Looking for help with TransDEM and Google Earth maps.

Hi, all.

I fired up TransDEM to restart my MBTA Green Line trolley / subway system in Boston, Massachusetts. My original project was wiped out due to a computer meltdown, and I'm finally motivated enough to get back into the route building asoect.

My original project wasn't exactly prototypical when it came to routes, so for my second attempt, I thought I'd use Google Earth maps to map the various branches of the Green Line. The Green Line has 4 branches, the B, C, D, and E branches that go for several miles each throughout Boston. So you can imagine, I'll need a lot of Google Earth'ing to get it all down pat.

My big question about TransDEM and Google Earth is this. I remember seeing a few screenshots of Google Earth images being overlaid on a baseboard, then the modeler places tracks and roads right where the Google Earth tracks and roads are. This leads me to the questions themselves.

1. How do I get that overlay layer onto the baseboard, then erase it all when I have all the tracks, roads, buildings, etc. finished and laid down in surveyor mode?

2. The TransDEM tutorial says that Google Earth images work with Trainz's 1 pizel per 10 meters (or something like that), making it impossible for really zoomed in Google Earth images to work well. I need a zoom of approximately 100 - 200 meters from the surface in Google Earth to clearly see and trace the winding Green Line tracks in the ROW between the two roads on either side, plus also some street running on a boulevard. How do I get TransDEM and Google Earth to work with this kind of close zoom-in so I can do the necessary tracing?

3. Finally, how do I merge all these Google Earth images seamlessly and efficiently? I probably will need hundreds of these 100 - 200 meter zoom-up images to map out a whole subway branch through winding roads and avenues in Surveyor mode.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated!

Hello Veristek...

First, can you use Topo maps, for the detail, and where significant line changes(ie. no route), use Google Earth images?

Your direction is OK, but your method, is to create UTM tiles for your route, that are added automatically, following the tutorials in TransDEM TrainzEdition(TrainzDEM). Make screenshots in Google Earth, at 2 kilometers above the terrain, and insert a named place-mark, for reference.

The UTM tiles, can be seen in surveyor, by using Wire-frame Mode, and details are viewed directly overhead, where you edit track, also added using TrainzDEM.

When you finish all the textures, you remove the UTM tiles, that makes it easier to load.

Hi mate.

First question is have you bought TransDem yet?
From your post, when you talk about not being able to get the images onto the baseboards, it sounds like you either haven't read the TrandsDem tutorials, or you're thinking of a different program or method.

The third possibility is that you do have TransDem, and that you are just a little confused by the methods used.
If this is the case, don't worry, it's easy when you get into it.

I've just used TransDem to geo-reference 871 google earth pics which were taken at 500m above, and then produce all the Dem terrain for the route, as well as over 400 1000x1000m basemaps which covers all the trackwork.

If it is TransDem you're talking about, then I would suggest popping over to the UKTrainz forums and asking geophil for advice.

This thread, with the help of the Mods, will now be moved to the Payware forum.

Smiley.

backyard said:

First, can you use Topo maps, for the detail, and where significant line changes(ie. no route), use Google Earth images?

Your direction is OK, but your method, is to create UTM tiles for your route, that are added automatically, following the tutorials in TransDEM TrainzEdition(TrainzDEM). Make screenshots in Google Earth, at 2 kilometers above the terrain, and insert a named place-mark, for reference.

The UTM tiles, can be seen in surveyor, by using Wire-frame Mode, and details are viewed directly overhead, where you edit track, also added using TrainzDEM.

When you finish all the textures, you remove the UTM tiles, that makes it easier to load.

Click to expand...

Yes, I do have the TransDEM program. I understand the tutorials and how to do the Google Earth maps, but my questions are mainly concerned with zoom level, detail level, and merging them because I read in the tutorial that 1:5000 scale or "lower" numbers like 1:1000 won't work with maps because 1 pixel = 10 meters or something, which is hard-coded into Trainz I think. And the zoom levels I'm talking about, 100 - 200 meters out, are probably in that 1:1000 - 1:5000 range I think.

I dunno about topographical maps. I chose Google Earth because it clearly shows and traces the subway / trolley routes as they go street-running through downtown Boston.

At 2 kilometers zoom-out on Google Earth, I can't see the trolley tracks on the streets, and the streets become blurred. Is there any way to get the close up detail (100 - 200 meters out) I need to clearly see the trolley tracks on both the ROW between two seperate avenues, and the actual street running when the tracks start running right on top of the streets themselves?

Hence these TransDEM questions.

