Colin (Driver_Col) is tired!

Driver_Col

Active member
..... I am giving myself permission to publicly "vent" about Trainz! I really believe that, as I enter my 76th year, I am entitled to some expressive latitude so here goes:


Those of us who have created anything for Trainz can probably relate to the following scenario. You load up your first version of Trainz with a degree of trepidation and excitement, and soon realise that, from a creating perspective, it is not too difficult to work with.



So you have been busy creating, and feeling quite pleased with yourself, when a new edition of Trainz is released and which contains a number of apparent improvements. Of course "better" is always attractive to a sim user so you download it with renewed trepidation and excitement. Allowing for a number of initial issues, it quickly becomes your preferred version of Trainz despite some adaptation required for your earlier creations. The adaptation process can be a rather frustrating and perhaps laborious process however, the benefits outweigh the effort involved and soon all is well again.



Then a new edition of Trainz is released and which contains a number of apparent improvements. Of course "better" is always attractive to a sim user so you download it with renewed trepidation and excitement. Allowing for a number of initial issues, it quickly becomes your preferred version of Trainz despite some (once again) adaptation necessary for your existing creations.



There comes a point (at least it did for me), when I have to compare what I have functioning to my satisfaction vs what I could have with the latest version given the necessity to adapt everything once again.



I should perhaps clarify that, as a Route builder, adaptation tends to be a creative exercise rather than a technological one. i.e. if the latest version can make my Routes look better (and subsequently increase my personal pleasure), then I would be remiss if I did not proceed accordingly however, how many times do I want to go through overhauling Routes because of a potential visual improvement? It would appear that I spent as much time (perhaps more time) adapting my earlier Routes to T-ANE than it took to initially create them! As an aside, my Route building started in TRS2004 and proceeded through TRS2006, TC3, etc. etc., so considerable hours have been spent adapting Routes to the later versions of Trainz.



I am now in a rather confused state, no doubt aggravated by my age, where my interest in Trainz is in conflict with itself. I like TC3 because of its relative simplicity, albeit graphically primitive by today's standards. I also like T-ANE which was a giant leap forward to me when compared to its immediate predecessors, and now I have TRS22 (conveniently forgetting TRS19). Whereas TRS22 has some distinct visual advantages over T-ANE, they are not really sufficient for me to get too excited about and therein is my problem ... and the reason for this email.



It is difficult for me to decide to sink many hours into TC3 given its visual limitations. Whereas T-ANE is my initial choice of the version to spend my time with, and given that I have a collection of Routes functioning very well there, logic would suggest I just focus on that version however, and like life in general, it is not that simple because I have found ways to improve my Routes in T-ANE. Unfortunately, it involves a total re-landscaping and texturing exercise on each Route, which are pretty much the same dictates of TRS22. So if I want to improve my Routes, and if both T-ANE and TRS22 dictate a similar workload, then logic would suggest working with TRS22 ... except for that tropical lighting which looks rather out of place on a rural England railway scene. (I noticed a promo video a short time ago by N3V of a UK Route in TRS22. It looked very good, but was a night time setting. Nice way to get around the Australian outback lighting!).



In summary, I can argue with myself and go round in ever decreasing circles without actually committing to a specific direction. My advice from my "other me" is to just work in T-ANE because a T-ANE Route does present itself quite well in TRS22. In contrast, working in TRS22 does not provide any option to go backwards. All very logical, but I do have TRS22 installed, and it does offer some potential. So what was the point of all this? To simply express my frustrations with Trainz knowing very well that a few of you will be able to relate, and also to let you all know that I am taking a mental break from the pressures that Trainz seems to generate.



I really do not envy the N3V team as they have to balance the advantages of new design config and new features against the potential reduction of 3rd Party freeware content, with each new version of Trainz!



Regards to all. A tired Colin!

 
I coouldn't agree more. It's friustrating to install the latest ,"new and imporved" version of Trainz only to find your favorite route is now full of faulty assets and transparent trees..
In many ways, I feel '04 was Aurans strongest version. Relatively easy to create assets, strong community and some really wonderful working assets for their time. It's seems the atmosphere of friendship and camaraderie is gone and has been replaced with just another commerical "game". There's my lump of sugar added to your cup of coffee.
 
