A few questions about building stuff in Surveyor.

Veristek

New member
Hey all.

I got back into Trainz after a month's break. I'm getting back on my huge route I'm building, and as a newbie, I have quite a few questions. Any help would be appreciated!

My route I'm planning and building is a 4-track main line with several branches off it. I plan for the route to go through urban areas, heavy forests, a desert, along windswept cliffs, and through suburban areas (like the NEC). I don't know how long my route will be- I know I want it at least 100 miles long, and might be as long as 200 - 300 miles eventually.

Here's my questions:

1. I messed up placing an apshalt terrain around the seaport I placed. How do I erase / remove that terrain and return it to empty wireframe?

2. Is there any good bridges and tunnels that are 4 tracks? I'm stuck using 2 track bridges and 2 track tunnels.

3. Are there any retaining walls that are more than 15 units tall? My trenches are 10 units deep, but the trench leading to my seaport reaches 20 units deep so I have to use two retaining walls. I also am trying to build retaining walls along a river, and the river wall is 30 units deep.

4. I'm a little confused on the signals. I'm trying to understand how signals work- I know the basics of green, red, and yellow lights. However, at my terminal station and multiple "X" switches, I placed like 20 signals. I'm not sure how to set up the light signals for switches so that if a train runs on a parallel track, the signal will be red, meaning "Do not take the switch cross-over yet" but at the same time, green for "Go ahead on this track (continue on it instead of switching over) as it's all clear". In the builder, there's signals with 1, 2, and 3 lights on top of each other, adding to my confusion.

5. I'm struggling to get the right spacing between my tracks. The catennary doesn't seem to work on my tracks since the overhead wires don't line up. Some catennary wires are further out than others, but none of them seem to match my tracks. My tracks are placed in a way that all the yellow / white circles touch each other with a slight overlap.

6. I'm trying to build a good railroad trench system that runs for about 10 miles, very similiar to the trench system in Boston for the MBTA commuter rail. The trench system has tunnels, road overpasses, and a couple "underground" stations. However, the Boston trench system covers 3 tracks, and the one in LA does 2 tracks. Mine needs to cover 4 tracks.


I think thats all for now. I want and need to finish track-laying before I even think about doing scenery, textures, and stuff like that. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated!
 
Good luck on your project.
1) you cant erase the texture but you can paint over it.

2) http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=23860

3) do a search for wall as they are often found under various names

4) I tend to use less signals as it can get very confusing for AI trains and can lead to overruns and derailments. Diamond crossing rule is needed for X crossings.

5) spacing varies depending on which country the track and catennary was made for.
 
I found a nice 4 track tunnel, but still struggling with finding 4 track bridges. I'm trying to find either a trestle bridge or an arch bridge (like Hell Gate Bridge in NYC). The only 4 track bridges I could find were Ben's bridges which are swing bridges- not the type I'm looking for.

Anything out there?
 
Do a forum search for ERAZOR and Helpermesh. These two together will take you back to the original grid. There are two versions of Helpermesh, use the blue one.

Cheers

Narrowgauge
 
Referring to the OP re Retaining Walls I don"t know what "15 units" height is but Stone Retaining wall Dirty or Clean is my most used Retaining wall.As for 4 track Bridges I"ll have a llok when I get back home, but certainly the new FMA UK bridges will take 4 tracks.Type FMA into Username on the DLS and they"re on page 1 or 2 of the FMA content.
 
Referring to the OP re Retaining Walls I don"t know what "15 units" height is but Stone Retaining wall Dirty or Clean is my most used Retaining wall.As for 4 track Bridges I"ll have a llok when I get back home, but certainly the new FMA UK bridges will take 4 tracks.Type FMA into Username on the DLS and they"re on page 1 or 2 of the FMA content.

The "units" I'm referring to is the height. The retaining walls that came with the game only cover cliffs or ditches that are 15 meters tall... I dunno if Trainz measures the height and gradients in meters or just "units".

You know the "Use height", "get gradient", "current height", etc. in Surveyor where you put in the number you want to place the track, building, terrain, etc. at the specified height you want. The maximum is 3000 and -3000... I think that's measured in meters, could be wrong.
 
4-track bridges are quite rare in the real world. What usually happens is as usage increases to the point a single 2-track bridge is insufficient to handle the traffic, a second 2-track bridge is built next to the original.

I've never heard of a 4-track trestle and ya'll know I like trestles, lol (doesn't mean I couldn't make one tho).

Besides the swing bridges, I have made 3 different 4-track deck plate girder spans (kuid2:210518:2202, 2203, and 2204) and 3 different 4-track thru plate girder spans (kuid2:210518:2205, 2206, and 2207). These are not moveable bridges. Perhaps not what you have in mind but you might take a peek.

If'n ya don't find anything suitable, I might be able to make a few for you. Poly count gets to be a bit of a problem on 4-track moveable bridges (but not on fixed ones).

Ben
 
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Try "MB FS Quad Brick Rail Viaduct" KUID 35412:38131 or "MB Quad Plate Girder Bridge" KUID 35412:38120 . Also Search the DLS using the term "Quad"...:p PS "Brick Wall 25M" is actually 20 Metres tall.
 
