4K resolution monitors

bendorsey

Bridge-n-trestle builder
Hi Folks:

Anyone running one of these new 4K monitors with Trainz?

I'm wondering if the higher resolution is worth the extra bucks and are there any special requirements or problems with Trainz on a 4K monitor.

Thanks,

Ben
 
1920 by 1080 is roughly 2,000,000 pixels, the 4k monitors are roughly 8,000,000+ pixels. So you'll need roughly four times the processing power to get the same frame rates. The top of the line new nVidia Pascal GPUs might just be able to handle it.

Cheerio John
 
Hi John:

What about using multiple video cards? I heard they were almost a necessity with those 4K monitors.

Ben
 
Hi John:

What about using multiple video cards? I heard they were almost a necessity with those 4K monitors.

Ben

I don't know if TANE supports them. TANE likes a GTX 980 on a conventional monitor so four GTX 980 GPUs? You'd lose processing power as you have to manage the load. This is really bleeding edge stuff for TANE I'd hold off until we see a bit more about the Pascal GPUs.

Cheerio John
 
I was talking to a Trainzer this morning who has used dual GPU's for years and is currently getting around 120 FPS with T:ANE. Yes - I have heard T:ANE doesn't support multi-GPU's so I wonder how he is he getting 120 FPS? I don't think you can get that high a frame rate with a single Titan X or Z GPU. As for multi-GPU support - considering the large load T:ANE puts on any GPU it would seem to me to be a very worthwhile addition to T:ANE'S capability.

I looked into the Pascal GPU after you mentioned them above. From what little I can understand (note the emphasis on little, lol) it should run about twice as fast as a Titan but with less video RAM (8 Gb as opposed to 12 Gb). 12 Gb is probably overkill anyway.

One thing I noticed was there will be a change in the power connector so I wonder if they can directly replace older GPU's.

In any case I have about 4 months to hope my old computer hangs together before buying the new one. Perhaps the Pascal's will be available by then.

Thanks for the info,

Ben
 
I was talking to a Trainzer this morning who has used dual GPU's for years and is currently getting around 120 FPS with T:ANE. Yes - I have heard T:ANE doesn't support multi-GPU's so I wonder how he is he getting 120 FPS? I don't think you can get that high a frame rate with a single Titan X or Z GPU. As for multi-GPU support - considering the large load T:ANE puts on any GPU it would seem to me to be a very worthwhile addition to T:ANE'S capability.

I looked into the Pascal GPU after you mentioned them above. From what little I can understand (note the emphasis on little, lol) it should run about twice as fast as a Titan but with less video RAM (8 Gb as opposed to 12 Gb). 12 Gb is probably overkill anyway.

One thing I noticed was there will be a change in the power connector so I wonder if they can directly replace older GPU's.

In any case I have about 4 months to hope my old computer hangs together before buying the new one. Perhaps the Pascal's will be available by then.

Thanks for the info,

Ben

Basically its the way that the memory is connected until now it sort of passes down a bus but with Pascal its connected in 3D so you can get much much wider bandwidth into the processors and that has always been a bottleneck with computers since Adam was a lad. AMD latest current GPUs are using a similar technique but the rest of their GPU isn't quite so sophisticated. It's taken about five years to get this stuff working by the way.

It should just drop into the PCE slot and I can't see them needing a new connector on the end but most of the high end power supplies have modular connectors these days so it shouldn't be a major problem.

If you have an i7 already you could just drop in a GTX 980 or whatever the fastest is this week. Watch the case size and possibly the power supply though. TANE puts much less work to the CPU, my system is six years old with a GTX 980 runs fine, I have an SSD for TANE these days but it doesn't make that much difference to the frames per second.

The 120 frames per second in TANE, I wonder what his shadow settings are?

Cheerio John
 
My current computer is a 6 year old Alienware Aurora desktop. I had no idea what GPU it was using so looked it up (I still have the original invoice - I'm a packrat, lol) - its a single ATI Radeon HD5970, 2Gb GDDR5 (whatever that is - this is not my area of expertise). I assume that's a generation or more old. I can't see upgrading a 6 year old computer (and must admit to having a very large itch to get one of the new Alienware Area-51's). They have a 1500 watt power supply which I'm quite certain is pretty much a necessity.

I read about that 3d connection with the Pascal but didn't quite understand it - now I see. Sort of like a serial buss compared to a parallel buss (tho that's probably a large oversimplification).

The real question is what will they cost? A Titan isn't exactly cheap and these would almost have to be more expensive.

Ben
 
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gpu-hierarchy,4388.html

The AMD 5970 is still up there.

according to ATI the 5970 has a TDP of 294 Watts

nVidia Titan X TDP 250W http://www.anandtech.com/show/9059/the-nvidia-geforce-gtx-titan-x-review


nVidia has done a very nice job on the power consumption. Basically performance depends on the time it takes an electron or group of them to travel from point A to point B. So if you can move point A and B closer together you get better performance for free. The way chips are made is imagine a photocopier now where the dark lines are on the paper that's the bit that conducts electricity.

So if you put the lines together the chip runs faster. Too close and the electrons jump from one track to another. They used to use infrared but to get the lines closer they moved into first visible spectrum, then UV because you can get better resolution.

Taking this further the first chips were two dimensional ie flat paper, if we add layers together and cross connect the layers we can shorten the distance. Ie its faster. Add enough layers and you get a three dimensional chip and that’s Pascal.

If we can redesign the chip to use lower voltages it use less power. Unfortunately reliability suffers, but we can design round that as well.