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I coouldn't agree more. It's friustrating to install the latest ,"new and imporved" version of Trainz only to find your favorite route is now full of faulty assets and transparent trees..
In many ways, I feel '04 was Aurans strongest version. Relatively easy to create assets, strong community and some really wonderful working assets for their time. It's seems the atmosphere of friendship and camaraderie is gone and has been replaced with just another commerical "game". There's my lump of sugar added to your cup of coffee.
Thanks Rick. That lump of sugar helped sweeten things a little! Regards. Colin.
 
I was just talking about some of this to a friend. I know exactly where you are coming from. I'm finding it hard to want to move up from TRS12 because of all the hoops I need to jump through to make the change, and I've been made aware that TRS2012 was not the greatest one made. (figures I'd get that one...lol). Good to know that the TANE works good. :)

I myself love to play a simulator game, but when you have to do so much to make things work right, it kind of takes away the enjoyment part, and causes me to look elsewhere for entertainment. I for instance, don't understand why all the tunnel splines built-in on TRS2012 cannot go straight when going diagonal on the graph, but all the tracks, and other splines can? I have always said recently to some, that our stress comes from too many choices, and not enough information.

I do hope you feel better soon my friend, stress does not do the body good. Take care :)
 
I was just talking about some of this to a friend. I know exactly where you are coming from. I'm finding it hard to want to move up from TRS12 because of all the hoops I need to jump through to make the change, and I've been made aware that TRS2012 was not the greatest one made. (figures I'd get that one...lol). Good to know that the TANE works good. :)

I myself love to play a simulator game, but when you have to do so much to make things work right, it kind of takes away the enjoyment part, and causes me to look elsewhere for entertainment. I for instance, don't understand why all the tunnel splines built-in on TRS2012 cannot go straight when going diagonal on the graph, but all the tracks, and other splines can? I have always said recently to some, that our stress comes from too many choices, and not enough information.

I do hope you feel better soon my friend, stress does not do the body good. Take care :)
Thanks for taking the time to share those thoughts HH. I was pretty certain that I would not be on my own with these feelings, but it is still nice to receive tangible assurances!!!! :) Regards. Colin.
 
I sympathise.

I think you nailed the crux of the matter in your initial post. This is something that, in my experience, applies to all evolving software products, not just Trainz.

So you have been busy creating, and feeling quite pleased with yourself, when a new edition of [name of software product] is released and which contains a number of apparent improvements. Of course "better" is always attractive to a sim user so you download it with renewed trepidation and excitement. Allowing for a number of initial issues, it quickly becomes your preferred version of [software product] despite some adaptation required for your earlier creations. The adaptation process can be a rather frustrating and perhaps laborious process however, the benefits outweigh the effort involved and soon all is well again.

I have experienced this, more or less, with most new releases of Trainz and many other products including Windows itself. I still recall my frustration in dealing with the "Ribbon" when it first appeared in MS Office but, and it took a while, I eventually adapted and could see its advantages.

I am currently going through the same process using Trainz Surveyor 2.0 but, like the "Ribbon", I am adapting and can see the clear advantages it has over Surveyor Classic. I am not completely there yet but that point is now much closer that it originally was.

As a route builder my favourite version of Trainz is Trainz Plus. The advantages it offers (S20, effect layers, UDS, "paint under" tools, to list just a few) means, to me at least, that there is no way that I would go back to using any earlier version. I have yet to try the MPS but that could come if a suitable project is on offer. My "favourite version" will probably change with the next release.

The modern world is about constant change - be it political, economic, social, personal or technological. While not all change is good no change at all would be far worse.

My opinions.
 
Absolutely must agree here as well. Nothing is more frustrating than having a great, working route with most everything you wanted and then "upgrade" to a later version of Trainz. Boom! There goes your route. As an example, ten of us built the Darjeeling Himalayan Railway on TS2004, warts and all. It has been upgraded for every version of Trains except for the model train version. Now, thankfully, Euromodeller has taken over from the very aging original crew (I'm 80 now and Peter is older yet) and is doing a wonderful job. But he will be beset with problems if he goes beyond TS2019 as the requirements will have changed yet again. It is extremely hard to hit a moving target.