I'd like to know if your bridges can be extended or shortened, Ben. I may need bridges to span anywhere between 100 meters for small streams or crossing roads, and some as much as 1000 meters for big rivers or inlets for example. I sure could use those girder bridges.

Is it possible to make a bridge with a trestle (these steel crosses above the bridge) or an arch bridge like the Hell Gate bridge in NYC? I'm trying to have a bit of variety in quad tracked bridges- instead of one bridge over and over throughout the route. I tried placing the Auran-built arch bridges that came packed with the game, but they don't work too well stacked side by side. I have to break up my quad tracks to make it work, and 2 stacked bridges doesn't bode well for poly-count.

----------------------------

On a side note, I was wondering if there's any good underground mainline stations? Ones similiar to Penn Station (NYC), Grand Central station (NYC), and Back Bay station (Boston), comes to mind. My stations need to be 500m long to accomodate 12 - 16 car Amtrak Clocker trains which will be the longest passenger trains in my planned route. I saw a few subway stations that look nice, but they're only 100m or 150m long and don't snap to each other to make a 500m subway station that I need.

Any recommendations?

One more thing- I was wondering if there's a fixed track or something that can transition between UK gauge and USA gauge? There's some nice UK stuff and USA stuff I'd like to use, but they don't line up. The USA tracks and layouts have tracks spread further apart than the UK's are.

Thanks so much for the help so far, guys! I'm getting closer to my dream route (grin).
 
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The 4-track bridges I've made so far are not splines however, I could make one of each (deck and thru plate types) as a spline so they could be extended to whatever length you need. Some of my 7-mile bridge parts get extended for close to 2 miles to re-create the complete bridge so length is not a problem.

The only possible deterrent is the poly count. Trainz imposes a limit of around 18,000 polys per image file (don't ask me why - it just does). More then that and nasty things happen. Splines are contained in 3 image files so everything must fit within them. Pretty much any kind of bridge can be made as a spline as long as you stay within the poly-count limit (which can get a bit tricky now and then).

Let me know what you have in mind. Pics , drawings, one of my fixed items you'd like converted to a 4-track spline, etc. I'll see what I can do.

Hopefully someone else will check in with a reply to your non-bridge questions. Lotsa good guys out there willing to help.

Ben
 
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The 4-track bridges I've made so far are not splines however, I could make one of each (deck and thru plate types) as a spline so they could be extended to whatever length you need. Some of my 7-mile bridge parts get extended for close to 2 miles to re-create the complete bridge so length is not a problem.

The only possible deterrent is the poly count. Trainz imposes a limit of around 18,000 polys per image file (don't ask me why - it just does). More then that and nasty things happen. Splines are contained in 3 image files so everything must fit within them. Pretty much any kind of bridge can be made as a spline as long as you stay within the poly-count limit (which can get a bit tricky now and then).

Let me know what you have in mind. Pics , drawings, one of my fixed items you'd like converted to a 4-track spline, etc. I'll see what I can do.

Hopefully someone else will check in with a reply to your non-bridge questions. Lotsa good guys out there willing to help.

Ben

I appreciate your offer of help, Ben. Thanks so much!

I looked over some of your bridges and I liked your truss bridges. I found two that could work well for crossings in the countryside:

kuid 210518:8035:2 (Trestle_Kit_Lenticular_Truss_4)
kuid 210518:8026:2 (Trestle_Kit_Deck_Plate_Girder_4)

Both those bridges are splines according to your descriptions on each page.

I was thinking of two more bridge types- one for desert and canyon terrain like in New Mexico and Arizona... and an urban type of bridge.

Canyon bridge:

ca-154_cold_spring_bridge_10.jpg


Something like this could work.

As for the urban bridge, I'm wondering if you're willing to try a suspension bridge or a post-modern cable bridge? Here's a cable bridge I had in mind, the Zakim Bridge:

Zakim_bridge.JPG


d6.jpg


Here's the bridge specs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakim_Bridge

Or do you think it'd be better to build another post-modern urban bridge? I'm trying for a post-modern train route set in 2010 - 2020, or so.

I was also wondering if these bridges can have adjustable height? Meaning if I had to cross a 5 meter deep depression, a 20 meter deep river, a 40 meter deep canyon, etc. Or are bridge heights set to certain heights?

Again, I appreciate you willing to do this for me!
 
I did some looking too:

The lenticular spline is an old (circa 1880) design wooden span. It would never be made into more then a 2-track bridge and I'm doubtfull about that. I can do it but it won't be anywhere near prototype and certainly won't fit your 2010 to 2020 era (stick out like a sore thumb, lol). It should also be on masonry piers, not wood.

The canyon bridge is quite similar to my Niagra Bridge 2 (kuid2:210518:2287:1). You might take a peek at it. Its not 4 track but it wouldn't take much to make a pair of 4-track versions (one with and one without the deck plate girders on the ends). These would have to be fixed bridges (not splines).

I'll pass on the suspension bridge if you don't mind (dosn't flip my switch, ha ha). Others have made them. Hopefully someone will check in and offer.

