ABC: CCTV use in spotlight after privacy ruling - (not rail related, but could be)

Red_Rattler

Since 09 May 2003
While it's not rail related, I'm posting this on this forum here, as this could and possibly have an affect to those rail systems that use CCTV cameras. If a mod/admin finds it off-topic, then just lock it or delete it, if need be.

I'm not saying that it could affect rail/tram enthusiasts, but the possible potential is now there for it it to do so.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-03/cctv-use-in-spotlight-after-ruling/4668722?section=nsw
The New South Wales Government is reviewing a decision that raises doubts about the legality of CCTV cameras installed by local councils.

Shoalhaven City Council was forced to switch off CCTV cameras in the centre of Nowra, south of Wollongong, after the NSW Administrative Decisions Tribunal ruled they breached the Privacy Act.

The tribunal was not satisfied the signage near the cameras adequately informed people about their privacy implications, and ruled the council had not shown that filming people was reasonably necessary to prevent crime.

Shoalhaven Mayor Joanna Gash says the ruling is disappointing and makes it extremely difficult for councils to help police reduce crime.

The case was brought by resident Adam Bonner, who objected to the council recording and storing footage of him.

He argued it was not the council's role to collect evidence for the purposes of prosecuting crime and used expert evidence to show crime had increased after the cameras were installed.

The tribunal agreed, and ordered the council to apologise to Mr Bonner and refrain from any conduct that continues to breach the act.

Mr Bonner says he hopes a precedent has been set.

"Councils - both Shoalhaven Council and other councils in New South Wales - have been put on notice that people do have a right to protect their privacy," Mr Bonner said.

Kiama MP Gareth Ward, who was the council's deputy mayor when the cameras were installed, says he is appalled by the decision.

"This potentially has implications right around the state of New South Wales," he said.
 
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It seems that if one is on a public street, where there is no expectation of privacy, video surveillance is allowed. That is one point.

But, if a railroad Co. or other business for that matter, does surveillance of it's own property, that would seem to be okay. They are just monitoring their own property. Same thing as having a guard patrolling the premises.
I do not understand how ones privacy is infringed on in a public setting. But, lawyers and courts do weird things!
 
Jlp1551, if I am correct, ANY organisation that uses CCTV cameras in that council area in public, or, which DOES include rail lines, and stations, are now prevented from turning them on.

Mods, I need to mention politics here, as it IS related. The NSW premier and the police are quite angry at this decision, and are in the process of doing something.

This ruling could eventually effect transport enthusiasts (& anyone with a camera), and that is the reason I thought it needed to be posted, even though it is not strictly related to rail - at the moment, except as possibly noted above.

http://blogs.smh.com.au/photographers/archives/2007/02/photography_is_not_a_crime.html
PRIVACY: "A person, in our society, does not have a right not to be photographed." So stated Justice John Dowd in a 2001 case (R v Sotheren) in the NSW Supreme Court. In Australia there is no right to privacy. If you don't want to be photographed sun-baking topless on a beach then don't sun-bake topless on a beach. Oops! You did it again? You got out of a car after forgetting to don some undies and now your genitals are all over the internet? That's your problem, or one of them at least.

Yes, I know this is a very early time to post.
 
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here in the UK we are the most monitored country in the world, But it has been proven that cctv does not deter crime merely moves the problem elsewhere! It is simply being used to monitor people going about their business legitimately. It is time people fought back . Also from a railway point of view rail enthusiasts have been abused and cameras confiscated on the pretense of "Terrorist" activity This was stopped after a vociferous campaign in the railway and national press as an infringement of rights and led to British Transport police issuing guidelines http://www.btp.police.uk/advice_and_information/travelling_safely/rail_enthusiasts.aspx
 
Hi everybody
here in the UK we are the most monitored country in the world, But it has been proven that cctv does not deter crime merely moves the problem elsewhere! It is simply being used to monitor people going about their business legitimately. It is time people fought back . Also from a railway point of view rail enthusiasts have been abused and cameras confiscated on the pretense of "Terrorist" activity This was stopped after a vociferous campaign in the railway and national press as an infringement of rights and led to British Transport police issuing guidelines http://www.btp.police.uk/advice_and_information/travelling_safely/rail_enthusiasts.aspx[/QUOTE]

It may well be that we are the most monitored country in the world when it comes to CCTV cameras but there are many of us here in the UK that are not too upset about that. Recent figures show that violent crime has fallen substantially in the last few years and that is undoubtedly due to the surveillance cameras having a deterrent effect on those who may wish to mug and assault others for reasons of theft or just for the pure hell of it.

