Appalled and Dismayed

The point I made was that companies going out of business will generally lead to the rapid death of their games, DRM'ed or not. Nothing you've said here really contradicts that- the supposed examples you gave are still in business.

Ahem, I mentioned Atari, Midway games, as well as Starcraft, SimCity (which is no longer Maxis, BTW), etc. No, those makers are not in business. I'll repeat my statement from post #87, "Don't tell that to those of us who still play Starcraft, SimCity 2000/3000, and all the great MAME, INTV, Atari 2600 and Nintendo stuff, to name a few. Almost everything I own besides Trainz and FS is over 15-20 years old."

If you would like me to, I'd be more than happy to go through a list of games made by manufacturers and software companies no longer in business that I still play. I'll be a pretty long list, and compose nearly all I play besides Trainz, MSFS and Starcraft.

For the "emulators" examples, I'll take that as another point on my side- significant technical effort was necessary to make it possible for those games to be playable, probably quite in excess of what it would take to make a DRM'ed game play after the death of the owning company.

An 8-bit emulator isn't too difficult to write. Writing your own version of XP, probably a bit harder...just a guess...

In any case, if these technical abilities concern you, then why bother with the DRM in the first place, since it'll just be beaten?

Please don't try to put words into my mouth, especially when they're clearly not true.

Again, then why bother with the DRM if this isn't at least part of the reason? Save some development time, money, and customer anger and put that effort towards something that'll actually improve the game.

Disagree.

Disagree all you want, but that's what will happen and you know it. Also, I've advised you of that, not that the ongoing controversy of DRM over the last several years did not serve as adequate notice.

It's a reasonable assumption, if we're talking about emulators. Not true in all cases, but certainly true in most. The whole concept of "format shifting" is questionable at best.

No, it's not. Format shifting is quite legitimate. The specifics are what have not been fully-developed, but it's a perfectly legal tenet, at least in the U.S.

Do too much of that here and you will be on the receiving end of a ban. We're all for free discussion, but we're not at all for people deliberately attacking our customer-base for the sole purpose of hurting us or our customers.

Great! I suggest you do just that. That'll help raise awareness about this issue and to irritate your customers further. Thanks in advance for the publicity, and also for showing N3V's true colors!

No, I'm demonstrating that the same effect will happen with or without DRM. You can't argue "DRM leads to evil" and then ignore that the same evil exists in the complete absence of DRM.

Um, no, we're still discussing DRM, not other marketing strategies. Besides, your argument is effectively, "Microsoft screwed Apple so why shouldn't we be able to screw you?" Good luck with that.

And for that reason (among many others) I am glad that Apple embraced DRM.

I'm sure you are. It allows companies like yours to do well at the expense of your customers. Great business model, in all seriousness. Not so great for customers, though...

Firstly, I don't think that Apple's DRM has much to do with the ability to move devices. You could perhaps argue this with their music (although that's available DRM-free these days) but the Apps would not be portable even if they were completely DRM-free.

Secondly, I disagree that it was all expense and no benefit. If it was purely at the consumer's expense, consumers would go elsewhere. Instead, a vast number of consumers have voted with their wallets to accept the DRM. There are clearly some benefits here to the users.

Unfortunately, the DRM makes porting to another platform pointless, assuming it can be done legally at all. That's a large part of what makes it so wonderful for providers like Apple, and so awful for their customers. Putting aside that some music is now available DRM-free, once you buy the DRMed music, you're often locked into the platform, UNLESS you're willing to lose your investment thus far, or unless the manufacturer was gracious enough to permit software on another one to play their content. That's the POINT of DRM.

If you can tell me what the benefit is to the end-user - if you can tell me why it's such a problem that people be allowed to take their purchased content to another platform, I'd be interested to hear it.

Uh.. no, not really. I can't agree with this. To demonstrate this point, you would have to show:

1. That it was possible for customers to move platforms in the absence of DRM;
2. That the addition of DRM specifically prohibited this capability.