To the best of my knowledge, all of my bridges are height adjustable and you can change the "by how much" by changing the values in the config files height-range entry (in meters) if you need greater range. The real limiting factor is how tall are the bridge piers. I sometimes make them artificially high so folks can cross deep ravines. The unused part is just buried in the ground.

I have 15 CDPs to make this morning then upload the items. As soon as thats done I'll start converting the deck and thry plate girder spans into splines for you. Let me know about the Niagra Bridge.

I can also make one from the canyon picture. Do you want it road or rail?

Ben
 
Your 4-track deck plate girder spline (kuid2:210518:5073:1) and 4-track thru plate girder spline (kuid2:210518:5074:1) have been uploaded. Hope they are what you have in mind.

I'll look at the Niagra Bridge next.

Ben
 
Your 4-track deck plate girder spline (kuid2:210518:5073:1) and 4-track thru plate girder spline (kuid2:210518:5074:1) have been uploaded. Hope they are what you have in mind.

I'll look at the Niagra Bridge next.

Ben

The Niagara Bridge is a lot like what I wanted for the canyon bridge, so a 4 track spline version of it will be great!

As for the truss bridge, I have two ideas instead of that 1880's bridge...

truss_bridge3.jpg


1217_01_10---Salt-River-Southern-Pacific-Railroad-Bridge--Tempe--Arizona--USA_web.jpg


Will either one of these work?

Do you have any recommendations for a good modern urban bridge? An arch bridge type or something else?

Thanks again for doing this for me!
 
Hello Veristek.
First off welcome back.:wave:

The bridge in your second shot has been made which is very similar.
I have it in TRS2006. Take a look under bridges in the track section.

Cheers,
Adam
 
I just finished uploading two 4-track versions of my Niagra Bridge. One with a 100 ft deck plate girder on each end and one without. They are not splines. This type of bridge is rarely (if ever) used in multiples (like a spline).

Adam has answered the second pic. I made 3 similar splines but the are wood, not steel.

I've made several bridges similar to the first and could modify one or two to 4-tracks but they are fixed (not splines). It might be possible to modify one or two to 4-track splines but Trainz imposes a 18,000 (or so) poly limit per image file. A spline must consist of 3 image files only. A bridge this large normally needs many more then 3 image files to make and stay within the 18K image file poly limit. The config file assembles the complete item. I won't know until I try. Let me dig out the kuids for a few so you can take a peek at them.

Ben

EDIT (a little while later):
Look at:
1. Cincinatti Bridge (kuid2:210518:2292:1)
2. Nelson River Bridge (kuid2:210518:2291:1)
3. Phoughkeepsie Bridge (kuuid2:210518:2294:1)
4. Starrucca Viaduct (kuid2:210518:2290:1).

These may be convertable to 4-track splines.
 
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I like these:

Cincinatti Bridge (kuid2:210518:2292:1)
Phoughkeepsie Bridge (kuid2:210518:2294:1)

I have an idea how to overcome the 18,000 polycount limitation. Would it be possible to snap together multiple fixed bridge spans (the Niagara for example) to create even longer bridges? Snap-on like how tracks snap onto tunnels or bridges, or double tracks snap onto each other, stuff like that.

Would that be a workable solution?

By the way, when I went to look up the bridges you already made and uploaded, they don't show up on the DLS. I copied and pasted your exact KUID you gave into the search function, then I put the search mode to "KUID's". The new bridges don't show up- I get "no downloads found". Is there a waiting period or something?
 
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You can (carefully) connect two Niagra spans with a very short section of invisible track but remember - this design bridge is never used that way. It has to do with the forces on the bridge. its designed to spread the weight downward and outward toward the ends which press up against rock walls. Putting two or more in line would cause each to put additional stress on the other almost ceretainly to the detriment of all (in other words all would probably fail and collapse). Kinda hard on pasengers and gets the dispatcher very mad, lol.

I'm not certain the "snap" idea would solve the problem but then I've never made a "fixed track" part. I suspect the downside would be they would not be height-adjustable. Fixed track parts are not. They depends on the ground height underneath.

The new items are not on the DLS yet. They must go thru Aurans approval process which can take up to a week tho they might show up tommorrow (ya never know).

Will look at the Cincinatti and Poughkeepsie Bridges in a little while.

Ben

EDIT: I just finished uploading a 4-track spline version of the Cincinatti Bridge. NOTE! This is a long spline (basic iteration = 1560 ft). The center section repeats in 600 ft increments. Any useage over the minimum will be longer then a single baseboard. Looks pretty good if I do say so my self (but I'm a little biased, lol).

EDIT (again): The DPG and TPG splines got rejected (typo). One of these years I'll learn how to type, lol. Both have been corrected and re-uploaded.
 
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I just finished uploading a 4 track version of my Poughkeepsie Bridge but it is not a spline. A spline can have only 3 parts and the center (repeating) section would have had far too many polys to work (sorry).

Anthing else you want 4-tracked? (within reason, lol).

Ben
 
Thanks!

I was wondering if you know of any good suggestions for a post-modern urban bridge? What post-modern bridges are you willing to make?

Just one post-modern bridge will do. Again, thanks for the bridge building!
 
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