TS2010 Session making competition - feedback

JamesMoody

Trainz Team
As mentioned in the competition announcement thread, we have received no entries for our session making competition. We'd like to get some feedback as to why. Understanding why may assist us not only in writing better competitions, but also in improving the session creation procedure...

Did you want to enter, but found something in the competition rules that discouraged you from entering?

Or maybe you got as far as starting a session, but discovered something in the process of creating a session was either too hard, or too time consuming, or not adequately explained?

Whatever the reasons, we'd love to hear them.
 
Just a friendly suggestion here, but maybe limiting the routes to which the sessions could be applied was a little restrictive? Possibly allowing new routes that weren't included in the list, with the proper arrangements of course, and that were both well made and challenging would increase the incentive to enter.

Cheers

AJ
 
If one of the objectives was to create a realistic session, then for the UK guys at least, the built-in only content rule was a little too restrictive IMO.

That said, I have done a session for the ECML, but I ddn't have enough time to get it tested to an acceptable standard. I uploaded it on the 31st anyway, but it didn't get approved until late on the 1st (AUS time), so I haven't proceeded with it.

There also seems to be some upload issues currently.

Testing on the built-in routes is time consuming due to the route size. I'm not sure 1 month of "free time" is enough to do it justice, given the high standard of session requested.

Also the thought of uploading something that is not finished, and then tweaking for a month after, seemed strange from my perspective at least. By the time it was finished, it would have been downloaded and played by anyone interested. I would rather have had longer for development and less for tweaking.

Finally the techniques for using rules in session creation are not easily found. There was a TRS2006 guide to session creation, but is that available to anyone who doesn't have the TRS2006 disk?

Cheers
Charles
 
A couple of other things I struggled with:

- AI trains ignoring speed limits added to the session layer.
- Geting some form of randomness into the session.

regards
C
 
Personally I thought about it, but as I have almost zero US railroad knowledge, there was only one route I could look at, and to do the ECML justice would have just taken too long.

Paul

p.s. It was still a great idea for a competition - there are so many great routes out there with not even a basic session by their creators...
 
No entries? That's a shame... I actually wondered about this last night.

I actually thought about giving it a try, but it would have been my first ever real session, and I am currently in a trying and learning process. This may also be the case for others, even more experienced surveyorers, as TS2010 have new features that need to be thoroughly tried and tested to get optimal results. Maybe if the same contest was announced in a year from now....

I do not think it should be neccessary to add more layouts to the contest, as the whole point was to get quality sessions for these new TS2010-layouts, which really is a good idea.
 
I fully agree with stovepipe's remarks.
I understand and grudgingly ;) approve the "built-in only" rule, but this leaves very little content to use, since the competitors were also "invited" to use only recent content capable of showing Trainz at its best. Since I started to make a session for the "Detroit Connecting Railroad", I needed contemporay US rolling stock: the choice is restricted to the various SD-40s, a few (seven) 50ft boxcars with no roof walkway and and half a dozen other cars. I added Ocemy's magnificent B-36 since there are no high-quality US switchers.

Rules and driver orders are another type of content that could have made session designer lives easier: I suggested to allow using the ones available on the DLS, provided they work in 2010 with no need for correction, but no answer came from Auran.

Finally, we were invited to make sessions with high re-playability, not the usual "drive train XXX from A to B". That's fine, but if a session has many possible variables, it is necessary to test it thoroughly to verify that everything runs smooth: in one of the first beta versions, every industry on the DCon (except the scrap dealer) generated 0 to 6 cars: sometimes, the player finished switching with a single move, the he had nothing else to do except waiting half an hour before the transfer job arrived, or he could end up with a train so long that no track of the Ferry Yard could hold it. As anyone that ever published knows all too well, a session always runs flawlessy... until you release it :D .

I feel that complex sessions like the ones we were asked to make require a longer time to fully develop and - especially - to test them. In my opinion, the sessions, when they are uploaded to the DLS, shall have to be 99% complete and "ready-to-play". Tweaking should be limited to just that: small adjustments, requiring only a few days.

My proposal, therefore, is to extend the time limit a until 10th December, so as to have the sessions ready as a Christmas gift for the Trainz Community.

stovepipe said:
Finally the techniques for using rules in session creation are not easily found. There was a TRS2006 guide to session creation, but is that available to anyone who doesn't have the TRS2006 disk?