I used 500m zoom in Google Earth for the whole route, mainly because it is such a large route, but for stations and other places of interest where I needed to see a bit more detail, I took snaps in Google Earth at 100m zoom.

I exported the whole route from TransDem using the normal settings, and then exported the higher resolution pics for the detailed areas afterwards, which would only overwrite the UTM tiles I needed it to.
You will need to tick the 2048x2048 box in the TransDem export dialog box to get this to work, and you'll also need to make sure your graphics card can handle textures of this size.

It makes a big difference in those areas where you need to see more, and if you're not doing a very large route, you might be able to do it at the high resolution for the whole route.

(If I'd done my whole route at the higher resolution, my 871 pics would have become around 4300+ pics. :hehe: )

HTH,
Smiley.

Here's a few screenshots to help you guys understand my question...



Street running at 100 meter zoom resolution (see the number in the bottom right of the screenshot) in Google Earth.



Street running at 1 kilometer zoom resolution (see the number in the bottom right of the screenshot) in Google Earth.



ROW running at 100 meter zoom resolution (see the number in the bottom right of the screenshot) in Google Earth.



ROW running at 1 kilometer zoom resolution (see the number in the bottom right of the screenshot) in Google Earth.

See why I need the 100 meter resolution? The train tracks, street-running tracks, and ROW's are almost invisible / unrecongizable in the 1 kilometer resolution. Could someone clear this up for me? Will the 1 kilometer resolution turn into 100 meter resolution in Surveyor, or will the 1 kilometer resolution remain that way with blurred / unrecongizable tracks and ROW's?

EDIT: The Green Line trolley / subway I'm trying to build... Three of the four branches (B branch to Boston College, C branch to Clevland Circle, and E Branch to Heath Street) are roughly 2 - 5 miles long from the tunnel entrances to the end of the surface route. The D branch (Riverside) is probably 10 - 15 miles long of straight track and few stops kinda like a commuter rail route. The underground portion of the subway will be more challenging, but I don't need TransDEM for the underground rote.

Veristek said:

Here's a few screenshots to help you guys understand my question.................................(see the number in the bottom right of the screenshot) in Google Earth.

See why I need the 100 meter resolution?

Click to expand...

Lol, we already understood your question, and seeing as we use both TransDem and Google Earth, we're well aware of what the number in the bottom-right means. :hehe:

Have you read my post?
I have illustrated that I had the same requirements from TransDem and Google Earth, and I've demonstrated how I got both low resolution 500m (the number in the bottom-right) pics and higher resolution 100m pics into Trainz with TransDem.

If, as you say, you know how to use TransDem generally, and you just want to know how to export higher resolution pics into Trainz for detailed work, then my previous post has all the information you need, because right at this moment I'm laying track using a UTM tile with a 2048x2048 texture which was captured at 100m.

As far as I can tell, this is what you're after.

Have fun,
Smiley.

Whoops, I missed your post. I was putting up screenshots with Fraps, and didn't notice you posted the info you had while I was making mine. I'll try what you suggested and see how it goes.

Sorry for the confusion.

Ok, I got the E-Line branch done on Google Earth. It only took 5 "squares" at 1000 meter resolution to cover. I've transformed them into UTM, have "geo-references using Google Earth" and stuff set up.

Now I'm a bit stumped. How do I merge these 5 UTM / geo-ref maps and THEN make them into one overlay covering something like a 5 x 5 baseboard layout (5000 x 5000 meters) in Trainz Surveyor? I got stumped on this my first time around with TransDEM a few months back.

Ok, some of what I'm about to say you've probably already done, but at least we won't have missed out any steps, and it could be useful to others.

Here's how I use TransDem and Google Earth to get the area I want mapped:

:: First you set your zoom level in Google Earth to what you want (in your case 1000m)

:: You move to the start of your area in Google Earth, and place a Placemark (for this example, let's name it 1)

:: You then hit CTRL+S to save the kmz file (1.kmz), and then CTRL+ALT+S to save the jpeg screenshot (1.jpg).

:: Move the area in Google Earth along the railway line for just under a screens width or height and repeat the above step, increasing the name of the files to 2, 3, 4, etc.

:: When you have all the area you need in Google Earth mapped and saved this way, start up TransDem.

:: In TransDEM, use the following sequence for EVERY jpeg/kmz file you've saved recently:

1. Hit SHIFT+O (Open a previously saved jpg file (first one would be 1.jpg)
2. Hit ALT+R (Open the corresponding saved placemark file (1.kmz)
3. Hit SHIFT+U (Converts the coordinates to UTM. Progress bar is at the bottom of screen)
4. Hit ALT+S (Saves the image as a png file, along with a corresponding trf file)

As said above, you need to do this for EVERY screenshot you took in Google Earth.