1. Sure. Do you want to talk about Trainz or do you want to talk about other platforms? Let's talk about both:
a. Trainz - Non-authorized installers won't work post-SP1 e.g. Maria's Pass-X (just tested this.) It did pre-SP1.
b. non-Trainz - MP3, WAV, FLAC etc. are but a few examples of non-DRMed formats that can be played on any platform for which decoders exist.

2. I'd be glad to:
a. Trainz - Current DLC system locks out other installers.
b. non-Trainz - Microsoft PlaysForSure is only usable on Microsoft-approved platforms.

I'm have no need to justify DRM. I'm just pointing out that your anti-DRM argument is flawed.

Yet you've been doing just that for the last 5 posts.

Disagree.

You think there's a chance that Apple will relinquish their DRM controls to others? Uh, alrighty then...

I'm not "starting to understand" anything here. This is a very well-understood concept. Apple's walled garden approach does this very deliberately, and in many ways it's a good thing, and in some ways it's a bad thing. We all know this. It's up to personal opinion as whether you'd like to be inside of outside that garden. None of this is directly relevant to DRM. Case in point: Trainz does not implement a walled garden.

There is nothing good about Apple's approach as far as the consumer goes.

As for Trainz & N3V, and I choose not to be inside that garden. Which is why I never bought Railworks. And why I choose to nip in the bud the walls that N3V is building, by no longer supporting the product financially or and why I'm winding down making of new content for the DLS.

Nope. If we were in Apple's position, we might adopt their strategies. Maybe. I can certainly sympathise with why they do. But we're not in Apple's position, so to imply that N3V will act the way they do is disingenuous.

Perhaps you shouldn't have brought up the comparisons with Apple, let alone continued them over several posts. You pointed to Apple glowingly as to how effective DRM is as a component of marketing.

To backpedal now after making these glowing comparisons is what is disingenuous.
 
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Good Morning All...

I feel the forums really gone downhill recently. You've got people whinging about the product, then the mods are saying "I think you will find our product is fault free and amazing" and doing the corporate thing by constantly arguing against others viewpoints, and then those people are arguing against those and it just becomes a circular argument.


First, this really needs to be clarified. We're not saying it's perfect, but we are defending our actions. Considering we own these forums, and develop the software being attacked/'whined' about, this is quite a reasonable action. Yes, in many ways it will be a circular argument. But, at the same time, we really don't think it appropriate that just one side be shown...


@RRSignal
Do too much of that here and you will be on the receiving end of a ban. We're all for free discussion, but we're not at all for people deliberately attacking our customer-base for the sole purpose of hurting us or our customers.


Great! I suggest you do just that. That'll help raise awareness about this issue and to irritate your customers further. Thanks in advance for the publicity, and also for showing N3V's true colors!
On this, please read that again. You've specifically stated you'll "also encourage other community members to stop supporting N3V as well"; this is not something we will tolerate on the forums. We haven't previously, and we won't in the future.

That's not saying we won't allow discussion. But when you are specifically working to make sure we go out of business (that's what you are saying after all), well we really won't tolerate that.

It should be noted that Trainz itself has had a form of DRM since day at least Trainz 1.0. Specifically, it's had a serial number; which in turn requires you to register online to gain access to downloads. If you lose the serial number before you register, or your login details, or the business closes, you lose access to the online functions (including multiplayer, iTrainz/chat, DLS, etc). Granted, it's not an 'always online' function, but then we haven't implemented any 'always online' DRM into Trainz. The DLC system may require you to be online to verify your purchases every so often (I have yet to test this out myself), but it's still not an always online function. That's not to say it won't change in future, but at this stage there is no requirement to be always online.

We do expect it, and have done so for quite some time. However, it's not a requirement for Trainz itself.