The train simulator has become virtually a "hunt for assets and fix the ones you have" simulator.

Bill
 
I sympathise.

I think you nailed the crux of the matter in your initial post. This is something that, in my experience, applies to all evolving software products, not just Trainz.



I have experienced this, more or less, with most new releases of Trainz and many other products including Windows itself. I still recall my frustration in dealing with the "Ribbon" when it first appeared in MS Office but, and it took a while, I eventually adapted and could see its advantages.

I am currently going through the same process using Trainz Surveyor 2.0 but, like the "Ribbon", I am adapting and can see the clear advantages it has over Surveyor Classic. I am not completely there yet but that point is now much closer that it originally was.

As a route builder my favourite version of Trainz is Trainz Plus. The advantages it offers (S20, effect layers, UDS, "paint under" tools, to list just a few) means, to me at least, that there is no way that I would go back to using any earlier version. I have yet to try the MPS but that could come if a suitable project is on offer. My "favourite version" will probably change with the next release.

The modern world is about constant change - be it political, economic, social, personal or technological. While not all change is good no change at all would be far worse.

My opinions.
I agree totally with your perspective. In my situation, I seem to be at the proverbial "end of the road" with TRS22. Of course the human aging process is a strong influence on these kinds of decisions. Regards. Colin.
 
Absolutely must agree here as well. Nothing is more frustrating than having a great, working route with most everything you wanted and then "upgrade" to a later version of Trainz. Boom! There goes your route. As an example, ten of us built the Darjeeling Himalayan Railway on TS2004, warts and all. It has been upgraded for every version of Trains except for the model train version. Now, thankfully, Euromodeller has taken over from the very aging original crew (I'm 80 now and Peter is older yet) and is doing a wonderful job. But he will be beset with problems if he goes beyond TS2019 as the requirements will have changed yet again. It is extremely hard to hit a moving target.

The train simulator has become virtually a "hunt for assets and fix the ones you have" simulator.

Bill
Trying to "hit a moving target" is a good analogy, and the Trainz target is (naturally) always moving. However, the whole Trainz operation appears to be very dependent on 3rd Party freeware, a lot of which was/is created by my general age range. If enough of us get so pissed off that we no longer support the "latest and greatest" version of Trainz, will there be a noticeable impact on the Trainz business? We can only speculate. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Regards. Colin.
 
Colin, I think we all think this from time to time, if not all the time. It gets outright frustrating.

I don't mind new technology if it means improvements. I too started with TRS2004 as well way back going on 19 years ago now. Each version after that was met with changes and updates with some being better than others. I suppose as the product matured some things got better as they should but that wasn't always the case - remember the splines in space in TS2010 anyone, or the random spikey things in TRS2009 that would appear anywhere and anytime on a route?

Overall, bugs not counted, TRS2006 thru TS12 were more or less the same the same stuff except with ever so slight differences. The launcher was a different color, and the loading screen and menu were different but basically, we used the same program. Each version was a bolt on from the previous product in many ways. The graphics improvement, if any, were nil and the performance was the same between the versions.

Then we got to TANE which was supposed to be the best thing since white bread was sliced and put into polybags all-ready to eat at home. The problem I found with TANE was its stability. We thought that TRS2006 was bad... Geeze! There was a period where that product crashed if we looked at it wrong. Running routes was impossible also due to the broken AI and so many other bugs. That release of the new product was besieged with problems right from the start and it took more than a few service packs to make it useful.

TRS19 was supposed to be the better version and actually it was the better of the modern versions I think and put TANE into the corner to rest permanently for me. TRS22 came along and it really is the same as TRS19 but with more stability and some good under the hood improvements and some good new features in Plus which will hopefully make their way into the main version sooner than later. My disappointment though came with the graphics "updates" to TRS19. The first version of that was the fastest and really refreshing. After that, it became a muddy mess and heavy to use. TRS22 is faster than TRS19 but that was an easy bar to climb over after it was knocked down.

With that said, it's that forever moving target and inconsistencies is what gets my goat!