:: The next stage is to use TransDem to create your route. Load up your Dem data for your area, and click on "load georeferenced raster map" and load each trf file that you saved, one by one.

:: Make sure that "fixed 1000m Grid Width" is ticked in the View menu. This is important because the grid represents the 1000x1000m basemaps that will be created.

:: Now zoom in closer to the area of your map. If you can't see where your maps are in TransDem, use the view menu to "hide" the DEM, and you should then see your maps).

:: Once your maps are clearly visible, along with the 1000m grid, you are ready to export them to Trainz.

:: To do this, you will first need to use the mouse to draw a selection around the 1000x1000m tiles that surround your layout. So even if one of the grid tiles only contains a tiny piece of your route, you will need to surround that whole tile if you want it in the game. Now go to the Trainz menu and select "Export & Create UTM Tiles". From there, you will be able to export the Tiles that will sit on the baseboard. If you need high resolution pics to be exported, then you will need to tick 2048x2048 in the export dialogue.

That's about it.
The good thing about it is that once you've exported the land, you can keep going back and exporting the tiles and track without having to export the land again.

Please Note: I'm sure that there are quicker or better ways to do the above, like the new map tiles and path features of TransDem, but I had already captured and processed all my images in Google Earth when I bought TransDem, so I stick to this method because it works so well for me.

Have fun,
Smiley.

Smileyman said:

Hi mate.


This thread, with the help of the Mods, will now be moved to the Payware forum.

Click to expand...

I don't see a need to move this thread to payware - TransDem isn't freeware, but neither is it an in-game payware asset. 3DS, Photoshop etc are not freeware either. The thread is still related to surveyor.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention anyway

Hi again,

I managed to merge the several 1000m x 1000m Google Earth images into a single "route" map. I also tried doing "create new DEM", but then I got a bit stumped.

Here's a screenshot of where I am right now...



As you can see, my map is roughly 4000m x 4000 m, but I ran into two issues I'm not sure how to fix.

1. How do I make all these 1000m x 1000m pink square outlines as shown in my map screenshot be full instead of being 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 tile size, etc.? When I try to export to UTM, it says only 2 tiles x 3 tiles can be exported, whereas my map obviously covers more than 2 x 3 tiles.

I try making a 4000m x 4000m rectangular selection tool to cover the 4 x 4 tiles I do need, but then it says "does not match DEM parameters" or something like that. What do I need to do to get all this just right?

2. When I try to export, the map drop down menu at the bottom of the Export UTM options / process menu is blank. Plus the "Okay" button is greyed out. What am I missing here?

3. I don't understand the 50m (or higher / lower) on the "New DEM" options. When I try 1000m, the blue DEM overlay weirds out and doesn't cover my map. When I try 50m, the blue overlay does cover my map, but doesn't cover the fringe edges. When I try 10m or so, it does cover the fringe edges. What is this variable meter thing and what does it do anyway?

I apologize if I sound dumb with TransDEM, but I'm trying to learn how to use it. Once I'm able to know how to export and stuff and know what I'm doing wrong, I can make a million maps with TransDEM no problem.

Natvander said:

I don't see a need to move this thread to payware - TransDem isn't freeware, but neither is it an in-game payware asset. 3DS, Photoshop etc are not freeware either. The thread is still related to surveyor.

Click to expand...

What?
I don't remember anyone saying that Payware had to be an in-game asset, and someone obviously considers TransDem Payware because all discussions on it are in it's own thread in the Payware forum, but whatever.
Consistency has never been in abundance here.

Personally, I think TransDem is a great piece of software, and deserves all the exposure it can get.

Veristek,

It sounds like you are trying to export 4 tiles to an area that doesn't have land in Trainz.
I actually haven't had TransDem that long, and I did go through the things you're going through now.

To do it my way, you'll need to find the Dem data for the area that you're building (check both tutorials for links to Dem data), and when you find it, download it and load it into TransDem.
Then load in all your pics, which will be overlayed onto the Dem image.

Now select the area that you want, plus a couple of tile areas extra around the edge for safety, export the Dem terrain first, select the UTM tiles and then export them.

If you can't get the hang of it, I'll post a more detailed explanation with pics tomorrow, as it's getting late here now.

Smiley.

I didn't like the resolution of the 1000m zoom-out, so I went with a 500m zoom-out instead, which doubled the number of "tiles" I have to geo-reference to each other and such.