Regards
 
It should be noted that Trainz itself has had a form of DRM since day at least Trainz 1.0. Specifically, it's had a serial number; which in turn requires you to register online to gain access to downloads. If you lose the serial number before you register, or your login details, or the business closes, you lose access to the online functions (including multiplayer, iTrainz/chat, DLS, etc). Granted, it's not an 'always online' function, but then we haven't implemented any 'always online' DRM into Trainz. The DLC system may require you to be online to verify your purchases every so often (I have yet to test this out myself), but it's still not an always online function. That's not to say it won't change in future, but at this stage there is no requirement to be always online.

The serial number, as far as the game goes, really does not fit within most modern definitions of DRM, and it's dubious, to say the least, whether it fits in historical definitions. It requires no involvement after purchase, which is the hallmark of modern DRM. Nor does lock the user into a particular use or distribution system, like the App Store, or N3V's "DLC Store" now does.

As for DLC, yes, it's never been an "always online" or even "sometimes online" situation, until the new DLC system was implemented. I've been running the Blue Comet on my offline Trainz installation since the day I bought it over two years ago without needing to go online - not even to install it. Ditto for Murchison2.

Now we need to maintain an internet connection just to use what we paid for, if only periodically. And all the performance problems related to that.

That's all the more reason not to buy DLC, future versions of Trainz itself or to patch TS12 to SP1.
 
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I uh, like Trainz and I'll uh, keep buying it and the DLC that interests me. Sue me RRSignal
 
I uh, like Trainz and I'll uh, keep buying it and the DLC that interests me. Sue me RRSignal

Why would I sue you? Even if I had grounds to do so, I wouldn't.

I'd rather laugh when the products you (or probably your parents) paid so much money for are rendered worthless either because N3V went out of business, because they changed their marketing strategy, or because they decided to ban your account like Steam or EA does.

Laughter is worth more than any amount of money.
 
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Well said RR, its sad day for Trainz, seen it coming for a while, they can try and gloss it up all they like, but a dog is dog.

The beginning of the end I reckon.

I'm totally happy with my TS10, I will stay there.

Cheers

Lots
 
To keep things short and sweet and avoid massive posts going in circles:

* You can't say "DRM causes this problem" when the same problem occurs in the absence of DRM.

* The point of (sensible) DRM is not to be foolproof, it's to discourage casual and 'accidental' piracy and help ensure that content creators have a sustainable business model.

* DRM does not suit everybody all of the time, but then, nothing does.

kind regards,

chris
 
.. Apple (big in Oz, not so much in the outside world (Android anyone?)).

Oh, they're big pretty much everywhere. That's not to say that there are not other alternatives, some of which we directly support. Like them or loathe them, but you have to admit that they have a large and successful market.


With the DRM that will/may be in place, If someone wanted to add more detail on a DLC route or extend the route (or maybe merge to another route), will this be possible or not.

Right at the moment, I believe you can:
* View the payware route in Surveyor.
* View the payware sessions in Surveyor.
* Create your own sessions, which allows the modification of pretty much everything except the terrain itself.


If not, could yourselves add a function that allows someone to clone the route for editing (and use for own use), but the export of CDP's of a cloned route be disabled so pirate copies can not be made? Just a thought.

It's a good thought, and is an area that we're constantly evaluating. We obviously want to make things as flexible as possible as long as it doesn't undo the fundamental protections offered to the creator. (Those being: that the content will have the best chance of actually working on a given client install, and that the content is not trivial to redistribute.)

kind regards,

chris
 
To keep things short and sweet and avoid massive posts going in circles:

* You can't say "DRM causes this problem" when the same problem occurs in the absence of DRM.

Sure I can. DRM is designed to cause the problem.

* The point of (sensible) DRM is not to be foolproof, it's to discourage casual and 'accidental' piracy and help ensure that content creators have a sustainable business model.

You don't need DRM, sensible or not. N3V is in a unique position to discourage piracy with the DLS alone.

