I fancy a new computer - thoughts?


The only users who absolutely need ECC memory are those who use the machine for “mission critical” work, certainly not for running games or for performance applications.


Lets go back to basics. The computer memory we use today is called dram or dynamic memory. On some of the early machines I worked on we used core memory or little circular magnets turn the power off and the memory stayed in the same state. Unfortunately it was very expensive to make and rather slow to access the memory. DRAM ismuch cheaper to make and has much faster access time.

DRAM basically is two plates separated by an insulator. You bung a charge or a group of electrons on one side and they stay there because of a positive charge on the other plate. Over time the electrons wonder off or drift through the insulator.

Unfortunately in Chemistry electrons are a little odd. When we talk about them floating around in orbits we actually simplify things a little. We can know where an electron is or we can know when it is but not the two together. We are unable to say where a particular electron is a point it time. However to know what state a memory cell is in we need to know both. We can use probability theory to say where we expect a group of them to be.

If we read DRAM fairly quickly there is a good chance that the state of the cell will be the same, leave it for a week and it will probably be zero. So we refresh the memory cells every x milliseconds. For the sake of argument every 30 milliseconds this gives us something like a 99.99999+% chance it will be in the same state. If we refresh more frequently the chance is higher if less frequently the chance is lower. The designers have a trade off between cost and performance.

When memory modules are tested as they come off the assembly line a certain level of error is permitted. Brand X cheaper memory parts are often those that got rejected on the first testing but passed on the second.

Note we are dealing in probabilities not certain states of memory such as on or off.

When we read the memory cell we count the number of electrons if for example it is designed to hold 10,000 electrons then if it has 8,000 or more its probably positive. If its less than a 1,000 its probably negative. Because electrons tend to drift around a memory cell that starts with zero electrons can end up with a few from its surroundings. Now if we have a bad connection in to the memory cell we might only be dumping 8,100 electrons in not 10,000 as long as we say if there is more than 8,000 we are safe provided we don't lose more than 100 electrons to the surroundings.

Problem is what happens if you have 4,500 electrons is that a one or a zero?

But 99.99999% of the time its OK. Yes for each memory cell but when you have 6*1024*1024*1024 memory cells (6 gigbytes) 99.99999% doesn't look quite as good only 99.99999% will be correct. Throw in you cycle the cell 1000/30 times per second then occasionally a memory cell will be read incorrectly. We can use probability theory to catch a large number of these by doing a cyclic redundancy check or CRC and adding this on the end of the memory cells. We've just put our cost up because now we need to store both the memory and a check digit. Note we are still using probability theory so if we get more errors in the block than the CRC can correct then we could still have an error. However the CRC will detect the vast majority of these.

So if you accept that any dram will have errors from time to time then logically if you need a level of confidence that the memory is working correctly it makes sense to use crc to protect you from the errors.

Cheerio John
 
Just because you are optimistic doesn't mean to say you are correct, and since I will be paying the bill I think my preferences carry some weight.

Just because you are optimistic doesn't mean to say you are correct, and since I will be paying the bill I think my preferences carry some weight.


Here you go John you can take your “I must use ECC memory” argument into one of these forums, knock yourself out -

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/

http://forums.anandtech.com/

http://hardforum.com/

Just be careful (I’m being honest here) don’t let on too much about your ECC memory fetish, you might be laughed out of the forum.
 
Here you go John you can take your “I must use ECC memory” argument into one of these forums, knock yourself out -

...

Just be careful (I’m being honest here) don’t let on too much about your ECC memory fetish, you might be laughed out of the forum.

The condescending attitude is really unnecessary. Maybe it's the right wing gun nut freedom-freak Tea Partier in me showing through, but John should have the right to buy what he wants without undue haranguing.

I agree that ECC is way overblown - it's not even used in many supposedly "mission-critical" applications - and that he's wasting money that would be better spent on bills or charity. But, silly me, I believe in that concept called freedom.

I have already explained how to get a bottom-of-the-barrel system to run nicely to many forum members. Some will take the advice, some won't.