You can use the "Session & Rules Manual" for 2006: 99% of its content is still valid in 2010. The only technique I was unable to grasp was the use of the achievement system: Trainz Online does not provide much information, and I have unable to understand its intricacies by examining the default sessions.

stovepipe said:
- Getting some form of randomness into the session.

I found the "Un-portal" rule very useful for that: in my session, i used just to add randomness in two ways:

1) the transfer job (one of eight possible different consists bringing new cars) comes out of a trackmark turned portal;

2) when the session starts (and the screen is occupied by a HTML display that will keep the player busy during session initialisation), several consists (made of a switcher and some freight cars) come out from other trackmarks used as portals and proceed to the industry spurs; the switcher decouples and disappears (remove train order).
 
What happened to the session by Hert called Never-Ending Shunt Operation kuid:106007:1144?

I downloaded it into TS2010 thinking it was an entry since it used a built-in route, Springfield Industrial District Railroad and all built-in content. It is really a nice session and I thought it stood a good chance of winning. It is no longer on the DLS.

William
 
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There are some very beautiful American (and Chinese) locos built in with empty number-boards. Useing the portals, these number-boards are staying empty, if the not built-in rule "number this loco" can't be used. That's why it was impossible, that an American session with portals could win the contest. :)

Regards

Swordfish

PS: Adding with Service Pack 4 some necessary content as built-in and the next session-contest will be a success. ;)
 
Hi guys,

Just some initial replies and comments-

.. limiting the routes to which the sessions could be applied was a little restrictive?

It's definitely restrictive in the "you must do X" sense. It's not so restrictive in a genre sense- there's a moderate range of styles and locales represented.


Possibly allowing new routes that weren't included in the list, with the proper arrangements of course, and that were both well made and challenging would increase the incentive to enter.

There are a few reasons we didn't do this. I'm open to suggestions on how we could relax this restriction while keeping the following in mind:

* We want the sessions to showcase TS2010. This means that the route should properly utilise long draw distances, SpeedTree, and native mode.

* We don't want the end-users to have to download large amounts of content to be able to use the session.

* We don't want to turn this into a route-building competition. We feel that this would exclude too many potential entrants and would require a lot more work from entrants.


I uploaded it on the 31st anyway, but it didn't get approved until late on the 1st (AUS time), so I haven't proceeded with it.

We allowed a grace period here but I haven't seen any qualifying sessions go up. Could you specify which DLS item you're referring to?


Also the thought of uploading something that is not finished, and then tweaking for a month after, seemed strange from my perspective at least

We didn't want to be in a position where people were putting a lot of effort into a session which didn't meet one of the competition requirements. We also wanted the judges to have some input into the session development process as we usually have specific concerns that the average amateur developer would probably not consider until too late. The easiest way to solve this is for the judges to vet the sessions prior to completion.

You're right that this could lead to some people playing the session before it was completed, but appropriate disclaimers in the description of the session (and perhaps an appropriate splash screen) could easily resolve that.


Finally the techniques for using rules in session creation are not easily found. There was a TRS2006 guide to session creation, but is that available to anyone who doesn't have the TRS2006 disk?

A fair comment. I'll look into this.


- AI trains ignoring speed limits added to the session layer.

I'm not sure that I follow this remark. AI trains should obey speed limits. Are you aware of a reproducible bug with this behaviour?


- Geting some form of randomness into the session.

This was a recommendation, not a requirement. It's certainly possible to do, and some others here have discussed some of the possible approaches, but it's not necessarily suitable for everyone.


.. I have almost zero US railroad knowledge..

It's worth considering that there was no requirement for prototypical operation. That's not to say we are looking for a sloppily-made session, but there are probably alternatives to a pure prototypical driving simulation that could have been worthwhile. In the distant past, I seem to remember somebody even made a push-cart racing scenario :)


I actually thought about giving it a try, but it would have been my first ever real session, and I am currently in a trying and learning process.

Ironically, had you have given it a try, you probably would have won! Something to think about next time. Assuming that you won't have a chance because somebody else is always better can be a mistake.


Rules and driver orders are another type of content that could have made session designer lives easier: I suggested to allow using the ones available on the DLS, provided they work in 2010 with no need for correction, but no answer came from Auran.

Unfortunately your post came very late and nobody else spoke up in support of your proposed change, despite my invitation to do so. We will certainly keep your comments in mind for the future, as the request seems quite reasonable.


As anyone that ever published knows all too well, a session always runs flawlessy... until you release it

Very true- and this is a good example of why we had an extra month allowed for corrections.