I'm a bit confused- I read somewhere in the tutorial that TransDEM can't export more than 25 tiles of Google Earth maps. Is it referring to "tiles" (of varying resolution, like 25 tiles of 100m zoom-out, or 500m zoom-out, or whatever) to geo-reference, or 25 of the 1000m x 1000m "baseboards" (the pink outlined tiles)?

Do I have to open a map from Trainz? I mean, do I have to create a new Trainz surveyor route with a blank baseboard, then add 25 blank baseboards around that initial blank baseboard? Then save it as Surveyor route, then will that appear in TransDEM?

Or am I missing something completely here map-wise? I'm trying to make the Google Earth merged map (as shown in my screenshot a couple posts above this one) THE map to export to Trainz, then do the wireframe thing to overlay the tracks and roads of Boston for these trolley routes.

See why I'm a bit confused here?

Somewhere...

Get up on it...where is somewhere...?

Exporting Google Maps as UTM tiles, at less that 2km, is a heavy load on TranzDEM, let alone on your computer, for Trainz.

All the map, should be found using WMS topo maps from USGS first. Anything else, is Google territory.

Have you finished a tutorial?

To open TRS/Surveyor and not find your named map, means you go back, find out what you did wrong, correct that, and try again.

Try printing out the TransDEM & TrainzDEM tutorials, two sides per page, fit it into a binder(what...twenty bucks?), study with your route in mind and complete this project!

And then, do more of your dream routes!

@Veristek:

Just to make sure you are aware of the second manual, titled "TransDEM Trainz Edition" (file name TransDEMTrainz_engl.pdf). You can access it from the TransDEM main menu: Trainz | Help on Trainz Exporter.

The "Muengsten" tutorial starts on page 34. It explains all the export steps, including the production of UTM tiles.


Yes, there is an export limit for UTM tiles. But this is a limit per single export call. It is mainly to prevent unintentional mass production of image files which can take a lot of space on your disk. You can significantly raise this limit (which is about 25 by default indeed) by drawing a few vector lines in TransDEM to mark the course of your route. These polylines will act as a route filter during tile generation. TransDEM will create only those UTM tiles which are close to the route. With a vector route active the raised limit is a few hundred tiles.

Thanks Dr. Roland, I was sweating this out, awaiting your never ending help!

There is no limits of fun, when you export and create, using TranzDEM!

Okay, I managed to get the export to work, but I ran into a few more problems. The map does open in Trainz surveyor with the overlay working and wireframe view and everything. The problems are mainly related to blurriness and funny scaling and stuff.

1. When exporting, it says some baseboards were "not found. Skipping baseboard." even though these "skipped" 1000m x 1000m square *has* Google Earth map images in them, with geo-referenced points and everything. What gives?

2. When I opened the new map in my Trainz Surveyor, it looked so dark and blurry. I could barely make out the train tracks, and when I tried laying down the tracks, it didn't seem right. The tracks I laid were too big for the tracks in the map below me in Wireframe mode.

3. Part of the map was cut off even though I drew the boundary rectangle to include the whole map. I made the "new DEM" at 50 meter resolution, and then it covered the whole map. I saved the DEM as the same file name as my map which is "MBTA E-Line"

4. While I exported, I tried the 2048 x 2048 pixel option because I thought it'd give me a much better resolution of the route, but apparently it was still blurry. I used 500m Google Earth resolution for the images. Do I have to go even closer to like 250m or 100m resolution? Or do I go to 1000m or 2000m resolution? I'm a bit lost now.

Am I missing something here? How can I make the tracks and roads and stuff brighter, sharper, and more accurate size-wise? So that the map in Surveyor can have this kind of resolution...



Any ideas or help?

Veristek said:

1. When exporting, it says some baseboards were "not found. Skipping baseboard." even though these "skipped" 1000m x 1000m square *has* Google Earth map images in them, with geo-referenced points and everything. What gives?

Click to expand...

In the export dialogue, you can choose whether to have current UTM tiles overwritten or skipped when you export the tiles again, and I've noticed a bug that it says "skipped" even when you have told it to override the current UTM tiles.
If you've selected to "override but keep kuid" and it still says skipped, don't worry as it's still overriding the UTM tile with the newest export, but giving you the message that it's skipping the tile.

Veristek said:

2. When I opened the new map in my Trainz Surveyor, it looked so dark and blurry. I could barely make out the train tracks, and when I tried laying down the tracks, it didn't seem right. The tracks I laid were too big for the tracks in the map below me in Wireframe mode.

Click to expand...

Obviously, the painted terrain is going to look blotchy, as it can only paint with a resolution of 10m pixels, but from what you say it sounds like you're talking about UTM tiles being blurred and out of scale, which shouldn't happen.