I also have this "fetish" of running RAID 1 systems. I don't need it, I can live without it, but it makes me sleep a little better at night knowing that if a drive takes a dump I don't have to go through the whole rigamarole of setting up a new system from scratch.

You made a case, fine. As long as it's my and your tax dollars not at stake, leave it alone.
 
Hey Dan ... be nice , it's not real fair sending him to XS

I was thinking more about the Hardocp forums where the moderators don’t lock threads when someone’s feelings get hurt.

The condescending attitude is really unnecessary.

May be it’s not a condescending attitude, but the frustration showing through of leading the horse to water and then watching it dehydrate because it won’t drink.

There’s plenty of information out there just a mouse click away for John and his quest for ECC memory.
 
I was thinking more about the Hardocp forums where the moderators don’t lock threads when someone’s feelings get hurt.



May be it’s not a condescending attitude, but the frustration showing through of leading the horse to water and then watching it dehydrate because it won’t drink.

There’s plenty of information out there just a mouse click away for John and his quest for ECC memory.

I think you are missing something fundamental here. I do have a degree in Chemistry and a knowledge of how memory chips actually work and can interpret information about the subject. I don't have any need for some one who hasn't studied the subject to tell me what I need or don't need.

I have yet to see any suggestion from you about how to meet the requirement that I want a level of confidence that what is written into memory and what comes out are the same.

Posting on a gaming hardware forum where most people are hyping or trying to demonstrate their "superior" knowledge and don't have a good understanding of the issues doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I also get the impression you are out of your depth and instead of addressing stated requirements prefer to just tell people what to do.

Cheerio John
 
Many years ago I worked as a payroll programmer for the city of Birmingham in the UK. It was one of the largest monthly payrolls in the country. One day I made a change to add in a payroll deduction for a fishing club.

I made the change and we tested and it looked fine but I'd used an LDX instruction rather than a LDN instruction, one memory bit difference and one loaded in a value whilst the other loaded in a computer memory address.

The fishing club was only in one section, which wasn't part of the test suite. When I stored the value in the wrong place it overwrote the base tax code. About 98% of people after the fishing club section had been processed ended up with the wrong pay. In the UK at the time there was no annual tax form to catch errors such as this at the end of the year.

We caught it when the computer operators checked their pay on the printers and noticed it was wrong. I corrected the error and we reran the payroll but it did leave me a bit sensitive to the impact a single incorrect memory bit can have.

Cheerio John
 
I have yet to see any suggestion from you about how to meet the requirement that I want a level of confidence that what is written into memory and what comes out are the same.

We have yet to see any reason why with the applications (TS2010, Blender) you claim you are going to run would require or greatly benefit from ECC memory.


Posting on a gaming hardware forum where most people are hyping or trying to demonstrate their "superior" knowledge and don't have a good understanding of the issues doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

The forums I posted links to are not only “gaming hardware forums”. By the way you’re here in this forum because of TS2010, right, which is a game.

Sounds like you are making excuses now for not doing your own research.
 
We have yet to see any reason why with the applications (TS2010, Blender) you claim you are going to run would require or greatly benefit from ECC memory.




The forums I posted links to are not only “gaming hardware forums”. By the way you’re here in this forum because of TS2010, right, which is a game.

Sounds like you are making excuses now for not doing your own research.

So basically you are saying I'm unqualified to define my own requirements despite having worked with computers for more than forty years and defining requirements for large government procurements?

Thank you for your input.

Cheerio John
 
John,

I just went hardware shopping myself and built a pretty expensive rig, but then again I don't fancy a hardware upgrade for at least another 4 years if I can help it.

From what I was reading about the the i7 Bloomfield chips, and the supporting 1366 motherboards, there seems to be a lot of problems with them still at this stage. The motherboards seem to have a lot of timing issues related to them from what I can tell. I was a hardware technician for many years, and this is what many of the problems appear to be. The users complain a lot about unreliable start up issues, and other weird memory problems.