So using less power means less heat, this is extremely good for computers. Besides meaning the old power supply will do.

Nvidia have a program that helps game designers such as N3V get the most out of their GPUs. TANE currently runs better on Maxwell GPUs surprise surprise.

If you download Belarc that will tell you what the CPU is. You really want an i7 for the caches nothing else, the speed of it is practically irrelevant.

If you’re feeling rich I’d dump a GTX 980 or better nVidia in the box and see how it does. I think you’ll be happy with the results.

I'm running a GTX980 on a 650 watt power supply, its fine. I've seen them on a 500 watt as well although that's a little less than I'd like to use. Running TANE with a meter on the PC the entire PC is drawing just over 100 watts so a 1500 watt power supply is a bit over kill.

Cheerio John
 
My current computer is a 6 year old Alienware Aurora desktop. I had no idea what GPU it was using so looked it up (I still have the original invoice - I'm a packrat, lol) - its a single ATI Radeon HD5970, 2Gb GDDR5 (whatever that is - this is not my area of expertise). I assume that's a generation or more old. I can't see upgrading a 6 year old computer (and must admit to having a very large itch to get one of the new Alienware Area-51's). They have a 1500 watt power supply which I'm quite certain is pretty much a necessity.

I read about that 3d connection with the Pascal but didn't quite understand it - now I see. Sort of like a serial buss compared to a parallel buss (tho that's probably a large oversimplification).

The real question is what will they cost? A Titan isn't exactly cheap and these would almost have to be more expensive.

Ben

A 5970 is a dual card solution, a pair of underclocked 5870's essentially, these date back to roughly 2009. This in mind if we're correct in assuming that trainz does not support multi GPU configurations then one of the GPU cores on the card is not being used. Nothing you can do on this front however, just opt for a single GPU option in future.

Having an excessively large PSU is not a pro, it's more a con. A power supply is at it's most efficient when operating at 50% load. Barely pushing a power supply's rated capacity will see you well below the area of peak efficiency, which is less than ideal for your electricity bill. It makes more sense to select a PSU that slightly exceeds your needs, not completely blows them out of the water.

Any Pascal desktop spec GPU's will still be using PCI-Express, don't fret about it.

Nvidia Pascal and AMD Vega/Polaris will take advantage of die shrinks from 28nm to 14nm FIN-FET. Moore's law logic in mind, these should be cheaper to produce with larger transistor counts, so don't expect them to cost much if any more than what's currently available.

Jack
 
Wow - you gents have definitely given me a lot to think about for the next 4 months. Hum - that's around August (my birthday month). A new computer for my birthday does have a nice ring to it. One of those from-me to-me presents (the best kind, lol).

Thanks again guys,

Ben
 
Ben,

From practical experience I know it is possible to run TANE on a 4k 28" monitor using a 3 year old GTX 670 2GB card which is running 2 other standard resolution 24 inch monitors at the same time.

Frame rates are good enough to give a smooth picture with no stuttering - exactly what you get depends, of course, on what you are driving or working on.

When the price of 4k monitors comes down and effectively they replace the current standard, then buy one. At the present time they don't (in my opinion) have enough to offer to warrant the extra money they are commanding.

Chris
 
There is one thing a new motherboard would give you, USB 3.0 so external backups etc would be much faster.

Cheerio John
 
Hi Chris:

Whoa - that's very encouraging to hear.

My choice is between a Dell 34 inch curved monitor with built in sound or a Dell 32 inch flat 4K monitor without built-in sound. Currently there's a $500 difference between the two. Sound isn't really that important to me other then needing it to test things I make with sound effects before uploading to the DLS. Having it built into the monitor would be convenient but I can always use the sound system that came with my old computer if I opt for the 4K one. I only turn it on when testing anyway. All those key clicks, pops, whistles, belches and burps drive me nuts (well nuttier then I already am). With TRS2004 I was saying "OM" in my sleep, lol.

John:

Yes - there are a number of things I could do to upgrade my current computer but I'm not really interested in that. I want a brand spanking new one with all the (good) bells and whistles. While cost is a factor its not the ruling criteria (performance is). It is a consideration of course if the cost gets to high. I've allocated about $10K to it tho at the moment I think it will run closer to $9K.

Ben
 
Ben,

In my opinion curved screens are just a gimmick and as for built in sound, personally I don't rate it and would advise you looked at (& listened to if possible) some decent Logitech speakers if you have room for them. If you really want to go for 4k then go for the biggest practical screen, you can go way up the sizes and still get a quality picture. 4K is really overkill on my 28" monitor, but you live & learn :).

I don't know what PC prices are like in the USA but, whatever, 10K (or even 9K) sounds like a very health budget. Be aware of the 'law of diminishing returns' which applies to most things like PCs, high end cameras and their ilk - up to a point each extra feature adds value for money, when that point is reached each extra feature costs a fortune and delivers very little of any use except maybe more 'street cred' !

Chris
 
By the way the new thing in monitors / TVs is HDR, broadly speaking its richer colours but it might be worth researching before buying a 4K monitor, it is 4k as well.

Cheerio John
 
These 4k monitors are great, however, the issue will be text size. At 1980 x 1080 resolution, the text is about the size of an ant foot print and about the size of an paramecium on the mini-map. At 4k it will become worse...

John
 
These 4k monitors are great, however, the issue will be text size. At 1980 x 1080 resolution, the text is about the size of an ant foot print and about the size of an paramecium on the mini-map. At 4k it will become worse...

Text scaling within your OS. It's not perfect in Windows, but that's what it's for...
 
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