Frankly, and I don't have a scientific basis for this besides observation, but I'd say the Trainz community is the most law-abiding consumer community I've seen, and even more law-abiding than many if not most business communities I've seen.

* DRM does not suit everybody all of the time, but then, nothing does.

Nope. And, the great thing about freedom from DRM is, I can take my money, my content, and what I've already purchased and never have to worry about DRM, dealing with N3V, etc. again, if I so choose. It's awesome, and I highly recommend it! :)

Unfortunately, the opposite no longer can be said now that new patches and versions of Trainz will be DRMed.
 
hmm. So your problem is that N3V want to make you register and patch through them and so they know that it's you who's patching?

Jamie
 
hmm. So your problem is that N3V want to make you register and patch through them and so they know that it's you who's patching?

Jamie

Um...no, not even close. Not only not in the same ballpark, not even on the same continent.

The issues have been discussed ad nauseum.
 
The situation is as it has always been. You evaluate the product taking all factors into consideration and you buy or you do not. N3V has done nothing illegal and the choice is theirs to make.
 
If the DRM for post purchase authentication of DLC purchases requires an occasional online connection, then the first thing N3V need to address is the constant re-downloading of the content.

That said, if you really want to see DRM taken to extreme levels of stupidity, take a look at what MS are proposing for their new Xbox - if you don't take it online at least once a day you will need to re-authenticate all your games.

The sad part about all this is that the majority of honest users lose out because of a small bunch of anarchists and pirates who see it as their right to copy and redistribute software free of charge. There needs to be a better way of countering this (and that goes not just for N3V but all software manufacturers) without hurting the decent folk who want to mod a route for their own amusement or not be tied to always authenticating online.
 
Hi

I can understand N3V wanting to protect their product but can someone tell me why I have to download the whole add on again when there have been a few alterations to it. As it takes me aproximately 1 hour to download 1 Gb it boils down to a lot of time just waiting for the download to complete.

I have had a number of issues with my SP1 install so last week I decided to wipe it all and patch onto a clean install. This meant that I had to download all my DLC content again which took over 5 hours. Since then it has updated the Murchison and S&C routes which took another 3 hours. Add this lot to the more than 7 hours that it took to add the DLC content to my original install (I had a couple of corrupted downloads) and you're looking at in excess of 15 hours just downloading DLC content.

If the add ons are no longer .ja files but are added to the database like normal cdp's then why can't any patches be much smaller downloads? I download very little from the internet generally apart from Trainz items but thank goodness I didn't go for capped broadband otherwise it would have taken months to download the DLC items that I have and if they are updated frequently I may not have been able to get them all.

In the past I've generally bought any of the DLC items that took my interest but because of this download issue I'll be unlikely to buy anything again unless I deem it as unmissable. I would think that anyone with capped broadband will have to take the same view so it is to be hoped that the savings from reduced piracy outweigh the losses of sales that are likely to come from this new system.

Regards

Brian
 
I also think there's an element of accessibility regarding DLCs here as well. With previous (pre-SP1) versions, it was very easy to end up not seeing any of the content simply by entering the wrong serial number into the installer. With the SP1 method, it's easier to check whether the serial number is valid as N3V's systems can tell you straight away if the serial is wrong when you enter it under Planet Auran > Serial Number, whereas previously it was left to the user to manually enter the serial number into Trainz and the DLC installer and having to perform an extended database repair in order to actually see the content.

Shane
 
I feel the forums really gone downhill recently. You've got people whinging about the product, then the mods are saying "I think you will find our product is fault free and amazing" and doing the corporate thing by constantly arguing against others viewpoints, and then those people are arguing against those and it just becomes a circular argument.

I wish I had a penny for the amount of times I've heard this on the trainz forum over the years.
 
'SimCity is being developed by EA’s Maxis Emeryville studio. Several key team members of past Maxis SimCity titles are back and will be working to make this the greatest SimCity yet.'

So, does that mean Railworks is a Microsoft product?
icon_rolleyes.gif
 
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