I have updated, replaced, updated, switched, updated and replaced the ATLS and TRC crossing components with each version since I used them starting in TS12. In some versions, the settings are done in the route while others it's in the session. The current iteration of Trainz + is setup in the route, but will that always be the case? What's going to happen in the next version are we going back to configuring everything yet again in the session?

This is the same with portals, stations, industries and everything else. Configuring and setting these kinds of assets is time consuming and quite painful, if maybe it was fun and interesting at first but for every version afterwards this became a painful repeat of the steps. People wonder why I don't use a whole lot of interactive industries. Well, here's your answer. This might be fine for a simple loop but when there are routes with cities, big terminals, and lots of interactive industries, this becomes a chore.

The other is the broken session editor. We used to be able to move around the route and click on things such as track marks and consists to add to the session editor when setting up drivers and commands. This is no longer the case with that screen locking out all other functions making session building, except for a simple session, cumbersome. I inquired about this and was ignored. Why? Was it because I stepped on someone's fifi feelings again?

Repairs? What asset repairs? Kidding! I learned a lot, and I mean A LOT about assets over the years. I won't go into detail on that now. I understand the need to improve content and remove typos from the config.txt files. I mean, desicription and catigory aren't right and throwing up an error for something like that is justified. This is the same for incorrectly using tabs in the config.txt file that cause extra quotes, or weird things in the config file, or creating content that's so huge that it'll take a Cray computer to load the assets up due to the number of polygons being so high. I understand the need to quiet down scripts. We don't need a chattery script searching each and every track mark, direction marker and signal on a route. This might be fine for a loop but on our big routes, it kills the program.

But...

If there are going to be changes, why not tell us? What's so difficult about publishing a list of changes we're going to come up against rather than wait until the program is released? We may complain about the upcoming changes, but at least we know what they are and can hopefully get a handle on them. Installing an update and finding out that the content is bad is not only heartbreaking but is also really rude especially when it comes with an "Oh by the way, we made some changes to the error checking now to kill more content unless you guys fix it. Have fun, don't ask for help, go visit the confusing wiki and pray the answer to your question might be there, bye."

For this, I give the CRG credit for their hard work they've been doing to update the content on the DLS, but this has become a forever project that unfortunately may never end like that forever nightmare we can never wake up from.
 
Colin, I think we all think this from time to time, if not all the time. It gets outright frustrating.

I don't mind new technology if it means improvements. I too started with TRS2004 as well way back going on 19 years ago now. Each version after that was met with changes and updates with some being better than others. I suppose as the product matured some things got better as they should but that wasn't always the case - remember the splines in space in TS2010 anyone, or the random spikey things in TRS2009 that would appear anywhere and anytime on a route?

Overall, bugs not counted, TRS2006 thru TS12 were more or less the same the same stuff except with ever so slight differences. The launcher was a different color, and the loading screen and menu were different but basically, we used the same program. Each version was a bolt on from the previous product in many ways. The graphics improvement, if any, were nil and the performance was the same between the versions.

Then we got to TANE which was supposed to be the best thing since white bread was sliced and put into polybags all-ready to eat at home. The problem I found with TANE was its stability. We thought that TRS2006 was bad... Geeze! There was a period where that product crashed if we looked at it wrong. Running routes was impossible also due to the broken AI and so many other bugs. That release of the new product was besieged with problems right from the start and it took more than a few service packs to make it useful.

TRS19 was supposed to be the better version and actually it was the better of the modern versions I think and put TANE into the corner to rest permanently for me. TRS22 came along and it really is the same as TRS19 but with more stability and some good under the hood improvements and some good new features in Plus which will hopefully make their way into the main version sooner than later. My disappointment though came with the graphics "updates" to TRS19. The first version of that was the fastest and really refreshing. After that, it became a muddy mess and heavy to use. TRS22 is faster than TRS19 but that was an easy bar to climb over after it was knocked down.

With that said, it's that forever moving target and inconsistencies is what gets my goat!