My proposal, therefore, is to extend the time limit a until 10th December, so as to have the sessions ready as a Christmas gift for the Trainz Community.

If we were to consider reopening the competition, we'd need to know that people were going to take it seriously.


There are some very beautiful American (and Chinese) locos built in with empty number-boards. Useing the portals, these number-boards are staying empty, if the not built-in rule "number this loco" can't be used. That's why it was impossible, that an American session with portals could win the contest.

I'm not sure that I can follow your remarks here. What have the number-boards got to do with the competition?


You really expected any serious entry with this set of rules?

Indeed we do- the rules were designed to fair for everyone, and we feel that the prize is reasonable. Are you just trolling, or did you have some actual feedback?

kind regards,

chris
 
What happened to the session by Hert called Never-Ending Shunt Operation kuid:106007:1144?

I downloaded it into TS2010 thinking it was an entry since it used a built-in route, Springfield Industrial District Railroad and all built-in content. It is really a nice session and I thought it stood a good chance of winning. It is no longer on the DLS.

William

It was supposed to be for the contest. I sent a PM to James Moody but haven't heard anything back. Glad you like it, I think it might be the SP3 bug because it doesnt appear on the DLS for me either. And my entry was approved on the 21st Oct.

hert:wave:
 
It was supposed to be for the contest. I sent a PM to James Moody but haven't heard anything back. Glad you like it, I think it might be the SP3 bug because it doesnt appear on the DLS for me either. And my entry was approved on the 21st Oct.

We're not seeing this on the DLS website, but are able to see it in CM. We're investigating what's going on there and will keep you posted.

chris
 
Unfortunately, we have not received any qualifying submissions, nor any requests for time extension. Assuming we have not missed any entries[1], this means no-one has entered the competition. With no entrants, we cannot award prizes.
We are rather disappointed with this, and would like to get some feedback on what we can improve for our future competitions.
James Moody
The competition... The concept was great. The prize money seemed generous. Conditions, well they seemed pretty simple to follow. So as you ask James, what the heavens went so wrong then???
Well, after speaking too (& corresponding with) some "old hand Trainzers" over the last 18 - 24 months, I know that some of them (not all) still have very sticky tastes in their mouths about Auran's last competition. Most of us "old hands" know and realize that it was very difficult times for Auran back during the "Fury debacle" and that if a Chinese company hadn't stepped in and put 3 mil (plus) into the new Auran/NV3, Auran would have probably gone to the wall.

I commend OWNERS, management (& staff) for digging themselves out of such a large deep hole at the time...

So my question to you James is a simple one; Do you think that some Trainz'ers where put off entering this competition because of Auran/NV3 flippant attitude with the last competition???

It's a shame that the last competition left such a stick taste in so many Trainz'ers mouths. Particularly the loyal "old original Trainz'ers" and all those that entered that competition. I been told that some put a lot of effort into their entry. (note; I wasn't an entrant)...

I personally thought it was very arrogant of Auran to keep ignoring regular forum request for information about the competition and who the "prize winners" where.
In the end it appeared that Auran's attitude towards this competition was "if we ignore it for long enough, it will go away".

It's still not to late for Auran/NV3 to put that "wrong" right. My suggestion; Offer all those that entered that competition something for free; TS2009 - TS2010 - TC3 - a Blue Comet, or a couple of Diesels from JointRail. (ANYTHING, doesn't really matter what it is, just offer them something for their efforts). Surely NV3 can now afford to do that !!!

Here in NZ we have a chap that started a very small appliance shop and in only a few years managed to turned that company into a large National chain of Appliance Superstores.
How did he do it? Well it was simple. He used just one simple slogan in all the company's advertising; That was; "IT'S THE PUTTING RIGHT THAT COUNTS"
Meaning simply, if you have a problem with anything you buy from us, we'll put it right. - (for the record, his name was L.V. Martin).
My two pennies worth...
Cheers, Mac...
 
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Well, after speaking too (& corresponding with) some "old hand Trainzers" over the last 18 - 24 months, I know that some of them (not all) still have very sticky tastes in their mouths about Auran's last competition.

From the little I've heard, that was indeed very unfortunate for all involved.


..Auran would have probably gone to the wall.

Strictly speaking, it did. Auran hasn't existed as a company for quite some time. Thankfully for all of us here, N3V decided to keep the Trainz project going independently of Auran.