Part of the memory issues with these motherboards is due to, I think, the memory controller being on the chip. The chip is in this really large socket, and there seems to be issues with lots of bent pins. When I first read this, I was focusing on EVGA motherboards, their X58 Chipset-based boards which are for the Bloomfield chips. Then I saw similar issues with the ASUS boards as well.

So having said that, I opted for a slightly slower, but more stable P55 chipset and the Intel i7 1168 pin chip. These are relatively new, but the stability seems to be better.

Regarding an ECC motherboard, take a look at those offered by SuperMicro. They have some really nice 1366 motherboards that take the ECC memory and support both the Xeon 5500 series chips as well as the i7 Bloomfields. Their dual Xeon is about $500 US, but the chips are like $400 each. The board though handles up to 96 GB of ECC memory.

The cases vary in quality, and this time I went for the Corsair 800 series. It's a $299 US case, but the wire routing is awesome. There are also hotplug carriages, and lots of room to spare. The case is quite large, but in the name of good airflow, this is what I wanted.

My new video card is a single GTX 275 CO-OP from EVGA. They no longer sell the GTX295 new, and I didn't want the Recertified (used) board. Besides, it was bundled with the X58-based 4-way SLI, which is an expensive and huge board, which requires specially sized cases. Even the case I looked at wouldn't support this board because it's 13.58" x 10.75"

Check out www.newegg.com They have a Canadian branch as well. They have quite a selection of good deals, bundles, etc.

John
 
So basically you are saying I'm unqualified to define my own requirements despite having worked with computers for more than forty years and defining requirements for large government procurements?

Thank you for your input.

Cheerio John


Defining requirements for “large government procurements” and defining the requirements for running games are two different scenarios.
 
John,
From what I was reading about the the i7 Bloomfield chips, and the supporting 1366 motherboards, there seems to be a lot of problems with them still at this stage. The motherboards seem to have a lot of timing issues related to them from what I can tell.John


Lol, could you elaborate on these “problems”, what “timing issues” with the X58 chipset and the i7?

See any problems, I don’t -

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=59
 
Lol, could you elaborate on these “problems”, what “timing issues” with the X58 chipset and the i7?

See any problems, I don’t -

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=59http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=59http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=59

Here's a link to the customer reviews of the EVGA 4-way SLI X58-based chipset motherboards.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...deoOnlyMark=False&VendorMark=&Page=1&Keywords=

The X58 chipset is for the the i7 1366pin chips (Bloomfield). There are good features about the chip like built-in memory controller, which makes the memory buss faster, etc, but there are timing issues as well it appears. The boards only work with specific memory, can't handle certain power supplies, etc.

The issue appears to be the same with the ASUS equivelent as well.

Believe me when I was looking for a system upgrade, I seriously looked at these motherboards, but unfortunately there were too many bad reviews no matter what brand including Gigabyte, ASUS, EVGA, etc. It's too bad, because I had my heart set on one of these boards initially, but I didn't want the risk of DOA hardware and other problems that seem to plague them.

John
 
Here's a link to the customer reviews of the EVGA 4-way SLI X58-based chipset motherboards.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...deoOnlyMark=False&VendorMark=&Page=1&Keywords=

The X58 chipset is for the the i7 1366pin chips (Bloomfield). There are good features about the chip like built-in memory controller, which makes the memory buss faster, etc, but there are timing issues as well it appears. The boards only work with specific memory, can't handle certain power supplies, etc.

The issue appears to be the same with the ASUS equivelent as well.

Believe me when I was looking for a system upgrade, I seriously looked at these motherboards, but unfortunately there were too many bad reviews no matter what brand including Gigabyte, ASUS, EVGA, etc. It's too bad, because I had my heart set on one of these boards initially, but I didn't want the risk of DOA hardware and other problems that seem to plague them.

John


I seriously think that you should get you information from some other place other than the customer feedback comment section at Newegg.com.

From your description of the X58/socket 1336 platform is very apparent that you need to do a lot of reading.

There are no “timing issues” with the X58 chipsets and the socket 1156 CPU’s also have the memory controller on the die also so I don’t have any idea why you referenced this.

