown of the transport infrastructure.

That event went largely unreported by our London orientated press and media due to the fact that the upper Thames Valley started flooding at the same time inundating the million pound plus homes along the rivers leafy banks. We had their residents appearing on television at prime time telling viewers what “awful” times they were having due to the fact their boardwalks etc where being flooded. No doubt the hotels in London such as Claridges and the Ritz had little trouble in accommodating these homeless/boatless refugees.

With all the above in mind amigacooke do you support Cornwall and other areas of the country in similar circumstances gaining upgraded rail infrastructure by way of the money being provided by the cancellation of HS2. Do you also feel that national taxation should continue to provide that finance even though it will not involve any London construction.

The importance of the railways in Britain was demonstrated graphically this week with all the major government and opposition figures visiting Scotland and in doing so travelling by rail. They went up there to try and persuade the Scottish people not to separate from the rest of the United Kingdom by voting for independence. That poll has been brought about by many Scottish people feeling that London always gets far too big a share of the British commercial, industrial and infrastructure pie.

Bill

 

[amigacooke]

Is all rail investment in London? I don't think so.

Plans for £38 billion investment in railways unveiled

 

[KarenB]

Is all rail investment in London? I don't think so.

Plans for £38 billion investment in railways unveiled

Dr. Spindoctor, £25 billion used to be called day to day operational expenses not new investment. The problem isn't that all new rail investment is in London but that the majority is in the south east and even there the Oster card gives you cheaper travel on the overground but train frequency diminished from 15 to 30 minute service on one route when Oster card came in, so what if the train is longer.

The people who live outside London aren't buying the spin doctor stuff and that's a problem. It means I want to keep my tax money in Wales not subsidising CrossRail.

Luv Karen

 

[amigacooke]

You may be interested in the following article as it supports both positions.

London is an asset for Scotland

 

[amigacooke]

The people who live outside London aren't buying the spin doctor stuff and that's a problem. It means I want to keep my tax money in Wales not subsidising CrossRail.

Luv Karen

I've tried to supply some empirical evidence, do you have any that suggests Welsh Money is being spent on Crossrail? Might it not be that the money generated by the South East of England is being used to finance Crossrail?

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.

Is all rail investment in London? I don't think so.

Plans for £38 billion investment in railways unveiled

Amigacooke, as Karen has already pointed out in her posting the above so-called £38 billion investment in rail infrastructure is really only “smoke and mirrors” as nearly two thirds of the finance is really only scheduled maintenance already quoted for in network rail’s programme. If anyone would like further information on the announcement and the derogatory comments it has brought forward just visit the rail UK forum or other such rail forums and search on the above announcement. If we then look at the remainder of the spending especially the electrification of the great Western main line you can also see further “smoke and mirrors” in that and how it affects rail passengers such as myself.

The upgrade of the great Western main line was announced two years ago in which only the Bristol to London section of the GWML will undergo electrification…..notice those words again, to London…from London.

However, many of the present diesel powered first great Western HST services out of Paddington run beyond Bristol to make their full service to Weston-super-Mare, Taunton or even Exeter. These services are heavily used by residents of North Somerset and East Devon as it gives them a straight through service to and from London.

When the electrified service opens in two years time from Bristol to London it will mean all those travelling from Somerset and Devon such as myself will have to change from the diesel powered HST’s at Bristol Temple Meads and onto the new electrified service for the rest of the journey. We have been informed that no diesel powered class 125 or 130 will be allowed on the Bristol to London section of line. The foregoing will actually add journey time to all passengers travelling from East Devon and North Somerset as it has been stated that there will be a minimum transfer time at Bristol Temple Meads of 15 minutes.

The above is not the best of it. Bristol Temple Meads at present has 15 platforms. To accommodate the fact that there will be often two trains in the station where at present there is one due to passengers changing trains, Network Rail is being forced to open two further platforms to accommodate the foregoing. This will involve spending millions of pounds to demolish/convert what is at present is a city centre car park into the two further platforms all once again to make a better service involving London.

As Paulw2 stated in his posting “you couldn’t make it up could you”

No wonder people want to leave the UK Union
Bill

 

[amigacooke]

Rail passenger journeys across Great Britain reach record levels

60.7% of all rail journeys in Great Britain started and/or ended in London.

 

[wholbr]

Hi amigacooke and Everyone.

I've tried to supply some empirical evidence, do you have any that suggests Welsh Money is being spent on Crossrail? Might it not be that the money generated by the South East of England is being used to finance Crossrail?

Amigacooke, the finance for crossrail is definitely being provided for by way of overall UK government expenditure. The announcement was made in the Chancellor of the exchequers March 2007 budget statement and then was confirmed in the 2009 government expenditure statement/review as payments for the construction commenced.

I believe that the Welsh along with the English and northern Ireland taxpayers would be contributing towards crossrail as neither the Welsh or Northern Ireland assemblies have any control over transport expenditure. Confirmation of all the foregoing can be found on the UK government website.

However, should transport for London request and receive finance from national taxation for a second crossrail from South West to North East London then you can “bet your bottom dollar” that the Welsh and Northern Ireland assemblies would immediately be campaigning for control over transport expenditure autonomous from the Westminster government. Along with the foregoing you would certainly have a great many English regions “up in arms” regarding yet more national taxation revenue being spent on rail/transport infrastructure for the London/south-east region.

60.7% of all rail journeys in Great Britain started and/or ended in London.

Amigacooke, perhaps you have unintentionally illuminated the problem regarding the pre-eminent position of London within the overall commercial and industrial balance of the United Kingdom. I would be the first to agree that London has done a great job in rebuilding itself to become one of the most predominant cities in the world with regard to commerce, finance and tourism since the dark days of the late 1970s when the rest of the world thought that Britain was finished.

