Amtrak may have competition...

[amtrak2041864]

Theses two reports say it all. To much for me to explain.

Link 1

Link 2

 

[rjhowie]

Well that is is opinion certainly but from a distance, I cannot see a fully private passenger set ip over there in the USA today. Sadly the 1940's are gone along with most of the non-freight. That's how I appreciate what we have.

 

[nikos1]

All you need to see is the (R) next to his name to see that all he is trying to do is kill Amtrak and associated passenger trains to save some infinitesimal amount of money so that he can claim to his constituents how he is saving the taxpayers money while spending 100's of times what is saved on new armaments that will never benefit anyone in the US.

 

[wilh]

Here's the issue, I see. Most (maybe all) railroad operators these days are focused on their freight operations. If passenger trains would suddenly be given back to them, I think we would end up losing long-distance passenger service as the freight would take presedence over the passenger service (which is why Amtrak was made in the first place).

 

[Euphod]

All you need to see is the (R) next to his name to see that all he is trying to do is kill Amtrak and associated passenger trains to save some infinitesimal amount of money so that he can claim to his constituents how he is saving the taxpayers money while spending 100's of times what is saved on new armaments that will never benefit anyone in the US.

Curious as always. The first and most important obligation of the Federal Government of the USA is to provide for the national defense. Providing rail transportation is not even in the program. If the Federal Government and Amtrak are so efficient and valuable to this nation then they should have no problem defending their worth against any bid free enterprise could muster. What are you afraid of, Comrade?

 

[RRSignal]

Given Amtrak is a poster child of government incompetence, I wouldn't mind seeing some competition.

 

[slabay]

Mica just seems to have an axe to grind with Amtrak for some reason.

I don't see Amtrak being a monopoly as much as the fact that Amtrak is the only rail provider- the difference being that a monopoly uses its position as being the only provider to prevent others from entering the market. FEC is studying a passenger rail plan for the east coast of Florida (Mica's home state - and mine, for that matter), and the California plans have already been cited. Reading the Wikipedia article in the "Formation of Amtrak" section, it says that the railroads were allowed to join Amtrak or remain independent. This was nothing that was forced on them, and most of them didn't want to be in the passenger business anymore anyhow.

Nobody really does it today because it is not profitable to do so. Air travel is cheap (but a royal PITA anymore, thanks to the TSA) and airlines can go anywhere. Passenger service is limited to the railroad's property- FEC's proposed service can't go anywhere but Florida without negotiating with CSX or NS for trackage rights.

 

[opus722]

It seems Mica pulls this stunt every new legislative session. It's an easy out to go after things like Amtrak, PBS, NASA, etc. whose combined budgets (roughly 19.5 billion) doesn't even come close to a single new Ford-class carrier and its air wing (31.2 billion). Of course Elmo and Big Bird riding Amtrak to Cape Canaveral doesn't allow one to impose one's imperial will on people as well as 100k ton war machines. It's going to fail, and I doubt it will even get out of committee, but he can go back to his constituents and talk big about how he's fighting "socialism" or whatever the boogeyman de jure is now.

 

[nikos1]

Curious as always. The first and most important obligation of the Federal Government of the USA is to provide for the national defense. Providing rail transportation is not even in the program. If the Federal Government and Amtrak are so efficient and valuable to this nation then they should have no problem defending their worth against any bid free enterprise could muster. What are you afraid of, Comrade?

We already have all the national defense we need even if we stopped all new orders for more hardware right now, what we have been doing lately has all been national offense. Building interstate highway is not in the program either, nor is subsidizing airports or building waterways. There is no real desire to ensure passenger service through private means in this proposal, its just a way to stop funding Amtrak because now private companies are handling it, the private companies will lose money and stop service as soon as the initial contract is up and we will have no passenger trains, exactly what Mica wants. Passenger rail rarely makes money, transporting people rarely does, airlines only do because their fixed infrastructure is subsidized. Thankfully this stupid idea will probably never make it out of committee.

 

[NIARTcar]

If the Federal Government and Amtrak are so efficient and valuable to this nation then they should have no problem defending their worth against any bid free enterprise could muster. What are you afraid of, Comrade?

True, but much of the point here is that there is little revenue generation in this business. Though competiton would be nice, there is not enough money here to pay overhead, let alone generate a profit. If rail transit is going to move to the private sector, there needs to be a significant jump in operating efficiency, and consolidation of commuting and travel networks to support a structured system. I don't see any of that happening soon. So, until then Amtrak is going to need subsidies from government just as the city bus lines recieve.

EDIT:
Looks like Nikos beat me to it!

cheers

 

[opus722]

Also consider than Rep. Mica received $176,295 from the airline industry, his top donors, this election cycle. I'm sure this has nothing to do with his disdain for Amtrak.

 

[RRSignal]

True, but much of the point here is that there is little revenue generation in this business. Though competiton would be nice, there is not enough money here to pay overhead, let alone generate a profit. If rail transit is going to move to the private sector, there needs to be a significant jump in operating efficiency, and consolidation of commuting and travel networks to support a structured system. I don't see any of that happening soon. So, until then Amtrak is going to need subsidies from government just as the city bus lines recieve.