Again it looks like you need to do some research on the differences between the two chipsets/CPU’s and I’d skip Newegg.com as an information source, lol.
 
I don't normally go by customer reviews, but when there are over 400 such complaints, I begin to wonder.

I was the one that implied it was a timing issue. I was a hardware technician, actually an engineering technician that worked with hardware prototypes including PC motherboards, disk controllers, video circuits, power supplies, and other assorted hardware. When a circuit does not power up reliabily, this is usually, in 99.9999% of the cases due to timing issues. A motherboard receives at least two signals when starting up. They are sensed by the CPU and come from the CLK circuit and the power supply among other places. When the CPU does not receive a signal at the proper interval in its power-up cycle, it times out and will halt. If the motherboard starts up after being reset, or powered up more than once, than most likely it's a timing issue because the capacitors have had a chance to hold the charge from the previous power-up, and also because the clock is jarred into a known-good state.

Interesting enough in the past, I actually had a circuit that was bad until I placed an ocilloscope probe on it. The tiny 15pf value of the old Tektronix scope probe was enough to fix the problem. This issue was also apparent in a video circuit a worked on. The memory buffers were controlled through multiple parallel shift register chips, and there were issues with lines on the display. When a scope probe was placed on the CLK input, the problem went away. The easy fix was to issue an ECN and place a small capacitor of the same value. The real reason was due to a bad flipflop 74F74, but the company opted the easy way out instead of issuing a field retrofit for a chip replacement project.

As the processors become faster, the quality of the peripheral and supporting components has to be higher. In the retail category we're seeing for consumer-grade parts, I doubt that the quality, at least right now, isn there for reliable operation. Given that the parts get better over time, perhaps in a year or two after they enter the mainstream a bit, and are near end-of-life, then they will be more reliable. Until then, it's not always good to remain on the bleeding edge.

At this point in my life, I have little time to fart around with flaky hardware, and considering the amount of money this stuff costs, and the fact I am actually unemployed and going to college full-time again, I don't have the money to throw away on something that won't work right out of the box.

John
 
I don't normally go by customer reviews, but when there are over 400 such complaints, I begin to wonder.


That’s just it, look at who’s complaining and consider the source.

As far as the “timing problems” go (just like with any other chipset), unless you are using chit RAM to begin with and the memory timings are not set up properly in BIOS there are no issues, any “Intel” section of a hardware forum will confirm this.

As the processors become faster, the quality of the peripheral and supporting components has to be higher. In the retail category we're seeing for consumer-grade parts, I doubt that the quality, at least right now, isn there for reliable operation.


Asus and Gigabyte are probably the highest quality you’re going to get and more than enough quality to support “reliable operation”.
 
John,

I just went hardware shopping myself and built a pretty expensive rig, but then again I don't fancy a hardware upgrade for at least another 4 years if I can help it.

From what I was reading about the the i7 Bloomfield chips, and the supporting 1366 motherboards, there seems to be a lot of problems with them still at this stage. The motherboards seem to have a lot of timing issues related to them from what I can tell. I was a hardware technician for many years, and this is what many of the problems appear to be. The users complain a lot about unreliable start up issues, and other weird memory problems.

Part of the memory issues with these motherboards is due to, I think, the memory controller being on the chip. The chip is in this really large socket, and there seems to be issues with lots of bent pins. When I first read this, I was focusing on EVGA motherboards, their X58 Chipset-based boards which are for the Bloomfield chips. Then I saw similar issues with the ASUS boards as well.

So having said that, I opted for a slightly slower, but more stable P55 chipset and the Intel i7 1168 pin chip. These are relatively new, but the stability seems to be better.

Regarding an ECC motherboard, take a look at those offered by SuperMicro. They have some really nice 1366 motherboards that take the ECC memory and support both the Xeon 5500 series chips as well as the i7 Bloomfields. Their dual Xeon is about $500 US, but the chips are like $400 each. The board though handles up to 96 GB of ECC memory.