I have updated, replaced, updated, switched, updated and replaced the ATLS and TRC crossing components with each version since I used them starting in TS12. In some versions, the settings are done in the route while others it's in the session. The current iteration of Trainz + is setup in the route, but will that always be the case? What's going to happen in the next version are we going back to configuring everything yet again in the session?

This is the same with portals, stations, industries and everything else. Configuring and setting these kinds of assets is time consuming and quite painful, if maybe it was fun and interesting at first but for every version afterwards this became a painful repeat of the steps. People wonder why I don't use a whole lot of interactive industries. Well, here's your answer. This might be fine for a simple loop but when there are routes with cities, big terminals, and lots of interactive industries, this becomes a chore.

The other is the broken session editor. We used to be able to move around the route and click on things such as track marks and consists to add to the session editor when setting up drivers and commands. This is no longer the case with that screen locking out all other functions making session building, except for a simple session, cumbersome. I inquired about this and was ignored. Why? Was it because I stepped on someone's fifi feelings again?

Repairs? What asset repairs? Kidding! I learned a lot, and I mean A LOT about assets over the years. I won't go into detail on that now. I understand the need to improve content and remove typos from the config.txt files. I mean, desicription and catigory aren't right and throwing up an error for something like that is justified. This is the same for incorrectly using tabs in the config.txt file that cause extra quotes, or weird things in the config file, or creating content that's so huge that it'll take a Cray computer to load the assets up due to the number of polygons being so high. I understand the need to quiet down scripts. We don't need a chattery script searching each and every track mark, direction marker and signal on a route. This might be fine for a loop but on our big routes, it kills the program.

But...

If there are going to be changes, why not tell us? What's so difficult about publishing a list of changes we're going to come up against rather than wait until the program is released? We may complain about the upcoming changes, but at least we know what they are and can hopefully get a handle on them. Installing an update and finding out that the content is bad is not only heartbreaking but is also really rude especially when it comes with an "Oh by the way, we made some changes to the error checking now to kill more content unless you guys fix it. Have fun, don't ask for help, go visit the confusing wiki and pray the answer to your question might be there, bye."

For this, I give the CRG credit for their hard work they've been doing to update the content on the DLS, but this has become a forever project that unfortunately may never end like that forever nightmare we can never wake up from.
Hi John. Many thanks for adding your very detailed perspective. I understand that N3V is a very small operation with limited resources, but one either takes care of customers (which includes 3rd party freeware creators in this situation), or one accepts the consequences .... being dissatisfied customers and content creators which, in turn, must reflect on the proverbial "bottom line". Regards. Colin.
 
Hi Colin, agree with lots in your OP
Like you I started with TRS2004 and looking back had a lot of fun with that
started content creation, did really crazy stuff, some of which is still not possible today
Then came TRS2006 and its first Content Manager, making 500 pieces of content I made faulty
because of .texture.txt issues, got overworked trying to fix and left Trainz


In 2018 returned and was pleasantly surprised by the new TRS19
retired now and plenty time to work on Tranz stuff.


Main thing is to always have fun with it, not get frustrated over it
Newer is not always better, just use a version YOU like and enjoy.
And if you make content, older items work in newer versions
Newer items do not work in an older version.
So might be smart to make routes in TANE, you reach more people
Here I prefer TRS19 build 100240 (before any SP), its stable and gives me all I need
greetings GM
 
Hi Colin, agree with lots in your OP
Like you I started with TRS2004 and looking back had a lot of fun with that
started content creation, did really crazy stuff, some of which is still not possible today
Then came TRS2006 and its first Content Manager, making 500 pieces of content I made faulty
because of .texture.txt issues, got overworked trying to fix and left Trainz


In 2018 returned and was pleasantly surprised by the new TRS19
retired now and plenty time to work on Tranz stuff.


Main thing is to always have fun with it, not get frustrated over it
Newer is not always better, just use a version YOU like and enjoy.
And if you make content, older items work in newer versions
Newer items do not work in an older version.
So might be smart to make routes in TANE, you reach more people
Here I prefer TRS19 build 100240 (before any SP), its stable and gives me all I need
greetings GM
Well if the Netherlands pretty much agrees with me, what more do I need!!!! Many thanks GM for taking a few moments out of your life to comment. Regards. Colin.
 
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