EDIT:
Looks like Nikos beat me to it!

cheers

Actually, airlines pay out the ying yang and subsidize themselves. And passengers pay all sorts of taxes per-ticket. The primary means of the aviation industry paying for itself and its infrastructure is the Airport and Airway Trust Fund, which derives its revenue from all manner of user fees, including fuel taxes. Then, on top of it all, end-users pay all sort of other fees, e.g. 911 fee, other security fees, departure and arrival taxes, local airport use taxes, etc. Plus, airlines can charge their own fees. It's not uncommon to see $30 in taxes and fees tacked on to a $99 ticket and $50+ onto a $150 base fare ticket.

 

[RRSignal]

We already have all the national defense we need even if we stopped all new orders for more hardware right now, what we have been doing lately has all been national offense. Building interstate highway is not in the program either, nor is subsidizing airports or building waterways. There is no real desire to ensure passenger service through private means in this proposal, its just a way to stop funding Amtrak because now private companies are handling it, the private companies will lose money and stop service as soon as the initial contract is up and we will have no passenger trains, exactly what Mica wants. Passenger rail rarely makes money, transporting people rarely does, airlines only do because their fixed infrastructure is subsidized. Thankfully this stupid idea will probably never make it out of committee.

The Constitutiton specifically empowers Congress to provide for the national defense. It DOES NOT directly empower Congress for the funding and subsidy of any one mode of transportation, although Article I, Section 8, does provide for the establishment of "Post Offices and Post Roads."

 

[Blutorse4792]

A fair point, from a legal standpoint. I also dislike this recurring notion that we need to trim our admittedly bloated defense budget (which will end up putting a lot of people out of work in the private sector and hurting our economy since military production has become so entangled with it) so we can instead blow that money on other pet projects.

 

[Engineerkenny]

All you need to see is the (R) next to his name to see that all he is trying to do is kill Amtrak and associated passenger trains to save some infinitesimal amount of money so that he can claim to his constituents how he is saving the taxpayers money while spending 100's of times what is saved on new armaments that will never benefit anyone in the US.

this is sad for one of my uncles he works for amtrak in NJ I mean i don't think he drives them anymore but i think it was he fixes them but still this sucks I mean why?
why would this guy try to kill amtrak?:'(

 

[RRSignal]

this is sad for one of my uncles he works for amtrak in NJ I mean i don't think he drives them anymore but i think it was he fixes them but still this sucks I mean why?
why would this guy try to kill amtrak?:'(

Let me explain it this way: Go to work 40+ hours a week. At the end of the week, cash your check. Then, take the cash and flush it down the toilet. Does that make much sense? Why should Americans flush $1.5 billion a year?

To be sure, Amtrak has a few viable routes. But Amtrak, which is typical of a government entity, is stunningly incompetent. I'd rather drive to DC than take the train, because Amtrak's reservation system is so badly screwed up (especially if you make reservations over the phone) that it's not worth the hassle, let alone the reliability issues. Mind you, I'm a pretty serious PRR fan.

Edit: P.S. Instead of flushing your paycheck, you CAN donate it to Amtrak, you know. Just something to think about.

 

[Blutorse4792]

To be sure, Amtrak has a few viable routes.

Out of curiosity, do you happen to know which ones? I seem to recall that the electric ones out east make a bit of a profit, but only after being pumped full of subsidies and the like.

 

[RRSignal]

Out of curiosity, do you happen to know which ones? I seem to recall that the electric ones out east make a bit of a profit, but only after being pumped full of subsidies and the like.

I'm not 100% certain about the profitability of any part of Amtrak, but I seem to recall that the Northeast Corridor was capable of running at a profit or breaking even, eliminating the need for subsidy. I don't know if that statement only covered operating costs or capital costs as well, but even a quick estimate of the New Jersey segment of the corridor suggests that small portion may contribute 20-40% of the operating costs of the entire Amtrak system, so I can certainly believe the corridor can sustain it's own operating and probably capital costs. I would think any high-density, commuter-oriented route could do that, though the NEC is the only one that I know of that I am fairly certain can sustain itself. Perhaps the Capitol Corridor could be self-sustaining as well, though I don't know as much about that.

 

[H222]

Pretty sure the Acela and Auto Train make some money, the Acela for sure, but I'm not so sure about the auto train

Also, this guy's proposal is both intelligent and stupid, it would save the gov't 1.5 bil a year, but would also completely kill passenger service (anything out west especially, except for maybe some shorter california routes) as private companies aren't going to volunteer to lose money - why doesn't the government trim down on some other expenses? 560 billion is the US defence budget for example. (Only one I knew lol)

As a cold-hearted politician it makes sense, as a user of the trains or a lover of the trains it would hurt

Jamie

 

[amtrak2041864]

Just recently A buddy of mine went to D.C. he would of took the Acela if he had the money and if he didn't need a car. He said the train is fast, driving took him 4 hours.