However, other regions and cities have also made great progress since the above dark days. Within the foregoing it must also be accepted that they have not received the infrastructure development and support from central government that the London and South East region has gained.

Indeed some regions such as Cornwall, central and northern Wales along with several northern English regions have not moved themselves forward commercially or industrially at all since elimination of their traditional industries such as mining, shipbuilding and steel making.

Therefore, if the United Kingdom is to regain a commercial and through that economic balance then expenditure on transport infrastructure (especially rail) has to be evenly distributed throughout Britain. When the foregoing is accomplished perhaps we will find that 60 to 70% of all rail journeys will not start and finish in London.

Again I state, the above is what the Scottish Independence referendum is all about, simply London predominance.

Bill

 

[rjhowie]

Had been distracted elsewhere then re-found this thread (!). An earlier comment about what could happen in Scotalnd regarding rail progress away from London is to my mind a slight misnomer. In this northern part of the Kingdom the would-be government here tends to look after the railway progress so is not quite the same as regional matters in England & Wales. This is even more so in that final part of the nation in Ulster.

As far as London is concerned I can understand the needs due the size of the place and it's population keeps mushrooming due to ommigration and the tendency to large families thus putting pressure on everything including our world of railways. In fact the south-east will need a million new homes in the next decade or so and in turn put even more groans on the train system.

 

[Paulsw2]

This put it into perspective and helps to explain why I (and others on this thread) are so annoyed about the (mis)government of the UK in respect of infrastructure and transport expenditure:

On infrastructure spending, the north has lost out too: the £42bn high-speed rail project HS2 will never reach the north-east or Cumbria. The think-tank IPPR North calculated in 2011 that the UK National Infrastructure Plan allocated £2,731 of transport spending per head in London and the south-east – against £5 per head in the north-east.

[my emphasis] Source: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/11/devolution-regional-powers-scotland-north-east-england

It isn't just half the people of Scotland who want out of the UK, it's increasing numbers of English as well!

Paul

 

[rjhowie]

The Guardian was wrong in a a matter mentioned so it is not some perfection paper hence it is losing big money! It also argues a political corner like others. The article mentions that Scotland was building a new line and in the north of England they were arguing to re-open one. May I clarify this by saying there have been no actual "new" lines. The part of the Borders Railway (and only part of 30 miles) is a re-opening closed in Beeching's times. The other lines like Larkhall, Alloa, the Glasgow suburban Maryhill are all equally re-openings! Fare rises up here in the northern part of the kingdom tend to be different from south and usually lower.

The one thing that I find passingly irritable is that UK-wise if I buy a Railcard which offers big discounts over the UK it doesn't to my knowledge include Ulster when I go there for breaks! After all the GB government allocates spending money to Belfast and they in turn organise the spening including the only State railway so the UK taxpayer is doing the providing (!).

 

[Roy3b3]

HI Everybody.


Roy3b3, in your posting you have stated something which occurred to me when I opened this thread, that being crossrail would be an excellent route project for some ambitious trainzer to create. I have been up to London today and while travelling back to Paddington on the underground central line I was giving the route some further thoughts. Crossrail will be a 72 mile route on completion but over 40 miles of that will be underground through the new tunnels. Therefore, our content creator (who ever that may be) would not have to worry about line side scenery creation for a very large part of the route which would make it “just simple” to create.

Also it has to be said if you have seen one London Underground station you have seen them all. Therefore on creation of the first underground station on the line at let’s say Paddington, you could simply then copy and paste that same station all along the rest of the line just changing the name on each occurrence.

Hi Wholbr, I've been away travelling for 2 months and I missed any posts during this period.
You mentioned that the "Crossrail" is all underground and so every station would be a 'copy & paste' - so I guess that would be pretty easy for any Trainz designer. However, I did download alterr's underground layout "U-bahn Frankfurt 2012" which is half underground and half on the surface. They have gone to the trouble of creating every underground station quite differently,... and thus, develops a great interest in the layout. Anyway, I'm back in Australia, so I might leave this one to a 'Brit' with some design skills. Cheers,
Roy3b3

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.
Apologies Roy3b3 or not responding to your posting sooner as we have been very busy work wise in the company and I have had very little time for anything else for the last month or so which has included trainz. It has to be borne in mind that I am supposed to be retired and only went back to the company in May to help out for a few days, and I am still there (LOL)

Anyway, back to topic. With regard to Crossrail I believe the project is still progressing very well and could finish in front of schedule which would be a first for a British government-sponsored construction of any kind. With regard to copying and pasting the underground stations for use in a trainz route, I was only joking in that posting but it is true to say that if you have seen one London Underground station you have certainly seen them all (LOL again)

I am not sure if the designs for all the crossrail stations are available to the public at this point in time therefore even starting the route in trainz could be fraught with its problems prior to the real projects completion.

One London Underground route I have not seen in any simulator is the central line which I feel would make a good project for any trainzer who has the necessary time, patience, skill and research capability to complete it. Being one of the busiest lines on the London Underground system, crossrail is being constructed to run parallel to the central line in order to take some of the overcrowding pressures away from it. The District, Circle and Metropolitan lines will also benefit from the opening of crossrail again in regard to overcrowding pressures.

Anyway, Roy3b3 I hope you enjoyed your two months of travel as the wife and myself are planning something similar when I eventually get back into retirement. We wish to see again Switzerland in summer which can be stunning scenery wise and then for the first time Montana in the United States to see for ourselves those wonderful national parks and to go up and give one of those lovely looking bears a big cuddle.

In the meantime I can only dream and get on with the work.
Bill