The cases vary in quality, and this time I went for the Corsair 800 series. It's a $299 US case, but the wire routing is awesome. There are also hotplug carriages, and lots of room to spare. The case is quite large, but in the name of good airflow, this is what I wanted.

My new video card is a single GTX 275 CO-OP from EVGA. They no longer sell the GTX295 new, and I didn't want the Recertified (used) board. Besides, it was bundled with the X58-based 4-way SLI, which is an expensive and huge board, which requires specially sized cases. Even the case I looked at wouldn't support this board because it's 13.58" x 10.75"

Check out www.newegg.com They have a Canadian branch as well. They have quite a selection of good deals, bundles, etc.

John

Newegg.ca doesn't carry the same range as newegg.com unfortunately. NCIX.com seems to carry a wider range in Canada. I like the idea of using newegg.ca but it's going to come down to finding one supplier and getting all the bits from them if I can. For example newegg.ca doesn't carry the xeon processor I'm currently thinking of.

There was an Intel workstation motherboard that looked interesting and would take the xeon processor and ecc memory. Intel should be on top of any timing issues since they supply both motherboards and the cpus.

The current machine is six years old, my first PC cost $4,000+, so like you I'm trying to get something solid that might even last a year or two. I'd forgotten the length of the video card can cause problems in some cases I'll have to double check that.

The version of Win 7 I have lying around only supports one cpu socket so it will probably be a single cpu socket motherboard.

Thank you things to think about and take into consideration.

I'm waiting to see a bit more about nVidia's new video card at the moment. That will flip the coin on AMD or Intel. Tomshardware have just done an article on an AMD based gaming system, given a 160 gig SSD that might be fast enough for Trainz and have ecc memory.

Many thanks

Cheerio John
 
I don't normally go by customer reviews, but when there are over 400 such complaints, I begin to wonder.

I was the one that implied it was a timing issue. I was a hardware technician, actually an engineering technician that worked with hardware prototypes including PC motherboards, disk controllers, video circuits, power supplies, and other assorted hardware. When a circuit does not power up reliabily, this is usually, in 99.9999% of the cases due to timing issues. A motherboard receives at least two signals when starting up. They are sensed by the CPU and come from the CLK circuit and the power supply among other places. When the CPU does not receive a signal at the proper interval in its power-up cycle, it times out and will halt. If the motherboard starts up after being reset, or powered up more than once, than most likely it's a timing issue because the capacitors have had a chance to hold the charge from the previous power-up, and also because the clock is jarred into a known-good state.

Interesting enough in the past, I actually had a circuit that was bad until I placed an ocilloscope probe on it. The tiny 15pf value of the old Tektronix scope probe was enough to fix the problem. This issue was also apparent in a video circuit a worked on. The memory buffers were controlled through multiple parallel shift register chips, and there were issues with lines on the display. When a scope probe was placed on the CLK input, the problem went away. The easy fix was to issue an ECN and place a small capacitor of the same value. The real reason was due to a bad flipflop 74F74, but the company opted the easy way out instead of issuing a field retrofit for a chip replacement project.

As the processors become faster, the quality of the peripheral and supporting components has to be higher. In the retail category we're seeing for consumer-grade parts, I doubt that the quality, at least right now, isn there for reliable operation. Given that the parts get better over time, perhaps in a year or two after they enter the mainstream a bit, and are near end-of-life, then they will be more reliable. Until then, it's not always good to remain on the bleeding edge.

At this point in my life, I have little time to fart around with flaky hardware, and considering the amount of money this stuff costs, and the fact I am actually unemployed and going to college full-time again, I don't have the money to throw away on something that won't work right out of the box.

John

Now if only you lived in Canada I could bribe you to put it together for me. I wouldn't bother with too much technical detail when replying djt from what I've seen if it doesn't fit his mantra he just ignores it.

The bleeding edge comment is true. That's a consideration on the workstation motherboards they tend not to be bleeding edge and to me I want this thing to work reliably out of the box.

Thanks once again and best of luck at college.

Cheerio John
 
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