But there is also a more serious reason for having CCTV cameras in abundance than even the above if that were not enough. Britain has been a victim of terrorist threat and assault which has been sustained over the last 30 years. The 7/7 London Underground bombings are proof enough that those involved in planning terrorism often have the rail system in mind as an object as stations and trains are seen as “good targets” when someone feels the need to cause the maiming and deaths of as many as possible.

As someone who travels by rail in the course of his work substantially throughout the UK I am only too glad to see the British transport police questioning and removing those wishing to photograph railway infrastructure and equipment from stations. As I stated in a different thread on this forum a week or two ago, a group of us as passengers waiting at Liverpool lime Street station witnessed the transport police aggressively interrogate several so-called rail fans (or train spotters as they used to be known) for photographing what appeared to be the signalling equipment and other infrastructure from the end of a platform. They were then removed from the station following the altercation (whatever the police advice may say) and that is the second time I have seen such action by the police over the course of the last few months.

CCTV cameras have proved invaluable in apprehending and as proof in court so often in recent times that in my view the more we have the better. Only a week or so ago some subhuman was apprehended on the basis of CCTV images when he snatched an 84-year-old woman’s handbag and this was shown on the national and local news as they appealed for anyone who may have known the criminal.

With CCTV, If you had nothing to hide you have nothing to fear and if it keeps the violent crime figures going down and acts as a deterrent to those wishing to cause havoc and death on the British public transport system then let’s double the number of these cameras that are available to those whose job it is to protect the public from the scum who would hope to get away with the above.

Bill
 
http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1480141/urgent-review-after-council-cctv-shutdown/?cs=2452
(WAIT ON! Their is a picture of this fool (Their are more suitable words!)
http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/1482526/no-apology-as-cctv-battle-spreads-wider/?cs=298

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/1480345/blog-cctv-decision-a-blow-to-crime-fighting/?cs=304
Occasional local resident Adam Bonner brought the action in the ADT against Shoalhaven City Council claiming that the capturing of his image by the Council breaches privacy legislation on the grounds that he did not consent to his image being captured.
Putting aside that Mr Bonner has had no issue posing for photographs for the local newspaper as part of media associated with his campaign, I am all too aware of Mr Bonner’s opposition; indeed, I was the Deputy Mayor of Shoalhaven City Council that pushed for and had the cameras successfully installed in the Nowra CBD.
The ADT has said that an apology to Mr Bonner is warranted in view of the invasion of his privacy. Mr Bonner has said that my name should be added to the list of those who should present an apology to him for the actions I have taken in seeing the cameras installed.

* He won’t be getting one. *
 
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As someone who travels by rail in the course of his work substantially throughout the UK I am only too glad to see the British transport police questioning and removing those wishing to photograph railway infrastructure and equipment from stations. As I stated in a different thread on this forum a week or two ago, a group of us as passengers waiting at Liverpool lime Street station witnessed the transport police aggressively interrogate several so-called rail fans (or train spotters as they used to be known) for photographing what appeared to be the signalling equipment and other infrastructure from the end of a platform. They were then removed from the station following the altercation (whatever the police advice may say) and that is the second time I have seen such action by the police over the course of the last few months.

Well i'm glad i don't live there then out here as long as you are not interfering with railway property or operations then you are still free to take pic's and as long as you act respectively to any authority who do question you then i'm sure any copper with a bit of common sense would let you on your way.
If they really need the info that bad to mean any one any harm they only have to Google it anyways. Stopping people participating in their hobby is taking the Terrorist Threat too far and in the end it means the baddys win.
Mick.
 
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Hi Mick and everybody.
Well i'm glad i don't live there then out here as long as you are not interfering with railway property or operations then you are still free to take pic's and as long as you act respectively to any authority who do question you then i'm sure any copper with a bit of common sense would let you on your way.
If they really need the info that bad to mean any one any harm they only have to Google it anyways. Stopping people participating in their hobby is taking the Terrorist Threat too far and in the end it means the baddys win.
Mick.

Sorry Mick, but I seem to recall that people where participating in their sport/hobby (marathon running) when terrorists struck in Boston USA only a week or two ago. I also seem to recall that it was CCTV pictures that led to the killing of one of the bombers and the apprehending of the other.

It may well be that people taking photographs of railway infrastructure or at railways stations are doing so for perfectly innocent reasons. It could be for the route they are building in trainz or even Railworks. However, in this day and age there is at some time going to be somone somewhere who is taking those photographs or anything but innocent reasons. The transport police and other security services have a very difficult job in trying to protect passengers, employees and railway infrastructure from those who would wish to do harm to all the above.

Remember a terrorist only has to be lucky once, the security services have to be lucky all the time. One failure can lead to incidents such as the 7/7 London Underground bombings.

Bill
Posted from Southampton to Bristol Temple Meads regional rail service on approach to Bristol
 
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