Let's check your image preparation from Google Earth, and please make sure to check that you are doing EVERY one of these steps:

GETTING IMAGES AND DATA FROM GOOGLE EARTH -------------------------

• In Google Earth, you find that area that you want, and zoom in to the required level (it doesn't matter what zoom you use, because if you do the following steps correctly, TransDem will scale them correctly in Trainz).
• You place a Placemark and name it something specific (say MBTA1)
• You hit CTRL+S to save the placemark (MBTA1.kmz)
• You hit CTRL+ALT+S to save the jpeg image (MBTA1.jpg)
• You move the view in Google Maps just under a screens width, and do it all again, and continue to do it for the whole length of your route.
• When you've done that, you move onto TransDem

USING TRANSDEM TO CONVERT ALL IMAGES AND DATA TO UTM 1000x1000m --------------------------------------------

• Boot up TransDem
• Hit SHIFT+O to load in your first raster map (MBTA1.jpg)
• Now we need to load the placemark data, so we hit ALT+R and load the placemark (MBTA1.kmz)
• Now we need to convert the purple grid into UTM so that they are 1000mx1000m. To do this, press SHIFT+U and watch the little progress bar at the bottom of the screen.
• When that finishes, hit ALT+S to save 2 files, MBTA1_georef.png and MBTA1_georef.trf
• Do this for every screenshot and placemark you saved in the first part before continuing
• NOW you're ready to start exporting!

USING TRANSDEM TO EXPORT TO TRAINZ -------------------------------------

• Exit TransDem and start it again to get a clean empty version running, and load your DEM data
• Now load all your raster maps in one by one by pressing ALT+O
• When you've loaded ALL your maps in, select an area BIGGER than your maps area, and export the terrain into a new named map (MBTATEST say). The reason it needs to be bigger than your maps is that the maps are 1000x1000m and the Trainz baseboards are 720x720m so you need to make sure there's enough land to place the UTM tiles on when you export them next. Just give yourself 2 or 3 baseboards extra on each edge to be safe. You can always delete them in Trainz later on.
• With the terrain exported as a new map under the name MBTATEST, you can now export the UTM tiles straight to that map.
• IMPORTANT: Make sure that View/Fixed 1000m Grid Width is ticked!!!!
• Now zoom in to the start of your mapped area, until you can see the 1000m grid.
• Select around 5 or 6 of these (personal preference),and click the "creates UTM tile objects..." button and in the export dialogue make sure the route selected in the drop-down box is MBTATEST, and export. Watch the progress bar at the bottom.
• When that's complete, select the next area of 5 or 6 tiles and do it again, repeating the process until all the UTM tiles you want are exported. Don't worry if you see the "skipped" message again during export, as it probably means you've selected a tile that you've already exported, but it will just overwrite that one again, so no problem.

If you haven't missed out any of those steps then the tiles will be exported at the correct scale.

Veristek said:

3. Part of the map was cut off even though I drew the boundary rectangle to include the whole map. I made the "new DEM" at 50 meter resolution, and then it covered the whole map. I saved the DEM as the same file name as my map which is "MBTA E-Line"

Click to expand...

See my answer above, with reference to making sure you give yourself enough Trainz baseboards around the edge.

Veristek said:

4. While I exported, I tried the 2048 x 2048 pixel option because I thought it'd give me a much better resolution of the route, but apparently it was still blurry. I used 500m Google Earth resolution for the images. Do I have to go even closer to like 250m or 100m resolution? Or do I go to 1000m or 2000m resolution? I'm a bit lost now.

Click to expand...

The 2048x2048 option does give much better resolution (but use it sparingly), but your problem is related to your exporting of the tiles, so clicking that won't help. As said above, it doesn't matter what zoom level you use in Google Earth. If you export the placemark information correctly, TransDem takes all that into account and scales and positions the tiles correctly.

Veristek said:

Am I missing something here? How can I make the tracks and roads and stuff brighter, sharper, and more accurate size-wise? So that the map in Surveyor can have this kind of resolution

Click to expand...

You're definitely missing something.
You mention map again. If you're referring to the painted landscape, then it cannot have a high resolution, as it is limited to the brush size of Trainz and the colour palette that Roland included in TransDem.
You can only get high resolution images on the 1000x1000m tiles that are placed over the top.

I don't think it can be explained any better than that.
Remember, you can't skip any of those early procedures with the images, as they are what TransDem uses for position and scale.

Good luck,
Smiley.

Thanks Smileyman .... a great read!! :wave:

Ishie