I personally thought it was very arrogant of Auran to keep ignoring regular forum request for information about the competition and who the "prize winners" where.

While I can't say anything to directly excuse Auran's behaviour, it's worth noting that, if I understand the timeline correctly, Auran was in the process of going under about then and it's likely that there was nobody on staff who was even aware of the competition, let alone tasked to respond to posts about it.

I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done to rectify things at this late stage. I doubt that we have any meaningful records relating to competitions run by Auran. I'll pass on the concerns to the boss and see if he's got any ideas.

kind regards,

chris
 
You want the truth -- you can't ...

I downloaded the "Never-Ending Shunt ... " and, although Content Manager told me I had all the dependencies, when I went to run the session I got the bright orange light in the bottom right of the screen. At that stage I must confess I was not sufficiently motivated to sort out the problem.
_____

Hi James and Chris --

You are seeking feedback.

I have absolutely no issues with the rules or the evaluation criteria. They seem reasonable and appropriate.

I've probably done as many sessions as anybody else. But in all honesty, I feel as if I've got to the stage where I don't want to do any more sessions for my routes that came with TS2010. And without in any way wanting to denigrate any of the routes by other authors, I'm not all that interested in them.

What does interest me are the routes I've uploaded since the release of TS2010. I think that these push the game play just a little bit further than I though was possible when you called for expressions of interest for routes for inclusion in TS2010.

So if it was allowed I'd gladly work up a session or two for the new routes - but for this:
  • The session should either provide clear-cut “win” and “loss” conditions, or some meaningful form of scoring in order that the player can gauge their own progress and success.
and
  • The inclusion of novel gameplay elements or a novel scoring system is considered beneficial.
I've never been at all interested in any scoring system or "Well done, what a good job" message at the end of a session.

For me a session is to do a set task. If the task is achieved there is a sense of satisfaction. If not, try again.

My sessions allow a multitude of ways of achieving the outcome. The challenge in my sessions is to do it as well as possible (where "well" includes least time, minimising switching movements, thinking ahead, not colliding into an AI train, ... - a little bit like a game of chess) and to do it better next time.

So while the prizes are extremely attractive I decide to give it a miss.

Phil
 
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I feel as if I've got to the stage where I don't want to do any more sessions for my routes that came with TS2010.

That's completely fair, but I think you're rather the exception there ;-)



My sessions allow a multitude of ways of achieving the outcome. The challenge in my sessions is to do it as well as possible (where "well" includes least time

That's a scoring system.


minimising switching movements

That's a scoring system.


.. thinking ahead, not colliding into an AI train, ...

That's an outright failure case for many types of session. Failure cases are desirable, but so is a final "success" case. There are exceptions - for example, a completely open-ended session - but we wanted to avoid "here are some trains, now go do whatever you like with no further interaction from us" type sessions. That's not to say that these are bad, but they're not what we're looking for here.

Another example of a scoring system might simply be a display of the resources at a specific location, where the gameplay involves transporting resources around the route between assorted industries in order to produce the desired final goods. This could be open-ended, or could have a definite goal after which the session tells you that you've won and offers to return you to the menu.

keep the feedback coming,

chris
 
I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done to rectify things at this late stage. I doubt that we have any meaningful records relating to competitions run by Auran. I'll pass on the concerns to the boss and see if he's got any ideas. kind regards, chris

Chris,
Many thanks for replying to my post. Some of those that submitted routes for the TC competition can be found in this thread. - http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=16758&highlight=trainz+classic+competition - (it's worth reading Tony Hilliam's post in the thread dated; July 18th, 2008)...
- http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=24516&highlight=TRAINZ+CLASSIC+competition -

We really appreciate you having a chat with the big boss to see if anything can be done. Some small token gesture to the 17 entrants would go along way in a lot of Trainz'ers eye's...

Kia Ora Bro,
Over this side of the ditch, a lot of Trainz'ers would feel like it would help NV3 restore some of it's "mana"... For those that don't live in the land of the long white cloud, "mana" means; creditability, status, great prestige and character... - Thanks Chris.
Cheers, Mac...
 
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Hello WindWalkr

From my experience it would be very helpful if this driver command( scripts) and rules would be builtin:

post message, wait for message and clear, wait for message, commWithTTable, wait until time, couple at trackmark, wait until hour, waitx

Inputtable, recourse verify rule, portaltimetable rule

About scoring i wrote some words in this thread

Scores in TS10


regards
celje
 
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